MCU: Ruby Hale vs Black Widow

Ruby Hale

Natasha Romanoff

Natasha will be switching places with Daisy.

• Natasha is unarmed
• Ruby is armed
• Same morals from the fight applies
• Win by KO/Death

What are Ruby feats have not seen Shield lately

Ruby, if she tags Nat with her disk. H2h could go either way.

My gut says Natasha: at least comparable training (I feel like hers would be superior), way more experienced

Based very strictly on feats, Nat's probably inferior to Daisy at this point, so there's a solid argument to be made for Ruby, especially considering Ruby's gear advantage. However, logically, Daisy shouldn't be any better than Widow, and Ruby was only even at best with Daisy

In her first appearance she cut off Yo-Yo's arms - Link

She fought Carl Creel on pretty even terms

And she has fought Daisy

I would assume Nat

Widow's skill is on par or a bit above Skye's, and the latter seemed clearly Ruby's superior when it came to fighting.

Ruby has very good durability, comfortably above Widow, however while she may be able to take a lot of punishment from Natasha I think the other will go for locks and grappling since her fighting style revolves more around that, and thus Ruby's durability won't be a very big problem. Her striking power though, will be. Ruby strikes hard enough to stagger and even throw around a regular Creel, that's speaks volumes to me, every time Widow gets hit she's gonna feel it, and blocking may not be an option for her, specially since her opponent also wields a bladed weapon.

The question is, can Nat get Ruby in a winning lock before Ruby gets too many clean hits? Well, against Daisy Ruby only got 1 clean hit, or 2 if you count the PIS cutting of Daisy's hand. I don't think that would be enough to put Widow down, but it will hurt, and it was a very brief fight.

I think its very close, 50/50 leaning a bit on Ruby due to her stats and my not thinking Widow has good durability, I'm not sold on this though.

Ruby wins due to a weapon advantage. She has a weapon and Natasha doesn’t.

Ruby wins solidly. Her feats are superior.

@arcus1

Daisy is dead even with Ward imo, who is superior to Widow by both feats and statements. I don't see a single reason to put Widow above Ruby in combat besides the usual "she is an Avenger and is in the films" logic that's been shot down numerous times. Daisy has better feats, and Widow doesn't even have any great statements to fall back on. I don't get the conception that Natasha should "logically" be better than the elite AoS agents in combat. They've repeatedly proven themselves as her equals...or in some cases, her superiors.

Daisy is better than Natasha. I really don't think there is any room for debate there.

Well, the simple fact that Nat's held as the standard for elite agents indicates in and of itself that she's just as elite as May/Ward. If she wasn't elite, then why would being compared to her be anything noteworthy? The title "Black Widow" is something Natasha earned by being the best the Red Room had to offer, and that was before she even joined SHIELD

Logically, Nat was raised as a human weapon, someone like Daisy only started training 5 years ago. Obviously Daisy's come a long way in that time, which is why I never said Nat was better than Daisy. I just said that logically, Daisy shouldn't be much better than Natasha.

Comparing Nat and Ruby, both of them were raised as weapons, but Nat's background seems to have been even more intensive, from what I can tell. Add onto that the fact that Nat's got way more field experience than Ruby, and on paper, it would seem that Natasha should be superior in every way. Feat-wise, Ruby's scaling off of Daisy makes it closer, which is why I said we could definitely argue for Ruby winning.

Hmm this is a good one. Thanks for the tag @angeljax.

I think this is close, but I am probably gonna give this to Natasha. We know that Widow is CLOSE to May, but not quite on her level. I would still put May decisively above Daisy, and Ruby was essentially on her level, if not slightly below.

@the_magister@arcus1@vacanus

Do you think Ruby's chakram makes a difference regardless of the outcome? Most would say Natasha doesn't have enough pure h2h feats or ones impressive enough to compete with mid/high-tier fighters.

Probably Ruby. I'd have Daisy above Widow, but probably also above Ruby. What decides this one way or the other is Ruby's gear, which gives her the win IMO.

@angeljax: The chakram certainly helps, but if she gets gear, Natasha should also get gear, and if that's the case, this isn't even close.

Also, I would say she has good H2H feats, just not against anyone we can directly compare to Daisy/Ruby. But I think Natasha should be above Daisy, and below May, or at the VERY LEAST on Daisy's level. So this is definitely a close fight, but I think Natasha edges it out.

Ruby

Chakram could make a difference, helps her counter Widow's overall superior standing

Widow's lack of feats is a problem when arguing for her beating high-tier fighters, but she's got enough in conjunction with her in-universe standing to compete for sure

@arcus1: Isn't it probable that the reason she is used as the standard as opposed to say May, Bobbi, Ward, or some other agent is because she's the most recognizable by the time of agents of shield. She is a member of the avengers and while it probably speaks to her skill if people were compared to say Grant Ward or Mockingbird few people would know who they were because they aren't legends as much.

Sure, from a writing perspective, they used Widow's established status to try to establish the new agents like May

In-universe, though, Widow wouldn't have gotten to that legendary status if she wasn't elite

By feats I'd probably still lean Widow for now.

@arcus1: i mean she stood with captain america, iron man and Thor and fought aliens even in universe telling somebody about her makes it 100% chance she'll be known. May and coulson are well known as far as shield is concerned but Widow even in universe is an avenger

While I get that, you've also argued that the AoS agents' accolades don't all necessary pertain to cqc skill when threads pit them against Netflix ninjas. Why wouldn't we apply this same standard to Widow? Her being legendary has almost nothing to do with her being as skilled in martial arts as May or even Daisy.

Widow even stated she is more of a spy than a soldier, etc.

Because Widow has the same kind of job as May/Daisy (well, she did).

With the ninjas, statements about the agents position in SHIELD don't mean as much because the ninjas aren't even involved with SHIELD, so it's not like those statements are taking the ninjas into consideration. When comparing Widow to other SHIELD agents though, it matters more

Sure, Widow's not as much of a soldier in the strictest sense. She's not Captain America. But then again, neither are the other elite agents Widow leans towards a spy-based approach, but it doesn't mean she's not an exceptional fighter. From what we've seen of the Red Room, combat is one of the primary things they train for. May having more black belts than Widow wouldn't be anything worth mentioning if Widow wasn't an extremely accomplished fighter in her own right

It seems like you're arguing for Widow being a tier or so below Daisy, do you really think that makes sense from an on-paper perspective?

I wouldn't write Daisy to beat Widow, but that's less due to the fact that Daisy can't do it and more due to the fact that there's a quota to fill because "she's Black Widow," since that is how a lot of general audience members think.

I think if we go by the consensus that seems to have formed that Daisy is comfortably on the May/Ward tier, then yes. She is above Natasha. Not by much, but by enough to secure a win over her in h2h.

@the_magister:

On paper though, disregarding feats

Widow was raised from childhood in a program designed to mold her into a living weapon, extensive training in h2h (among other skills). After graduating top of her "class," she went on to become a world renowned assassin, then a world-renowned SHIELD agent, then an Avenger. Meanwhile, Daisy didn't even start training until after Widow joined the Avengers. I don't see the on-paper logic to put Widow decisively below Daisy

On-paper, Widow was essentially equivalent to Ruby when she graduated the Red Room (if anything, Red Room was a more intensive program from what I can tell): lots of talent and raw skill, but lacking in experience. While Ruby still lacks experience, Widow's had over a decade as an assassin, agent, and Avenger.

Ruby takes it.

On-paper battles are the big thing nowadays, lol. There's no way Ruby or Daisy are actually Widow level in universe, nor should they be. If there were ever a crossover, she'd probably be depicted on a level with somebody like Sharon Carter.

@rogueshadow: Magister likes doing on-paper battles, so I like using that logic when debating him, lol

I wouldn't go that far

I understand the in-universe logic/implications of where Widow stands in comparison to the agents but Daisy nor Ruby are Sharon level.

It's not like Sharon was ever implied to be bad or anything, she was one of the most elite agents SHIELD had to offer, to the point that Fury himself got her to go undercover to keep an eye on/protect Captain America. On-paper, is Daisy's status really all that different?

@arcus1: Yes, since Sharon practically has zero notoriety when it comes to accolades, attributes, or implied standings. You can't even draw from her feats since her only showing is getting wrecked by Bucky.

Compared to Daisy who is a prodigy and acclaimed student of Melinda May; dubbed S.H.I.E.L.D's most lethal agent and who is held in the same regard as the aforementioned May and Bobbi in combat by Coulson.

Sharon was in all likelihood an AoS for over a decade. She was an elite S.H.I.E.L.D. agent assigned to protect Captain America himself by Nick Fury personally. She was depicted as having a high-skill level, fighting alongside Widow against Bucky and was clearly supposed to be highly skilled. If they crossed over that's most likely how she'd be depicted.

@arcus1: It's not. However, I think if a crossover ever happened they'd explicitly make some notation about Daisy having enhanced physicals of some kind at this point. Because logically she shouldn't beat May/Ward, despite them kind of being her training mentors.

As for Ruby, I think she's blantantly above the likes of Sharon Carter no matter how you slice. They may have similar training, although Ruby would have started much younger more akin to Elektra. The thing is that Ruby was specifically noted to have been Eugene orally breed to be perfect, which implies her basic potential is on par with ANY peak human. Ruby just doesn't have experience yet.

Again, she's implied to be on the elite tier (Fury wouldn't entrust just anyone to protect Captain America). Wiki says she's SHIELD Special Service, I'm not really sure what that means, but it would seem to be another indicator of her elite status.

Has Coulson said that Daisy's just as good as May/Bobbi? I am a bit behind on AoS.

As far as training, yeah we know Daisy's trainer, but Sharon went through the same program that produced May, along with Ward and Bobbi. She's also more experienced than Daisy (considering she was already an elite agent in TWS, at which point Daisy was just getting past being a rookie).

Doesn't mean she'd be exactly the same as Sharon Carter, but (if we assume Daisy without her powers), on-paper it would make sense for them to be similar

Yeah, the experience factor seems to limit Ruby. I mean, on-paper Ruby could arguably be superior to Daisy too, but Daisy has actual field experience, while Ruby only just graduated Hydra high school

@arcus1: Special Service just means she's a bodyguard. Hence why she was assigned to protect Fury in TWS. While, it does speak volumes that Fury picked her as her Serviceman, I don't think it's necessarily an indication of her CQC skill. Which is what we're discussing.

I forget the exact quote but Coulson once made a statement saying that Daisy along with May, were the only agents capable of clearing a whole room of HYDRA agents unarmed and solo since Bobbi's resignation. Now, obviously Bobbi and May are better than Daisy but it's a clear statement regarding where Daisy stands in relation to Bobbi/May if Coulson says they're one of the only two agents who could clear a hostile assault put on them and walk out alive and unbothered. It's meant to establish Daisy and put her on the same pedestal as the other 3 elite agents.

Sure, Sharon has gone through the same training but her field experience is quite vanilla compared to Daisy's. Daisy was pitted against HYDRA, an Inhuman War, aliens, LMDs and the Kree. She was forced the fight to survive and had to be cut for the absolute best cloth to be as good as she is. She's a prodigy and an exceptionally fast learner. I agree with the notion that logically, it doesn't make sense for her to be better than people who's been training almost double the time she's been on the field. It's sound. However that is the level she is intended the operate at. The writers are saying that Daisy is that good. It's fiction, it's not 100% realistic and that's when writer's intent should play more of a role.

Bodyguards have to fight, Sharon wouldn't exactly be a top-pick protector if she was lacking in the h2h department

If clearing that room was the upper limit of May's abilities, then sure, that statement could imply they're comparable. But all that means is that May and Daisy are the two most capable agents SHIELD had left (and their number of agents was significantly reduced I don't even know if they had any other high caliber field agents). Plus, Daisy has powers, which she needed to use to clear the room when she actually had to do it in real life. She wasn't able to do it with just h2h. Factoring in powers, Daisy's well above May.

Plus, that statement from Coulson was all the way back in S3. Maybe now Daisy's a peer to May, but she for sure hadn't reached that point in S3.

Sure, Daisy has had more experiences than Sharon (an easy argument to make considering we've barely seen much of Sharon). Never even claimed that Sharon should be better than Daisy as a result of having at least twice the time as an agent. Rogueshadow and I were saying that, if Daisy (somehow stripped of her powers) would probably be written comparably to someone like Sharon if she were to appear in the movies. It's not like that's a bad thing, Sharon was depicted as a highly capable fighter when she and Widow took on Bucky. Purely on-paper, there's no reason for her standing to be significantly different from Daisy's.

@arcus1:

Plus, Daisy has powers, which she needed to use to clear the room when she actually had to do it in real life. She wasn't able to do it with just h2h.

Do you mean this scene?

She does clear it h2h. She didn't need her powers. The agent's knife just gets snagged in the holder and Daisy couldn't get it out. It's a small hiccup on an mission that otherwise went perfectly. They were on a time crunch so Daisy quakes him to keep them on schedule. Unless you're saying that Daisy was completely out of her depth here and would've lost hadn't she had her powers. That's highly doubtful.

Bodyguards have to fight, Sharon wouldn't exactly be a top-pick protector if she was lacking in the h2h department

Sharon seemed to be yearned more for her marksmanship and deduction skills but fair enough.

@arcus1: This isn't an on-paper battle, and I think there should be a balance between feats and story perspective. By feats, Ruby beats Widow solidly. On paper, I don't see much of a gap between them besides duration of experience. I can't think of a single reason for which Natasha would win.

@angeljax:

Yeah, having to stay within the time constraint is what I was talking about. The time limitation was the whole reason that fight was a big deal-why they needed to practice it. Otherwise taking out some goons wouldn’t be a big deal

So Daisy wouldn’t have lost, but it would seem that she wouldn’t have stayed in the time constraint

EDIT Rewatching it, I get the knife getting stuck point, that was kinda outside of her control. At the same time, if she hadn't taken so long to deal with that first guy, she would've been fine

@the_magister:

Yeah, I was just curious what you thought about the on-paper aspect

I disagree about Ruby beating Widow solidly by feats. With her fodder wrecking feats, beating Hawkeye, matching Ant Man-Widow’s got enough to at the very least say it’d be a difficult fight

On paper, Widow’s had better training and way more experience, don’t see how Ruby could be equal or superior on paper. Obviously that’s not all that matters, but imo it makes up for Widow’s feat gap (which is really just a gap with Daisy)

Imo, one of Widow's more easily overlooked feats is her fight with Ant Man from Civil War. I slowed the first part down so it can be seen better. She's adapted to his shrinking ability-note how she times her kick just right to tag him as he gets big again.

After this she starts fighting Hawkeye, so apparently she managed to put him down or get past him somehow, but we don't actually see that happen

@arcus1: I don't see a single argument for Widow having equivalent feats to Ruby tbh. Ruby is just better. Keeping up with Daisy in a prolonged fight (who has a fodder feat better than any of Widow's, better feats against superhumans, and better physicals) >>>>>>>>>>>>> outskilling Ant-Man and Hawkeye.

@the_magister:

So, on-paper, you agree Black Widow is superior to Ruby?

Who says Natasha couldn't have even kept up with Daisy? Do you really think a fight between them would be so one-sided?

Some more underrated feats for Black Widow

Infinity War might help make up for the feat gap with other elite agents that's developed

But I've never understood the notion that somehow Black Widow is just a second rate agent

@arcus1: On paper, Ruby is also genetically engineered by Daniel Whitehall to be the perfect specimen for HYDRA. What do you make of that?

Widow didn't even do anything to the Ultron bot...if you look carefully, it doesn't even fall or anything once she lets go with her legs.

Kicking a mech pack guy away isn't anything groundbreaking for the elite AoS agents.

And yes. By feats, a fight between Widow and Daisy really would be one-sided.

• Daisy has better physicals
• Daisy has better feats against superhumans
• Daisy's feat against the Watchdogs is better than any of Widow's fodder feats

AoS agents in general are better than their film counterparts. If Widow wins against Daisy, it'd basically be due to her being an Avenger and nothing else. It would be to satisfy general audience's preconceived notions, not because she'd actually win.

On paper, it'd be close. Balancing feats and on paper ability, I don't get why it is difficult to see that Daisy (and by extension, Ruby) outstrips Natasha.

(although I am pretty sure I am guilty of my own biases as well, so don't take this personally)

@the_magister:

Gives her lots of potential to work with, I'd have no problem saying that she's better than Widow when Widow just graduated from the Red Room, but genetic engineering doesn't change the fact that she's still a teenager with minimal real world experience

Eh fair enough

Don't think they've ever casually kicked a guy in a bargain brand IM suit away like that, to be fair.

On-paper, Daisy literally has nothing to compare to Widow, except that she was the second best h2h specialist in S3 SHIELD (at a time when I don't remember there being any other notable h2h fighters besides the two of them). Daisy's sheer quantity of feats turns things in the opposite direction, which is why I can see Daisy winning. I just don't think it'd be the near stomp you seem to think it is

It seems like you're extrapolating one statement about May having more black belts than Widow to mean May's on-paper ability is a tier above Widow (even though Widow wasn't even working on black belts in the Red Room, so naturally May's should have more black belts since her training was much more traditional). I can see May being above Widow, but even just by that statement, Widow wouldn't be used as a benchmark for May's h2h ability if Widow wasn't a great contender herself.

Not sure that made sense, so I'm gonna try again. You seem to see that statement as meaning "May's so much better than Widow." I see it more as "yeah, Widow's really good, but May's also that good." For comparison:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2018/03/30/lebron-james-breaks-michael-jordan-record-consecutive-double-digit-games/474975002/

Doesn't mean Lebron is now on another level than Michael Jordon (I had to google basketball players breaking MJ's records, apparently this is actually a recent thing). We wouldn't even be bringing Michael Jordon up if he wasn't crazy good. By the same notion, if Widow was just a second rate agent compared to May (or even Daisy), why would she be brought up for comparison at all?

I'd argue that Ollie's got superior feats and on-paper ability to Daisy, so there's that

@arcus1: Calling Daisy vs Nat any sort of stomp is a pretty big leap, you're right. Nat has what it takes to make it an interesting fight. I have the same contention with her and Ollie. While both of them would beat her, I think how she is depicted is generally good enough to give them solid fights.

I'll address your other points when I am not Netflixing and chilling. (You know the hustle bruh, got them ladies over at the apartment)

I'd also say that Nat vs Ollie isn't gonna be a stomp (though not as close as Daisy vs Nat would be)

Atta boy, treat those imaginary ladies well