Avatar image for the_magister
#1 Edited by The_Magister (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

Bloodlust is on. Bobbi and May each get an ICER with 3 rounds, plus standard SHIELD body protection. The fight takes place in the warehouse where Batman fought Lex's mercenaries in BvS. The Level 5 SHIELD agents get the gear they had in their hallway scene in 1x17 of AoS.

P.S. Bobbi has her batons.

Avatar image for bladeoffury
#2 Posted by BladeOfFury (2901 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobbi and May get wrecked.

Avatar image for the_magister
#3 Posted by The_Magister (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury: Why? I put them against 24 based on the fact that Ward took on 12.

Avatar image for rbt
#4 Posted by RBT (24744 posts) - - Show Bio

How is this fair? Ladies die.

Avatar image for angeljax
#5 Posted by AngelJax (10582 posts) - - Show Bio

I think environment/location would be important to know for this

Avatar image for rbt
#6 Posted by RBT (24744 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for angeljax
#7 Posted by AngelJax (10582 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the setting is way too open, conceivably May and Bobbi together could win given how Ward beat half of the the agents on his own.

It depends on how you interpret how competent of marksman May and Bobbi are in comparison to Ward.

Avatar image for jsdoctor
#8 Posted by JSDoctor (1213 posts) - - Show Bio

Theoretically the duo, but if all of the agents rush them at the same time then there isn't much that they can do.

Avatar image for the_magister
#9 Posted by The_Magister (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

It depends on how you interpret how competent of marksman May and Bobbi are in comparison to Ward.

They are on his level, although he edges them out in pure precision.

Avatar image for _kingoflatveria
#10 Posted by _KingofLatveria (16967 posts) - - Show Bio

R.I.P Ladies

Avatar image for the_magister
#11 Posted by The_Magister (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@_kingoflatveria: @rbt: @jsdoctor: I have both May and Bobbi above Ward in combat prowess, so why is it so inconceivable that they can pull this off?

Avatar image for _kingoflatveria
#12 Posted by _KingofLatveria (16967 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for jsdoctor
#13 Posted by JSDoctor (1213 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: I think it's completely conceivable that they could pull this off, and in universe they definitely would. It's just that if the agents fight smart and swarm them (unlike they did with Ward,) it might be a bit tricker.

Avatar image for rbt
#14 Posted by RBT (24744 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Ward took on 6 of them in cqc, got overwhelmed and only managed to get a circumstantial win.

Avatar image for batvibe12
#15 Posted by Batvibe12 (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like the duo will get overwhelmed.

Avatar image for arcus1
#16 Posted by Arcus1 (26575 posts) - - Show Bio

Are the Level 5 agents willing to actually use their guns?

The girls can take out 6 with icers, but that leaves 9 for each of them to deal with

Ward only beat the 6 he fought with a convenient knife, Bobbi could maybe replicate his success with her batons, but 9 is still more than 6. May doesn't have the physical ability to deal with getting ganged up on as well as Ward did.

It's not impossible that they could win, but I doubt it.

Avatar image for aka_aka_aka_ak
#17 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow more of a stomp/mismatch than Jessica vs Spidey.

Avatar image for omriamar
#18 Posted by omriamar (6405 posts) - - Show Bio

24? nahhh

Avatar image for deactivated-5aa8a6c4d26f9
#19 Posted by deactivated-5aa8a6c4d26f9 (269 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo takes them.

Avatar image for torikowontdie
#20 Posted by TorikoWONTDie (1443 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo.

May is a fodder wrecking machine with gear.

Bobbi is the same using her batons. She can literally one shit each agent with a baton.

Avatar image for kingofwakanda
#21 Posted by KingOfWakanda (1104 posts) - - Show Bio

I give them a fighting chance. They can take out 6 off the bat so they are already down to 18. Do some flips, use a couple as human shields and they can disarm and use the Shield Agent's guns against the others.

The only issue is that it only takes one well placed bullet to do them in.

Online
Avatar image for webinyoureye11
#22 Posted by webinyoureye11 (4883 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for level 5 shield agents?

Avatar image for paytience
#23 Posted by Paytience (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for level 5 shield agents?

The Shield tactical agents in armor and helmets with subs, mostly. The guys Ward fought...STRIKE was level 5 agents, under command of Rumlow who was level 6. Katherine Shane and Akela Amadour were level 4 agents. Akela pulled off series of seemingly impossible jewel heists and could fight pretty decently against May. Although Coulson noted she was a gifted case.
Agent 33 was (I think) a level 5 agent as well.


Avatar image for arcus1
#24 Posted by Arcus1 (26575 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for level 5 shield agents?

Loading Video...

These are the kinds of guys they'd be fighting

I give them a fighting chance. They can take out 6 off the bat so they are already down to 18. Do some flips, use a couple as human shields and they can disarm and use the Shield Agent's guns against the others.

The only issue is that it only takes one well placed bullet to do them in.

Actually yeah, that could work, assuming the agents are spaced out enough

Avatar image for bladeoffury
#25 Posted by BladeOfFury (2901 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury: Why? I put them against 24 based on the fact that Ward took on 12.

Ward had 6 rounds against 12 agents. The ladies have 6 rounds against 24 agents. Ward brought the number down to 6, while the ladies can only bring it down to 18. Ward beat the 6 agents with insane difficulty, and while the ladies slightly outclass him IMO, they're not beating 9 each.

Avatar image for the_magister
#26 Posted by The_Magister (11752 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury: How highly do you think these guys rank when compared to other SHIELD/HYDRA fodder that we've seen?

Avatar image for bladeoffury
#27 Posted by BladeOfFury (2901 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister:

Since they're agents, they should be above the regular cops and mercenaries theoretically, but they did seem pretty bad in that scene.

  • Ward shot the first six down in 2 seconds. Not being able to pull the trigger in that time is unfortunate.
  • After the two guys at 0:15, everyone forgot they had a gun. Even after bringing Ward down on the floor and hammering at him for a good 12 seconds, not one of them was smart enough to pick up a gun and shoot him.

But ultimately, they're implied to be a high level of fodder.

Avatar image for paytience
#29 Edited by Paytience (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury said:

@the_magister:

Since they're agents, they should be above the regular cops and mercenaries theoretically, but they did seem pretty bad in that scene.

  • Ward shot the first six down in 2 seconds. Not being able to pull the trigger in that time is unfortunate.
  • After the two guys at 0:15, everyone forgot they had a gun. Even after bringing Ward down on the floor and hammering at him for a good 12 seconds, not one of them was smart enough to pick up a gun and shoot him.

But ultimately, they're implied to be a high level of fodder.

Ward dropped 7 in under 2 seconds...the first part of that 2 seconds was done in slomo. The feat is about a second and a half total. Less Just under a second second for the first five, than a turn a round to get the two coming around the corner of his right side. (His right side as he left the door.)

(You can verify this yourself...youtube allows you to play at .25 speed. Ward leaves the door in slow mo at 8 seconds, takes his first shot just after 9 seconds...slo mo kicks out, Ward drops the 5th agent just before it clicks over to 10)

That is a stupid fast blitz that nobody has mimiced and no "fodder" has reacted to.

Nobody forgot they had a gun...several of them TRIED to shoot Ward. Ward was simply too good at manipulating cover and getting to the close for the guns to be brought effectively to bear. By the time they got him down, it was too late...you DON'T FIRE YOUR WEAPON WHEN YOUR ALLIES ARE ACROSS FROM YOU. Period. That's why you set up ambushes in an L shape...

By the time they got Ward down, guns were already out of play...it's conceivable after the point they got him down, that maybe they could of got their guns back in play, but that also could of given him more space in the trying, which in turn would of allowed him to capitalize on them again. Which is what he had already done several times. Although, it might have been a good idea for one of them to hold back and draw while the others beat on hm to keep him down, but that's hindsight.

The only guys who DIDN'T try to get their gun up or shoot him, was the first guy to punch him, who once again, was coming up when Ward was engaged with his allies who were in a position directly across from him...meaning he couldn't of risked the shot, and Ward was winning the gun fight anyway so it's better not to do that...and the guy Ward got when swinging from the rafters, who once again, was entering the situation after it was already in a melee, and his allies were already engaged in close.

They tried to shoot him at the :10 mark..after that, he kept bodies in between him and active gunmen at all times, or during moments like at :27 where the agent tries to get up and bring his sub into play, but Ward immediately closes on him again and takes him out of the fight.

The agents definitely TRIED to use guns on Ward...he was just too good at taking away the opportunities for them to do so.

Avatar image for arcus1
#30 Posted by Arcus1 (26575 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience:

Why couldn't 5 of them have kept him pinned down while the sixth gets a gun to shoot him?

Avatar image for paytience
#31 Edited by Paytience (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@paytience:

Why couldn't 5 of them have kept him pinned down while the sixth gets a gun to shoot him?

First....because there were 5 of them. A dozen agents, minus the 7 he first shot...how's that math working out?

Second...Read the post:

Although, it might have been a good idea for one of them to hold back and draw while the others beat on hm to keep him down, but that's hindsight.

Also take into account that they had thus far been completely unsuccessful at holding him off. There was no reason to think 3 or 4 could keep him down when they couldn't already, and no time to make that adjustment. They had already learned the hard way a few seconds prior that they were not enough to secure him if he got any sort of space whatsoever. It was better and faster to completely swarm him and keep him crowded...it didn't work.

Also, this concept can be verified by later feats, such as the one against Malicks men where they tried to do exactly that and Ward cut through them.

There are a lot of ifs, ands or buts that can be said, but at the end of the day...that wasn't a case of pis or incompetent fodder. That feat was good because the fodder did everything right, they just weren't good enough to get the job done. Even the way they swarmed was smart...nobody waited their turn...nobody hesitated...as soon as the opportunity up, they took that fraction of a second and immediately swarmed.

They should have dog piled..,or the guy that threw him should have immediately pulled a pistol; but he might not have wanted to risk Ward getting his own weapon, and also, no decision making is perfect 100 percent of the time...especially when you have every strategic advantage, are getting ready to stack a room, and your opponent still manages to gain complete tactical surprise. That's...worst case scenario and they handled it well...comparatively. Especially compared to most fodder.

Avatar image for arcus1
#32 Posted by Arcus1 (26575 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience:

Miscounted, my bad

They had him on the ground, and they were able to keep him down for some amount of time, I see no reason it woudn't have been logical to at least attempt to pin him down and shoot him as a more effective solution than just kicking him. Logically they wouldn't have had to hold him there for very long to get a shot off

Not saying that they're incompetent or anything, but it seems that they didn't in fact do everything right if there was another thing they could have done that would have worked

Avatar image for corylamount
#33 Posted by Corylamount (894 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the Duo takes this. They can take out 6 with the icers. Which leaves 18 which is 9 for each of them. I think May will have to work but Bobbi will not have to work as hard due to her batons. She can throw them and take two out like that. May can hold on long enough to take her side out. I do think that she will have to work but May is good at using her environment. May could pick up a tool and use that which she has done before. I do think that this will be extremely hard but they take this.

Avatar image for paytience
#34 Posted by Paytience (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:

@paytience:

Miscounted, my bad

They had him on the ground, and they were able to keep him down for some amount of time, I see no reason it woudn't have been logical to at least attempt to pin him down and shoot him as a more effective solution than just kicking him. Logically they wouldn't have had to hold him there for very long to get a shot off

Not saying that they're incompetent or anything, but it seems that they didn't in fact do everything right if there was another thing they could have done that would have worked

Maybe so, but this wasn't a situation that was planned for, and they were no longer a single unit at that point. Their teams had been broken, and they were now random squad members. Applying a "tactical" solution requires some sort of planning they didn't have in place. They were getting prepared to go in the room.
Ward took that away.

Sure, they could of swarmed him and let someone else draw, but that would of still required more of them to come off of Ward in order for the shot to be taken. Before you can shoot, you need the shot to be clear; and they had already shot one of their own trying to get to Ward.

Conceivably, they were trying to beat him enough to do just that. "Some amount of time" was 5 or 6 seconds until he saw the knife. That's a good amount of time, but it's not enough time to secure someone and then clear a shot between your four buddies that are holding him. (Maybe once in few thousand situations it is...unless you're one of the "super" spies)
Particularly not when said person just put down more than half of you before spending a good amount of time kicking your ass.

They did for the most part, do things correctly...Ward was just better and it forced them into a difficult situation. 5 or 6 seconds is a lot of time. But it's not always enough time to recover, formulate a new plan, and then execute it.


Avatar image for anthp2000
#35 Posted by ANTHP2000 (19650 posts) - - Show Bio

The ladies clean house here.

Give Bobbi a full round ICER/Gun and her batons and I'd argue for her soloing, at least in a more open area than a hallway. May's a similar case, but she's unarmed (melee-wise) here, so she is more backup - but still backup enough to handle at least 10 agents. Bobbi can clear the rest, esspecially with the shock function of her batons allowed on top of it all.

I'm honestly incredibly impressed by the top field specialists in terms of street-level ranking. They're peak humans, yet they have skill with martial arts and weapons to get them out of impossible combat situations. Also, I think people are forgetting that the knife Ward picked up to slaughter the last 5-6 agents wasn't 'convenient' in any form of the word. He was the one carrying it as one of his weapons entering the fight.

Avatar image for rbt
#36 Posted by RBT (24744 posts) - - Show Bio

Bobbi and May get wrecked.

Avatar image for tonymartial
#37 Posted by TonyMartial (6003 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol they're not taking all of them.

Avatar image for _kingoflatveria
#38 Posted by _KingofLatveria (16967 posts) - - Show Bio