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#1 Posted by nfactor1995 (12941 posts) - - Show Bio
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This battle pits MCU Josef (the primary other Winter Soldier) against MCU T'Challa in a purely H2H combat fight. Both are wearing street clothes and the fight is to the death.

Who wins and why?

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#2 Posted by thehunter (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

You mean one of those other super soldier guys?

Hmm, we're not really sure on what stage of Bucky's development it was when he was kicking his butt, so I'm not sure we can really say what level he's on.

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#3 Edited by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I'm mad that Zemo killed all of the Winter Soldiers. It was a good twist and I guess people wanted a Cap vs Ironman fight, but taking on a squad of Winter Soldiers even worse than Bucky is way too good to tease but kill off IMO.

That being said maybe T'Challa. Can't say for sure since Josef had less than 15 seconds of fighting feats.

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#5 Posted by bump1010 (1043 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this the guy that beat Bucky?

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#6 Posted by comicace3 (12434 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

Is this the guy that beat Bucky?

Yeah.. but he only had one feat in the movie and we don't know how skilled Bucky was back then. Probably the same who knows.

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#7 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

Worth noting that Bucky was in training mode whereas Josef was bloodlusted.

Anyway, T'challa should win.

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#8 Edited by JohnJustice (110 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd still back T'Challa

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#9 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43249 posts) - - Show Bio

Teasing us with a bunch of winter soldiers sure was some shit.

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#10 Posted by werkudoro (6350 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate or josef

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#11 Posted by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

Teasing us with a bunch of winter soldiers sure was some shit.

Exactly. The premise alone is good enough for an entire movie.

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#12 Posted by nfactor1995 (12941 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: It sucks that there isn't even the possibility now that they'll show up in the future.

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#13 Posted by mexcomics2078 (2867 posts) - - Show Bio

Panther

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#14 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27884 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa.

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#15 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (5268 posts) - - Show Bio

ffs, I'm sick to death of dudes thinking that Josef was actually stronger than Bucky. Apperently sparring and fighting a holding back Bucky means he's stronger, despite the fact that later on in the scene, we literally see him one shot another Winter Solider with the exact same enhancement with one arm, which shows how Bucky wasn't even trying that hard in comparison.

T'Challa wins, based off his showings against Bucky during their fight.

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#16 Edited by Oreoghoul (1768 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa wins this

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#17 Posted by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly I don't really see any proof that Bucky was holding back. I feel like that is an excuse.

Josef.

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#18 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (5268 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Honestly I don't really see any proof that Bucky was holding back. I feel like that is an excuse.

Josef.

Based on the ease that he beat the other dude while with one hand only, it's the only possible reason.

Each of the new Winter Soldiers went through the same process, the same injections, etc. Behaviour and physical stat wise, they all seems to have around about the same level. The idea that sparring translates into what would happen in a real fight with motivation is in itself a excuse to justify contextless conjecture.

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#19 Posted by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: Maybe the other dude simply wasn't as skilled as Josef? Josef was the leader.

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#20 Edited by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa due to having more than 10 seconds worth of feats

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#21 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (5268 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@diarrhearegatta: Maybe the other dude simply wasn't as skilled as Josef? Josef was the leader.

There's no actual physical proof that states he was the leader, or if they had one at all. All they talk about is that there were five of them, and they were all highly skilled killers even before the injections.

Josef was the one most highlighted, but he was never stated to be the strongest or the toughest. In terms of implication, they basically make them out to be around about the same level stat wise between them.

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#22 Posted by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: But Josef clearly performed better against Bucky. Hence he is better.

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#23 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (5268 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@diarrhearegatta: But Josef clearly performed better against Bucky. Hence he is better.

If you think 15 seconds of a spar that lasted for a unknown amount of time with a character that right afterwards actually knocks out someone as strong as him with one arm translates to the other guy being stronger for some reason, then sure.

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#24 Edited by Amcu (16930 posts) - - Show Bio

Garnering the upperhand against Bucky for a short moment while training isn't enough to place you above T'Challa IMO.

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#25 Posted by KingLouie (3567 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa

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#26 Posted by jayc1324 (26431 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa. Not only was Josef's upper hand on Bucky too brief to be meaningful, but I think Josef was also just better trained and more hardened. Josef attacked the doctors int he facility, for example, something Bucky would not do. Bucky also tried to rely on his metal arm during their brief fight, and didn't try to do anything skillful. Also worth noting that Josef landed one good hit on Bucky that didn't even incapacitate him, the scientist guy just ended the fight.

Now on the other hand we have T'Challa, who has also demonstrated the ability to overpower Bucky's arm, beat Killmonger, beat Bucky in pure hand to hand, and stalemate Cap while Cap had his shield.

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#27 Posted by Rebake (4484 posts) - - Show Bio

A match made in heaven.........cause they're both...

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#28 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@rebake said:

A match made in heaven.........cause they're both...

they're both what?

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#29 Edited by KingLouie (3567 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Rebake (4484 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: I never said anything about stronger. It only takes one well placed strike to knock someone out when your there physical equal. All this tells me is Josef is better than the random guy Bucky knocked out.

I only care about what Josef and T'challa have done. The only way I can see an arguement for black panther to be made is that T'challa did dominate Bucky in there first fight. However Bucky is suppose to be an equal to Steve according to the Russos and it seems that there consecutive fights were more even. Josef benefits from only having one showing.

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#32 Posted by Oreoghoul (1768 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by JediXMan (42743 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Honestly I don't really see any proof that Bucky was holding back. I feel like that is an excuse.

Josef.

I think the fact that Bucky was oneshotting other members of the Death Squad, with one arm, indicates he was holding back.

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#34 Posted by Rebake (4484 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: yeah, I feel like the reason they're so much of a threat is when they work together. Bucky can't handle all five going at him at once.

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#35 Posted by Myleftbuttcheeksolos (408 posts) - - Show Bio

Then and now, tchalla

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#36 Posted by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: I just think that indicates Josef is better than the others. Bucky was visibly sweating when he fought Josef so I don't really think he wasn't putting effort into the fight.

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#37 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6312 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: All Bucky did was knock him down. If you watch the BTS filming for that scene he gets right back up and attacks one of the guards.

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#38 Edited by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: That's interesting. I definitely thought there was meant to be some tension when cap, Bucky and iron man were heading to confront the death squad before it was revealed they died.

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#39 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6312 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: It's very clear that each of the soldiers were meant to be a match for Bucky and Cap on their own. Consider how Cap has faired most every time he's been smacked by Bucky's arm? He's been just as injured or rocked as the guy here. He just got right back up.

Besides it's not like stray hits don't happen in fights. For instance if you look at the airport fight, Bucky lands nearly twice as many blows on T'Challa as the reverse. Yet T'challa could still land a stray one-shot despite them overall being equals.

It happens. And is not a detriment to the other Winter Soldiers standings at all.

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by JediXMan (42743 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jedixman: I just think that indicates Josef is better than the others. Bucky was visibly sweating when he fought Josef so I don't really think he wasn't putting effort into the fight.

Skill would explain Josef beating Bucky, not overpowering his arm. That would imply Josef was given a stronger serum than Bucky, Steve, or the other Winter Soldiers since all of them are demonstrably and consistently physically weaker than the arm.

@jedixman: All Bucky did was knock him down. If you watch the BTS filming for that scene he gets right back up and attacks one of the guards.

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Fair enough but the fact that he does it so casually does demonstrate the physical disparity. We also don't know what the intent was in the scene since we don't see him get up in the actual film. These are just stuntmen fighting in the scene; they were likely told to play the scene out because they didn't know what would make it into the final cut. BTS footage helps, sometimes, but it isn't always reliable because it does not indicate the director's intent.

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#42 Edited by jashro44 (53144 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: With over powering the arm Josef could have been applying technique (it looks like it to me). T'challa also had some scenes where he seemed to do better against the arm than Steve but I don't think he is stronger overall. I assume the same thing with Josef.

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#43 Posted by Amendment50 (15468 posts) - - Show Bio

Back when T'Challa had really limited feats I think this thread made more sense

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#44 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6312 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman:

Fair enough but the fact that he does it so casually does demonstrate the physical disparity.

It's Bucky's bionic arm.

We also don't know what the intent was in the scene since we don't see him get up in the actual film.

Yes we do

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We clearly see him back up and fighting as Bucky walked out (on the left). You do realise that that scene is the actual scene right. That is what is happening. The directors cleared that choreo and filmed all of it on set. It absolutely is the intent.

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#45 Edited by SocaJunkie (8664 posts) - - Show Bio

T’Challa eventually, comparable stats with better technical skill and senses.

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#46 Posted by AlphaQ (6356 posts) - - Show Bio

I do think Josef by hype actually was supposed to be better than Bucky, by feats he isn't really there though.

T'Challa has done everything Josef has done and more.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

Josef for obvious reasons. He completely dominated Bucky and it was heavily implied that the 5 other winter soldiers turned out superior to him.

T‘Challas performance against Bucky, while longer was not nearly as good.

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#48 Posted by Lan_Fan (14950 posts) - - Show Bio

Josef.

I'm just not impressed by T'Challa's showings without his suit.

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#49 Edited by The_Gaurdian (598 posts) - - Show Bio

T'Challa does to Josef what Josef did to Bucky. He's got way more experience fighting super soldiers and his combat agility will help in most environments

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#50 Edited by MarvelandDCfan24 (7553 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Josef who stomped Bucky T'challa was able to gain yhe upper hand slightly in his fights vs Bucky while he was fully commited to killing while he had way more advantages such as a impenetrable suit and claws that can cut through most materials