- Post Aquaman,
- Arthur has his Costume and Trident above
- Battle takes place in CW Airport
- In Character
- Win by any means except bfr
@ready_4_madness: He doesn't need to ko Aquaman, all he needs to do is piece his skin using his 20mm gatling guns. Arthur hasn't shown the piercing durability to be able to withstand even a 9mm round, let alone Iron Monger's Armaments. He quite literally gets obliterated by these bullets unless shown otherwise.
@ready_4_madness: True he has armor, but show me where his armor has tanked piercing damage akin to 20mm bullets? Or even 9mm bullets for that matter. If you can't, then Iron Monger shreds him into pieces.
Firstly, there's no proof he reacted to them, for all you know he could be aim dodging, therefore he would be reacting to the user and not the beam itself. Secondly, plasma beams that fire once every few seconds vs a gun can fire 60 rounds per second?
it's infinitely easier to dodge the former than the latter, especially if you're going to be aim dodging. It's not even comparable. He has also been tagged by far slower things, like Black Manta's and other Atlantean's strikes.
@atmexle: he literally deflects the beams with his trident. He’s also not going to shred him to pieces because of bullets can’t go through his skin, how is it ever going to go through Atlantean armour? It’s just common sense.
And getting tagged by bullets and getting tagged in h2h combat are two different things because skill comes into play. Iron Monger is not as skilled as Black Manta nor is he a similar type of opponent. Aquaman has the option of throwing the Trident straight through him or straight up bodying him up close.
@ready_4_madness: Sure, I'll give the reaction feat to you then.
What do you mean common sense? It's not an argument, I can say that it's "common sense" a big robot will beat a smaller creature, but it's not a proper argument to illustrate the qualities of the things we're talking about. Where has Atlantean armor tanked something of this magnitude? We haven't even seen it tank regular bullets, it's pretty possible that their armor will stop a 22. or something, but there is absolutely no proof that it can stop a 20mm bullet, which has vastly superior penetrating power than low caliber guns. If I saw at least one Atlantean armor tank a 20mm bullet, then I'll concede that Aquaman probably comes out fine. You're asking me to accept premises with lots of loading assumptions, and again, no proof.
Of course, they're different things, but you're missing the point. If you're fast enough to react and dodge literally 60 bullets coming at you, no human level character should be able to tag you unless you're jobbing. That's what I'm saying Arthur can't do, therefore he gets tagged by a lot of bullets.
Iron Monger's skill is irrelevant here. It would only be relevant H2H, but I already established that I was talking about Arthur getting tag by his gatling gun, so I'm not sure why you're comparing Manta's skill to Iron Monger's skill when it's clear I'm not talking about skill and I'm talking about dodging a punch vs dodging dozens of bullets.
Also bullets are faster than his trident, so Iron Monger has an advantage here.
@atmexle: Arthur was literally shot in the face. So yes, he can withstand 9mm.
Anyway Monger's rotary gun and missile should hurt/kill him. On the other hand, Atlan trident should also pierce the suit.
I think it depends on who go for the kill first.
@atmexle: just because you dodge bullets it doesn’t mean you can’t get tagged in h2h. Iron Man, Thor, Wonder Woman, Captain America all of them have dodged bullets or reacted to something faster, but all of them get tagged in h2h. That argument is flawed.
Aquaman has been tagged by plenty bullets but it didn’t slow him down, to say he wouldn’t be able to take Iron Monger because of his arsenal is pure assumption.
@ready_4_madness:Sure, if you're fast enough to dodge bullets it's still possible to be tagged by punches. But it's very unlikely to be tagged by human level characters. That's not the problem though, I'm not even talking about 1 or two rounds, I'm talking about 60 bullets in a single second.
I'm not drawing a comparison between a character being able to dodge a bullet or several bullets vs a character being able to get tagged by a punch, I'm comparing dodging dozens of bullets vs getting tagged by a punch. The latter is much different than what you seem to be implying when you mention the former.
It's logically not possible for a character to dodge and react to 60 bullets per second if they're going to be tagged by much slower punches. If it happens consistently, the term is known as jobbing. I already addressed this above, perhaps I wasn't clear as you're making a different comparison I'm making. Dunno which versions of those characters you're addressing, but movie versions, none of those guys can dodge bullets except for WW. Even then, she usually always jobs whenever she gets tagged by slower things or is just plainly not paying attention. WW vs Steppenwolf, she could have blitzed him the same way she blitzed the Nazi soldiers, but she instead chose to engage with him in H2H.
You know what, we can make this easy, the video above that addressed one of my points showed him getting shot by assault rifle fire which caused him to stumble backward. If he could react easily to gunfire he should have no issues not getting tagged by those so it kinda makes your point against Iron Monger pretty weak given that Iron Monger has a higher rate of fire. He's nowhere fast enough to do that, only Supes, WW and Flash could dodge the barrage of bullets by IM in the DCEU
Regarding the getting tagged by bullets thing, sure? But I'm going by feats here and as shown in the video above and I stand corrected, he did get tagged by lower caliber gunfire and I'm not assuming anything beyond that. Your assumption would be saying that he could tank even greater gunfire when he hasn't demonstrated anything close to that. That's like me saying DD could take the combined heat of the sun because he didn't seem bothered by a nuke.
@pkety: Yup you're right on that as shown in the video above. Tho, taking 5.56 and 9mm rounds doesn't mean he can tank 20mm bullets.
@atmexle: Iron Man has dodged F-22 Raptor bullets in his first appearance, Thor has reacted to Quicksilver & Captain America dodged a bullet, a few minutes after he took the serum.
And Wonder Woman blitzing Nazi soldiers isn’t something she does consistently, she done it once. Whereas she’s fought h2h majority of her fights. For plot reasons these thing will happen, for example one minute Dr. Strange is fast enough to react to a black hole created by Thanos, the next Thanos simply backhands him. I can give endless of example of speed inconsistencies with every single character we debate on this site.
It’s not a matter of Aquaman reacting to bullets, it’s a matter of if he even gets tagged by bullets, will it even do severe damage. Iron Monger lacks mobility sand definitely lacks the durability to handle Aquaman’s trident. The assumption of bullet tanking goes both ways, you can’t assume that those bullets will do serious damage and I can’t assume that he can tank them. What I do know is that Aquaman’s trident would go through Iron Monger.
@ready_4_madness: Iron man got hit by the F-22 bullets, all he did was move out of the line of fire after getting hit. Watch the scene again.
The Thor scene is ambiguous, we can't see whether Quicksilver was already running or if he just started running when he threw the hammer as the camera doesn't catch both the Mjolnir throw and Quicksilver in the frame at the same time.
All Captain America did was block the gunfire when the Hydra agent lifted the gun. Normal humans can do this, you don't need to react to bullets or dodge them to perform this feat.
WW has moved at an incredible speed multiple times. Deflecting the bullets from the hostages, blitzing Ares and killing that one Parademon at Gotham harbor. Of course, it happens due to plot reasons, but it doesn't mean we should handwave away these things and not consider them as feats or anti-feats. Dr. Strange defended against a Blackhole by Thanos that wasn't moving extremely fast, any normal human should definitely have been able to react to that.
I'm not saying that fast reacting characters will not have these inconsistencies, I'm saying that how often they perform these inconsistencies can be taken to make a factual statement about how they're likely to react in the future. It's a good, predictor for instance, to guess that CW flash will likely be tagged by a human-level being in the early seasons after watching several episodes considering how often he gets tagged by them.
If it's not about whether Arthur can react to bullets, then why did you even bring up the notion that he is able to react to plasma beams in an attempt to argue that he could react to bullets, all these responses about reaction and dodging was done after you mentioned that.
Of course, I can assume that 20mm bullets will do a number on him. He has no piercing feats to suggest he can, therefore the bullets should work.
You're wrong in stating that the assumption goes both ways. Using that idea I can say ridiculous things like Iron Monger can no-sell Aquaman's trident because he has never shown to be damaged by smaller piercing objects. My assumption works because I'm using feats as a baseline to determine what someone can and can't do. If Arthur hasn't tanked any bullet beyond a 5.56 or equivalent, I won't assume he can.
Also, we've seen how a grenade launcher can ko him for 20s, we know that it can. We also know that IM carries multiple missile launchers. So it follows that firing many of those should be able to put Arthur down for even a longer period of time. No assumptions here.
@atmexle: every single bullet fired did not hit Stark, he dodged some, and then he got hit. Which furthers my point that, you’re not always going to move at your max potential in combat.
The Thor one is clear because Quicksilver was the only person around him, Pietro was running for the attack, Thor was quick enough to see his movement and throw the hammer.
Rewatch the Captain America chase scene, at one point the Hydra agent shoots his gun and Steve dodges a bullet. The feat might be in his respect thread.
Arthur dodging a plasma beam was countered already. And you’re still making assumptions. And the grenade launcher feat is minor because he didn’t anticipate it to hurt him, we know this because when Black Manta’s dad tried to shoot it a second time Aquaman dodges it with ease. And he wasn’t wearing the armour he has now. And he can make a forcefield with trident.
@ready_4_madness: Well do you expect every bullet in dog fights to not miss its target? Obvious not, bullets are bound to miss and it is the nature of firing fully automatic guns. It doesn't mean F22 Raptor pilots have bullet reaction feats, neither does Stark from what you've shown. He literally dodged the line of fire, he didn't react to the bullets, there's a difference. If a fighter plane is under fire what do they do? They swerve away to avoid the bullets, no bullet reaction feats needed here.
Uhh did you not understand what I said? The camera only pans to Quicksilver running, after Thor threw the hammer. I'm not saying Thor didn't target Quicksilver he def did, I'm saying that we don't know if Quicksilver was already running and Thor threw the hammer OR if Thor threw the hammer, causing QS to run. The camera angle is not clear on this.
I watched the cap one, I'll give that to you as a bullet reaction feat.
What do you mean the optical beam feat was countered? I'm asking you why did you bring that up if it's irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Firstly, you didn't address why Trident would work on IM when I'm using your logic.
List one assumption I'm making. Don't make points without highlighting them.
You do know that Aquaman doesn't need to dodge the direct missile for it to do damage to him right? Given Arthur is tiny and IM is tall, even if Arthur sidesteps the missile blast will still hit him. Armor will help, but a missile will do so much more damage than grenade launcher and the concussive force will spread to his head even if the hit is not direct, so I'm not sure what the issue is. The forcefield is kinda featless, all it did was knock back Ocean Master, you haven't shown it can tank an explosion.
Depends on who gets the first hit
Arthur dies if he gets hit by a missile and the trident should be capable of going through
If Arthur can get into Close quarters he has a shot as well
I don't know about the trident vs Iron monger... It's more like an armored vehicle than a suit. And it's ablative, too, meaning several subsystem can be broken or taken down without affecting the core frame.
Iron Monger was no less brickish than Hulk Buster.
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