MCU Frank Castle & Billy Russo vs CW Oliver Queen (Read OP)

Vs.

Scenario:

Frank Castle / Billy Russo and Oliver Queen replace the STRIKE team and Captain America in the TWS elevator, respectively. Both Frank and Billy are armed with a Ka-Bar combat knife each. Billy however, is also equipped with his hidden wrist blade. Oliver is unarmed and in character. The team's objective is to assassinate Oliver. Will they succeed?

Ollie takes this 6/10. He has beaten Diggle, laurel and Thea before (Though it was sparring) and has taken on multiple LOA members and has beaten people who are superior to Frank and Billy.

Frank and Billy take Oliver down pretty hard under these circumstances. Frank could be slightly stronger than Oliver (even though Oliver would body him in combat due to skill) and Billy is pretty fast and deadly.

Frank solos

People should just call him what he is. Jigsaw.

While a great series( though I still don't see him as punisher) I'm sad they distanced themselves from Punisher going against people like gangsters, mafia and the like.

@infiniteternal: Did you create this thread after seeing/replying to my gauntlet thread? LOL. I know it's not EXACTLY the same, different OP. Not hating or mad or offended or anything. Just honestly curious if that's where you got your inspiration. xD

@celestialknight: Eh, Idk can you give me a link to your thread?

Edit: Okay, I think I remember now. Now that I think of it, may be it did serve as an inspiration.

@tj849: You can't be serious.

@infiniteternal: I'm being serious.

How on earth does Frank solo Oliver?

@infiniteternal: im obviously not tj, but frank's damage soak and skill should mean he can lacerate ollie

ollie takes this.

far superior reflexes, better strength feats, comparable damage soak and in terms of actually skills, it's not even close. he's no stranger to fighting multiple opponents in close range heck even s3 roy did it against three much bigger albeit less skilled men while handcuffed and without any melee weapon.

the only way team can win is with fire arms and even then, I would still give ollie the solid majority.

@infiniteternal: His Pain tolerance is absolutely ridiculous and his skill vs Daredevil and Russo lets him take the cake. Ollie cant beat him in H2H, only with Sgear.

@tj849: is it just me or is ollie getting massively downplayed and frank over hyped?

Pain tolerance?! Ollie also has insane pain tolerance and endurance And has taken out characters with similar level of pain tolerance e.g. prometheus

Skills?!

It's not even close. I think you are mis-remebering Frank's feat against dare devil. Iirc frank only came out on top due to his fire arm. and his fight against Russo was more of a no holds bar death brawl with little by way of skill. Frank is an impressive brawler but no where close to ollie's tier. He gets tagged ALL THE TIME. heck in episode one when he took out those construction workers, had one of them not been such a lousy shot and aimed for frank rather than the sledge hammer in his hand, Frank would have been done for. by contrast ollie took out pros with automatic weapons in episode one when he and his friend got kidnapped.

Again in the forest battle, Frank despite having back up from a fellow marine and micro nearly got killed. By constrast, ollie fresh out from torture took out every one of kovar's men including kovar's himself in minutes (the fishing boat meant to rescue him was only minutes away).

Heck even when Russo ' s men invaded micro's safe house and after frank had lots of prep, fire arms etc., Frank still gets tagged and would have ben dead but for him insanely thick body armour. by contrast, taking out a building full of armed goons is pretty much a cake walk for ollie and unlike frank, he has never gotten tagged once.

There is no room for comparison skill wise.

it's one thing to say that in the given scenerio, Frank and Russo can pull off a win but to say frank beats ollie in h2h is just patently false.

Oliver Queen

Oliver has comparable damage soak / pain tolerance to Frank and as for skill, he massively outclasses Frank in that area. I just don't see Frank soloing Oliver even in the given conditions.

Frank and Russo together would have a high chance of taking on Ollie. Both of them had been working together for so long and know each other's strengths and weaknesses pretty well. They'd be too much for Ollie to handle.

I wonder how long it would take Oliver to beat this guy???

@the_hajduk: I think its obvious Oliver would die. Have you seen the choreography on arrow?

Team has a shot because of the bladed weapons, but Oliver will probably take their blades from them once they are through with them.

No I don't watch CW trash. Is it really as bad as people say?

Frank solos. He has experience as a Marine. In Season 1, Diggle tells Oliver that he is no soldier.

Frank = Diggle > Oliver.

Frank stomps.

The duo can beat Oliver in this situation, but he makes them work for it.

Now that's funny.

They stab him.

Still Ollie honestly. It’ll take him several hits to put them down. But it will happen

Oliver dies handidly

frank took out like 12 prisoners in a narrower corridor at the same time, took a knife to the arm and just pulled that bitch out and used it to kill 2 more of them.

where frank lacks in in-the-moment calculation, he makes up for in brutality and damage absorption.

jigsaw is the definition of a viper, and he gives frank the hand he needs in ITM calculation.

billy and frank win.

This is not a good fight. Putting these two against a mid-tier peak human martial artist, like a Slade or a Daredevil, I can see how that would be a debatable fight due to the claustrophobic circumstances. But Oliver Queen's training and fighting skills surpass Frank and Billy by such Brobdingnagian-proportions, that the claustrophobic space isn't enough to change the outcome of the battle in the slightest way. The hard truth about DCCW vs MCU that people need to accept, is that Oliver's feats paint him and goddamn Conklin as being better and faster knife fighters than both Frank and Billy, wayy back during the season 4 flashbacks. So Oliver was about three or four entire identities away from even becoming the Green Arrow at this point. Also notice how much less Oliver and Conklin react to taking slashes and having a face thrown through a mirror than Frank and Billy did. Point is that Oliver in season 4 flashbacks has the skill and the damage threshold to defeat either Frank or Billy in a knife fight, pretty soundly.

I understand that a two-on-one is a lot different and these close quarters also don't help, but Oliver's skills today are literal magnitudes above what it once was. He could somehow start fist fights with giant bulletproof aliens that would fodderize MCU Punisher, and he was dropping them left and right. He dropped Slade's son, who is relative to Slade, in about two seconds, and a lot of people on Reddit were saying he probably could have took on Joe and Slade at the same time and still won just as easily. He also dropped Diggle who I would argue as a way more skilled knife and melee fighter than Frank and Billy in only slightly more time (Frank gets the job done but relies a lot more on his physical dominance and damage threshold. Diggle is actually master skilled as well as physically imposing). Oliver has teambusted OTA, he's teambusted NTA, he fought Bronze Tiger and China White both dual-wielding blades at the same time and could defend himself, he also fought China White and Cupid at the same time and was winning... none of these characters have been able to tag Oliver, not with all their melee weapons. So why on Earth would Frank and Billy Russo be able to touch Oliver?

And you guys know that if worst comes to worst, Oliver's damage soak is even more unfathomable than Frank's. He's prepared to roll around in his own blood and guts if it means getting the job done, so go ahead and stab him a couple times, Frank and Billy. If it does happen, it'll probably be due to Billy's hidden blade. But it won't stop Oliver from turning those blades back around on them both eventually.

I give the Green Arrow a 9/10 win here. That may sound high to a lot of people, but his feats prove it. Oliver at this point is a skill peer with Ra's al Ghul. Nobody on Ra's al Ghul's tier is getting touched by the likes of Frank and Billy.

Oliver Stomps

He still isn't serious, even after a month

The team wins.

@the_hajduk: To be fair Slade was holding back against Joe. With that said I am curious on your thoughts on comparing how well Joe did against mirakuru Slade and Oliver's showing in season 2? Against Oliver Slade was toying with him and psychologically trying to torment him yet Oliver got stomped in 13 seconds. Joe was able to hang with Slade who was suffering PTSD and was reminded about Oliver which made him more aggressive and never got overwhelmed technically despite fighting for 17 seconds:

How do you feel he compares to season 2 Oliver?

@jashro44: I can buy that Joe is another freak of nature prodigy like Adrian and Anarky who is way too skilled for his age and experience level, but Joe is probably on a lesser level than them as far as that goes because he actually does have a ton of pretty high level training to also justify him being that good. Adrian just had two years of martial arts training while Anarky has no formal training at all, just years of experience on the streets. Joe on the other hand started the same training that Slade had from a young age, and was also trained by Slade himself at least a little bit. So could younger Joe be nearly as good as mid-S2 Oliver Queen? Scaling-wise I'll go with yes. Adrian was on par with S5 Oliver Queen, Thea and Anarky are probably on par with S2 Oliver Queen, and Laurel is almost on par with S6 Diggle, so it would not be the most inexplicable thing for Joe who has more training than all of them to be close to (not on par) with S2 Oliver. Precedent has been set for these weird super prodigies within the Arrowverse.

And all of this is consistent with Joe's performance against Slade in S6. He could keep up and sort of pose a threat, but Slade had to go easy on him for the fight to prolong. That's exactly how No Mirakuru Slade would fair against mid-S2 Oliver ("Don't forget who taught you how to fight, kid.")

All of this works out with S6 Oliver basically fodderizing Joe, and by extension fodderizing Billy or Frank.

For the record I think Billy is generally more skilled and talented than Frank and he's still not even close to S2 Ollie level unless he's ready to take on a dozen or two mercenaries with nothing but his bare hands like it's nothing. If Joe can possibly even be mentioned in the same breath as S2 Ollie, that makes Joe better than Billy. And S6 Ollie fodderized Joe.

This thread seems like a clear mismatch to me in Green Arrow's favor.

@jashro44: Also I would interpret both Joe and S2 Oliver's fights with Mirakuru Deathstroke differently. You say Deathstroke was toying with Oliver. I say, Oliver was at an immense psychological disadvantage, with Slade already being the one man on the Earth that he fears, then having Slade effortlessly infiltrate his bunker and make short work of his friends, and Oliver being forced to take on a fully armed and armored Slade while in his street clothes. Remember: the hood makes Oliver stronger. We know that for a fact after season 5, and it had already been implied a few times in season 1. Yet despite all these disadvantages, and facing not only a fighter more skilled than himself, but also with super soldier strength and speed? I'm surprised Oliver lasted longer than even 1 second. So 13 is quite an achievement.

Joe's fight with Slade was more cushy. He wasn't afraid. They were just sparring and having fun, and Slade wasn't wearing armor. So all these psychological factors inhibiting Oliver weren't a factor for Joe, he was fully confident. Joe also isn't psychologically dependent on a hood in order to fight at his maximum potential, as far as we know, so there's just a lot of small details which plagued Oliver that don't impact him. And with all that said, he was fighting a Slade who I would argue was actually less efficient due to his inattention and mental distress. The Deathstroke who Oliver fought was in his right mind and tactical. He wasn't trying to kill Oliver, but he also wasn't fighting gently. He was trying to put Oliver down, hard. Against Joe, he was having PTSD flashbacks, but never made one serious move to actually put Joe down.

What Joe did is still impressive though, so that's why I said he might be relative to S2 Ollie, and then years later by the time he fights depowered Slade in the present, he's more definitively on par with End of S2 Ollie. It all adds up consistently if you ask me, and it all leads back to Oliver stomping Billy and Frank.

@the_hajduk: I think your reaching on the hood making Oliver stronger. Kovar was taunting Oliver when he made that statement. Slade never needed his armor to fight Oliver either. Nothing implies Oliver was physiologically hindered.

But Talia said as much too, as did Oliver himself. He couldn't bring out his full killer instincts without the hood. Remember the amazing behind-his-head arrow catch? Talia said the reason he can do that is because the man who lives in darkness is never without sight. It's literally a textbook split personality and psychological dependence on the hood. And people have been theorizing this exact thing for years before S5.

@the_hajduk:

I forget, when did Oliver stomp Joe?

@the_hajduk: thanks

Your welcome. Thoughts on the battle?

@the_hajduk: Who has theorized Oliver being stronger with the hood? I don't post on arrow message boards so I have no clue what your talking about. Regardless we've seen Oliver kill people without the hood a few times. Its true that Oliver wears the hood to justify his actions but I don't think it literally makes him stronger or more skilled....

I'll just agree to disagree.

It's just an idea that I know I've seen on Reddit specifically before. S1 implied it as the case if you ask me because there's always a clear difference in performance between Oliver Queen and The Hood. Oliver Queen could have some serious struggles with guys barely above canon fodder, like Mr. Blank and the unnamed assassin from 1x12. These are guys that would not last 10 seconds if they were facing The Hood. I remember people on Comic Vine used to say that this might be why Oliver lost to Ra's on the mountain, and in reality, he was always more skilled (I remember this because you can imagine how much the idea pissed me off). This was back when Arrow was still derivative of Batman, so I think that's why the idea came up, because Bruce Wayne had the same concept going on in Year One (he had the training, but couldn't figure out how he was actually going to fight crime. His first night out in street clothes, he fought hookers and nearly got killed by the police. The Batsuit and identity and motivation allowed him to become a better crimefighter) Now with season 5, Talia, Oliver, and Anatoly all implied that Oliver becomes better at what he does when he wears the hood. Again, I refer you to the arrow catch feat, "The man who lives in darkness is never without eyes."

I always have a hard time imagining one skilled character beating two skilled characters, especially if the team has weapons and they fight in such close proximity.

Oliver is much stronger, faster, and more skilled than them though, and his feats against Bronze Tiger/China White, Spartan/Speedy/White Canary, and Cupid/China White seal the deal.

He should win in a very tough fight.

Yeah, Oliver

@rbt: Why not?