MCU: Frank Castle (aka Punisher) vs T'Challa (aka Black Panther)

T'Challa is herb-less.

Both combatants are armed with combat knives. (T'Challa gets one he would be familiar with, Frank gets one he would be familiar with)

Morals off.

Takes place in Wakandan challenge area.

Who wins?

T'Challa in a good fight. M'Baku showed better strength feats than Frank, and I'd say slightly better skill too considering he stabbed T'Challa and was sending people flying with his strikes in the final battle. Plus T'Challa is just more skilled thank Frank. Frank would cause some damage but he'd eventually end up like M'Baku

T'Challa fairly easily

Frank in a really tough fight. I think his damage soak and tenacity is enough to get him the win.

@angeljax: I don't think any powerless human can beat Frank fairly easily, he's too much of a tank. He shrugs off bullets and knives, and even hits from a peak human strength guy like Wilson Fisk. He's tough for anyone to put down.

@jayc1324: Melinda May, Grant Ward, Bobbi Morse, Daisy Johnson (depowered), Natasha Romanoff, Sara Lance, Oliver Queen, etc. Can all beat Frank with minimal effort. Maybe even stomp him to be frank (no pun intended), and so can many other powerless human characters.

franks pain tolarance put him a level above depowered T'Challa

T'Challa. Frank isn't TWS level in skill, assuming T'Challa is a standard MCU peak human without his powers, which is a fair assumption, he wins.

Yeah I disagree with all of that. Complete disrespect of Frank's skills and physicals. If Daredevil can't solidly defeat him, none of those other MCU characters can. Frank is just as strong and tanky as Ward, and fast enough to keep up with DD, who casually flips through automatic gunfire at close range. He could hold his own against Ward for a long time if not get a win, as well as all those other characters.

And Frank is around Diggle level, who would not get stomped by Oliver.

T'Challa in a decent fight. He's stronger, more skilled and has comparable pain tolerance / damage soak.

T'Challa.

T’challa

T'Challa wins.

frank isn't even that skilled judging from his fight with carson wolf, billy russo etc.his martial art skill seems basic asf. t'challa even while depowered stomp

MCU Frank wins, eventually. All of T'Challa feats in MCU are with his gear. (Have not seen the movie yet) Frank just has too many durability feats and knife wielding feats. Oh damn those durability feats are haunting!

@stunnersix: you shouldnt have even commented if you havent seent he movie, this is herb-less Tchalla, which has only been seen in the BP movie bud

T'Challa wins this one. Frank is tough as nails but he doesn't have the skill to win here. T'Challa beat M'Baku who is much stronger than Frank and he temporarily had the upper hand on Killmonger who is much more skilled than Frank.

Morals off Frank goes over the falls.

I would actually say Frank.

T'Challa would likely win in the early stages and then drop his guard like he did with KM.

What makes T'Challa more skilled than Frank? With the herb, certainly. T'Challa confirmed that it enhances his instincts. That's in addition to the obvious enhancements to coordination, agility, reflexes, endurance, and balance. With the herb, he's more skilled than the Winter Soldier, and about on par with Captain America.

But without the herb? All T'Challa did was barely beat a Fisk-equivalent, then lose to a man with the same level of training as Frank. This puts human T'Challa solidly at late S1/early S2 Daredevil level.

That's how I'm seeing things, at least. If you are seeing them differently, you can explain and I might be persuaded to agree with you.

M’Baku is stronger and more skilled than Fisk, that’s not up for debate. T’Challa overpowered and beat him with a critical injury when he stopped holding back, I’m giving this fight to him. Once he sees Frank is really vicious, he might even put him in a submission hold to put one of his arms out of commission.

@thebeardofzues: Why would T’Challa drop his guard in a fight to the death with a guy who just got through saying a speech about how he trained his whole life to kill him?

@thevivas: Even with M'baku T'Challa was trying to take the surrender route over the kill route.

Frank isn't soooo much lower than T'challa without herb, I can see him wining this.

T'Challa beat a more skilled and agile Fisk. M'Baku was an actual warrior and leader of a tribe so I think that is fair to say. Daredevil struggled with a slow, unskilled Fisk. That alone already puts T'Challa above season 1 Matt, instead of equal to him as you say, imo.

Now in terms of Killmonger, I think he was more skilled than Frank because he trained himself with the blades/swords he used when he beat T'Challa. You don't learn that stuff in the military. He clearly self-trained to be able to use those weapons effectively, and said he had prepared his whole life for the moment he fought T'Challa. So essentially he has Frank's training, and then some. And people seem to forget that T'Challa did have Erik in a position when he could have killed him, but chose not to. He asked him to yield, but Erik got up instead and eventually won the fight. I think they are perfectly equal to each other. One could beat the other at any point at any time. This puts T'Challa above Frank.

@thebeardofzues: That’s not him dropping his guard though.

@thevivas: It's him giving both M'baku and KM longer to fight back though.

And Frank is good at fighting threw that kind of thing.

Killmonger and Frank do not have the same level of training. Frank is highly trained, don't get me wrong, but Killmonger has elite training and a degree from MIT. Frank can take out rooms full of goons, Killmonger can take over and destabilize governments. They're on two different tiers. I would agree with herbless T'Challa being roughly late S1/early S2 Daredevil level though.

M'baku shouldn't be compared to Fisk until Fisk gets more feats. On paper m'baku should be supioer to Fisk and arguably has better strength feats. And unlike Fisk he displayed the ability to wreck fodder without getting tagged. I would also argue the war dogs are supioer to street thugs.

@thebeardofzues: Yeah because his solution isn’t just “kill anyone who fights against me”.

Him dropping his guard would actually be him lowering his shield or allowing Killmonger to cut him, not looking to spare a tribal leader because his people need him or giving his cousin who he knows was rightfully wronged a chance to work things out peacefully.

T’Challa

I forgot that part.

Yea T'challa should win he would have no reason to hold back on frank.

T'Challa quite solidly.

I could potentially see Frank taking the win. He is able to take an insane amount of punishment and he’s able to hold his own against MCU Daredevil.

To be frank I don't see M'Baku as skilled at all. Almost all of his moves were huge, sweeping, and blatantly telegraphed. He might have been the leader of Wakanda's least advanced tribe, but nobody ever actually said that he was skilled. He's probably the best warrior because he has freakish metahuman strength.

I mean this obviously isn't skillful, T'Challa has a perfect opportunity to gut or cripple M'Baku after almost every swing. His windups are huge and his recovery periods are huger. The only reason T'Challa doesn't end this immediately is because of morals. The traditional, brutal 'combat till death or yield' actually put the bloodlusted and intimidating M'Baku at a large advantage, and the pacifistic T'Challa in a very stressful and difficult circumstance. That's why I think the actual conflict of the fight wasn't beating M'Baku, it was beating him without having to kill him, because the whole point of the otherwise totally random fanservice fight, was to emphasize T'Challa's qualities as a king, being kind and selfless, and foreshadowing his eventual decision to open Wakanda up to the rest of the world, because showing M'Baku mercy was T'Challa's first sign of discarding Wakandan tradition and being more progressive.

Now let's look at Fisk. You call Fisk slow and M'Baku agile. I think the evidence can speak for itself on this one. The gif above obviously shows somebody who is slow and predictable, while the two gifs below show somebody smart and brutal.

Gallery

M'Baku is more experienced than Fisk, but that doesn't necessarily make him a skilled fighter, his actual moves tell us that he isn't. He's brutish and seems to possess no tactical wit, yet at the same time he is theatrical and arrogant and treats the combat trial like a sport. Fisk has no training, but he's actually made completely unpredictable by his Brobdingnagian fury. Oftentimes, the deadliest style known to man isn't anything we actually came up with. It's pure natural rage. And Fisk's rage is downright unparalleled.

But Fisk is also a total genius and M'Baku... isn't, and I think that is also reflected in their fighting styles. No matter how much fury possesses Fisk, he still fights smart. Daredevil is the only person in this equation who can casually arrow time and weave through a stream of automatic gunfire, and Fisk is using his brains in order to get a hold of him. I mean, everyone is attributing the stab to M'Baku's skill, but actually T'Challa was on the verge of passing out and just carelessly stood right into it. Yet he was still able to catch it before it went deep enough to even be significant.

If we compared Fisk and M'Baku I think they would come out relatively even. Fisk is smarter, has rage, unrelenting, more intimidating, more motivated and better damage soak. M'Baku has better striking feats but only when he is aided by big clubs and other weapons. Their strength is probably around even. I'm fine if you think M'Baku is ultimately a bit better than Fisk, as long as we agree that they are relative.

As for Killmonger, it is certainly possible that he has better training than Frank. That isn't everything though, honestly I just see Frank as a stronger man, and between their respective freakish capacities for violence, Frank's is the more freakish. I mean it makes sense if we scale Fisk to M'Baku and therefore T'Challa to early S2 Daredevil, because Erik beat T'Challa and Frank beat early S2 Daredevil. It all fits, and Frank and Erik end up on par.

Frank

I can see Frank winning.

@the_hajduk:

M'baku was taking advantage of his strength with powerful windups. We see later in the fight when T'challa blocks M'baku's swing with his shield he goes flying and loses his weapons as a result. We see in your own gif that when M'baku has ot make a quick transition to the pointy end of his stick he does so:

T'challa being on the verge of passing out is a credit to M'baku's skill. Regardless in the past we've agreed that there is more to these fights than just choreography and feats but you have to look at the portrayal of the characters. Again if he weren't a skillful warrior and were just some brute than he wouldn't have a chance against the war dogs and there vibranium weapons and greater technology. Not to mention the war dogs themselves were going toe to toe with Dora Milje. Okoye was able to flip onto a tiny piece of metal debris when Klaue blew up the car so they clearly have more training than your typical soldier. In addition to that we saw Okoye plus 3 other members of the dora take on Killmonger, and actually had him pinned before he over powered them with his kinetic blast. So the Wakandians are all warriors and they do have impressive feats and technology. Yet M'baku was on the battle field with these other warriors (and did not have the benefit of there technology) and was beating them without getting tagged. Raw strength would not be enough to avoid getting tagged.

I don't care if people think Frank wins (because I've realized I can't speak intelligently on him) but M'baku is not just a brute and should not be though of that way.

@jashro44:

M'baku was taking advantage of his strength with powerful windups. We see later in the fight when T'challa blocks M'baku's swing with his shield he goes flying and loses his weapons as a result. We see in your own gif that when M'baku has ot make a quick transition to the pointy end of his stick he does so:

M'Baku is not skilled if the only thing which kept him from being skewered as soon as the fight began was T'Challa's morals. Removing T'Challa's weapons was not a result of M'Baku's skill, it was because T'Challa had barely even been fighting back.

I see M'Baku as a fighter who relies a lot on intimidation and bloodlust. He's literally Clubber Lang. Fisk was the same way. These traits were powerful enough to make even T'Challa falter (before his inevitable victory) which is impressive, and makes M'Baku a dangerous fighter, but there's nothing about his character or his fighting style which implies actual, trained, technical, martial arts skill.

He's the leader of the least advanced tribe and he was trained to fight like a gorilla... which is strength, fury, and intimidation, not skill or precision.

In order for M'Baku to be skilled, you have to show me confirmation. A statement, a neat technique he used once, anything. Presumptions and how it works in the comics aren't good enough, because I see more indication that the director and writers and choreographers of the actual movie, all saw M'Baku as an inhuman brute.

T'challa being on the verge of passing out is a credit to M'baku's skill.

I don't think that crushing T'Challa's ribs with a bear hug qualifies as skill. It's more like the very definition of a brute. Not to mention, the context that has permeated every single one of your points in M'Baku's favor, the fact that T'Challa had over a dozen opportunities to effortlessly dismember M'Baku during one of his excruciatingly long recovery periods, but just chose not to.

M'Baku never came close to rivaling T'Challa on a skill level. It was all his massive strength, intimidation, and morals (M'Baku being bloodthirsty and at the top of his game while T'Challa was in a very difficult moral situation).

Again if he weren't a skillful warrior and were just some brute than he wouldn't have a chance against the war dogs and there vibranium weapons and greater technology... M'baku was on the battle field with these other warriors (and did not have the benefit of there technology) and was beating them without getting tagged. Raw strength would not be enough to avoid getting tagged.

This is literally all of M'Baku's screentime during the final battle:

Gallery

He's not doing anything besides taking haphazard swings and bullying people. Failing to respond to the rhino is actually a pretty bad showing of awareness, M'Baku is kind of an idiot. Apparently he didn't have anyone reminding him not to freeze like T'Challa did, but I can't accept somebody this unaware as being a skilled fighter.

M'baku is not just a brute and should not be though of that way.

Just show me M'Baku doing something skillful.

FYI I do think Fisk and M'Baku are both immensely dangerous fighters among peak humans, and they would both beat Frank in H2H.

@the_hajduk:

M'Baku is not skilled if the only thing which kept him from being skewered as soon as the fight began was T'Challa's morals. Removing T'Challa's weapons was not a result of M'Baku's skill, it was because T'Challa had barely even been fighting back.

Same could be said about his fight with Killmonger. T'challa scratched him and knocked him down and asked Killmonger to yield.

I see M'Baku as a fighter who relies a lot on intimidation and bloodlust. He's literally Clubber Lang. Fisk was the same way. These traits were powerful enough to make even T'Challa falter (before his inevitable victory) which is impressive, and makes M'Baku a dangerous fighter, but there's nothing about his character or his fighting style which implies actual, trained, technical, martial arts skill.

He's the leader of the least advanced tribe and he was trained to fight like a gorilla... which is strength, fury, and intimidation, not skill or precision.

He does rely on those methods however Winston Duke said M'baku is "strong and able" and that he "knows his weapon":

“[I was] lifting things, running, doing different routines to create this character that didn’t look aesthetically like he’s a gym head,” he explained. “He’s working out outside, he’s running, he’s picking up rocks maybe, pushing trees, or something. He’s a strong man, and he uses his weapon. He’s strong and he’s able because he knows his weapon. He’s not doing curls.”

https://www.essence.com/celebrity/black-panther-winston-duke-mbaku-facts

He also did have to train with fight choreographers. Also Winston Duke pretty much confirmed Wakanda is a warrior society. Even Shuri is apparently a warrior, despite the fact that we only saw her as a scientist in the film:

Exactly. Exactly. I think he also deeply respects T’Challa. From that first waterfall scene, he learns that T’Challa is competent and that he’s a great, bold warrior. I feel like it’s that old warrior’s understanding of, once we cross swords, once we cross weapons, I learn who my opponent is. Once we exchange blows, I know what kind of person you are. To some degree, the entirety of Wakanda is a warrior society. The women are warriors, the men are warriors. Everyone comes away able. You might look at Shuri and think she’s quite cerebral, but she’s a warrior. She’s a fighter.

http://ew.com/movies/2018/02/21/black-panther-winston-duke-mbaku-insight-photos/

In order for M'Baku to be skilled, you have to show me confirmation. A statement, a neat technique he used once, anything. Presumptions and how it works in the comics aren't good enough, because I see more indication that the director and writers and choreographers of the actual movie, all saw M'Baku as an inhuman brute.

I just did above but I don't see what is wrong with basing our beliefs on the lore in the comics. I mean the MCU is based around the comics. While I don't believe characters should inherit there feats from there 616 counterparts I don't see what is wrong with assuming there meant to be basically the same or similar on paper unless there is something that confirms otherwise.

He's not doing anything besides taking haphazard swings and bullying people. Failing to respond to the rhino is actually a pretty bad showing of awareness, M'Baku is kind of an idiot. Apparently he didn't have anyone reminding him not to freeze like T'Challa did, but I can't accept somebody this unaware as being a skilled fighter.

M'baku is actually not an idiot. Winston Duke actually said one of the things that makes M'baku an interesting character is that he is always thinking and he perpetrates a stereotype to take advantage of it:

“All those things really told me that this guy’s deeply introspective and this guy’s deeply aware of himself, and how people perceive him. And he has agency because of that. He can use that and wield that to his advantage. You know what I mean? And I think that’s what’s really brilliant about this M’Baku, is he’s a thinking M’Baku. He’s a thinking, acting M’Baku who has fun and can find joy in all kinds of situations. He has tactics. So he knows how to intimidate. He knows how to make an appearance and use his size and stature, but he’s not what you think. That’s what I wanted to bring across, that he’s contemplative.”

http://ew.com/movies/2018/02/21/black-panther-winston-duke-mbaku-insight-photos/

FYI I do think Fisk and M'Baku are both immensely dangerous fighters among peak humans, and they would both beat Frank in H2H.

OK. As I said I don't really know much about MCU Punisher so no comment on the actual fight.

Frank.

@jashro44:

Same could be said about his fight with Killmonger. T'challa scratched him and knocked him down and asked Killmonger to yield.

T'Challa only had one opportunity to take a killing stroke on Erik, not an opportunity after nearly every attack. Otherwise, Erik took T'Challa apart, and they were almost dead even in their second fight, so I would call them about equals in the end.

Now all those quotes from Winston Duke are actually very interesting and insightful, but I don't think they are bold enough to qualify M'Baku as a master fighter. Duke literally just said M'Baku was "able." Which... isn't an amazing appraisal. No shit he's able, so is Fisk. Fisk actually has better moves and tactics though, he's a total genius, and even if M'Baku is more contemplative than I assumed, Fisk still outshines him in every one of those categories.

Gallery

Looking at these gifs, I actually don't believe Fisk would be incapacitated by the legchoke T'Challa used on M'Baku. Between Matt and T'Challa, Matt is the only one who can casually arrow time, weave through a stream of automatic gunfire, and his forearms shattered a 2x4 on impact so he's not weak either.

Fisk is certainly more resilient and durable than M'Baku.

@the_hajduk:

T'Challa only had one opportunity to take a killing stroke on Erik, not an opportunity after nearly every attack. Otherwise, Erik took T'Challa apart, and they were almost dead even in their second fight, so I would call them about equals in the end.

T'challa didn't have a chance after every swing. He would have given M'baku a warning scratch.

Now all those quotes from Winston Duke are actually very interesting and insightful, but I don't think they are bold enough to qualify M'Baku as a master fighter. Duke literally just said M'Baku was "able." Which... isn't an amazing appraisal. No shit he's able, so is Fisk. Fisk actually has better moves and tactics though, he's a total genius, and even if M'Baku is more contemplative than I assumed, Fisk still outshines him in every one of those categories.

The reason I posted the quote was to show M'baku knows his weapon. He wouldn't know how to wield his weapon if he were a brute. Same reason I posted the quote confirming Wakanda is a warrior society. His skill level can only be determined by his feats obviously. So far all we have is him beating up fodder and his fight with T'challa (who himself depends on how capable M'baku is, other than showing good precision with his weapon).

Right now he doesn't have the feats to be labeled a master but I think its fair to say he isn't a brute either and he does have some skill. He is probably getting feats in infinity war as it looks like the Wakandains will be fighting super human aliens.

Looking at these gifs, I actually don't believe Fisk would be incapacitated by the legchoke T'Challa used on M'Baku. Between Matt and T'Challa, Matt is the only one who can casually arrow time, weave through a stream of automatic gunfire, and his forearms shattered a 2x4 on impact so he's not weak either.

T'challa has 2 fights when he was depowered. Obviously he isn't going to have the physical feats Matt has. All though since M'baku is a more skilled wilson fisk (you know...being an actual warrior and all), I don't see why he can't beat Fisk.

Fisk is certainly more resilient and durable than M'Baku.

Based on showings...

@jashro44: Nice quotes about M’Baku. If you don’t mind I’ll use them in BP’s RT for hype and context about T’Challa’s skill.

Sure no problem.

@jashro44:

T'challa didn't have a chance to stab M'Balu after every swing. He would have given M'baku a warning scratch.

How can you possibly know that? Just because he later acted that way with Erik does not mean he definitely would have done the exact same thing in a situation that was much more stressful for him. You're telling me there aren't a ton of openings left during this assault?

The worst is when T'Challa ducks and readies his sword like he's gonna strike the legs, but I guess he decides at the last second not to maim M'Baku and just dodges instead.

But besides that, only serious swordsman or fencer would have just stabbed M'Baku right before his opening swing, during that enormous, telegraphed windup that left him utterly exposed for like two solid seconds.

M'Baku followed that up with another huge, easily dodgeable overhead smash, where T'Challa had another opportunity to stab.

The reason I posted the quote was to show M'baku knows his weapon. He wouldn't know how to wield his weapon if he were a brute.

You've definitely proven that M'Baku is able and not an amateur, but that's it. And guess what; Fisk is obviously able to. I already explained how oftentimes, the deadliest fighting style known to man is rage. So what makes M'Baku a better fighter than Fisk? Duke's comments aren't enough for me to rank M'Baku more than just proficient.

He is probably getting feats in infinity war as it looks like the Wakandains will be fighting super human aliens.

If it's the same as how he fought vibranium tech Wakandans, where he just swung around haphazardly and nobody tagged him, then he still won't be a skilled fighter. It will all come down to intimidation, strength, and PIS.

T'challa has 2 fights when he was depowered. Obviously he isn't going to have the physical feats Matt has. All though since M'baku is a more skilled wilson fisk (you know...being an actual warrior and all), I don't see why he can't beat Fisk.

Isn't that the whole point? We judge by feats, in addition to statements, hints, logic, etc. M'Baku not having a lot of screentime isn't an excuse to just imagine he's however skilled we might want him to be. If all he's displayed is proficient brawling, then that's all he is. Fisk is the same. Again he might not be a "warrior", but all that really means is M'Baku is more experienced. Fisk evens that out with his aforementioned Brobdingnagian rage.

A lot of depowered T'Challa threads here lately.

@the_hajduk:

How can you possibly know that? Just because he later acted that way with Erik does not mean he definitely would have done the exact same thing in a situation that was much more stressful for him. You're telling me there aren't a ton of openings left during this assault?

No more than we see in other comic book fights.

The worst is when T'Challa ducks and readies his sword like he's gonna strike the legs, but I guess he decides at the last second not to maim M'Baku and just dodges instead.

When was this? It looks like T'challa was going to cut him but than M'baku swung his stick.

But besides that, only serious swordsman or fencer would have just stabbed M'Baku right before his opening swing, during that enormous, telegraphed windup that left him utterly exposed for like two solid seconds.

Any serious fencer or ultimate fighter would beat these characters in a fight because there just actors.

You've definitely proven that M'Baku is able and not an amateur, but that's it. And guess what; Fisk is obviously able to. I already explained how oftentimes, the deadliest fighting style known to man is rage. So what makes M'Baku a better fighter than Fisk? Duke's comments aren't enough for me to rank M'Baku more than just proficient.

Because he is an actual warrior who practices combat and has shown the ability to dispatch multiple enemies at a time without getting touched. Unlike Fisk who got tagged by Lehland for example. M'baku may not be a master tier character but he has some degree of fighting skills. Those fighting skills haven't been fully explored yet which is the one thing I am arguing.

If it's the same as how he fought vibranium tech Wakandans, where he just swung around haphazardly and nobody tagged him, then he still won't be a skilled fighter. It will all come down to intimidation, strength, and PIS.

This is the problem. Your dismissing the characters one feat as PIS because it doesn't fit your head canon when my whole point is that the character was skilled enough to avoid being tagged. Its the same argument I make when people argue CW Green arrow is unskilled because of his choreography.

Isn't that the whole point? We judge by feats, in addition to statements, hints, logic, etc.

Yes the key word being logic. Why would someone who is the leader of the Jabbari tribe not be a skilled warrior? Why would one of the tribal leaders not be a skilled warrior (or have someone at there side who is a capable warrior?) What reason is there to assume that M'baku being the second best warrior in Wakanda (which is pretty much his shtick in the comics) is any different in the MCU?

M'Baku not having a lot of screentime isn't an excuse to just imagine he's however skilled we might want him to be.

I am not arguing him to be as skilled as I want to be. Your the one above who claimed that PIS was a factor for him being untagged in the big battle. Your the one who is trying to equate Fisk and M'baku because you have an idea how skilled you want M'baku to be. I never claimed M'baku was some master fighter, just that he was actually proficient when fighting and he has some level of unexplored skill.

OMG I know! Why?!?! His one feat is beating an unestablished fighter with impressive strength feats! I'm so tired talking about M'baku and his two feats!

@jashro44: how come you never post in live action Spider-Man threads?

I haven't really noticed them and for some reason I thought homecoming was just decent (I don't know why, I can't think of any real flaws). Maybe its because this is our 3rd spider-man reboot so it just didn't feel special the way black panther does. Plus every every thread you have to deal with "Spider-man was tagged by shocker so he sucks" or people just dismiss spider-mans fight with Bucky as Bucky throwing one punch and than jumping in front of a kick to protect Sam even though its pretty clear spider-man was portrayed as superior in that encounter.

I don't post in the other live action threads because the Rami movies were forever ago and I don't remember a lot of feats (because I watched them before I even joined comicvine so I wasn't looking for feats), and I didn't like the second amazing spider-man and could never finish it. Even though I like spider-man from the comics more than black panther I haven't had much interest to debate the movies.