MCU: Defenders vs. Agents

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BladeOfFury

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  • Luke Cage, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Iron Fist vs. Jeffrey Mace, Grant Ward, Melinda May, and Bobbi Morse
  • Unarmed fight, no chi
  • Fight on a deserted street of Hell's Kitchen

Who wins?

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HeroUp2112

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I don't know feats/stats for Mace so I can't really weigh in on this. I have no idea how Luke and/or Jessica would fare against him. (He's the new SHIELD leader guy right? I haven't watched in awhile)

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AngelJax

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Ward, Bobbi and May can handle Matt, Danny and Jessica fairly easily. The real issue would be Luke. I think Mace has the stats and skill to contend with him, but I'm not too sure that his striking can take him down.

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RBT

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Defenders. Don't see Mace putting down Luke, so he'll likely solo.

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mexcomics2078

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Defenders. Luke as MVP

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deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4

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Defenders take it easily.

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DSTREET45

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Defenders.

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deactivated-5bb6a6f86dc65

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Defenders borderline stomp because of Luke's durability.

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BladeOfFury

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@heroup2112: @rbt: @_kingoflatveria:

Mace shouldn't be underestimated.

He can no-sell Melinda May hitting him with a metal staff, casually lift her up with one hand, and one-shot her with a bang against the wall:

He can trade blows with Ghost Rider, and wasn't bloodied after over a dozen consecutive punches to the face. Ghost Rider has just broken the Shield containment module, a cell sturdy enough to restrain Inhumans like Lash and Quake.

Loading Video...

He is much more skilled than Luke as well.

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HeroUp2112

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#11  Edited By HeroUp2112

@bladeoffury said:

@heroup2112: @rbt: @_kingoflatveria:

Mace shouldn't be underestimated.

He can no-sell Melinda May hitting him with a metal staff, casually lift her up with one hand, and one-shot her with a bang against the wall:

No Caption Provided

He can trade blows with Ghost Rider, and wasn't bloodied after over a dozen consecutive punches to the face. Ghost Rider has just broken the Shield containment module, a cell sturdy enough to restrain Inhumans like Lash and Quake.

Loading Video...

He is much more skilled than Luke as well.

Hmmmm, I wonder how he'd do against a full on Iron Fist punch...or that door for that matter? It's clear he could trade blows with Luke, and is substantially better trained. Jessica would get waxed by this guy in a second.

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RBT

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@bladeoffury: I guess it comes down to Mace vs Luke. Whoever wins walks through the other team.

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alowci

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Agents stomp. Bobbi or May could solo.

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deactivated-5add3922b3476

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Agents. It will be 4v1 eventually. I don't know how Luke deals with that.

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The_Justiciar

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@alowci said:

Agents stomp. Bobbi or May could solo.

How do they put down Luke in h2h?

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@alowci said:

Agents stomp. Bobbi or May could solo.

Bobbi or May aren't even beating Matt solo

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@_kingoflatveria: Bobbi can beat Matt solos, it's a tough fight, but she can pull it off.

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The_Justiciar

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@_kingoflatveria: Bobbi is a combatant I'd put above Matt in h2h.

Matt took on Bakuto and Murakami in h2h? Bobbi took on Ward and Kara (both of whom are more established than Matt's foes) after being tortured for hours.

Matt took on Black Sky, a highly skilled & enhanced warrior? Bobbi took on Vin-Tak, a Kree warrior who bested Lady Sif.

Matt has at most taken out 6 or so Hand ninja in h2h, Bobbi has an offscreen feat of taking down 12 armed HYDRA agents in a room with her batons. She has also taken out 4-5 of the best mercenaries on the planet, let by the renowned Marcus Scarlotti.

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@the_magister:

Bobbi is a combatant I'd put above Matt in h2h.

I don't :p

Matt took on Bakuto and Murakami in h2h? Bobbi took on Ward and Kara (both of whom are more established than Matt's foes) after being tortured for hours.

I rank Bakuto above Kara, Ward is a skill less brute so he doesn't count either.

Matt took on Black Sky, a highly skilled & enhanced warrior? Bobbi took on Vin-Tak, a Kree warrior who bested Lady Sif.

Unpopular opinion: Elektra beats Vin tak Matt was evading sword swings from an armed opponent who was bullet timing an episode ago. I rank that a bit above beating Sif, added the fact that while strong Sif didn't show great skill.

Matt has at most taken out 6 or so Hand ninja in h2h, Bobbi has an offscreen feat of taking down 12 armed HYDRA agents in a room with her batons. She has also taken out 4-5 of the best mercenaries on the planet, let by the renowned Marcus Scarlotti.

Didn't see that feat so can't comment.

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The_Justiciar

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#20  Edited By The_Justiciar

@_kingoflatveria said:

I rank Bakuto above Kara, Ward is a skill less brute so he doesn't count either.

You can't be serious. The guy who's taken on soldiers, SHIELD agents, and supersoldiers with cqc techniques is a brute? C'mon. I think that's your way of weaseling out of the fact that Matt has never taken on two established fighters while being NOWHERE NEAR peak performance levels.

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Batvibe12

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Defenders by a slight.

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@the_magister: I was acct. referring to your meme you created with Bucky beingskill-less lol

Ward's good but the only area he really compares to Matt is strength. Matt's had a solid advantage in every area baring that ever since Season 2

Even if we consider Bobbi more skilled than Matt via established fighters Matt's still solidly more durable and faster

I really don't see any of the agents performing something like this.

added the fact that Matt's also pretty damn hard to put down

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The_Justiciar

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#23  Edited By The_Justiciar

@_kingoflatveria: Bucky is a skill-less brute. My bad, should've picked up on the joke. Imo Ward is stronger, I think @angeljax pointed out that stylistically, Ward is depicted as much more of a physical beast than Matt. Often casually shoving aside or one-shotting muscular security guards, throwing Melinda May (who has respectable strength feats herself) around like a ragdoll. I don't think Matt has used his physicals as efficiently as Ward, but Matt makes up for that by being more technically gifted.

I'll get to your other points in a bit, I am in class and I don't want the prof to catch me debating lol

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Arcus1

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@_kingoflatveria: Bobbi is a combatant I'd put above Matt in h2h.

Matt took on Bakuto and Murakami in h2h? Bobbi took on Ward and Kara (both of whom are more established than Matt's foes) after being tortured for hours.

Matt took on Black Sky, a highly skilled & enhanced warrior? Bobbi took on Vin-Tak, a Kree warrior who bested Lady Sif.

Matt has at most taken out 6 or so Hand ninja in h2h, Bobbi has an offscreen feat of taking down 12 armed HYDRA agents in a room with her batons. She has also taken out 4-5 of the best mercenaries on the planet, let by the renowned Marcus Scarlotti.

Bobbi also lost her fight with Ward and Kara. Kara's established, sure, but I'd be inclined to put Bakuto or Murakami above her.

Black Sky's more skilled than Vin Tak, way better by strictly feats

Bobbi didn't take out 12 agents. She went in to engage them, and then Mack and Hunter (I think it was those two) came in right behind her.

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plotweapon16255

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#26  Edited By plotweapon16255

Defenders

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AngelJax

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@arcus1: Bobbi was also tortured and even then was still implied to have won if she hadn't spent too much time brutalizing Kara. Compared to Matt, who was otherwise was in perfect condition and was on the losing end of his fight.

Sure by feats, though logically, I think one would be crazy to put Elektra above an Elite Asgardian Warrior with thousands years of experience under her belt.

She took them out. Hunter and Mack followed behind her but they didn't help her. You hear Bobbi grunting and her staves making impact. She did all of the work.

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AngelJax

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@alowci said:

Agents stomp. Bobbi or May could solo.

Bobbi or May aren't even beating Matt solo

Bobbi beats Matt on her own. Fight me.

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Arcus1

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@angeljax said:

@arcus1: Bobbi was also tortured and even then was still implied to have won if she hadn't spent too much time brutalizing Kara. Compared to Matt, who was otherwise was in perfect condition and was on the losing end of his fight.

Sure by feats, though logically, I think one would be crazy to put Elektra above an Elite Asgardian Warrior with thousands years of experience under her belt.

She took them out. Hunter and Mack followed behind her but they didn't help her. You hear Bobbi grunting and her staves making impact. She did all of the work.

Wait, how was she implied to have won? She very clearly lost, certainly didn't somehow do better than Matt, who was doing fine

Vin Tak's not an elite Asgardian warrior with thousands of years of experience (that's who I was comparing Elektra to). And if you really wanna go with that logic, then CW Ra's beats any of the agents, but iirc you would argue otherwise

So we hear Bobbi fighting...how does that mean Mack and Hunter didn't fight any once they joined? All that means is that Bobbi started engaging the agents before the guys joined her. I don't remember there being anything to support the idea of her taking all of them out solo

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BladeOfFury

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@bladeoffury said:

@_kingoflatveria: You have way too many CaVs. Are you like always on the vine?

Sadly , yes

I'm addicted to this site lol. My post count's been going up to fast. Also I only have 4

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AngelJax

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#33  Edited By AngelJax

@arcus1: Pardon me, implied to would've won. I honestly think it's clear had not Kara stepped in with that gun, Bobbi would've came out on top.

Meh, Ra's is too unrealistic. I can't ever take him seriously in battles.

Watch the scene again, Mack's giving a speech about how they need to be as fast and covert as possible and Bobbi just interrupts him and gets the job done because she knows she can. Even when we cut back we see Bobbi taking out one last agent and Mack and Hunter are just standing there watching.

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Arcus1

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@angeljax said:

@arcus1: Pardon me, implied to would've won. I honestly think it's clear had not Kara stepped in with that gun, Bobbi would've came out on top.

Meh, Ra's is too unrealistic. I can't ever take him seriously in battles.

Watch the scene again, Mack's giving a speech about how they need to be as fast and covert as possible and Bobbi just interrupts him and gets the job done because she knows she can. Even when we cut back we see Bobbi taking out one last agent and Mack and Hunter just standing there watching.

Oh, well if we're talking just against Ward, then she might've won. Bobbi vs Kara/Ward was being referenced in comparison to Matt vs Bakuto/Murakami, so that's what I was talking about

But a 2000 year old alien warrior is realistic? The same logic would apply to guys like Bakuto and Murakami, by logic they should be at least comparable to the agents.

Do you have a clip of the scene or anything? Because I remember watching it a while back, thinking I was gonna get a great feat for Bobbi, and being disappointed because Mack and Hunter clearly went in to join her. Seems highly unlikely that they would've just stood around watching her take on 12 guys solo. Them not fighting when Bobbi was finishing just means Bobbi took care of the last agent there was. I'm gonna need some strong evidence to believe Mack and Hunter did nothing despite racing after her-that would be highly out of character for them and inconsistent for the show

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FirestormFate1919

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Defenders.

In unarmed combat this definitely comes down to Mace vs Cage, none of the others really matter since they can't contend at all stat-wise. I'm inclined to give that edge to Luke, I think his abilities are much more established than Mace's, as impressive as going against Robbie is.

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The_Justiciar

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#36  Edited By The_Justiciar

@arcus1 said:

Bobbi also lost her fight with Ward and Kara. Kara's established, sure, but I'd be inclined to put Bakuto or Murakami above her.

And what, we're gonna ignore the fact that she had to fight Ward too? Ward's accolades and feats easily make up for any semblance of Kara being worse than the Hand leaders, and then some. Bobbi did hers after hours of psychological and physical torture. Matt was in good shape.

If you want to scale Matt to others' feats, let's talk about how an injured, exhausted Bobbi is pretty much a match for someone who has taken out 6 spec ops soldiers easily, stood his ground against a supersoldier, and stomped Tripp (who himself can fodderize HYDRA agents).

Vin Tak's not an elite Asgardian warrior with thousands of years of experience (that's who I was comparing Elektra to). And if you really wanna go with that logic, then CW Ra's beats any of the agents, but iirc you would argue otherwise

Sif was taking frost giants easily. It is common consensus on the Vine that even fodder Asgardian type soldiers and their counterparts like Dark Elves/Frost Giants would give Cap a solid run for his money, if not beat him. What makes Elektra better than Vin-Tak, who can match Lady Sif (who fodderizes enemies that most would say gives Cap a hard time)?

Do you have a clip of the scene or anything? Because I remember watching it a while back, thinking I was gonna get a great feat for Bobbi, and being disappointed because Mack and Hunter clearly went in to join her. Seems highly unlikely that they would've just stood around watching her take on 12 guys solo. Them not fighting when Bobbi was finishing just means Bobbi took care of the last agent there was. I'm gonna need some strong evidence to believe Mack and Hunter did nothing despite racing after her-that would be highly out of character for them and inconsistent for the show

Mack was carrying a tablet and was basically mission support.

Hunter went in after Bobbi, yes. Bobbi by that point had already engaged. Let's say for the sake of argument she only took out 5-6 out of 12 agents. That would be consistent with her taking on Scarlotti's mercs. That is equivalent to Matt's best fodder feats against the Hand...at-least, the ones which don't rely on somehow scaling Elektra's sword feat in darkness to Matt's h2h prowess.

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The_Justiciar

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@angeljax: Vine-Force Matt is quickly becoming a new thing, he is almost on par with CW Arrow now. God Skill-Tier MCU Daredevil solos.

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BladeOfFury

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@the_magister:

To be fair, Vin Tak wrecked Bobbi. She was able to last a little, which is impressive, but she was only prolonging the inevitable.

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AngelJax

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@the_magister: On par? He's transcended him at this point. The new TOAA

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The_Justiciar

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@bladeoffury: She definitely did do very well. She got out of his hold a couple times in their second encounter, and kicked him hard enough to send him flying in their first encounter.

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The_Justiciar

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@_kingoflatveria: I should never have asked Saberscar to make that gif...what have I brought upon this world?

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@the_magister said:

@_kingoflatveria: I should never have asked Saberscar to make that gif...what have I brought upon this world?

Average Viners have multiversal durrabillity and stats comparable to MCU Cap who can benchpress one centillion tonnes and DCEU Doomsday's durrabillity granting us the ability to no sell & adapt 2 5k megaton nukes. We are safe from the Vine force skill that is Matt Murdock

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BladeOfFury

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@bladeoffury: She definitely did do very well. She got out of his hold a couple times in their second encounter, and kicked him hard enough to send him flying in their first encounter.

I guess.

But what makes Vin Tak more impressive than Elektra? Sif had him outclassed in terms of physicals, he only won due to his weapon and skill. Elektra has Sif outclassed in skill as far as I'm concerned. Matt lasted way longer against Elektra than Bobbi did against Vin Tak.

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DSTREET45

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#45  Edited By DSTREET45

@arcus1:

Here's the clip:

Loading Video...
@angeljax said:

Watch the scene again, Mack's giving a speech about how they need to be as fast and covert as possible and Bobbi just interrupts him and gets the job done because she knows she can. Even when we cut back we see Bobbi taking out one last agent and Mack and Hunter are just standing there watching.

You mean this part?

That was before Mack's speech.

I don't see why it's far-fetched to assume that Hunter and Mack went in to help. Standing around and waiting during a fight is out of character for the both of them especially Hunter in regards to a fight involving Bobbi.

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Penguinofsteel

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Defenders.

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Greysentinel365

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Agents win. Hell Mace might solo.

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Aka_aka_aka_ak

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Defenders, comfortably.

What the crap are these answers? Jessica is stronger than Mace; she matches him. Matt and Danny are more skilled than May and Bobbi, but for argument''s sake let's say they match each other. But Ward doesn't stand a f*cking chance against Luke.

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No one here can put Luke down. Defenders should take it

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@arcus1 said:

Bobbi also lost her fight with Ward and Kara. Kara's established, sure, but I'd be inclined to put Bakuto or Murakami above her.

And what, we're gonna ignore the fact that she had to fight Ward too? Ward's accolades and feats easily make up for any semblance of Kara being worse than the Hand leaders, and then some. Bobbi did hers after hours of psychological and physical torture. Matt was in good shape.

If you want to scale Matt to others' feats, let's talk about how an injured, exhausted Bobbi is pretty much a match for someone who has taken out 6 spec ops soldiers easily, stood his ground against a supersoldier, and stomped Tripp (who himself can fodderize HYDRA agents).

Never said I was ignoring her. The point was that, while Ward's better than Bakuto or Murakami, Kara's worse (this might have battle potential)

Yeah, Bobbi was in worse shape. Bobbi also clearly lost, while Matt was doing just fine or even had an upper hand.

Vin Tak's not an elite Asgardian warrior with thousands of years of experience (that's who I was comparing Elektra to). And if you really wanna go with that logic, then CW Ra's beats any of the agents, but iirc you would argue otherwise

Sif was taking frost giants easily. It is common consensus on the Vine that even fodder Asgardian type soldiers and their counterparts like Dark Elves/Frost Giants would give Cap a solid run for his money, if not beat him. What makes Elektra better than Vin-Tak, who can match Lady Sif (who fodderizes enemies that most would say gives Cap a hard time)?

Elektra's not as strong, but skill-wise she's significantly better. Plus, Vin-Tak was on the losing end of his fight with Sif, he only won because he surprised her with his weapon's memory-erasing capabilities

Plus, Matt did much better in his first encounter with Elektra than Bobbi did in her first encounter with Vin Tak

Do you have a clip of the scene or anything? Because I remember watching it a while back, thinking I was gonna get a great feat for Bobbi, and being disappointed because Mack and Hunter clearly went in to join her. Seems highly unlikely that they would've just stood around watching her take on 12 guys solo. Them not fighting when Bobbi was finishing just means Bobbi took care of the last agent there was. I'm gonna need some strong evidence to believe Mack and Hunter did nothing despite racing after her-that would be highly out of character for them and inconsistent for the show

Mack was carrying a tablet and was basically mission support.

Hunter went in after Bobbi, yes. Bobbi by that point had already engaged. Let's say for the sake of argument she only took out 5-6 out of 12 agents. That would be consistent with her taking on Scarlotti's mercs. That is equivalent to Matt's best fodder feats against the Hand...at-least, the ones which don't rely on somehow scaling Elektra's sword feat in darkness to Matt's h2h prowess.

Carrying a tablet doesn't mean he couldn't put it down and help fight a large group of Hydra agents

Hunter was seconds behind Bobbi, what reason is there to assume she took out half the guys in that time?

She took on Scarlotti's mercs with Hunter (a fight that took longer than 5ish seconds)

Elektra took out 10 ninjas, despite being completely surrounded, without getting tagged once, and apparently without moving from her initial location. When she fought Matt, Matt was fast enough to regularly evade her and to tag her repeatedly, something 10 ninjas attacking her from all sides couldn't do. I'm not seeing the "sword to h2h" problem. It's not like I'm scaling Matt off a fight with Elektra where Elektra was unarmed.

For additional difference, the starting situation between Elektra's feat and Bobbi's is very different. Bobbi had the element of surprise against the Hydra agents, who were all spread out in the room. Elektra, however, started off surrounded, being attacked simultaneously from all sides.