MCU Daredevil vs Agent Grant Ward

Still backing Matt.

Ward kills Matt.

May's better at technique, doesn't mean she's better at fighting

Put May and Ward in a cage match or an empty room somewhere, does May take a solid majority over Ward? Because I have a hard time seeing her take anything more than maybe a slim majority based on all indications we've been given of their relative standing

Matt's not quite as physical as Ward, but conversely, the advantages May has over Ward in h2h (speed and technique) don't apply to the same degree against Matt.

And even if we ignore the simple logic that a young man in peak condition would have a physical advantage over a middle aged woman in peak condition (Charlie Cox isn't quite as tall as Brett Dalton, but they weigh the same, from what I could find), I think there's still a solid argument to be made for Matt having a physical edge over May-in large part from his physical superiority to Danny

Don't tell me you're one of the people who doesn't acknowledge Matt's improvement over the course of S2...

We've got direct statements from Charlie Cox himself saying Matt got "better, faster, stronger" over S2, we've got improved showings, we even have him outmaneuvering Frank far more efficiently at the end of S2 (sure, Frank wasn't in ideal condition, but Matt also wasn't even trying to fight him. We've got showings in Defenders that are clearly above what Matt was capable of in S1 and the early part of S2. What more does it take?

Eh he could if he felt the need, based on how he was manhandling Danny at points and grappling/slamming Elektra (even in their first fight, he slammed her down on a table-sure it's not much but still something)

@arcus1: Defenders feats aren’t consistent and I won’t take them seriously until we see where Daredevil is at in his own season 3

He gave the omnipotent CW Green Arrow a run for his money and provided him an undeniable bullet timing feat. He solos the entire MCU TV department at once, minus Felicity Smoak her hacking skills are just 2 good and valuable in Close Combat

Yes and no tbh, he slammed Elektra using skill and transfer of momentum. Ward brute-forced May with strength. I can find the respective gifs of them slamming their opponents, and they're wildly different.

@the_magister: never said they were exactly the same, obviously Matt’s not gonna be able to flat out overpower Elektra, just pointing out that Matt’s been known to grapple too

@allstarsuperman:

Aren’t consistent with what? We know Matt improved over S2, who says he couldn’t have just improved more than we realized? Disregarding occasional outliers is one thing, but just ignoring a whole series?

@arcus1: Defenders showings aren’t even consistent with themselves. Based on Daredevil 2 and Iron Fist, Danny is the clear superior, but in Defenders Danny is treated like a bitch for Matt to look good. Then there is the obvious problems with all the elektra fights. Sometimes she’s a team buster who one shots Matt, other times Matt alone can fight her. It’s stupid, and it as well thought out as Arrow Season 4. I’m sorry but I refuse to take it seriously, until the sequel series can show that it’s inline with how the characters will be portrayed from here on.

In my opinion Daredevil.

But not by a huge majority (basing this off of only the first or second season of daredevil, but I've seen most of agents of shield). Ward is probably stronger honestly, and he can be very brutal. If Daredevil didn't have his crazy senses (but normal vision) and his suit, I would totally choose Ward. If daredevil didn't have his suit it might be about even.

@allstarsuperman:

Matt vs Danny is easily explained by Matt simply having improved more than we realized by the end of S2. We know he was capable of stomping Nobu when properly focused (like he did when rescuing Stick), and in Defenders he fights at that level throughout the series

As for Matt vs Elektra, when Matt fought her, he relied on avoiding her hits. In their first fight, she put him down with a solid kick. After killing Stick, she put him down with a kick again, this ko’ing him. Makes sense that she’d be more successful because Matt wasn’t in anything close to his right mind and didn’t even try to defend himself, leaving himself wide open for a perfect shot

It seems that Matt vs Elektra is the only potential inconsistency that can’t be explained by the writers expressed intention to have Matt on another level by the end of S2

@arcus1: I was going to reply but you beat me to the punch. :)

@dstreet45: feel free to add anything anyway

I feel like Ward would lose every time. Ward does not have the hand to hand feats, or the physicals feats, that Matt does. A lot of his showings are based off of scaling. For example, one might say that since he almost beat May he is about equal to her. Thereby applying all of May's skills and feats to Ward. But really, he relied a lot on strength and physicals to gain an advantage over her. This is the same thing when he fought Bobbi too. He was throwing her through walls and trying to outmuscle her, while she showed more skill. Ward's fights with May and Bobbi should not mean he is as skilled or fast or those two. In short, I really don't think Ward has the same level of martial arts skill as Matt, who is essentially a specialist in martial arts and beat the Iron Fist.

In fact the only advantage over Matt I'd give Ward is pain tolerance or durability. Ward has great strength feats, sending people through the air with strikes and putting people through walls, but Matt has feats to match every single one of Ward's. He has sent people flying with strikes, thrown people through the air with one arm, kicked someone so hard that their head cracked a windshield when they hit it, and knee'd Bakuto through cinder blocks. And when it comes to speed, Ward simply cannot compare with this:

Ward best bet is using his strength to try to overpower Matt like Frank, but I see him getting overwhelmed with Matt's speed and agility, and eventually going down. But I'd love to hear arguments from those supporting Ward, if anyone is.

@the_magister: I said they can't compare to top tier martial artists, and I stand by that. When May can keep up with YoYo in combat, or even react to her speed, we'll talk. Oliver/Matt take out groups of 12+ easily and consistently. May doesn't, she gets tagged constantly, and is nowhere near Oliver lmao.

You covered pretty much everything I was going to say. The only thing I was going to put was the "Who is the Weakest Defender" video where Kristen Ritter said that Matt was the most skilled Defender. I wasn't sure if people would take it seriously but I think that it further supports that Matt was intended to be at that level. It also helps that the showrunners for Defenders were the showrunners for Daredevil Season 2 so they'd have more of an idea of how good of a fighter Matt should be at that point.

@allstarsuperman: Matt destroyed Frank in every single fight they had lmfao... Frank had to get a gun to beat him...

Ward would beat Frank, and Matt would beat Ward.

@dstreet45: in conjunction with what we saw in the show, that statement definitely does seem consistent. I think Danny’s maybe got better pure technique, but in application Matt’s better. And pointing out that it’s the same creative team is good @komboing: he kinda didn’t though...Matt was consistently the faster fighter against Frank’s tankishness, but saying Matt destroyed Frank in every fight is incorrect and easily proven false

@arcus1: I'm not convinced that Danny is really more skilled than Matt, it's close. He's just so inexperienced and hotheaded that there was no doubt he was going to lose that fight. He probably is slightly more skilled, but Matt is just more durable, has way more experience, and has super senses.

Also, Matt was wayyy better than Frank, Frank was getting demolished that first fight till he took out a gun. Granted, he does have INSANE durability.

@komboing:

And in the first part of that fight Frank actually put Matt down long enough to leave. Sure, it was by virtue of his sheer strength and durability, but that counts

I don't want to say Matt stomps but honestly I think he has almost every advantage. Matt is faster and more skilled. Durability seems a toss up from what I've seen. I used to give Ward the strength advantage but honestly I haven't seen anything from Ward that is better than this.

Matt sent Nobu an incredible distance and Nobu rotated several times incredibly quickly.

@arcus1: It definitely still counts, I was just saying that Matt is unquestionably the better fighter by a decent margin. Some people on here actually think Frank is more skilled than Matt or Danny, and that is ridiculous... then again, there are also people who think May would beat Matt or Danny, so I guess that's in the same ballpark...

This is wrong. The first fight, Frank hit Matt once and it put Matt on the ground in pain for 6 seconds. If Frank wanted to he could have killed him right there. Not to mention the fact that Frank was holding back and did not want to fight, and Matt is in a suit of armor.

Fight number 2, Frank won again, despite being shot in the middle of the fight, and he won without a gun. In fact, Frank actually took Daredevil's baton from him and beat him with it...

So I am severely confused how you can say Matt destroyed him when he decisively lost each time. These two fights ended either with Matt having a bullet in his helmet and being left in a coma on a rooftop, or Matt being slammed through a roof and ending up tied up by Frank.

If you wanna count that encounter near the end of the series after Frank had been tortured multiple times and was fighting stupidly instead of tactically, go ahead, but to say he got destroyed at any point is just wrong.

@jayc1324: Frank relied on gear to beat Matt, if he didn't have a gun in the first fight, he would have lost. He would NEVER beat Matt in an unarmed fair fight. That isn't even debatable... in the first fight, Matt outhit him about 15-5... and in the second fight, gunshots were going off everywhere.

Obviously Frank>Matt with gear. But in H2H, Matt destroys him.

Edit: In the second fight, Matt was literally still suffering from a gunshot would to the head, and was still keeping Frank on defense for the majority of the fight.

@jayc1324: Imo, Matt would win but in an extremely tough fight. While Matt is more skilled, I might actually argue that Ward is a bit more efficient with how he fights. His method of combat is basically Punisher's, but 5x as smooth and 10x as quick.

But what about when Frank put him on the ground for 6 seconds and then walked away? He could have beat him there if he kept attacking, and that was done without a gun. It doesn't matter that Matt lands more hits because Frank tanks them. Matt doesn't tank Frank's hits though. I agree that Matt is a lot better in hand to hand but Frank definitely can hold his own and did have a chance to actually beat him in the first fight.

And in the second fight Frank got shot in the arm, they were both at a disadvantage. And Matt is the one who got put through a rooftop, not Frank. Frank held his own despite being shot, that is impressive.

@jayc1324: Not saying Frank can't hold his own. But Matt is more skilled, and that isn't debatable. Frank is just... really... really strong/durable.

If you are referring to May getting tagged in last night's episode, those were combat androids that were skilled on top of that. She also still has a significant leg injury.

Oliver's been downed by a single merc in season 6...no added context, no injury, nothing. Just wrecked and pinned for a solid minute. "Low showing" or not, the writers and choreographers made a deliberate choice to put that in there. Closest thing that's happened in AoS is Ward getting blindsided by a soldier in South Ossetia, but that was in quick succession after fighting 5 other soldiers and having to keep an eye on Fitz the whole time.

And are you seriously implying that Oliver can react to Flash? I don't know anyone who takes that fight seriously except for you and Nick.

@the_magister: I didn't mention Friday's episode, that's not a bad feat for her, Ik they were robots, and she has an injured leg. But I will point out, Oliver beat Slade in episode 23 with a broken leg.

Yes I am suggesting he can react to the Flash, because he did, and he also reacted to Eobard. I doubt he can react to current Flash.

I've never said May isn't skilled, what I have said is that she simply isn't portrayed to be on the same god tier level that someone like Oliver is, or even someone like Matt or Danny.

May is slightly above Ward, I've always seen it that way.

Ward is above Danny due to better application of strength, superior endurance, and comparable (if not slightly better) skill.

Matt is equal to May with Defenders feats, although their feats are so different that it is difficult to compare like that.

Widow and Hawkeye are better than Daisy on-paper, but she outclasses them in showings.

And nobody mentioned above can replicate what Bobbi has done imo, so she is the best unenhanced fighter in the MCU.

Bobbi > May = Matt > Ward = Daisy > Danny > Widow > Hawkeye

@greysentinel365

So you're finally convinced that Matt is at least equal to May?

We're making progress here

Yes and I don't agree with you that May would lose to Ward unarmed. She beats him 6/10 times.

I even say in my Ward vs Ollie CaV that Ward has consistently excellent showings against May, I never call them victories or triumphs.

Matt has slight edge in some areas and pretty significant edge in other. He takes it.

@the_magister: One step at a time

As for this fight, I think Matt would take it by a hair's breadth. 5.5 or 6 out of 10.

Lol, people still take Flash feats for Oliver seriously.

Matt, but barely.

Ward

Ward. Hell of a fight.

Matt.

Matt.

Let's just admire for a sec, at the durability of a guy who has no physical super-powers, that tanked two hits from a super-human Black Sky Elektra.

Crazy. And he didn't even fight Elektra in his armor. This woman endured getting slapped by a car tossed by Jessica Jones. Matt was giving her issues.

The SHIELD Agents that Ward took out, are nowhere near as skilled as the Hand, I don't care how elite they are. These are immortal ninjas that have lived for thousands of years. They're not getting out-skilled by SHIELD Agents.

Matt has super-human senses, balance, and reflexes, borderline supernatural pain tolerance, incredible agility.

You could subsitute Bakuto or Murakami with Ward and Matt could still fight both. Matt would wipe the floor with him solo.

YOU DARE!!!

@WhataRecch: I think Matt has what it takes to beat Ward, but I'm not sure I agree with some of your reasoning.

Ward has great durability too, able to take hits from Centipede Soldiers.

"Immortal ninjas that have lived for thousands of years" sounds nice, but there is zero proof that all Hand ninjas are that old/that skilled. The Level 5 SHIELD agents are impressive, we've seen over the seasons what SHIELD agents are capable of. Ward got out of being swarmed by a squad of them in very close quarters.

Matt takes this in a slobberknocker of a fight, in my opinion. 5.5 or 6 times out of 10.

If Matt goes back to his usual feats in Season 3, e.g. fighting street-level crime and having a rough go of it, I might be forced to call the Defenders feats outliers and give this fight to Ward solidly again. But assuming that doesn't happen, @arcus1 will have nothing to complain about.

CW Arrow is a god.

Eh I wouldn't go that far. Matt wasn't making any notable headway on the Murakami and Bakuto fight and was merely buying time. Ward alone gives Matt an admirable fight and I think the fight ends if Murakami was paired with Ward.