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#51 Posted by Tambanokano (11 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

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#52 Posted by ITheManWithoutFearI (6533 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

I think Batman can beat either just by being a skilled tank, and his gadgets only make it that much more or a certainty. Black Widow would lose in a long fight to Matt, but she would be beaten relatively quickly by Oliver. I think team 1 would win, since I doubt Batman would take out anyone before Black Widow is taken down.

I agree.

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#53 Posted by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. Both Matt and Oliver could take on either Batman and Widow.

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#54 Posted by CramAndman (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45:

@jayc1324 said:

I think Batman can beat either just by being a skilled tank, and his gadgets only make it that much more or a certainty. Black Widow would lose in a long fight to Matt, but she would be beaten relatively quickly by Oliver. I think team 1 would win, since I doubt Batman would take out anyone before Black Widow is taken down.

I agree.

I disagree about a few things. I think everyone's overlooking Widow. She's armed with guns and stingers. While Daredevil has dodged bullets shot by cops, Widow is a superior marksmen and so she has a good chance of hitting Matt and only the black portions of his suit are bulletproof. There's also the matter of her stingers and stun batons. There's a very good chance that in a close-up H2H or melee fight that she will sting him either with her wrist gauntlets, shock batons or stinger disks/projectile and if they can slow down T'challa it could incapacitate Matt, at least long enough for her to shoot him. His armor gives him an advantage against her best punches and kicks but her gear should allow her to win.

I don't see Batman beating Oliver in this matchup. They're on a roof so he can't use his grapnel gun/stealth skills and hasn't shown any bullet/arrow dodging skills/reflexes. Batman would win H2H against Oliver because of his strength advantage, but Ollie has a range advantage with his arrows and they will penetrate his suit and weaken him enough to be taken down.

Then it's a matter of Widow vs Oliver. Again, if it goes CQC, I think Widow's stingers will win her the day and at range she can hold her own against him, especially if he's injured in the fight against Batman. She's also proven to be fast/evasive enough to dodge hawkeeye's arrows and resourceful enough to outmaneuver him. I think she can take him due to her gear advantage, whereas she would lose in straight H2H.

If you switch the Match-ups, Batman will overpower DD, but take some bad hits along the way and Widow again can take Ollie down with gear or at least survive long enough for Batman to help double team him.

Bear in mind, if you gave Ollie all of his gear and trick arrows, he would be able to take either one at range.

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#55 Edited by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio
@cramandman said:

@dstreet45:

I disagree about a few things. I think everyone's overlooking Widow. She's armed with guns and stingers. While Daredevil has dodged bullets shot by cops, Widow is a superior marksmen and so she has a good chance of hitting Matt and only the black portions of his suit are bulletproof.

With no distance specified, gap between them shifts to 10 feet as per Battle Forum Rules so I doubt she'll be able to draw and get a shot off before either close the distance. Even if we ignore that, the roof isn't even that big and Oliver is faster on the draw so they could still close the distance. And I already mentioned why I don't think her widow bites gives her the advantage a few days ago.

And even though she's more accurate than the cops, I don't see her being able to pick up the slack of 4 decently accurate cops (cleared a room full of guards before Daredevil beat them). That's not even taking into account that Matt already fought through a bullet wound (his suit probably helped) and didn't even slow down after getting shot. Oliver's suit is also Kevlar and was shown to be bulletproof a few times.

There's also the matter of her stingers and stun batons.

The latter of which isn't even standard gear seeing as she only used it once in 5 movies.

There's a very good chance that in a close-up H2H or melee fight that she will sting him either with her wrist gauntlets,

I doubt it to be honest. By feats Oliver is above her in H2H, same with Matt even before Defenders came out. They both hit harder and have shown faster CQC speed than she has. For example, Matt taken 5 Hand ninjas in 9 seconds (one is skilled enough to fodderize 2 cops in seconds in H2H) and S4 Oliver defeated 6-8 mercenaries in 7 seconds.

shock batons or stinger disks/projectile

Which either could dodge. Both are casual arrow timers/potential bullet dodgers. Hell Matt had sensed electricity several times before so he'll know when she'll use it.

and if they can slow down T'challa it could incapacitate Matt, at least long enough for her to shoot him.

Assuming she hits him. Even then she never double tapped in character so I don't see her doing it here especially when the win conditions is incap and KO. She'll likely focus on Oliver after Matt get hits leaving to Matt get up to fight again.

His armor gives him an advantage against her best punches and kicks but her gear should allow her to win.

Again assuming she tags him.

I don't see Batman beating Oliver in this matchup. They're on a roof so he can't use his grapnel gun/stealth skills and hasn't shown any bullet/arrow dodging skills/reflexes. Batman would win H2H against Oliver because of his strength advantage, but Ollie has a range advantage with his arrows and they will penetrate his suit and weaken him enough to be taken down.

The strength advantage isn't even that much. In season 5 Oliver was repeatedly shown to be capable of ragdolling people just like Batman. In Season 1 he tried to hit with his bow in CQC Merlyn but missed and accidentally decapitated a stone statue instead. Oliver had also been shown to take really hard hits like when he fought TK amped Darkh on the train and he threw Oliver hard enough to bend one of the metal poles. He can handle Batman.

Then it's a matter of Widow vs Oliver. Again, if it goes CQC, I think Widow's stingers will win her the day

Again assuming that she hits him. Even then Season 2 Flashback Oliver withstood electric torture before and stayed conscious until Slade upped the current to just below the amount to cause cardiac arrest. Widow bites aren't going to down him.

If you switch the Match-ups, Batman will overpower DD, but take some bad hits along the way

Batman isn't overpowering Matt either. In S1 Matt took a chi strike from Madame Gao and walked it off a few seconds later despite still having injuries from his fight with Nobu. S2 Nobu had similar striking power to Batman and Matt was still able to take him. In The Defenders Matt took several hits from Elektra and was still fine. In addition to his durability, Matt hits hard enough to ragdoll people on occasion, broke a 2x4 with his arms, and kicked Bakuto hard enough that he shatter several concrete block on impact. Matt can take Batman as well.

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#56 Posted by Mutant1230 (3212 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

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#57 Posted by CramAndman (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Your analysis is a bit off. The fact that they're starting at 10 feet now takes away Ollie's range advantage against Batman and Widow. Batman is much stronger than Ollie, both in terms of punching/kicking power and lifting strength. While Ollie's faster, Batman is still fast enough to block four attackers at the same time. Ollie is very durable but Batman's armor is far better than his and without the range to utilize his arrow advantage, Batman will break an arm, wear him down and eventually take him out.

Widow is fully capable of landing her stingers on Ollie in CQC. She's landed them on everyone she's tried them on, including two supersoldiers, BPanther and Bucky, Chitauri, Ultrons, Fodder, and Antman. Some of whom can dodge/catch arrows. He doesn't even know it's coming and she has enough variety in her stingers that they're pretty much guaranteed to land at some point in their fight. Also, her stingers probably will KO him, since there's a difference between being tortured with a sustained current and her much more powerful stingers, which are capable of KOing aliens, ultrons, and humans. They can totally incapacitate a mech arm and even slow down a supersolider in a vibranium suit, which is absorbing the current. EVen if it doesn't KO Oliver, it will slow him down long enough for her to put a bullet in his head. She definitely wins this under these conditions.

MAtt was one-kick KO'ed by Elektra, Batman kicks just as hard. He has the suit to help him take some punishment, but he will simply be overpowered by Batman, who again is fast enough to respond to his punches and kicks. Matt was also beaten by Nobu whose kicks sent him flying with the suit. Matt has inconsistent showings against superpowered people and it's pretty obvious that Elektra was holding back against him because she loves him. She'd have killed him if she went all out. Remember she one-kick KO'ed Jessica and Luke as well, though he was also weakened by the incense.

Matt will also lose to Widow for all the reasons I've mentioned against Oliver. She's fast enough to land her stingers at close, medium and far range. If she can land on Tchalla she can land on Matt.

Something else to consider, Widow just has to grapple with Matt or Oliver to use her stingers, meaning all she has to do is get them in a clinch and it's over. She's perfectly capable, skilled and fast enough to do that!

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#58 Posted by LORDSHEPHERD123 (350 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

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#59 Posted by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Your analysis is a bit off. The fact that they're starting at 10 feet now takes away Ollie's range advantage against Batman and Widow. Batman is much stronger than Ollie, both in terms of punching/kicking power and lifting strength.

No he isn't. Batman's strength advantage isn't too high for Oliver to handle.

While Ollie's faster, Batman is still fast enough to block four attackers at the same time. Ollie is very durable but Batman's armor is far better than his and without the range to utilize his arrow advantage, Batman will break an arm, wear him down and eventually take him out.

Based on what? for all of you claims of Batman being much stronger you haven't shown any examples of his strength. Oliver had also taken hits from metahumans several times throughout the course of the series and still kept fighting (Soloman Grundy, Derek Sampson, Damian Darhk, etc.). Batman's strength isn't anything Oliver can't handle.

Widow is fully capable of landing her stingers on Ollie in CQC. She's landed them on everyone she's tried them on, including two supersoldiers, BPanther and Bucky, Chitauri, Ultrons, Fodder, and Antman. Some of whom can dodge/catch arrows.

Why would getting hits on Chituari, Ultron bots and fodder matter when Oliver and Matt are superior to all of them in CQC speed/skill? And Antman isn't doesn't have Oliver's CQC speed nor skill so he's out as well. Bucky looking through the scope of his rifle and Panther wasn't expecting to get hit the first time and repeated tried to run straight at her without even trying to dodge so he could get to Bucky.

He doesn't even know it's coming and she has enough variety in her stingers that they're pretty much guaranteed to land at some point in their fight.

It's not a guarantee seeing that Oliver is faster than in combat via feats. You still haven't shown how Widow is fast enough to keep up with either of them. This is a guy who has enough situational awareness to dodge arrows with his back turned, she's not getting the drop on him.

Also, her stingers probably will KO him, since there's a difference between being tortured with a sustained current and her much more powerful stingers, which are capable of KOing aliens, ultrons, and humans.

The ones that took down Ultron bots aren't standard gear and her regular Widow bites only worked on fodder. Ant-Man was still conscious after getting hit and he was KO'd after being tazed in his solo. Widow was barely down after shocking herself with one. And if Widow bites are much more powerful than Oliver's torture, everyone she shocked, even herself would've been killed. The amount of current needed to KO Oliver was just under the amount needed to stop someone's heart.

In comparison, Mercenary #27 here still needed to be KO'd by Widow herself via bodyslam despite being hit by a Widow Bite:

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So excuse me if I don't believe that it's much more powerful than a potentially lethal torture device.

They can totally incapacitate a mech arm and even slow down a supersolider in a vibranium suit, which is absorbing the current.

Vibranium hasn't been shown to be a great insulator yet and again if that was the case Widow Bite's would be deadly.

EVen if it doesn't KO Oliver, it will slow him down long enough for her to put a bullet in his head. She definitely wins this under these conditions.

Again that's not what she does in character.

MAtt was one-kick KO'ed by Elektra, Batman kicks just as hard.

When has Batman kick hard enough to send someone flying 20 feet despite him crashing through glass first? When has he hit hard enough to hurt someone as durable as Luke Cage? Matt was only KO'd once and even then it's possible that the incense could've had some effect seeing that literally every other time he took her hits he was fine.

He has the suit to help him take some punishment, but he will simply be overpowered by Batman, who again is fast enough to respond to his punches and kicks.

Batman is fast enough to keep up with Matt but Matt is still faster than him and has enough striking power to ragdoll people and break concrete blocks. He's not being overpowered.

Matt was also beaten by Nobu whose kicks sent him flying with the suit.

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Matt has inconsistent showings against superpowered people

The only thing that's inconsistent is Nobu being able to fight Matt and Elektra at once. Matt alone was enough to beat him in episode 12 and Matt (who took a bullet to the shoulder earlier) had the clear upper hand against Nobu before Eletkra stepped in. After Elektra dies Matt proceeds to beat Nobu again.

Against Madame Gao, an already injured Matt takes a chi strike and is only down for a few seconds before getting up to see that she left. He still fine enough to escape and causally stomp Brett like it didn't happen.

and it's pretty obvious that Elektra was holding back against him because she loves him. She'd have killed him if she went all out. Remember she one-kick KO'ed Jessica and Luke as well, though he was also weakened by the incense.

Again she only KO'd them once. And Elektra had no reason to hold back in their first fight seeing that she didn't even recognize him until he said her name. And he never said that she was holding back in the sense that she was pulling her punches just that she had the chance to kill him (i.e when he's on the floor and she hesitated to stab him after he said her name, when she KO'd him after killing Stick, etc.).

Even if she was holding back it doesn't take away the fact that he took superhuman hits like this

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and was still able to get up and fight.

Matt will also lose to Widow for all the reasons I've mentioned against Oliver. She's fast enough to land her stingers at close, medium and far range. If she can land on Tchalla she can land on Matt.

T'Challa wasn't expecting her to shoot him and every other time he got hit was due to him literally running straight at it just to get to Bucky.

Something else to consider, Widow just has to grapple with Matt or Oliver to use her stingers, meaning all she has to do is get them in a clinch and it's over. She's perfectly capable, skilled and fast enough to do that!

You still haven't proven how Widow is fast enough in CQC to get that chance. She's mostly fought fodder and the only established character she fought upfront was who is Hawkeye who's 1-1-and 1 against her. And she never used it on him. I'd place more stock in them KO'ing her first seeing as they have better fodder busting feats, better speed feats, better strength/striking power feats, more wins against established characters (some of which are better than Hawkeye) etc.

You keep claiming that Batman is strong enough to overpower them and Widow is fast enough to keep up with either of them without backing up either.

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#60 Posted by ANTHP2000 (10284 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

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#61 Posted by lubub55 (9151 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver could actually solo.

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#62 Posted by CramAndman (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: C'mon, man. Now you're being disingenuous, you know Batman's striking/strength feats. He kicked superman 15-20 feet into the air, even more impressively than Elektra kicking Matt/Jessica. Punched a guy's head through the floor. Counter-punched a guy flying at him due to his grapnel pull and provided a counter-force that sent him flying across the room. Kicked another guy and sent him spinning through the air several feet and hard enough to knock another opponent off his feet. Picked a guy up and slammed him through a wall. Smashed through a couple of walls in the movie, with and without mech suit. Tore a sink not only off the wall, but off it's base. With his grapnel, he was able to swing Superman through the air 360 degrees, through concrete pillars. With his grapnel, he was able to lift a heavy cargo box and fling it into the air hard enough to kill/KO an opponent. Also, Batman maneuvering in his mech suit which weighs at least 80-100 pounds is it's own workout. As for Oliver, he has a great deal of trouble dealing with anyone significantly stronger, even if they aren't as skilled as Batman. All of your examples are examples of metahumans Ollie couldn't and didn't KO H2H. He needed either advanced gear, a cure/special sedatives or explosives to hang with them. None of which he'll have in this fight. The same goes for this match-up and Batman is more skilled and faster than anyone on your list. It'll be a good fight but he's going down.

As for Matt's durability, he was one kick KO'ed with a shot by Elektra that was less impressive than the one he gets up and fights after in your clip. Honestly, Defenders is a mess when it comes to everyone's strength, speed, and durability. Remember, MAtt has been KOed before by Punisher with Matt's billy club. He's too inconsistent to hold in high regard. In any case, we agree that Widow will lose in pure H2H against Oliver or DD. But this isn't pure H2H, she has enough gear with her pistols and stingers to take down either one, especially since they don't even know her stingers are coming and has multiple ways to deploy them. Even if they can't KO them, it gives her plenty of time to draw her pistol and put them down. She has plenty of feats of shooting people, monsters and even Bucky, so I don't see why it's controversial. AS for them being too fast for her to land a stinger of any sort on them, they've been clipped and grabbed by people much slower and less skilled than Widow. If you're being at all realistic, she'll get them if she tries and then she'll put their lights out.

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#63 Posted by joshua755 (1579 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#64 Posted by ganon15 (5374 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 because of Black Sky/Elektra

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#65 Posted by lubub55 (9151 posts) - - Show Bio

@ganon15 said:

Team 2 because of Black Sky/Elektra

Wrong thread, I think.

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#66 Posted by ganon15 (5374 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:
@ganon15 said:

Team 2 because of Black Sky/Elektra

Wrong thread, I think.

Oh sh.. I thought Black Widow was Black Sky. Yeah team 1 has this

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#67 Posted by RBT (16568 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 rather easily.

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#68 Edited by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

@cramandman said:

@dstreet45: C'mon, man. Now you're being disingenuous, you know Batman's striking/strength feats. He kicked superman 15-20 feet into the air, even more impressively than Elektra kicking Matt/Jessica.

Tore a sink not only off the wall, but off it's base. With his grapnel, he was able to swing Superman through the air 360 degrees, through concrete pillars.

And that's the problem, you're using Batman's armored feats and assuming that's where he's at strength-wise. Batman never came close to replicating any of those strength feats outside of the suit. Not in the warehouse fight, not in his training montage, not in Suicide Squad, and not even in his tie-in comics.

Punched a guy's head through the floor.

No he didn't you clearly see the dude's head after the fact.

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If his head was punched through the floor then it'd still be in the hypothetical hole in the floor. At best Batman hit him hard enough that his head cracked the wooden floor board.

Matt recently kicked Bakuto hard enough to break several concrete blocks.

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Counter-punched a guy flying at him due to his grapnel pull and provided a counter-force that sent him flying across the room.

That's his best feat and that's not something above Elektra, Madame Gao or some of the metahumans Oliver fought. Madame Gao alone could push a dumpster, a stack of cement blocks and a car with her powers but Matt was still fine after getting hit by her. Elektra punched him hard enough to send him flying 15+ feet despite the fact he had to go through a glass pane first (that alone should've slowed down his momentum) and Matt got up almost immediately.

Kicked another guy and sent him spinning through the air several feet and hard enough to knock another opponent off his feet.

And Matt kicked someone hard enough to send him flying several feet back and hard enough to crack a windshield when he landed.

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Picked a guy up and slammed him through a wall.

You mean this?

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The wall was plaster. Hand ninjas were able to punch through that and pull Elektra through in the Season 2 finale.

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Smashed through a couple of walls in the movie, with and without mech suit.

Again Hand ninjas were capable of punching/smashing through walls as well.

With his grapnel, he was able to lift a heavy cargo box and fling it into the air hard enough to kill/KO an opponent.

A cargo box that size is about 93 lbs when empty and the grapnel more than likely did it's fair share of the work when it pulled the crate. Matt was able to fling Nobu with one arm a similar distance in the Season 2 finale and he likely weighs like twice that much.

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Also, Batman maneuvering in his mech suit which weighs at least 80-100 pounds is it's own workout.

Considering the suit more than likely amps his strength I doubt Batman moving in that so easily is completely

As for Oliver, he has a great deal of trouble dealing with anyone significantly stronger, even if they aren't as skilled as Batman. All of your examples are examples of metahumans Ollie couldn't and didn't KO H2H. He needed either advanced gear, a cure/special sedatives or explosives to hang with them. None of which he'll have in this fight. The same goes for this match-up and Batman is more skilled and faster than anyone on your list. It'll be a good fight but he's going down.

Never said anything about KO'ing them just that he was able to take their hits and still keep fighting. And with Derek Sampson all Oliver needed to beat him was an arrow which he used to slice his tendons to prevent him from moving. Hell right before Oliver decided to go for the tendons, he got Sampson into a hold and broke his arm despite Sampson's strength advantage. The only reason why it didn't do anything was because Sampson can't feel pain.

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As for Matt's durability, he was one kick KO'ed with a shot by Elektra that was less impressive than the one he gets up and fights after in your clip.

Again Matt took more of Elektra's hits including one that sent him flying into a bookshelf and wasn't KO'd. The fact that Elektra KO'd Matt in a setting where there was incense throughout the room that enabled her to one hit KO Luke is enough for me to discount it. Especially where literally every other time Elektra hit Matt or any of the other Defender's they weren't one-shotted.

Honestly, Defenders is a mess when it comes to everyone's strength, speed, and durability. Remember, MAtt has been KOed before by Punisher with Matt's billy club.

No he wasn't. If you're talking about this then you clearly see Matt up and fighting again a few seconds later.

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Matt isn't even at 100% in this episode (or the next episode) since he was concussed from getting shot in the head in the end of episode 1 and he lost control over his senses a couple of times in the episode. Melvin Potter didn't even think that Matt was ready to be out fighting yet.

In any case, we agree that Widow will lose in pure H2H against Oliver or DD. But this isn't pure H2H, she has enough gear with her pistols and stingers to take down either one,

She won't be able to use the guns in a CQC setting against fighters of Matt and Oliver's caliber. Even then Oliver's suit is kevlar and has protected him from gunshots and Matt's suit.

Widow Bites won't KO Oliver and I can't see her tagging either with them before they KO her.

especially since they don't even know her stingers are coming

Matt will know. He's sensed electricity several times before. Hell Matt will most likely know everything Widow has on her person and could use his billy club like nun-chucks to give himself enough space to her from using it in on him CQC.

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and has multiple ways to deploy them.

One of which is a projectile that either could avoid. Panther didn't because he wasn't expecting her to get him instead of Steve and Bucky. Another is thrown and could also be avoided. Bucky didn't because he was looking through the scope of his gun when she threw it. Her best chance is landing it in CQC, but both have taken on faster opponents and have more than enough striking power to keep her reeling. Basically either Matt or Oliver are capable of landing the first blow and with Oliver being strong enough to decapitate a stone statue and Matt being strong enough to snap a 2x4 and kick Bakuto hard enough to break concrete Widow won't be able to take much more of those hits.

Even if they can't KO them, it gives her plenty of time to draw her pistol and put them down.

Again that's not what she does in character. She hits someone with her Widow Bites and assumes they're incapped then goes on to fight someone else. She does that practically every time she used it. She never hit someone with it then went and shoot them just to make extra sure that they were down.

Even then I don't see it slowing Oliver down to the point where he could just pull out a flechette and throw it at her before she gets the chance to shoot him. Same with Matt and his billy club/batons.

AS for them being too fast for her to land a stinger of any sort on them, they've been clipped and grabbed by people much slower and less skilled than Widow. If you're being at all realistic, she'll get them if she tries and then she'll put their lights out.

And they've went almost untouched against people faster than Widow like Malcolm Merlyn, Nobu (Sewer fight & post-Elektra's death), and Bakuto. They kept up with people much faster than Widow like Ras (who killed 8 ninjas in 10 seconds) and Elektra (who killed 10 ninjas in 10 seconds).

Edit: Hell Widow was also grabbed by people slower and less skilled than either Matt or Oliver as well.

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At least they have feats against people faster than Widow and they hit harder.

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#69 Posted by lubub55 (9151 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Posted by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: Thanks. So glad you convinced me to catch up on Arrow.

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#71 Posted by CramAndman (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Well, we've clearly hit the inevitable impasse of subjectivity at the cross-section of inconsistency. Snyder has said that the mech suit doesn't amp Batman's strength, it just increases his durability, so he can take shots from Superman. Whether you agree or not, imo, Batman is strong enough to hurt Matt and Oliver with his shots and fast and skilled enough to block their attacks. As I've mentioned, I agree with you that in pure H2H Widow will lose to either one, but with her shock gear and guns she can take them out. Dismissing her ability to draw her firearm and shoot someone after shocking them is ridiculous. She's shot plenty of people in the past, it's perfectly within her character to do so if the situation warrants it.

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#72 Edited by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

@cramandman said:

@dstreet45: Well, we've clearly hit the inevitable impasse of subjectivity at the cross-section of inconsistency.

Well I guess we could agree to disagree after this post.

Snyder has said that the mech suit doesn't amp Batman's strength, it just increases his durability, so he can take shots from Superman. Whether you agree or not,

I don't based on consistent feats that contradict said statement. I don't see how Bruce could go from having to exert himself in order to pull a 300-400 lb tire on the ground to causally being able to swing Superman through several concrete pillars.

Maybe Bruce would get to prove that he's actually that strong without the mech suit in later movies but for now I can't see him pulling that off without it.

imo, Batman is strong enough to hurt Matt and Oliver with his shots and fast and skilled enough to block their attacks.

And I agree. I just think that Matt and Oliver have striking/strength feats that show that they could hurt Batman as well, durability feats that show that they could withstand his attacks, and have the advantage in speed/agility and skill (even though Batman could keep up with either).

As I've mentioned, I agree with you that in pure H2H Widow will lose to either one, but with her shock gear and guns she can take them out.

My gripe is that since her Widow Bites are mainly CQC based she'll more than likely lose a majority to them before she gets the chance to actually use it. Both hit faster and harder than she does so they'll get more hits in than Widow will and are more likely to block each of her attacks which will prevent her from actually landing a hit on them. She only shocked Ant-Man once when he was literally grabbing it in an effort to restrain her and never shocked him again despite fighting him a few times later on in the airport battle. She fought Hawkeye, someone on her skill level, in the airport fight and she didn't use it on him despite fighting in CQC and fighting with the intention to stop him. I have more faith that Oliver or Matt would land hits, counter her attacks, and KO her before she can hit them with it.

Dismissing her ability to draw her firearm and shoot someone after shocking them is ridiculous. She's shot plenty of people in the past, it's perfectly within her character to do so if the situation warrants it.

It's not shooting people that's the problem, it's you thinking that she will shoot someone she had already thought was incapped by her Widow bite. That's something that's out of character for her to do. She doesn't seem to mind killing if she needs to but she doesn't when she feel like they are already down. And like I said Oliver and Matt are fully capable of throwing their weapons (flechette and baton respectively) at her gun to prevent her from shooting them.

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#73 Posted by CramAndman (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: Based on this last back and forth, I think we've actually come to an agreement on most things. Obviously, I tend to give Batman and Widow the benefit of the doubt in regard to their high end feats, just like you tend to give Ollie and DD the benefit of the doubt on their high end feats. All four of them are somewhat inconsistent, though I see Batman and Widow being the two most consistent of the bunch. IMO, Matt is by far the most inconsistent due to the terrible writing in Defenders. It really is a travesty all around for these kind of debates, you could argue somewhat successfully that DD could beat Ollie and Batman H2H at the same time based on some of his new durability feats.

In the end, i tend to fall back on a certain degree of realism when assessing the outcomes of live action match-ups. Batman is bigger and stronger than Ollie/Matt and since he can keep up with them speed and skill-wise and land his shots, he will do more damage, especially when you factor in his Grapnel gun/magnetic bombs. For me, this wins out in CQC, though Arrow will slaughter him at range. AS for Widow, she's proven herself capable of going up against and outmaneuvering faster, stronger characters using her intelligence and gear. All she needs to do is last long enough to land a Widow sting, like Danny, she's skilled enough to land one good sting and that's all she needs either to KO them or if they're still not going down to help set up a gunshot.

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#74 Posted by joshua755 (1579 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump with justice league coming out and the new season of arrow out maybe people opinions will change with new feats coming out

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#75 Posted by RampageTheFirst (204 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 takes it after a good fight. Cough Cough Black Widow is so hot Cough Cough =D

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#76 Posted by joshua755 (1579 posts) - - Show Bio
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#77 Edited by RampageTheFirst (204 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshua755:

Team 1 has an edge in terms of combat abilities, however team 2 has an edge in the aspect to strategize a well-structured and a well thought-out attack, but Arrow is also a good strategist and can react to unforeseen circumstances and deliver an ordeal attack, as we all know, Oliver's instincts are far beyond that of a humans, he always takes every possibility into account before considering an option.

As for Daredevil, he has a remarkable reaction time and could most likely sense the other team coming from a mile away, hence will have enough time to hurl a pretty good attack at the opposing team, both are quite effective at reacting to unforeseen attacks, Oliver could easily outsmart Natasha, leaving Batman completely vulnerable to every possible attack, both gang up on Batman to take him down, team 1 is victorious, this is the most logical scenario but I could be wrong.

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#78 Edited by RBT (16568 posts) - - Show Bio

Either on team 1 can take down either on Team 2.

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#79 Posted by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

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#80 Posted by joshua755 (1579 posts) - - Show Bio
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#81 Edited by ANTHP2000 (10284 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 and easily. They're both superior to Team 1 unless I see some insane feats for DD, and I probably won't.

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#82 Posted by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio
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#83 Posted by lubub55 (9151 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one stomp. Oliver can solo and Matt can beat either.

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#84 Posted by joshua755 (1579 posts) - - Show Bio

@dstreet45: I seen it been a while forgot you think after justice league this fight will be more interesting

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#85 Posted by KanyeCosby (1751 posts) - - Show Bio

Did Batman get any good feats in Justice League?

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#86 Posted by DSTREET45 (3846 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshua755: haven't seen JL yet. Not sure how it will change but I still thin GA and DD will beat BW.