MCU: Daisy Johnson Vs Black Widow

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Corylamount

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They get their suits shown in the pictures and but no gear.

Daisy is only able to push up to 250 pounds with her powers.

They are 20 feet away.

She can't knockout Widow with her power only push.

Who wins and Why?

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Corylamount

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Nobody

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DarkPsychicLord_Prime

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Daisy breaks her bones

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americanspeeddemon

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Daisy could win without powers imo

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Corylamount

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nfactor1995

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Widow is that confusing MCU character that by all logic IMO should be superior to the Agents of Shield fighters (such as Ward, Bobbi, May, Daisy). But she lacks the feats to definitively put her above them, likely due to merely being a supporting character and the fact that she only has 4 movies of appearances to accumulate feats.

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DarkPsychicLord_Prime

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@corylamount: She won't start right off breaking her bones(she did that to Mack while being mind controlled by Hive), they will trade blows, i'm not sure who has the advantage in fighting skills, but i would incline for Natasha due to her experience and training since child. If Daisy gets overwelmed she will use her powers to push her back, and they will continue fighting. If things get too ugly i believe Daisy would use the breaking bones move so Black Widow won't be able to fight.

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americanspeeddemon

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@nfactor1995: i don't know if I would say logic puts her above him May has more black belts than widow and iirc it was said ward has the same overall combat level or something.

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Corylamount

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nfactor1995

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@americanspeeddemon: Well the whole black belt thing is vague and really only indicates that May knows more fighting forms than Natasha does. There's also the fact that Hawkeye and Natasha seem to be the favorite agents of Shield pre-fall, and now they are both considered Avengers (the studio obviously made the decision to put Widow on the Avengers for some reason rather than May). I don't buy the whole "oh they just happened to be there" argument for why they're on the Avengers.

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RBT

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#11  Edited By RBT

Daisy most likely.

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SPYDA-MAN

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I think sky wins they are about the same skill wise with widow being better cuz this is her life not something she started doing out of nowhere like sky

And anybody remember her shaking the mountain? It didn't break her arms lol. So she can beat widow. I know op said no crazy power usage but bw isn't 250 lbs and blocking a hit should be just fine (lbs of force yes she can hit more than 250 but her actual limb isn't) sky has this. Its like giving widow her guns she will win in most instances against comparable people if her opponent can only use their hands.

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deactivated-5cfd963452ade

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Daisy can snap her limbs. She wins by incap.

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Paytience

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#14  Edited By Paytience

@nfactor1995: That is literally why they are part of the Avengers. In fact, May was offered a spot on the Avengers Initiative by Coulson. Since the initiative was clasified above Widow's clearance level, we can only assume May was made this offer first. This was in 2008, 2 years before Widow was assigned to monitor Stark.

The Bahrain incident however resulted in May being desked, which is why she ultimately was not with the Avengers Initiative.

I do not think it is necessarily true that Widow and Hawkeye are their most highly regarded agents. Remember, Coulson's team was classified above the Avengers. It isn't even clear that they know he is still alive yet.

As for the matchup, I'll take Daisy. But I don't think she'll necessarily win without her powers.

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js_the_beast

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Daisy integrates her powers into fighting alot. Ex: fight against GR. She wins

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Foremostproxy

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May > Widow > Daisy in terms of H2H.

Daisy should win because Widow is heavily reliant on her equipment.

With the power to push, Daisy gets a serious edge just because she can restart the engagement if anything starts to not go well/turn Widow's dodging and blocking into hits and bone breaks.

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DSTREET45

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#17  Edited By DSTREET45

@Foremostproxy said:

May > Widow > Daisy in terms of H2H.

Daisy should win because Widow is heavily reliant on her equipment.

With the power to push, Daisy gets a serious edge just because she can restart the engagement if anything starts to not go well/turn Widow's dodging and blocking into hits and bone breaks.

Agreed with the exception of Widow being over-reliant on her weapons. She could fight well enough without it.

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Arcus1

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The limitations on Daisy's powers make it a bit hard to tell. If she can still at least injure Widow with her powers, then she should be able to win. If all she can do is push Widow away, then it's just a matter of time until Widow eventually wins

Widow is that confusing MCU character that by all logic IMO should be superior to the Agents of Shield fighters (such as Ward, Bobbi, May, Daisy). But she lacks the feats to definitively put her above them, likely due to merely being a supporting character and the fact that she only has 4 movies of appearances to accumulate feats.

I'd say she's got the feats to be above Daisy at the very least. In terms of unarmed combat, maybe not definitely above Ward/Bobbi/May, but give them all their standard weapons and I'd back Widow

@nfactor1995: That is literally why they are part of the Avengers. In fact, May was offered a spot on the Avengers Initiative by Coulson. Since the initiative was clasified above Widow's clearance level, we can only assume May was made this offer first. This was in 2008, 2 years before Widow was assigned to monitor Stark.

The Bahrain incident however resulted in May being desked, which is why she ultimately was not with the Avengers Initiative.

I do not think it is necessarily true that Widow and Hawkeye are their most highly regarded agents. Remember, Coulson's team was classified above the Avengers. It isn't even clear that they know he is still alive yet.

As for the matchup, I'll take Daisy. But I don't think she'll necessarily win without her powers.

The reason they don't know he's alive is due to studio politics, from what I've read. As far as the movies are concerned, Coulson's not around (think that's from an interview or something, but idk for sure)

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Revan-

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@rbt said:

Daisy most likely.

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Foremostproxy

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@Foremostproxy said:

May > Widow > Daisy in terms of H2H.

Daisy should win because Widow is heavily reliant on her equipment.

With the power to push, Daisy gets a serious edge just because she can restart the engagement if anything starts to not go well/turn Widow's dodging and blocking into hits and bone breaks.

Agreed with the exception of Widow being over-reliant on her weapons. She could fight well enough without it.

Widow's Bite discs and garroting wire are a very standard part of her arsenal and she has about half the feats if you remove them.

With standard equip in a normal situation, Widow is nearly skilled and smart enough to incapacitate and kill Winter Soldier... without them, she couldn't hold a candle.

On the other hand... Daisy's feats are pretty much 50% with and 50% without powers and almost not at all reliant on equipment.

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DSTREET45

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#21  Edited By DSTREET45
@Foremostproxy said:

Widow's Bite discs and garroting wire are a very standard part of her arsenal and she has about half the feats if you remove them.

So? She still has respectable feats without them. Some of her fodder clearing feats, beating 3 Russian mobsters while tied to a chair, and beating brainwashed Hawkeye are decent feats that she didn't need her standard gear for. Pretty much similar feats to what Daisy does without her powers. I mean she wouldn't be able to take on Chitauri or Ultron bots but being over reliant with her gear would imply that she's almost useless without them yet she capable of H2H feats that a majority of MCU characters aren't capable of.

With standard equip in a normal situation, Widow is nearly skilled and smart enough to incapacitate and kill Winter Soldier... without them, she couldn't hold a candle.

Again so? Bucky has much better stats and is one of the top CQC fighters in the MCU so far. How is it a knock on Widow for being stomped by someone who would stomp a depowered Daisy anyways?

On the other hand... Daisy's feats are pretty much 50% with and 50% without powers and almost not at all reliant on equipment.

EDIT: Never mind. I misread this sentence. If you said that Widow was more reliant on gear than Daisy I'd agree mainly due to Daisy's powers covering for her when taking on bigger threats. That being said Daisy's powers are heavily nerfed here so while she'll use them a large part of their fight would be H2H and I think Widow is more skilled. However the skill gap between them isn't big IMO and Daisy using her powers to knock Widow off balance is enough of an asset for me to think that she could take it. That being said I think that Widow without her gear is still good enough to make a decent fight out of this.

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AngelJax

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Even with the Handicap, Daisy should take this fight handily.

Even as a rookie, Daisy, was able to have a prolonged fight with Agent 33, who gave May a good fight. Now, her H2H & Quake combo allow her to fight evenly and even beat combatants like Hive, Ghost Rider, and a Kree Reaper.

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Foremostproxy

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@dstreet45: You... are very defensive.

Widow is still plenty good without weapons, but her debuff is serious. From nearly CA level to... well... Much, much less. Removal of weapons leaves her with almost nothing but a bum rush from 20 feet away.

Daisy still has her powers here. Nerfed, sure, but still here, so her debuff doesn't remove options so much as removes the efficacy of those options. She doesn't have to move to an inferior style/mindset, just have her standard style/mindset be less efficient.

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Paytience

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@arcus1: That's irelevant to the continuity though. With exception of word of god statements regarding abilities or incidents that need to be clarified, then I shouldn't have to break immersion to make sense of it. Similar to a lot of my arguments about choreography.

He might not be around because of studio politics but that doesn't change the fact that this is explained in universe as it being classified qbove the Avengers pay grade. (Presumably, Tony Stark knows now though)

If you need further evidence consider that in Russia, and when dealing wih the Sokovia accords, Coulson and his team dealt directly with the President, whereas the Avengers were briefed by the Secretary of State. Also consider that it was Coulson't team, not Cap and the Avengers that took down the various heads of Hydra.

I understand studio politics, but I try to stay from using the 4th wall to explain in universe events, especially when those events are internally consistent.

But that is interesting...I have heard several points on that.

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DSTREET45

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@Foremostproxy:

Sorry didn't mean to seem aggressive and I agree with what you were saying overall. I just don't think that Widow is too reliant on her weapons as a whole. She could still make a decent fight over this IMO but Daisy being able to use her powers gives her the edge.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: That's irelevant to the continuity though. With exception of word of god statements regarding abilities or incidents that need to be clarified, then I shouldn't have to break immersion to make sense of it. Similar to a lot of my arguments about choreography.

He might not be around because of studio politics but that doesn't change the fact that this is explained in universe as it being classified qbove the Avengers pay grade. (Presumably, Tony Stark knows now though)

If you need further evidence consider that in Russia, and when dealing wih the Sokovia accords, Coulson and his team dealt directly with the President, whereas the Avengers were briefed by the Secretary of State. Also consider that it was Coulson't team, not Cap and the Avengers that took down the various heads of Hydra.

I understand studio politics, but I try to stay from using the 4th wall to explain in universe events, especially when those events are internally consistent.

But that is interesting...I have heard several points on that.

I mean, if we wanna start determining battles by level in SHIELD, does that put someone like Coulson above, say, Thor? Or, is Fury above Widow, because he's a higher level agent?

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Paytience

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@arcus1: That is not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that arguing against May based on Widow being more "highly regarded" because of the Avengers is false. Widow ended up as a member largely by accident and not design.

May on the other hand was offered a spot working the initiative at a time when Widow could not have known about it, due to the fact that it is beyond their clearance level. Thus, if we are arguing that their association with the Avengers indicatestheir regard within the agency, which is what @nfactor seemed to be insinuating, then May was technically offered the job first. Natasha (or Clint) for all intents and purposes was the replacement.

So basically, I onky briught up their levels, because it clearly shows that May had the offer first, as Widow was not even cleared to know yet.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: That is not the point I was trying to make. I was saying that arguing against May based on Widow being more "highly regarded" because of the Avengers is false. Widow ended up as a member largely by accident and not design.

May on the other hand was offered a spot working the initiative at a time when Widow could not have known about it, due to the fact that it is beyond their clearance level. Thus, if we are arguing that their association with the Avengers indicatestheir regard within the agency, which is what @nfactor seemed to be insinuating, then May was technically offered the job first. Natasha (or Clint) for all intents and purposes was the replacement.

So basically, I onky briught up their levels, because it clearly shows that May had the offer first, as Widow was not even cleared to know yet.

Oh ok

Course, the movie writers would say that Widow being on the Avengers was not an accident, as May wasn't even a character when Avengers came out

I think saying she was with the Avengers just by accident isn't really accurate

As for the in-universe standing argument, I think the point is-if Widow was ever to meet the agents and fight May, in some MCU production, we both know who would end up winning. At best they'd be portrayed as evenly matched

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AngelJax

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Daisy could win without powers, in my honest opinion. Her with them, even nerfed, make this an absolute stomp.

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DSTREET45

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IMO it'd be a close fight if Daisy was depowered. With them Daisy takes a decisive victory.

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phoenixdiamond616

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May > Widow > Daisy in terms of H2H.

Daisy should win because Widow is heavily reliant on her equipment.

With the power to push, Daisy gets a serious edge just because she can restart the engagement if anything starts to not go well/turn Widow's dodging and blocking into hits and bone breaks.

Ok, maybe May and Romanoff are in constant switch (since both get better everytime they appear), and I do also think Romanoff is really dependent to her equipment (in comparition to May that rarely uses weaponry), but Daisy is also very dependent to her powers. What if she doesn't have powers? and what if Romanoff doesn't have equipment? who do you think would win?

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Drakkis

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@phoenixdiamond616: While I would like to think Widow would win decisively she really doesn't have too many non-gadget feats outside of the beginning of civil war and Daisy has shown a lot of skill sparring with Lincoln and recently Coulson as well as her fight with LMD mace outside of using her powers.

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DSTREET45

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As of now I'm going with Daisy.

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phoenixdiamond616

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@drakkis said:

@phoenixdiamond616: While I would like to think Widow would win decisively she really doesn't have too many non-gadget feats outside of the beginning of civil war and Daisy has shown a lot of skill sparring with Lincoln and recently Coulson as well as her fight with LMD mace outside of using her powers.

Yes she doesn't, but I think Black Widow can take Daisy down and easily because of her experience, and the moveset that she has and that classic movement that she always do with her legs she can do it with Daisy and take her down, like she did to the Russian dude in the Avengers (of course Daisy giving a better fight than that Douchebag).

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AngelJax

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#35  Edited By AngelJax

@phoenixdiamond616: Daisy isn't too dependent on her powers. She's just a capable without them,Widow.......not so much

Daisy's just not gonna stand there and let Widow scissor kick her.

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AngelJax

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#36  Edited By AngelJax

@angeljax said:

Daisy could win without powers, in my honest opinion. Her with them, even nerfed, make this an absolute stomp.

I'll modify my answer and say Daisy wins with or without powers.

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DSTREET45

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I'm going with Daisy with or without powers.

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phoenixdiamond616

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@angeljax said:

@phoenixdiamond616: Daisy isn't too dependent on her powers. She's just a capable without them,Widow.......not so much

Daisy's just not gonna stand there and let Widow scissor kick her.

It's not something that Daisy can avoid easily, Romanoff uses this movement when she has chances, chances that she could have in this fight, and according to one specific fight, she could stay there in her shoulders and start hitting her with her elbow in the head.

I know Daisy is not a character that I should underestimate, something that I was doing with no reason, but c'mon, Romanoff is in top tiers, and if the productors let her fight skilled fighters properly, she would demonstrate she is a really good fighter.

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Number1Boss

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Daisy.

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AngelJax

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@phoenixdiamond616: Daisy reacted to a bullet after it was fired with her powers (when she was inexperienced no less) and you think she'll have a hard time evading Natasha's scissor kick?

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Paytience

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#41  Edited By Paytience

@angeljax: That was her powers though, she doesn't have those reaction speeds when she is controlled. Her powers are tied directly to her pulse, and she has been trained by May to keep it down. At the time, she was in extreme panic, and frankly, didn't have that level of combat ability yet. She has plenty of in combat showings that say she can absolutely react to Romanov with her powers though; countering Hive's punches for example, and intercepting Ivanov's knives.

May has made her a much better fighter and agent, and has made it so she can actually USE her powers; but the result is that she is significantly weaker with her powers most of the time than she is capable of being.

Physically she isn't a bullet timer, but she doesn't have to be. Nobody really has to be. "Bullet timing" or "arrow timing" has always seemed like an excuse for people who make poor tactical decisions. Something that Daisy doesn't typically do. Either way, without her powers I would say Widow takes her. With her powers, even if they are nerfed, she stomps. She basically LIVES with her powers nerfed anyway because they are so destructive. All we're doing here is taking away her need to limit it herself- she is too good at mixing her powers with H2H, and 200 lbs is WWWWAAAYYYYYY more then enough force to break a leg.

Daisy literally crushes her.

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AngelJax

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@paytience: Well, Daisy did bullet-dodge a second time. From a close distance. And then proceeds the take down the guy without much difficulty. With a broken arm, no less.

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Spidersauce

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Based off of what we've seen in movies/the show, Daisy wins with or without powers. If you go off of lore knowledge from comic books for how good Black Widow is, then you must also go off of the lore knowledge that Quake has superior physical attributes: strength, speed, reaction time, endurance, to absolutely any regular human. She is also described as an expert martial artist, trained by Nick Fury and capable of going toe-to-toe with Bobbi Morse. So Daisy still very likely wins, whether you use comic-book lore or not. If Black Widow is supposed to be better in the MCU, the filmmakers simply haven't shown it whatsoever.

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AngelJax

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Daisy. Her powers aren't needed for a majority

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deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4

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Daisy. She doesn't need her powers

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ANTHP2000

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#46 ANTHP2000  Online

Daisy's not on that level yet, unless I'm missing things that everyone else doesn't.

Sure, she's come a long way, but she's not skilled enough to hang with the top agents yet. A good example would be how May was fighting Sinara with an extremely severe injury on her leg and gave her a good fight while Daisy almost barely won, with her powers.

Widow's agile enough to dodge a good bit of her powers, she's faster, far more skilled and has strength and durability showings through her scenes alongside Hulk, Bucky and Chiaturi/Ultron Bots that are every bit as good as any of Daisy's own physical showings.

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deactivated-5b5f22e70aeb7

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Widow held on a alien ship with one hand and got clapped by hulk and still took Clint down and Daisy lost to agent 33 and coulson took down agent 33

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AngelJax

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@psi-lock23: Daisy's fight with 33 occurred in S2 where Daisy was just starting off her agent/fighting career. And even then, Daisy was still able to prolong a fight against someone with years of experience and who was among one of the best and brightest in S.H.I.E.L.D. noted by Coulson.

Daisy would body Kara now

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deactivated-5b5f22e70aeb7

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Widow has to Much experience to lose to a rookie consider against widow