You clicked this thread. You saw Avengers: Endgame. You probably already have your mind made up on this topic having seen the movie. However, when two of the most powerful beings in the Marvel Cinematic Universe square off in a fight to save everyone, who will truly come out on top?
On one hand you have the Mad Titan Thanos, represented by your friendly neighborhood MCU Carol Hater@supremegeneration. On the other hand you have Captain Marvel, represented by the man who keeps coming back@roguespidey2099.
The Battle
Both sides will carry their standard morals. They are in-character and determined to win.
Thanos and Carol are in their standard battle armor; no other gear (no sword or gauntlet for Thanos).
This battle is either to the death or win by KO.
Starting distance is 50 feet.
Both parties start at full health, in their primes.
The Location
As stated, distance is 50 feet
CaV Rules
This is a "Challenge a Viner" debate, only SuperArrow and I are allowed to debate
If you want to be tagged for voting at the end of the debate, say "T4V"
Vote either for who you think was the better debater, or the side that convinced you, not based on which character you think would win
Whatever the case, make sure to be civil about it, there's no reason to get upset over fiction
DISCLAIMER: Since Endgame just came out, gifs are obviously not going to be in top quality.
Just to let you guys know Russo did a Chinese q and a
In all the futures foreseen Ironman was the one to get closest and do the snap
Secondly he also says 'it would not change the fact that thanos would win the war' if Tony didn't snap
Thirdly only hulk could have survived the snap as he was strong enough to do it (that's what he said) and that he wasn't sure if captain marvel could do it but even thor would have died. So marvel is 50/50 for the snap
we thought it was the right time to finally introduce Captain Marvel to the world. She’s one of the most popular characters in our comics, she’s one of the most powerful characters in the comics and will be the most powerful character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Kevin Feige, The GOAT
If you're reading this post, you probably already know Carol's origins, as a brief summary Carol was a US Air Force pilot who was one day exposed to the energies of The Tesseract and gained a variety of abilities, under the Kree Empire she somewhat learned to control her abilities as well as being developed into a decent martial arts combatant through her training with Yon-Rogg, another GOAT character.
Disclaimer: This post is obviously gonna have spoilers for both Captain Marvel and Avengers: Endgame so if you haven't seen either I suggest you go watch both, Also another disclaimer since both Captain Marvel and Endgame literally just came out the gifs and clips being shown aren't exactly gonna be top notch quality. With that said, you've been warned
Powers//Abilities//Versatility:
Due to exposure from The Tesseract Carol developed a variety of abilities which over the years she's learned to use quite competently
Superhuman Augmentations
Photon Blasts
Flight
Unarmed Combat Specialist
Obviously I'll go over into all that stuff (cept maybe the last one) in detail. Here's a very specific clip from Carol's solo movie that combines all that versatility into about a minute of CGI action in particular I'm obviously talking about Carol's feat against the Kree armada.
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0:00-0:22: In this particular scene you have Carol's infamous scene of catching the Kree Ballistic Missile stopping it to a complete halt in about 5 seconds, overpowering its forward momentum and tossing it nearly a kilometer against its thrusters. The missiles themselves were quite huge, and were traveling fast enough to enter Earth's atmosphere a feat requiring at least hypersonic travel speed.
0:50-1:00: Once the Kree fighter jets are released, Carol proves fast enough to maneuver around space while moving at visually fast speed dodging energy attacks from fighter jets for quite a while whilst returning fire with her own energy blasts for quite a while. The following demonstrates a high level of reaction speed from Carol one I'm fairly confident Thanos, or any other character he scales too, has ever shown before.
1:01-1:18: After this, we get a glimpse of Carol's durability and photon blasts as she disintegrates fighter jets with her energy attacks, no sells their explosions and purposely lets them crash into her physical body for the enjoyment.
reviewing this scene alone I'm quite confident claiming that Carol, from a pure feats perspective, has a massive advantage in strength, durability, and overall power level. You could maybe prove he's on this power level through scaling but obviously that's not nearly as concrete as raw feats. Endgame basically extended on Carol's physicality with a pretty massive feat.
Here as Carol joins the Avengers in their fight against Thanos she enters the fight in the most over power fashion ever, absolutely no selling Thanos' ship, Sanctuary's firepower, head on in total flying through probably at least 5 dozen individual powerful energy blasts before bullrushing into the ship itself cleaving a large hole through the ship tearing off one of the wings, then another bullrush finishing the ship off. Note that a single shot of Thanos' ship proved powerful enough to rip through a leviathan and overpower Scarlet Witch's Telekinesis shield and the ship itself was big enough to hold dozens of small skyscraper sized containment units for Thanos' forces.
Conclusion // Opening Thoughts
Now I know the post was a bit short but Carol doesn't have many feats in the first place and I think I showed everything I need to show to prove she can beat Thanos. Carol has the power to hurt and eventually put down Thanos, especially with bullrushes which tore through Thanos' ship with utmost ease. Thanos on the other hand doesn't have the striking power to put down Carol. Again, she flew thru Sanctuary head first and before that no sold the ship's air strike no selling roughly around 5 dozen individual concussive blasts in the span of about 10 seconds. Thanos has never shown the necessary striking power to outperform that.
Also, I know their encounters in Endgame are undeniably gonna get brought up, though for now without going into those encounters since they're going to probably be the main focus of our next posts. I'm gonna throw my opinion on the fight speaking as objective as I can, Carol has every advantage in this fight, with the only debatable stat one being raw strength. Obviously, versatility goes to Carol and by pure feats, she's also the more skilled fighter having outmaneuvered about a half dozen skrulls while being a physical peer to them and outmaneuvering Korath quite casually. If the fight does come down to a brawl, Carol will have the edge. Furthermore, there's also Carol's advantage at range. Thanos doesn't even have any ranged attacks, Carol does and they're quite powerful and evidently strong enough to push The Mad Titan backward, stagger him, and eventually put him down.
Because I'm lazy and we all know who this badass is, I shall shamelessly copy and paste his MCU Wiki intro (massive Endgame spoilers, of course):
Thanos was the genocidal warlord from Titan, whose own main objective was to bring stability to the universe, as he believed its massive population would inevitably use up the universe's entire supply of resources and condemn it. To complete this goal, Thanos set about tracking down the Infinity Stones, as the combined might could wipe out half the universe. Thanos forged alliances with Loki and Ronan the Accuser in order to track down some of the Stones, however both alliances cost Thanos much of his resources, including the Mind Stone and the loyalty of his daughters, Gamora and Nebula. Fed up with all his subordinates' continued failures, Thanos forced Eitri to create the Infinity Gauntlet for him, while Thanos then opted to seek out the location of the six Infinity Stones himself.
Thanos engaged in a ferocious crusade in order to obtain the Infinity Stones. During his mission, both Thanos and his Black Order invaded multiple planets and slaughtered thousands to gain the stones, including Loki and the Asgardians. This quest even forced Thanos to sacrifice his beloved Gamora in order to take the Soul Stone. Thanos soon found himself challenged by an alliance comprising the universes greatest teams, which included the Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. However, despite facing off against the powerfully combined opposition and the wrath of Thor, Thanos still ultimately triumphed and completed the Infinity Gauntlet - using it to finally complete his goal and had caused the Decimation, resulting in half of all life in the universe being wiped out at the snap of his fingers.
Three weeks after the Decimation, Thanos was ambushed on his garden in Titan II, where he revealed that he had destroyed the Infinity Stones to ensure the Decimation's success. At this revelation, he was promptly decapitated by Thor.
In an alternate 2014, Thanos was alerted to the events of the Infinity War by a time traveling Nebula, resulting in him swapping the present Nebula for her future self and allowing him to travel to 2023. There he laid siege on the Avengers to ensure the success of the Decimation. When confronting the Avengers, Thanos was grateful to them for making him realize that he must use the Infinity Stones to destroy the universe and rebuild it in his image. His final crusade ultimately led to his demise as Iron Man had secretly usurped the Stones moments before Thanos's triumph, and had manifested an Infinity Gauntlet on his arm before using it to decimate Thanos and his armies - thus finally killing the Mad Titan and ending his reign once and for all.
Now the thing about (base) Thanos in the MCU is that he is entirely devoid of versatility. The phrase "Hulk on steroids but uber skilled" is often used, and it's true. He's quite literally a brick - but a powerful one. He tanks hits like nobody's business, and he can deal the damage too. He's also got armor and a sword (the latter not being used here) on top of that, making him a truly dangerous foe to anyone he may cross paths with (on his level, of course...).
Let's go over exactly what makes the Mad Titan such a dangerous foe now.
The Genghis Khan of the MCU: Physicals & Skill
In order to quickly set the tone for just how physically imposing the Mad Titan is, I'll present an all too well-known fight, that is the opening smackdown that Thanos gave the Incredible Hulk and my personal favorite scene of Infinity War. It's all I'll show in terms of general physicals for this opener, as I believe it sets the tone incredibly well for just how hard Thanos is going to be put down as well as just how hard the Mad Titan can hit.
First let's discuss what this fight was meant to establish:
When asked about the fight, Joe Russo, co-directed of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame had the following to say:
This is to show that Thanos, the Genghis Khan of the Marvel Universe, he's unbeatable in 1-on-1 battle. He's conquered thousands of worlds. He's a much more polished fighter than the Hulk, and Thor, and Loki.
Stephen McFeely, co-writer of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame had this to say:
We want to announce Thanos as the biggest villain in the MCU, he takes out the previous reigning champion, and by defeating Hulk relatively savagely and easily...
As you can see, this scene is set up to show that Thanos is a physical beast, and an outstanding one. He takes out the "previous reigning champion" - the freaking Hulk - rather easily. It's a point to the writers that Thanos is unstoppable, and even someone as unfortunately powerful as Carol isn't going to change that.
But enough of that on-paper crap that no one should actually care about. Let's talk about this in terms of raw feats.
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Time-stamped at the legendary "We have a Hulk" at 0:25, Thanos takes a surprise bullrush from the Hulk followed by three absolutely brutal punches straight to the head, followed by two double-slams onto his shoulders, and then he gets slammed hard into the ship, twice.
Needless to say that this absolute onslaught is something not even other powerful beings on Hulk's level are bound to take easily, yet Thanos not only seemingly no-sells this, he proceeds to grab Hulk's arms and completely overpower the green behemoth. Given the Hulk's mere backhands can one-shot Hulkbuster replacement parts and send them flying fast and hard enough to one-shot the satellite dispersing them, and that his punches can completely bend Chitauri metal and stop the insanely massive Chitauri Leviathans in their tracks, Thanos taking this kind of insane beatdown is enough to say that the Mad Titan is not going down easily. The Hulk is also strong enough to catch and toss a tank, making overpowering him so casually insanely impressing.
Then, in a single hit, he causes Hulk so much pain that he screams out and holds the area where he was hit. This is something no other being in the Marvel Cinematic Universe has accomplished, to the best of my memory. However, what follows is a true display of Thanos's strength and skill. He takes precisely a >dozen< hits to knock out the physical powerhouse of the Avengers. This includes the first hit and the throw onto the ground. Given the fact that the Hulk got up mere seconds after a direct head to the head from Mjolnir, I'd call this insanely impressive. How about three back to back hits from Thor's warhammer, as well as another one to his body that sends him flying? Completely and utterly tanked. Recall that Thor himself is an insanely powerful physical powerhouse, yet that last hit only served to get Hulk mad enough to catch Thor's next attack.
Putting the Hulk down as casually as Thanos did, not to mention tanking that many hits from a being of the Hulk's power, is insane, and not something I can see Carol replicating as casually as the Hulk did. This level of physicals is near unheard of, and I'd argue that this isn't even the limit of what we've seen Thanos do in terms of overall tankiness and damage output.
Throughout all of this, Thanos also blocks three punches from the Hulk, and for the first two punches he blocked, he landed two of his own. That is to say, Hulk attempted a punch and got hit twice, twice. The third time around, Thanos landed the final brutal combo that put the Hulk down for good. Thanos also dodged a punch, hitting the Hulk before he could turn around. While the Hulk isn't exactly the most skilled guy in the world, he's got a few accolades and feats. He was the champion of the Sakaarian arena for two years, going undefeated in his entire time on Sakaar. He also seemingly trained often with Valkyrie. Featswise he's been able to land some decent combos on Thor, as well as beat Thor to the punch on a hit. While Thor is ultimately holding back, it's not like he wants to get hit. Thor himself is incredibly skilled, being capable of taking on various Asgardian Soldiers with a reach advantage on him (1)(2). And sure, the Odinson proceeds to dominate the Hulk in a straight up fight a while later, but I still thought these were worth mentioning.
It pains me so much to admit that Carol could beat the Hulk down like this based on raw feats, I just don't see her doing it as convincingly as Thanos did.
Thanos & Carol's Fights: Analysis & Counters
My opponent made a handful of statements throughout his post, and I want to point out one in particular that I have a disagreement with.
... Carol, from a pure feats perspective, has a massive advantage in strength, durability, and overall power level. You could maybe prove he's on this power level through scaling but obviously that's not nearly as concrete as raw feats.
Most people would think that I'm getting ready to contest what my opponent calls Carol's "massive advantage[s]", but no, I want to focus on his latter statement. My opponent asserts that "obviously", scaling isn't as concrete a raw feats. If this were any other medium, I'd agree. However, both of these characters have only two appearances and have actual fights with one another. We know where they stand in comparison, and this utterly nullifies whatever feats you might bring forth. They had two different fights that I've broken into a couple different encounters. I will now break down all of these.
The objective chain of events is as follows: Thanos looks up, reacts to Carol's blast, gets bullrushed by Carol, recovers, get put in a headlock, and begins overpowering her leg force on his arm with his burned, weakened arm. This is objectively what happened before the Hulkbuster arrived. From this we can draw that even in a weakened state he can take her blasts, outright tank her built-up attacks (bullrushes), and gradually overpower her.
During the final battle of Avengers: Endgame, after Carol has brutally taken down the Sanctuary, Thanos is about to put on the Infinity Gems once more... for the first time. Time travel, whatever. Anyways, she lands a sneak attack directly on his knee which pushes him down a bit, she punches him in the face, reacts to a punch of his, blasts him square on the chest, punches him again, lunges for the gauntlet, and gets thrown away.
They have no contest of strength this time around, but again we see that Thanos can outright tank the best of what Carol has to dish out energy-wise and physicals wise. She couldn't so much as put a scratch on him. I won't claim that he directly hurt her because she wasn't focused on him, but his throws clearly pack a punch on her as she was out for a few seconds.
Because I know I have to show all of them, here's the next one... Carol comes out of nowhere a mere moment before Thanos can snap his fingers on Stark's glove. I do want to note a couple of things. For starters, she does in fact overpower his one arm. However, she did so extremely gradually and it took her a full 10 seconds to do so. Second of all, yes, she no-sells Thanos's headbutt. However, this doesn't mean that his punches will be unable to put her down either.
We've already seen Carol going all out on Thanos (the literal fate of the universe is at stake, try to tell me she's not pulling her punches, I dare you) and fail to hurt him significantly. While the same can be said for Thanos, he tried all of two attacks (with base stats) on her. She no-sold his headbutt and was seemingly out for just a little bit from the throw. The likelihood of him putting the hurt on Carol is far more plausible than vice versa.
As you can see, I start the gif from before Carol flies upwards. Anyways the bit I want to specifically point out here is Thanos's position relative to Carol. He's on the ground with an arm on the floor holding him up. Carol's putting the entire force of her body downwards, meaning she has the advantage. However, even after Thanos lifts his left arm off the ground in order to take out the power stone, that's about 4 seconds (give or take; they don't show the arm coming off the ground so I added an extra second but three is still a ton for Carol's supposed "massive" advantage to overtake Thanos) that he >held Carol perfectly in place while she was moving downwards<.
Ultimately, I believe these two powerhouses are comparable, but the notion that Carol come off as decisively superior is one embedded in either forgetfulness or disingenuity. A Thanos with a burnt, weakened arm was blatantly overpowering Carol and had the rest of the Avengers not showed up, he would have finished doing so. From there, the fight is anyone's guess.
Their final encounters display them as comparable as well. Thanos literally tanked EVERYTHING that Carol had to dish out, and he still wasn't anywhere close to being done. Given the dire situation, any notion of her holding back should be dismissed completely out of mind. Where Thanos might struggle to put Carol down, we know that Carol will struggle to put Thanos down.
So, I posit that their fights, while ultimately inconclusive due to context (interrupted or special gear used) showcase them as comparable. Thanos might struggle to hurt Carol, but Carol WILL struggle to hurt Thanos. The Mad Titan took some absolutely insane beatings that Thanos throughout the events of the final battle in Avengers: Endgame, and still proceeded to tank everything Carol dished out. While Thanos, with a headbutt, did appear to fail to hurt Carol, I do believe his striking in punches can eventually overcome her durability.
There's nothing wrong with scaling so long as it's consistent. Via scaling, Thanos is consistently at or above Carol's level. This fight is close, but I find that ultimately there will be one victor, and it's the Mad Titan. You stated things like:
Carol has the power to hurt and eventually put down Thanos, especially with bullrushes which tore through Thanos' ship with utmost ease.
And I submit the gif posted above, of him in a weakened state utterly tanking her bullrush (keeping in mind that at that point, and to be fair any point, in the movie, no one would be holding back as it is the only chance they have at saving the universe). She could repeat bullrushing, but Thanos could just as easily keep getting back up. He literally tanked her bullrush in the same movie where she got one of her most impressive feats to date - if not the most impressive feat of hers.
The notion that scaling is somehow inapplicable is incorrect in every sense. I'd agree if Carol and Thanos had never fought each other, but they did, twice, and she failed to so much as leave a mark on Thanos. Now sure, he failed too, but I also want to show that there's been an opponent who he's headbutt and punched, with the difference showing quite largely:
Here, Thanos utterly no-sells a surprise bullrush from Iron Man, deflects his nanotech sword off his gauntlet, and headbutts him a decent distance away. Not a lot, but a noticeable amount.
Contrast Thanos's above headbutt to the distance that he sent Stark skidding; not only is it noticeably larger as seen at the end of the gif, but it's also worth noting that Tony blocked the punch with both of his hands. This means that at full force without impediment, Thanos's punches pack a lot more force than his headbutts.
Now of course, he's still going to struggle massively to hurt Carol, I'll be the first to admit this, but that doesn't make her infallible. At the very least she won't be no-selling his punches as she did his headbutt. It's worth mentioning that while she didn't flinch from the heabutt, she was seemingly moved a millimeter. Furthermore, she only no-sold his headbutt after seemingly amping herself to some really high levels. I have yet to see her movie, but the more she glows, the more powered up she is.
Conclusion
My opponent is correct, and I'll be the first to admit it. In terms of raw, quantifiable feats, Carol outclasses Thanos. However, he is incorrect where it pertains to scaling. Just because scaling is involved, this doesn't mean the feats can be thrown out the window. When Carol has blatantly and on-screen failed to do anything noteworthy to Thanos, her striking feats don't really matter. Her bullrushes don't either, as again, Thanos has blatantly on-screen received no damage from Carol's bullrush.
The only issue here is whether or not Thanos can eventually put Carol down, and I obviously wouldn't be doing this CaV if I didn't believe as such. I'll get more into how Thanos can hurt, react to, and continue tanking more blows from Carol in my next post, because I believe he has all the tools needed to take an absolute beating from Carol and keep fighting.
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