I still don’t see CM winning this tbh. She’s sooo slow in cqc and her strikes frankly were weak. The only things that were very impressive was her durability and travel speed. I guess destructive capabilities as well. Although she does have a better lifting feat with the warhead, I’d say that WW just because she’s been in more movies has better striking feats with and without her sword.
WW 6/10
Can you show me these "better striking feats without her sword??
Wonder woman is outclassed hear and their is nothing to suggest she can get past Captain marvel’s energy forcefield or survive one serious hit that can nuke ships the size of city blocks
@death4bunnies: She’s produced shock waves multiple times with her unarmed strikes. I’m a little busy atm so I don’t have time rn to get any gifs or anything. I will get videos of them when I get time.
There are some people that try to say that visuals don’t mean anything (mach cones and shockwaves) and that they’re “unquantifiable.” But in order to produce the shockwaves they have to be able to break the speed of sound. CM hasn’t done this with any of her strikes, she’s staggered Thanos slightly. Not as much as Mjolnir Cap did.
And even if we agree that they don’t, the only other people who have produced shockwaves with strikes have been kryptonians. So this tells us her strikes are in the same ball park as theirs. And they undoubtedly could hurt her with their strikes.
Also I’ve seen people say that Marvel handles their visuals differently. But I’ve seen two mach cones and several shockwaves on screen. I think marvel doesn’t want to portray their characters as that powerful for the sake of realism.
@eri123: The one she gets in her Binary form we saw it in her solo movie when she grabbed Korath’s sword and again in Endgame when Sanctuary 2 was firing at her the blasts where cought is some kinda of photon shield instead of hitting her directly
@death4bunnies: She’s produced shock waves multiple times with her unarmed strikes. I’m a little busy atm so I don’t have time rn to get any gifs or anything. I will get videos of them when I get time.
There are some people that try to say that visuals don’t mean anything (mach cones and shockwaves) and that they’re “unquantifiable.” But in order to produce the shockwaves they have to be able to break the speed of sound. She hasn’t done this with any of her strikes, she’s staggered Thanos slightly. Not as much as Mjolnir Cap did.
And even if we agree that they don’t, the only other people who have produced shockwaves with strikes have been kryptonians. So this tells us her strikes are in the same ball park as theirs. And they undoubtedly could hurt her with their strikes.
Also I’ve seen people say that Marvel handles their visuals differently. But I’ve seen two mach cones and several shockwaves on screen. I think marvel doesn’t want to portray their characters as that powerful for the sake of realism.
Heres the thing, anytime I produce a shockwave or a show of power it seems to be discounted immediately for various reasons. Im seriously not trying to be obtuse, I just don't understand how every bit of visual evidence I show get discounted, mostly based on the different stylization of the VFX. As too the MCU having shockwaves sometimes and sometimes not has a lot to do with the different teams and directors of the different marvel movies.
Let me try to give a relevant example, I can show Carols punching power 4 ways.
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"Unquantifiable shockwave". This is the least quantifiable of the showings id like to present. It has some kinda energy release, but it seems to be a palm strike.
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"Speed vs Mass". Here Carol is traveling at supersonic speeds(low end) and hitting, and being hit by other things at supersonic speeds.
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"Environmental Destruction". Carol has punched through multiple large spaceships at some pretty fantastic speeds.
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"Scaling". Thanos has tanked hits from the Hulk, Mjolnir, Thor, and a spaceship crashing into him without damage. She was definitely winning this exchange, and she seemed to be the only Avenger who could take base Thanos in a strait fight.
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Its just hard for me to overlook all of this because of a Zach Snyder style mach cone.
@death4bunnies: I do agree that Carol’s destructive capabilities are much higher than Diana, she’s an amazing bulldozer. IMO, the Hulk and Thor have only ever had like one punch each that were undeniably powerful. Other than that I wouldn’t say they’re good to scale to. I’d much rather scale her to mjolnir. That’s much more impressive.
With Scaling Diana is in the same tier as Pre-Motherbox Superman, Zod, Faora, and Doomsday. All of these characters have stunned and staggered Superman with their strikes. Diana also did this stationary, so with momentum she could hit much harder. I think her top speed that I’ve seen was supersonic (side note).
I would say based on the evidence we presented that they’re in the same tier at least.
@death4bunnies: I do agree that Carol’s destructive capabilities are much higher than Diana, she’s an amazing bulldozer. IMO, the Hulk and Thor have only ever had like one punch each that were undeniably powerful. Other than that I wouldn’t say they’re good to scale to. I’d much rather scale her to mjolnir. That’s much more impressive.
With Scaling Diana is in the same tier as Pre-Motherbox Superman, Zod, Faora, and Doomsday. All of these characters have stunned and staggered Superman with their strikes. Diana also did this stationary, so with momentum she could hit much harder. I think her top speed that I’ve seen was supersonic (side note).
I would say based on the evidence we presented that they’re in the same tier at least.
Btw, who disregards visuals you present?
With visuals it usually goes something like this.
"Those ships arnt durable". I have a gif of a Kree ship no selling hitting a ocean at massively hypersonic speeds.
"Everything in the MCU explodes when you hit it". Like the Mcu ships carry unstable nitro or something.
"Thanos didn't even splatter Cap". Its a Disney movie.
"Hulk v Thanos didn't do any environmental damage there for Hulk was underperforming". I take things like this as directors choice.
And the worst "no mach cone or shockwave = not impressive". I mean the Hulk vs Thanos fight was visually unimpressive, but we know Hulk can no-sell a 50 cal. and produce shockwave like punches(against abomination and against Hulk buster), we've seen Hulk go toe to toe with Thor. I don't think the fact that Hulk and Thanos didn't produce shockwaves takes away from the fact that Thanos's punches > 50 cal. or rather Thanos's punches > Hulk's shown durability feats.
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IDK man I don't want to turn this into a bitch session, but visuals from different franchises, hell even the same franchise can be completely different.
A example would be DCEU Shazam. They showed speed using entirely different VFX, Shazam nor his family ever make mach cones when they break the sound barrier; I don't think the lack of a mach cone should discount the other ways we can measure speed.
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OT: I think Diana (without gear) is about on the same level as MCU Hulk, how she lifted a tank, and rag dolls humans, and can bust through the walls of buildings is about on this level.
I don't think Diana scales well to Superman based on that headbutt, he was clearly a bit above her in both durability and striking power, however because it rocked his head back id put her at a low high tier. I could see Hulk replicating that I headset I guess, based on his own striking feats, I don't think Superman can 100% no sell a beast who can collapse glaciers, or run through a concrete bunker.
In strength and striking I have it at
MCU Carol. (blitzed a spaceship while being hammered by 30+ shot of artillery, threw a building sized missile against its thrusters). tied with Superman
DCEU Superman. (Busted the world engine while flying through a beam that could flatten buildings, flew with a apartment building). tied with Captain Marvel
MCU Thanos. (overpowered Thor and Hulk in strait up arm wrestling matches.)
MCU Thor (pulled giant space rings, with his weapons has quite a few strikes that have done massive damage)
DCEU Diana. (Knocked DD off of his feet with a shield bash)
MCU Hulk. (busted a glacier, one shotted a leviathan, held up a large portion of eveners HQ)
DCEU Aquaman. (can lift a Submarine underwater)
There are feats of both striking and strength that Carol has that I don't think Diana could replicate.
Like throwing this missile against its thrusters.
Or no-selling 30+ shots off artillery from Thanos's ship before flying through it. Those shots she flew right though were capable of this.
I don't think Diana is physically (without gear) on this level.
I think Diana's win conditions come from her Sword.
@death4bunnies: I scaled her to Pre-Motherbox Superman btw. Also I’m not arguing strength tbh. It’s pretty well known that strength doesn’t always equal striking. I also agree that CM’s durability is on another level. But these destructive capabilities are way above the level she performs at when fighting people. Her actual punches are nowhere near sanctuary busting or world engine level. She’s a bulldozer.
And I’m still of the opinion that the warhead feat is more propulsion than strength. She caught it (which was nice ngl). But it continued to push her back. It was only after her propulsion and energy bloom increased exponentially was she able to overpower and throw it. Part of it strength but mostly propulsion. I’d compare this more so to Aquaman’s submarine feat.
I’m pretty sure Thor’s ring feat was debunked on a thread. Don’t remember which though so I’ll leave it.
She was overpowered by Thanos weakened arm in the hut at the beginning of the movie. So I’d say he’s stronger than her.
Most of the visual effects were left out of Shazam because budget. MCU movies are well funded, they choose not to add these.
I don’t see her replicating the leviathan feat, the lightning punch from Thor, or the drop of blood feat. But she’s stronger than all of these characters, strength and striking do not correlate all the time.
@death4bunnies: I scaled her to Pre-Motherbox Superman btw. Also I’m not arguing strength tbh. It’s pretty well known that strength doesn’t always equal striking. I also agree that CM’s durability is on another level. But these destructive capabilities are way above the level she performs at when fighting people.
And I’m still of the opinion that the warhead feat is more propulsion than strength. She caught it (which was nice ngl). But it continued to push her back. It was only after her propulsion and energy bloom increased exponentially was she able to overpower and throw it. Part of it strength but mostly propulsion. I’d compare this more so to Aquaman’s submarine feat.
I’m pretty sure Thor’s ring feat was debunked on a thread. Don’t remember which though so I’ll leave it.
She was overpowered by Thanos weakened arm in the hut at the beginning of the movie. So I’d say he’s stronger than her.
But feats wise sure she’s stronger, but none of these helped in her fight with Thanos.
Most of the visual effects were left out of Shazam because budget. MCU movies are well funded, they choose not to add these.
This is my exact point. These feats show Carol power, Thanos resisting this kinda strength just shows his power, it shouldn't take away from what she's already shown on screen.
As to the Thanos thing, she 100% no sold his headbutt, and was fighting about on par with him(I think he is more skilled) she was beating him, you can see it in his eyes, then he resorted to using the powerstone. I think its fair to say that Carol was about to win that fight and would of if no infinity stones were involved.
I disagree her that Carols strength didn't come into play against Thanos, she did the best 1v1 outta any of the Avengers.
I can point to a few other instances of DCEU "forgetting" mach cones but my point is that even tho Carol doesnt produce mach cones while flying at massively hypersonic speeds shouldnt take away from the fact that Carol flys and sometimes hits things at mach + speeds.
An example.
This is a atmospheric bullrush. You can see the trail she leaves. This is probably mach +. No mach cone tho.
Other people also like to point out that the bullrush didn't destroy the cabin, but again I think that is just a VFX decision and shouldnt take away from the feat.
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Thors ring feat im not even going to try to quantify, those rings were massive tho. Some people say he didn't use his own strength only Rockets ship, but the way I look at it is if you braced your feet against a curb and held on to a rope whilst the car tried to drag you away. He has to exert equal strength with his core to avoid being drug.
Others say that the mechanisms of the forge kicked in and Thor only had to get it moving a little bit to break the ice. Im cool with this assumption. but for the force that Thor and Rocket produced to even be felt across miles long rings would require massive strength.
Unquantifiable, but impressive.
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I think even with propulsion the warhead feat stands, I mean flight power shouldnt take away from what superman can lift or what Aquaman can life(underwater).
She also kinda threw it with her arms, but again I don't think her energy signature should take away from the feat.
She also flew lightyears while dragging the ship Tony was stuck in, then landed it non earth with no real sign of strain.
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Im not just referencing strength, but also striking. I don't think Diana could do this without gear for example; I don't think she has striking feats that suggest she can punch though multiple layers of metal at speed.
@death4bunnies: I deleted the portion you replied to because I disagreed with myself. I think most high tier characters can do what she did to that ship, tbh.
The feat your referencing is different than hers, nothing is assisting him with the lift, he’s coasting. She literally had to increase her propulsion so that she could overpower the thrusters. If she were able to throw it, she would have thrown it. But she couldn’t without increasing her thruster power. Even Aquaman’s submarine feat doesn’t really show him increasing his propulsion to lift the submarine.
Her striking just doesn’t match her supposed strength. The only thing that genuinely was bruising and making Thanos grunt in pain was Mjolnir (Scarlet Witch as well ig).
I just think her striking is only impressive if she bulrushes something.
@death4bunnies: I deleted the portion you replied to because I disagreed with myself. I think most high tier characters can do what she did to that ship, tbh.
The feat your referencing is different than hers, nothing is assisting him with the lift, he’s coasting. She literally had to increase her propulsion so that she could overpower the thrusters. If she were able to throw it, she would have thrown it. But she couldn’t without increasing her thruster power. Even Aquaman’s submarine feat doesn’t really show him increasing his propulsion to lift the submarine.
Her striking just doesn’t match her supposed strength. The only thing that genuinely was bruising and making Thanos grunt in pain was Mjolnir (Scarlet Witch as well ig).
I just think her striking is only impressive if she bulrushes something.
Btw, people count ram through things as striking?
I count ramming through things as striking, especially the gif I presented where she is actively punching her way through the ship.
I don't think Diana has the feats to suggest she can replicate.
Captain Marvel is clearly punching here, like a bunch of times.
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Here is the missile scene with sound. She clearly throws the missile with arm strength, she struggles, she kinda powers her self up, but she throws it with her arms not propulsion.
@death4bunnies: I’m not talking about her punching through it specifically, just in general. I’ve seen people say that Superman has mountain level striking.
We can agree to disagree about Wonder Woman being able to replicate.
I admitted that she used some strength in the warhead feat, but I think how much she used is debatable. Because she had to use more propulsion.
Carol lacks the damage output to easily put her down. Her strikes so far against established characters aren’t that impressive. She also likes to brawl so she’s likely loses because she’s definitely going in cqc. She’s only faster in travel speed. Her best blitz would only daze Diana so far that we’ve seen.
People need to stop acting like she stays at a distance and kites. That’s not her.
@erkan12: What does this prove? Has she broken anything that’s even Uru level? Diana’s sword has way better feats than that Kree sword. Diana’s slashes will have way more force behind them than his slashes.
Her slashes are strong enough to cut through several durable characters. And this one created a shockwave I think.
Diana‘s sword has better feats than Uru weapons. It isn’t a laser sword. She doesn’t have the feats that suggest she can survive a slash from an opponent on this strength tier with this powerful of a weapon. Diana is pretty close to BvS Superman in strength.
The energy bombardment makes sense that it wouldn’t hurt her. She absorbs energy and she had her aura up when she destroyed it. Her base stats aren’t nearly as high as her stats with her aura.
@hermes1220: Doomsday is an incredibly stupid beast, even Hulk is a fighting genius compared to DD. She only did that due to Doomsday's mindless nature, attacking to same point where she can slice his arm easily. And she did that only one time then she continued to get stomped by Doomsday's strength.
And secondly, Carol has better durability. For example, I never see Doomsday getting no damage from an alien laser sword or breaking it easily. Carol has that.
Third, Carol has better strength feat such as holding back a Kree spaceship against its power and throwing back hundreds of meters through the atmosphere.
@erkan12: I’m not talking about whether she lost or won the fight obviously. I’m showing the sword’s piercing power. Carol is weaker than Doomsday. Diana was able to no sell one of his punches on a slim edge and restrain him. As well as knock him over with a shield swipe with no momentum. I would say he’s about 2x stronger than Diana if not slightly more. Which puts her pretty equal to BvS Superman because he performed a similar feat.
She was able to catch it, yes. Nice durability feat. But it was only after she increased her propulsion was she able to completely overpower it and throw it. Still a nice feat though.
Your example is pretty bad.
I’m also laughing at the fact that the gif you posted only has her throwing it.
@hermes1220: Carol is more powerful than Doomsday, she can destroy a Kree spaceship fleet in less than a minute, and she destroyed gigantic Sanctuary II in mere seconds, even after taking its full bombardment.
Show me a piercing durability feat from Doomsday which rivals that Carol's laser sword feat.
I don't remember Doomsday ragdolling spaceships through the atmosphere.
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