MCU Captain America/Winter Soldier vs CW Legends team

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Arcus1

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#1  Edited By Arcus1

Captain America and Winter Soldier:

No Caption Provided

VS

Team Legends of Tomorrow:

No Caption Provided

When Captain America and the Winter Soldier take on this team of heroes from CW's Legends of Tomorrow, who will win?

Team consists of everyone shown in the picture: Hawkman, Firestorm, Atom, White Canary, Hawkgirl

Cap has his shield. Bucky is unarmed. Standard weapons for the Hawks. Sara has any weapon she was shown to use in the show (staff, sword, guns, shuriken, I think that's everything)

No shrink ray or transmutation for Atom and Firestorm (since they've never used them intentionally in combat anyway)

Fight takes place in Nanda Parbat, where the Sara fought Kendra and the team fought Chronos. They start on opposite sides

All are in character. Victory by ko or death

Round 1: No shrinking for Atom

Round 2: Atom can shrink

Who wins?

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nickzambuto

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#2  Edited By nickzambuto

The more I look at Cap and Winter's fight with Iron Man, the less impressed I am. Ironically I'm the guy who's always supporting the idea of skill and wit overcoming raw power, and I figured if Steve could stall Ultron singlehandedly, it's perfectly feasible for him and Bucky to defeat Iron Man, despite Iron Man's collosal strength. Yet the way the fight was choreographed, it seems the Russo's didn't agree, and they chose to go the method of brute power, nerfing Iron Man to incredible degrees and somehow portraying both Steve and Bucky as actually being STRONGER than him. And yet they were both still on the losing end, despite somehow having the physical advantage, meaning Iron Man was the one fighting the most skillfully...

Bucky was straight up just boxing and brawling with Tony and trading blows on completely even ground, soaking just as many as he landed. Cap was better than that, but considering the aforementioned fact that he apparently holds the physical advantage over Iron Man, it's not as impressive...

Vandal Savage's feat against Atom was way better. Ray is a solidly skillful fighter by this point, using excellent boxing combos, not to mention the power and invulnerability of the Atom suit. Savage straight up curbstomped him as soon as the battle started, controlling his own momentum to first blast Captain Cold and Heatwave, then forcing his own gauntlet up to his face plate and blasting him at point blank range. In about three seconds, Vandal Savage, with no prep, just thinking on his feet, found a way to not only defeat the Atom, but use him to his advantage towards soloing the rest of the Legends (nearly). Now Savage was depowered during the finale, but all of his skill was still in tact, and both Sara and Rory straight up surpassed him. Sara was outfighting the Pilgrim, a physically identical or superior Time Masters super-assassin just through sheer skill, and Rory was the only one to battle a Hunter hand-to-hand, and even go so far as to win. MCU Super soldier physicals are nothing new to Arrowverse master fighters, by this point both Mick and Sara are outright top tiers... Although I just now realized Mick isn't in this battle, but that's okay because between the two, Sara is no doubt slightly more skillful. After her two years under Ra's al Ghul, she outfought Chronos in melee fair and square, landing many sword hits on him and only being impeded by his armor. Therefore I see no reason why she couldn't battle Captain America or Winter Soldier on relatively even ground, at least for a period of time, even giving them a good slice and dice if she uses a sword, and then you add a few powerhouses on top of her and... I don't like the two super soldier's odds.

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The more I look at Cap and Winter's fight with Iron Man, the less impressed I am. Ironically I'm the guy who's always supporting the idea of skill and wit overcoming raw power, and I figured if Steve could stall Ultron singlehandedly, it's perfectly feasible for him and Bucky to defeat Iron Man, despite Iron Man's collosal strength. Yet the way the fight was choreographed, it seems the Russo's didn't agree, and they chose to go the method of brute power, nerfing Iron Man to incredible degrees and somehow portraying both Steve and Bucky as actually being STRONGER than him. And yet they were both still on the losing end, despite somehow having the physical advantage, meaning Iron Man was the one fighting the most skillfully...

Bucky was straight up just boxing and brawling with Tony and trading blows on completely even ground, soaking just as many as he landed. Cap was better than that, but considering the aforementioned fact that he apparently holds the physical advantage over Iron Man, it's not as impressive...

Vandal Savage's feat against Atom was way better. Ray is a solidly skillful fighter by this point, using excellent boxing combos, not to mention the power and invulnerability of the Atom suit. Savage straight up curbstomped him as soon as the battle started, controlling his own momentum to first blast Captain Cold and Heatwave, then forcing his own gauntlet up to his face plate and blasting him at point blank range. In about three seconds, Vandal Savage, with no prep, just thinking on his feet, found a way to not only defeat the Atom, but use him to his advantage towards soloing the rest of the Legends (nearly). Now Savage was depowered during the finale, but all of his skill was still in tact, and both Sara and Rory straight up surpassed him. Sara was outfighting the Pilgrim, a physically identical or superior Time Masters super-assassin just through sheer skill, and Rory was the only one to battle a Hunter hand-to-hand, and even go so far as to win. MCU Super soldier physicals are nothing new to Arrowverse master fighters, by this point both Mick and Sara are outright top tiers... Although I just now realized Mick isn't in this battle, but that's okay because between the two, Sara is no doubt slightly more skillful. After her two years under Ra's al Ghul, she outfought Chronos in melee fair and square, landing many sword hits on him and only being impeded by his armor. Therefore I see no reason why she couldn't battle Captain America or Winter Soldier on relatively even ground, at least for a period of time, even giving them a good slice and dice if she uses a sword, and then you add a few powerhouses on top of her and... I don't like the two super soldier's odds.

I don't agree about Cap and Bucky being portrayed as stronger than Tony. Strong enough to compete, sure, but it seemed pretty clear to me that Tony was the strongest one there. Even if not by an overwhelming physical margin, he had the advantage of all sorts of weaponry, flight, etc. The super soldiers showed good strategy by working to disable those things, like damaging his flight systems or targeting

I also don't think Iron Man was nerfed to that incredible a degree. The closest reason I can see to think that he could have been nerfed would be looking at his fight with Thor in Avengers. However, he was amped for that fight, and it would seem the amp affected him more than maybe we thought at first (at least more than I thought). Thor was also moderately weakened by the journey to Earth, as explained in the tie in comics. The fact that Cap could compete as well as he did just shows how much stronger he's gotten

As for Bucky just boxing with Cap, it makes sense that they'd want to favor rapid offense, do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible, keep close and keep applying pressure to prevent him from making effective use of his other ranged weapons

50s and 70s Savage wasn't as good as his present/future self. In the past, Savage lost to Hawkman solo, and the only reason he didn't die was because it had to be Kendra who used the knife. But in the Flash/Arrow crossover Savage easily beat Hawkman, and Cater clearly still wasn't a match when he fought future Savage solo

Also, while the Pilgrim and the Hunters were superhuman, none of them demonstrated physicals on the level of Bucky and Cap. The only area they have them in is piercing durability

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nickzambuto

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@arcus1: Bucky outright grabbed Iron Man's arm when he tried to use a repulsor and forced him up into the air. He overpowered him directly, and that was with the organic arm. The metal arm on the other hand was so much stronger than Iron Man that it crushed the armor in its grip. Cap freakin grabbed onto Tony's boot and held him back from taking off with only one arm. Tony's best strength feats involve his thrusters, this means Cap was a LOT stronger than him. Of course that normally wouldn't make sense, but in Civil War Iron Man was merged and his best strength feat was forcing open an elevator door. Three cars falling on top of him was enough to create "multiple contusions" in his armor. The guy from Age of Ultron would have tanked that. The Russo's Iron Man barely had super strength and was much weaker than a super soldier. The only advantages Tony had at all was durability, and the ability to fire repulsors out of one of his hands. Cap and Winter were BOTH stronger than him, faster, more maneuverable and agile, more experienced, and had OP shield and bionic arm. And yet Tony was fighting just as skillfully as Bucky. Your theory about Bucky brawling because he wanted to deal rapid damage doesn't change the fact that he was getting hit just as much as he hit. That isn't impressive when Tony doesn't even specialize in martial arts. They were just brawling. Steve beating on a guy who he had every conceivable physical and mental advantage over besides sheer durability isn't impressive. When you dissect the fight, from a feats perspective it's really quite disappointing.

I'd like to point out that Savage was toying with Hawkman in the 70s. As soon as Hawkman seemingly pinned and stabbed him, Savage started busting out laughing and revealed that the whole time, Hawkman wasn't actually able to kill him at all, before casually forcing the knife out of his gut and reversing it on Hawkman in two seconds. 70s Savage was fine.

Pilgrim and the Hunters literally tanking bullets like actual tanks obviously puts them on Captain America's physical tier if not above. You can't just scrutinize and specify the exact feat to such a degree "they're only advantage is piercing durability." Pilgrim was definitely faster than Cap given she had the reflexes to react to hard-light blasts, nuclear blasts, the cold and the heat gun all simultaneously from different angles while surrounded and freeze them all.

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The Legends Team wins both rounds with Firestorm as MVP.

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#6  Edited By ILostTheKey

MCU

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: Bucky outright grabbed Iron Man's arm when he tried to use a repulsor and forced him up into the air. He overpowered him directly, and that was with the organic arm. The metal arm on the other hand was so much stronger than Iron Man that it crushed the armor in its grip. Cap freakin grabbed onto Tony's boot and held him back from taking off with only one arm. Tony's best strength feats involve his thrusters, this means Cap was a LOT stronger than him. Of course that normally wouldn't make sense, but in Civil War Iron Man was merged and his best strength feat was forcing open an elevator door. Three cars falling on top of him was enough to create "multiple contusions" in his armor. The guy from Age of Ultron would have tanked that. The Russo's Iron Man barely had super strength and was much weaker than a super soldier. The only advantages Tony had at all was durability, and the ability to fire repulsors out of one of his hands. Cap and Winter were BOTH stronger than him, faster, more maneuverable and agile, more experienced, and had OP shield and bionic arm. And yet Tony was fighting just as skillfully as Bucky. Your theory about Bucky brawling because he wanted to deal rapid damage doesn't change the fact that he was getting hit just as much as he hit. That isn't impressive when Tony doesn't even specialize in martial arts. They were just brawling. Steve beating on a guy who he had every conceivable physical and mental advantage over besides sheer durability isn't impressive. When you dissect the fight, from a feats perspective it's really quite disappointing.

I'd like to point out that Savage was toying with Hawkman in the 70s. As soon as Hawkman seemingly pinned and stabbed him, Savage started busting out laughing and revealed that the whole time, Hawkman wasn't actually able to kill him at all, before casually forcing the knife out of his gut and reversing it on Hawkman in two seconds. 70s Savage was fine.

Pilgrim and the Hunters literally tanking bullets like actual tanks obviously puts them on Captain America's physical tier if not above. You can't just scrutinize and specify the exact feat to such a degree "they're only advantage is piercing durability." Pilgrim was definitely faster than Cap given she had the reflexes to react to hard-light blasts, nuclear blasts, the cold and the heat gun all simultaneously from different angles while surrounded and freeze them all.

What about when he stopped Cap's shield and easily disarmed him? What about when he had Bucky pinned down? What about when he sent Bucky and Cap flying with hits? Yes, Cap and Bucky were strong enough to compete with Tony, but they weren't stronger than him. And, physicals aside, Tony still had a significant advantage with all the weaponry in his suit

Iron Man wasn't hurt by three cars falling on him. He was slightly injured by Scarlet Witch pulling cars down on top of him. That's a feat for Wanda. Besides, he showed no signs of significant injury afterwards, so it's not like he was actually hurt by it. We just got a comment from Friday about contusions.

Iron Man's feats from previous movies are still a valid way to measure how strong he should be. Yes, he has some changes to his armor, but with the exception of IM3, he hasn't been getting weaker or anything. Cap has shown a trend of getting stronger each movie, at this point he's just reached a level where he can contend with IM level opponents. That's consistent with how he was hanging with Ultron in AoU

When the Pilgrim can send a car crashing off the road with one hit, or when the Hunters can pick up motorcycles, or when any of them can kick a truck and have it hit a person to send them flying, then we can say they're as strong as Cap and Bucky. But the fact remains, they don't have equal strength feats. Pilgrim didn't use her time manipulation against Sara

70s Savage also got beaten by Rip. Hawkman couldn't catch a thrown knife from Savage in the present, but he easily caught one thrown by 70s Savage. You can try to blame the Rip fight on PIS, but it doesn't change the fact that all of Savage's good feats come from his present and future self-after he discovered time travel and made contact with the time masters. The most logical explanation is that, somehow-either from time travel or from the time masters, Savage got boosted to the practically superhuman level he was at in the crossover and future. Or you can try to say he was always that good, but that explanation requires PIS, Savage just letting himself get stabbed by Hawkman, and the meteors making him weak enough for Sara and Mick to beat, even though they only effect they were supposed to have on him would be making him mortal, not physically weaker

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buildhare

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The Hawks and Sara are non-factors.

Firestorm has the damage output but not the skills or durability to avoid being taken early.

If Atom is at the best of his abilities he could damn near carry his team (R2 only though) but here he just wanders in and gets a fist shaped hole through his face plate.

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birdman400

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#9  Edited By birdman400

Firestorm solos , he can transmutate anything , or he can just burn them lmao

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StaticDwanyeMcduffie

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@birdman400 said:

Firestorm solos , he can transmutate anything , or he can just burn them lmao

He has to concernation on the object who says that mcu team is going stand there

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deactivated-5cfefdb3f097d

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This thread. *facepalm*

Hawkgirl & Hawkman take out Cap. Sara and Atom get rid of Bucky.

Firestorm dances.

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Arcus1

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#12  Edited By Arcus1

@birdman400 said:

Firestorm solos , he can transmutate anything , or he can just burn them lmao

He hasn't shown to be able to regularly do that in combat, once was a complete accident and the other required a ton of concentration

@thehunter said:

This thread. *facepalm*

Hawkgirl & Hawkman take out Cap. Sara and Atom get rid of Bucky.

Firestorm dances.

Why do you think those pairs would be able to beat Cap and Bucky?

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deactivated-5ad4cb41c7fb8

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@birdman400: You can't say the "F" words. It's against da rules.

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@arcus1: Hawkman was skilled enough to take on both Arrow & Flash. Hawkgirl took on Savage by herself with the mace thing.

Sara could hold her own against Bucky on her own. ATOM should be more than enough to tip the scales on their favour by a lot.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: Hawkman was skilled enough to take on both Arrow & Flash. Hawkgirl took on Savage by herself with the mace thing.

Sara could hold her own against Bucky on her own. ATOM should be more than enough to tip the scales on their favour by a lot.

Hawkman lost against Arrow and Flash. The mace negated Savage's immortality and was a special weapon to hurt him. Plus Cap's better than Savage

Sara wouldn't be able to hold her own against Bucky for long, look at what happened to Black Widow

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@arcus1: Did I say he won?

She wouldn't have been able to land a hit if she wasn't skilled enough. That's just like a knife to a normal human. For the sake of argument, even if Cap was better than Savage, Hawkgirl & Hawkman will be ganging up on him.

Lolblackwidow. Right. Cos Natasha's definitely worth shit.

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Arcus1

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@thehunter:

As soon as Flash and Arrow worked together, Hawkman went down

Cap's definitely better than Savage, the only possible area Savage is better in would be speed

Yes, actually she is. Sara might be better, but kid to such a degree that she will be able to actually hold her own against Bucky

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#18 JediXMan  Moderator
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deactivated-5a0c8d423f980

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@nickzambuto: You make good points

But tell me... Why does Iron man have to be nerfed to contend with Cap

People always say its PIS but the truth is we never knew how strong he really was

We still don't

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Arcus1

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Bump

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Cap and Buckey would take down everyone but Firestorm, who would eventually jack them both up. I don't even know if it's POSSIBLE to knock out Firestorm. If that's the case, Captain America, could probably do it with a shield through. If not, he and Buckey are eventually toast.

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MarcusAllen

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Firestorm solos

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Arcus1

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Most of the Legends are jobbers, however Firestorm could solo.

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Firestorm solos.

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HeroUp2112

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@arcus1: True enough I suppose. Okay, my money is on Captain America and Buckey in that case.

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Arcus1

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@g2_ said:

Firestorm solos.

No he doesn't

Most of the Legends are jobbers, however Firestorm could solo.

How is he supposed to solo?

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StaticDwanyeMcduffie

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@arcus1 said:
@g2_ said:

Firestorm solos.

No he doesn't

@firedude17 said:

Most of the Legends are jobbers, however Firestorm could solo.

How is he supposed to solo?

I don't think cap can withstand nuclear blasts

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Arcus1

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@arcus1 said:
@g2_ said:

Firestorm solos.

No he doesn't

@firedude17 said:

Most of the Legends are jobbers, however Firestorm could solo.

How is he supposed to solo?

I don't think cap can withstand nuclear blasts

Firestorm doesn't have that level of power output, he can't actually cause a nuclear level blast

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StaticDwanyeMcduffie

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@arcus1 said:
@staticdwanyemcduffie said:
@arcus1 said:
@g2_ said:

Firestorm solos.

No he doesn't

@firedude17 said:

Most of the Legends are jobbers, however Firestorm could solo.

How is he supposed to solo?

I don't think cap can withstand nuclear blasts

Firestorm doesn't have that level of power output, he can't actually cause a nuclear level blast

I'm pretty sure he has it's been in like small fireballs he even said they were nuclear blast

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Arcus1

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@staticdwanyemcduffie: well yeah, but those blasts aren't anything Cap and Bucky couldn't tank. Plenty of other people have

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depinhom

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???

Legends wreck!

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Arcus1

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Arcus1

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#38  Edited By depinhom
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Ray literally steps on them.

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Arcus1

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@depinhom: ok....? @lemonpeace: he can't grow giant regularly, he needed special prep and power from the Wave Rider, which he doesn't have here

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TheSuperor

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I don't see how this is a fair fight

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Arcus1

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Firestorm is enough to do it. Atom might be of help too.

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TheSuperor

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#44  Edited By TheSuperor

@arcus1: Both Firestorm and Atom could solo imo.

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Arcus1

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@thesuperor: @thecapeddetective: I don't see Firestorm soloing, Atom certainly isn't (I guess an argument could be made for round 2, but definitely not round 1)

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TheSuperor

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@arcus1: Ray isn't soloing round 1, but round 2 he could, they can't really spot him while he's shrunk. He could also use all of his toys to do some real damage. He has all kinds of blasters and shrink rays. His armour is bulletproof as well, so he could solo the second round.

As for firestorm, how can they hurt him? He has multiple ways to put them down. I have a hard time seeing how they can stand up to him.

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Arcus1

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@thesuperor:

Same way they hurt guys like Iron Man? He's not that durable, and the fight takes place in an enclosed area. His offensive output also isn't so high that they couldn't stand up to it

As for Atom, even with shrinking he doesn't usually stay shrunk

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@arcus1: It's not often we have seen Firestorm hurt, I can only think of the time when he got shot with some sort of laser. It isn't like they could just punch him. Firestorm can also fly which means there isn't much for them to do.

Ray doesn't usually stay shrunk, but he has shown the ability to rip through a human body, similar to a bullet. And he can still use his electrical beams that knocked Roy out in season 3 of Arrow and his shrinking beam. He doesn't need to stay shrunk through the whole fight. I think Ray has too much to offer for Cap and Bucky to beat him.

As for the Iron man suit, how durable is it really? We have seen it take massive hit, but also get destroyed by a truck. I don't really think we can use that as a measurement because it's so inconsistent.

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Arcus1

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@thesuperor:

It's not often he's actually been attacked by someone like Cap or Bucky either. He hasn't demonstrated durability so high that Cap and Bucky couldn't hurt him

The enclosed room only offers him so much room to evade, plus Cap's shield is good for range

The one that got destroyed by a truck was a prototype that sometimes just randomly fell apart

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@arcus1: Firestorm tanked a nuke and a RPG missile, I doubt Cap and Bucky has higher damage output than that. (Even though the nuke is probably because of his nuclear powers).