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#1 Posted by deactivated-5ace9ec1d0243 (3439 posts) - - Show Bio

No shield for cap/webs for spiderman.

Morals off.

Who wins?

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#2 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

By stats alone, spiderman would definitely win. But even as the airport battle indicated to me, Cap is way more skilled, and not unbearably outstatted.

I say cap wins in a good fight, imho.

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#3 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43439 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off should put Spidy over the top, but I’ve only seen Homecoming once.

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#4 Posted by deactivated-5a8bb3f79ca5d (23 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve isn't putting Peter down with his fists if Shocker's hits didn't do it.

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#5 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

Horrible mismatch, in Civil War Pete still tanked all of Steves hits. Post homecoming can shrug off a hit from shockers gauntlet and Vulture slams. Steve cant even put him down. Also, hes morals off as well? Pete rips his head off.

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#6 Edited by xtreme1 (4106 posts) - - Show Bio

Spidey

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#7 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@tj849 said:

Horrible mismatch, in Civil War Pete still tanked all of Steves hits. Post homecoming can shrug off a hit from shockers gauntlet and Vulture slams. Steve cant even put him down. Also, hes morals off as well? Pete rips his head off.

Normally I might agree, and by logic, I would agree. But the fact is, if we was that powerful, he shouldn't have had any problem just shredding Cap the moment that airport battle between them came into play. The shield shouldn't help much vs Spider-Man at all here. But that isn't how it went down...

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#8 Edited by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve isn't putting Peter down with his fists if Shocker's hits didn't do it.

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#9 Posted by camilopezo (2083 posts) - - Show Bio

By stats: Spiderman.

By words of Tony: Cap

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#10 Posted by ANTHP2000 (28775 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not confident that Steve can put him down without the shield before getting taken down himself.

But he's going to make it a good fight with his far superior skill.

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#11 Posted by NinjaWarrior268 (12013 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiderman. He's fast enough to hit Cap and without his shield, any attempt to block Spidey's punches will result in damaged bones.

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#12 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain. It's is implied that Steve could lay him out whenever he wanted. Their fight was also onesided

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#13 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@ninjawarrior268: I know Spidey has ridiculous strength feats, on par with some of the IM suit feats... But some of the Steve durability feats show me that I don't think his bones breaking will be that common here from properly defended blows here... Despite me knowing Spider-Man will be able to hurt him. It is just that the skill gap is visually seen as huge.

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#14 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain. It's is implied that Steve could lay him out whenever he wanted. Their fight was also kinda onesided

And its the new iman. How is Steve putting down a morals off Pete? And their fight wasnt one sided.

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#15 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain. It's is implied that Steve could lay him out whenever he wanted. Their fight was also onesided

Quite sure Tony was referring to a fully geared Steve against an in character Peter. Here he doesn't have his shield and can't do anything to put Peter down.

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#16 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@tj849:

Steve has the power to hold a helicopter, and his skill is enough to make it count. Go watch the one episode of Trauma: Life in the ER where it goes into the guy who was loco and roided up taken by the one smart nurse who understood no matter how much stronger or durable a person is, if you simply apply basic pressure to things like shutting off the blood flow - you will knock spidey out before too long. There are ways Cap can be clever in hurting spiderman in a h2h confrontation. Quite a few of them actually.

And yes, I do think Cap's skill can potentially be that much of a difference to do that here.

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#17 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie:

Steve is strong enough.

It would take him a lot of time and hits but Steve figured out what Peters gameplan is. Tony donated Peter a free hit. He couldn't hit Cap once he figured out what he Peter is going to do.

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#18 Edited by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain said:

@socajunkie:

Steve is strong enough.

It would take him a lot of time and hits but Steve figured out what Peters gameplan is.

He doesn't hit harder or nearly as hard as Shocker so no he isn't strong enough.

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#19 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (7695 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiderman should stomp he fodderized Bucky who can compete with Cap

Spiderman is to strong and durable

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#20 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio
@socajunkie said:
@originalcaptain said:

@socajunkie:

Steve is strong enough.

It would take him a lot of time and hits but Steve figured out what Peters gameplan is.

He doesn't hit harder or nearly as hard as Shocker so no he isn't strong enough.

Question: Do you think morals off Cap (the case here), is strong enough to poke peter's eyes out? I think he easily is. And do you think Cap is near good enough to do that? Since the civil war seen, I think the answer has to be easily yes.

Spider-Man may be way more durable, but he isn't outside of contention durability here, not by a long shot.

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#21 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: That's not very logical. Just because Shocker couldn't KO him with 3 punches doesn't mean Cap can not with 50 punches/kicks for example - Cap could hurt him 'As long as you can hurt somebody you can also KO him or wear him out to the point you can eventually KO him

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#22 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvelanddcfan24 said:

Spiderman should stomp he fodderized Bucky who can compete with Cap

Spiderman is to strong and durable

You mean when bucky tried to hit him, and he was shocked that he was out-muscled, and then got clowned because of that one failed attack when SM grabbed his metal arm and then hit him? And the rest of it being decided on webs? Yeah, that isn't the case here on either surprise of strength or webs; and we already saw the Cap - SM fight too, and that gives us way more details; and no - he isn't too strong and durable. He definitely is more strong and durable than cap by a large margin; but not out of contention levels here. Enough where the skill here I think decides it.

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#23 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

Question: Do you think morals off Cap (the case here), is strong enough to poke peter's eyes out? I think he easily is. And do you think Cap is near good enough to do that? Since the civil war seen, I think the answer has to be easily yes.

I think the likelihood of him getting into a position like that is far-fetched considering if he's that close to a morals off Spider-Man he won't get a chance to do that despite having better skill.

Spider-Man may be way more durable, but he isn't outside of contention durability here, not by a long shot.

Steve would have use unconventional ways of dealing damage which limits his effectiveness by a considerable degree.

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#24 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie:

You are implying he would be selling out to be unconventional all the way, and that he would be so outclassed that he wouldn't even get a chance. I disagree with both, from the airport scene as a reference.

Cap is fantastic enough with what he is doing where he doesn't need to be selling out here for those openings. He just needs to play it somewhat safe and use his skill to stay around for that game plan; especially against someone without too much skill like SM who would probably open himself up sooner rather than later. And Cap can linger that long here, definitely.

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#25 Posted by deactivated-5ace9ec1d0243 (3439 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: That's not very logical. Just because Shocker couldn't KO him with 3 punches doesn't mean Cap can not with 50 punches/kicks for example - Cap could hurt him 'As long as you can hurt somebody you can also KO him or wear him out to the point you can eventually KO him

Shocker hits with enough force to toss buses like toys, that is exponentially more force than Cap has been seen to deliver and that disparity in durability and striking force isn't getting overcome any time soon and putting an arbitrary number on it isn't going to change that.

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#27 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie:

You are implying he would be selling out to be unconventional all the way,

Which he'd need to be to be effective.

and that he would be so outclassed that he wouldn't even get a chance.

Peter's own stats, spider-sense and general mobility means I doubt Cap would be able to poke his eyes out so easily.

I disagree with both, from the airport scene as a reference.

The scene where Cap had his shield and Spider-Man had his webs, both factors making this fight much different.

Cap is fantastic enough with what he is doing where he doesn't need to be selling out here for those openings. He just needs to play it somewhat safe and use his skill to stay around for that game plan; especially against someone without too much skill like SM who would probably open himself up sooner rather than later. And Cap can linger that long here, definitely.

Sure, man.

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#28 Posted by Amcu (17073 posts) - - Show Bio

@frankthetank40: Haven't made up my mind. I kinda think that in universe Steve wins easily at least until Peter is shown to have clearly developed and to have gotten better(I do think that this will happen and eventually Peter will be able to stomp Cap). However it is hard to see him putting Peter down permanently. On the other hand I actually think Peter felt that kick of his. I'm not sure.

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#29 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: Characters with not the same dmg out put can still reach that level with more strikes. If I am not mistaken Shocker hit him twice and Peter was dazed and unable to defend himself.

I'd say any character with super strength can reach this level of force given enough time. I doubt we will come to an agreement

Counter-argument how hard does Peter hit ? Because Steve is also quite durable and I don't recall Peter having punched anybody

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#30 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: Characters with not the same dmg out put can still reach that level with more strikes.

Peter is morals off too and isn't going to stand there and let Cap hit him as many times as he wants, though the latter will land hits due to his skill, Peter's own mobility and durability means he isn't getting put down and Cap won't be fighting long enough to bridge that striking power disparity he has with Shocker.

If I am not mistaken Shocker hit him twice and Peter was dazed and unable to defend himself.

And he got back up with no lasting damage.

I'd say any character with super strength can reach this level of force given enough time. I doubt we will come to an agreement

Yea we won't.

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#31 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: He did not get back up with no lasting dmg. Didint his friend save him from getting hit again ? He was hurt and dazed.

Why wouldn't cap fight long enough ? What can Peter do to finish the fight quickly- I don't recall him punching anybody or having noteworthy Striking power himself.

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#32 Edited by TheOneWhoPullsTheStrings (2746 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhopullsthestrings said:

Which he'd need to be to be effective.

Only if he didn't become unconventional at all. If you are using it when you can, and not overly selling it, it is an entirely different animal.

Peter's own stats, spider-sense and general mobility means I doubt Cap would be able to poke his eyes out so easily.

All he would need to do is put himself into a position where avoiding it would be more difficult, this is about fighting the battle with intelligence. I agree, out of the blue, sure, him going directly for any kind of KO move will be swatted down.

The scene where Cap had his shield and Spider-Man had his webs, both factors making this fight much different.

You're right. Those webs certainly didn't help spiderman way more, and that shield somehow knocked Spidey around that much... If anything, I think that actually adds emphasis here in favor of Cap with us removing those two things. For instance, it wasn't his shield making him naturally more powerful, but us seeing that with his own strength he can use spider-man's own webs against him if he just tried to web his hands, etc - without his shield in play. Think about that. And neither of them will have either of them here.

Sure, man.

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#33 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: He did not get back up with no lasting dmg. Didint his friend save him from getting hit again ? He was hurt and dazed.

Dazed and then he got up...with no lasting damage.

Why wouldn't cap fight long enough ? What can Peter do to finish the fight quickly- I don't recall him punching anybody or having noteworthy Striking power himself.

The striking power to send Cap flying in a similar manner to how Cap sent him back with a kick. However I doubt the fight would last long since morals are off and Peter has far greater lifting strength so if it comes to a grapple he has an advantage.

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#34 Edited by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhopullsthestrings:

Only if he didn't become unconventional at all.

?

If you are using it when you can, and not overly selling it, it is an entirely different animal.

Okay.

All he would need to do is put himself into a position where avoiding it would be more difficult, this is about fighting the battle with intelligence. I agree, out of the blue, sure, him going directly for any kind of KO move will be swatted down.

Okay.

You're right. Those webs certainly didn't help spiderman way more, and that shield somehow knocked Spidey around that much

That much? He hit him literally once with the shield and needed it to incap Peter.

... If anything, I think that actually adds emphasis here in favor of Cap with us removing those two things. For instance, it wasn't his shield making him naturally more powerful, but us seeing that with his own strength he can use spider-man's own webs against him if he just tried to web his hands, etc - without his shield in play. Think about that. And neither of them will have either of them here.

This isn't adding much to the argument for a h2h only fight.

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#35 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie:

He dazed Peter and had him on the ground unable to defend himself. At this point you are just stating your opinion. That's dealing dmg whether you think he dealt lasting dmg or not is not my point. He arguably still could have Knocked him out with 1 more hit. I don't know if you have fighting experience but dazing someone is not a good sign. Followed blows lead to a KO

I could easily use your own words against you since Cap showed no lasting damage when Peter hit him but I won't because I am aware of the fact that SpiderMan can do damage. Cap is still quite durable and can take a lot of his hits. So Peter knocking Steve out would also take him a lot of time.

The only problem I see with Peter is actually landing blows. Steve figured out what his strategy is and once he figured it out, Peter couldn't hit him anymore

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#36 Edited by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain said:

@socajunkie:

He dazed Peter and had him on the ground unable to defend himself. At this point you are just stating your opinion. That's dealing dmg whether you think he dealt lasting dmg or not is not my point.

Yeah I don't think you know what lasting damage is which is what I was arguing.

He arguably still could have Knocked him out with 1 more hit.

Which says nothing for Cap since he's vastly inferior in striking power.

I don't know if you have fighting experience

Oh I do to put it lightly.

but dazing someone is not a good sign. Followed blows lead to a KO

Once again, Shocker hits with exponentially more force than Cap can produce and Spider-Man isn't going to stand make it easy for Cap to land x number of blows.

I could easily use your own words against you since Cap showed no lasting dmg when Peter hit him

...Which would be vacuous since we're using Shocker as a comparison, guy who hits harder than either of them

but I won't because I am aware of the fact that SpiderMan can do dmg.

Not the same thing.

Cap is still quite durable and can take a lot of his hits

I'm aware.

The only problem I see with Peter is actually landing blows. Steve figured out what his strategy is and once he figured it out, Peter couldn't hit him anymore

You can't say he couldn't hit him any more indefinitely based on under 20 seconds left of the fight.

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#38 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie:

Why are you arguing something that is irrelevant to this fight ? That was not my point. You brought this point up with no reasoning. Peter was at the verge of Ko. Lasting damage or not is not relevant.

Lasting damage matters because it shows how fast his recovery is and if the fight stalls he will have time for said recovery.

He is indeed inferior in striking power but again like I said. Given enough time he can reach to force necessary to put him down.

Yea, really don't see that happening considering the gap he has to close and the likely short time the fight will last and Peter won't make it easy for him.

It would not be Vacuous because of the shocker example.

Yes it would be.

What makes this contradictive is the shocker fight. You whole point is that shocker did no lasting damage when Peter did no lasting damage to cap either.

And...Cap did no lasting damage to Peter and the Shocker example means Cap has a gap he's unlikely to bridge.

It is the same thing.

Not really.

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#39 Posted by modernww2fare (7226 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve isn't putting Peter down with his fists if Shocker's hits didn't do it.

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#40 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie:

Yeah I don't think you know what lasting damage is which is what I was arguing.

I know what lasting damage is, but I think what you are arguing is pointless.

Which says nothing for Cap since he's vastly inferior in striking power.

Again given enough time - Cap could reach the level of force with more hits. He doesn't have to kncok him out him with only a few blows.
Cap got also hit with more force than SpiderMans kick that still does not prove Peter can not KO him given enough time.

Oh I do to put it lightly.

?

Once again, Shocker hits with exponentially more force than Cap can produce and Spider-Man isn't going to stand make it easy for Cap to land x number of blows.

It was already easy the first time they fought when Peter had the advantage of his webshooters. Cap landing hits would not be an issue. But SpiderMan landing some will be

...Which would be vacuous since we're using Shocker as a comparison, guy who hits harder than either of them

It would not be. Steve himself got hit harder before and was perfectly fine. Peter hit had barely any effect on him. Also let's not forget "No lasting damage"

Not the same thing.

It is.

I'm aware.

And yet you can not prove the opposite which makes you inital point still mood. How does Peter kncok Steve out ?

You can't say he couldn't hit him any more indefinitely based on under 20 seconds left of the fight.

20 seconds showed that Peter will struggle to hit Cap even with web shooters while Cap would have no problem hitting him.
Also yes I can because Peter didint come close at hitting him once Steve figured out what his gameplan was

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#41 Edited by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain said:

@socajunkie:

I know what lasting damage is, but I think what you are arguing is pointless.

Based on what? Recovery matters.

Again given enough time - Cap could reach the level of force with more hits. He doesn't have to KO him with a few blows.

How long do you see this fight lasting and how easy do you think a morals of Peter will be to hit?

Cap got also hit with more force than SpiderMans kick doesnt mean Peter can not KO him eventually.

Cap doesn't have durability showings akin to taking Shocker's hits so this comparison is moot.

?

?

It was already easy the first time they foguht when Peter had the advantage of his webshooters. Cap landing hits would not be an issue. But SpiderMan landing some will be

Easy? That wasn't easy for either of them and Cap using his shield to incap indicates he didn't want a prolonged fight.

It wouldnt be. Steve himself got hit harder before and was perfectly fine. Peter hit had barely any effect on him

Once again, Cap has no durability feats on the same level so no it isn't the same thing.

It is.

It isn't.

And yet you can not prove the opposite which makes you inital point mood. How does Peter KO Steve ?

So Peter hits Steve once and it didn't have much of an effect, the same vice versa and based on this you came to the conclusion that Peter is never capable of hurting Cap?

20 seconds showed that Peter will struggle to hit Cap even with web shooters while Cap would have no problem hitting him.

Their hits are 2 to 1.

Also yes I can because Peter didint come close at hitting him once Steve figured out what his gameplan was

This is erroneous. They didn't have a prolonged sequence and for you say that Peter will never hit Cap because he failed to do so after trying again literally only once after their first scuffle is ridiculous.

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#42 Edited by deactivated-5ad4cb41c7fb8 (3527 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd actually be willing to represent Cap in this matchup in a CaV if anybody's interested.

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#43 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@tj849 said:
@originalcaptain said:

Captain. It's is implied that Steve could lay him out whenever he wanted. Their fight was also kinda onesided

And its the new iman. How is Steve putting down a morals off Pete? And their fight wasnt one sided.

The new "IManWIthoutFearI" ? Dude you literally saw this profile on the same day commenting the same. Right after I deactivated my old account and you still couldn't figure out that this is me ?
Put 1 and 1 together

I wanted to start all over with a new account.

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#44 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain: Lol thats what I meant smh, the new iman, I knew it was you. Anyway, nice to see you back. You really think a guy whos wa-.. nevermind.

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#45 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: I will respond when I am back from work. Would be nice if you would also tag me in the other debate (TASM SpiderMan, Raimi Spider-Man Vs MCU Team) so we can continue this one as well.

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#46 Posted by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@tj849 said:
@originalcaptain said:

Captain. It's is implied that Steve could lay him out whenever he wanted. Their fight was also kinda onesided

And its the new iman. How is Steve putting down a morals off Pete? And their fight wasnt one sided.

The new "IManWIthoutFearI" ? Dude you literally saw this profile on the same day commenting the same. Right after I deactivated my old account and you still couldn't figure out that this is me ?

Put 1 and 1 together

I wanted to start all over with a new account.

Oh it really is you? I couldn't be sure since the posting style appeared a little different.

Now that I know I'm not bothering with this thread anymore.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@tj849 said:

@originalcaptain: Lol thats what I meant smh, the new iman, I knew it was you. Anyway, nice to see you back. You really think a guy whos wa-.. nevermind.

I wasn't really gone, but thanks I guess :P

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#48 Edited by SocaJunkie (8903 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain said:

@socajunkie: I will respond when I am back from work. Would be nice if you would also tag me in the other debate (TASM SpiderMan, Raimi Spider-Man Vs MCU Team) so we can continue this one as well.

  1. Don't bother, I'm not interested in this anymore
  2. I tagged your old account for that thread but I'm not interested in debating that either
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#49 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio
@socajunkie said:
@originalcaptain said:
@tj849 said:
@originalcaptain said:

Captain. It's is implied that Steve could lay him out whenever he wanted. Their fight was also kinda onesided

And its the new iman. How is Steve putting down a morals off Pete? And their fight wasnt one sided.

The new "IManWIthoutFearI" ? Dude you literally saw this profile on the same day commenting the same. Right after I deactivated my old account and you still couldn't figure out that this is me ?

Put 1 and 1 together

I wanted to start all over with a new account.

Oh it really is you? I couldn't be sure since the posting style appeared a little different.

Now that I know I'm not bothering with this thread anymore.

Probably because I was on my phone before my last 2 posts.
No problem.

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#50 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

@originalcaptain said:

@socajunkie: I will respond when I am back from work. Would be nice if you would also tag me in the other debate (TASM SpiderMan, Raimi Spider-Man Vs MCU Team) so we can continue this one as well.

  1. Don't bother, I'm not interested in this anymore
  2. I tagged your old account for that thread but I'm not interested in debating that either

Ok.