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#51 Posted by JSDoctor (1633 posts) - - Show Bio
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#52 Posted by Alavanka (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Rumlow get his suit from Civil War? If so, he stomps. He did better against Cap than Natasha did against Bucky, and in fact Rumlow manhandled Natasha. The suit makes him competitive with trained super-soldiers.

Otherwise, Ward edges out a hard fight.

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#54 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: Stop.

No.

Cap takes out 7 of SHIELD's finest Agents all in 8 seconds, he's also being restrained in a choke hold restricting his movement yet he doesn't get tagged once.

Which can be largely attributed to physical stats though it's an excellent display of skill.

In what is considered Ward's best feat, he gets tagged dozen upon dozens of times without and unlike Cap he wasn't restrained at all.

Strawman, I never argued that was his best feat, his best feats are against May. Ward's style doesn't lend itself well to fighting groups, unlike the other elites, when it comes to one on one performances however Ward wins by skilfully taking advantage of superior physicals to beat them relentlessly into the ground. Ward against groups usually takes a few hits but wins in the end, against opponents with much better fodder feats he emerges triumphant. Noticing a pattern here? Even season 2 Skye (Who was treated like a child by May) and Hunter have better fodder wrecking feats than Ward but Hunter scales laughably far below May and was given a challenge by one of Ward's fodder operatives solo.

I don't see why May or Bobbi is more skilled than Cap, nor have you provided any feats that say they are.

I have lol. May stomping three primitives who could stomp regular Shield fodder, snap clean through handcuffs and no sell ICERS while starting off in a disadvantaged position, making Skye look like a child at the time when Skye held her own against 5 Alisha Clones (Who stomp regular shield fodder, putting Skye on a level where she can probably take down about 5 Shield Agents), and scaling vastly over Hunter who casually stomped three Shield Strike Agents.

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#55 Posted by Alavanka (2587 posts) - - Show Bio

@alavanka: Made it clearer in the OP.

Ward probably takes this then, as Rumlow has limited feats with just hand to hand. I'll have to rewatch the Cap elevator fight to see if he did anything significant though.

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#56 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@alavanka: I did place some factors in Rumlow's favor to make the fight more even

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#57 Posted by melkorisbeatmod (126 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: the only way Rumlow has a chance is if he has his gauntlets

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#58 Posted by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: How was Steve's feat done mostly thru physicals - the only physical attribute that can be applied to that feat would be which the speed he did it with. The rest is combat awareness, co ordination and skill. If you want you can attribute oneshotting them to physicals as well. But Ward had physical advantages on May and Bobbi as well.

Steve didnt lose those physical stats in his scuffle with Rumlow anyways

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#60 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15895 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward is just better.

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#61 Posted by Paytience (4911 posts) - - Show Bio

@asphaltairborne: You could make the argument that the amount of coordination it takes is the result of super human awareness though. Reaction speeds and intelligence are directly tied to physically ability. Take football linemen and QB's for example. Their reactions, multi tasking, an doverall intelligence scores are off the charts as a result of having to operate really high speed machines (their bodies) in really high stress situations.

The inferrence could certainly be that Cap's ability to coordinate and multi task as well as he does is a direct result of his mind having to operate a superhuman machine...since physicals and reactions/multitasking scale linearly, and only one way. A person with high intelligence and faster processing doesn't necessarily have better physicals and reactions-But a person with a high degree of physical ability and/or quick reactions does have have faster processing and better multi tasking and hand/eye coordination than someone with a lower degree of physical ability.

So, you could argue that his feats are not the direct result of his purely physical abilities, but they almost certainly would not be possible without his physical upgrades.

There was a study done on college athletes that corroborated this a few years back.

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#62 Posted by rem (2674 posts) - - Show Bio

By feats- Ward without any trouble whatsoever

On paper- crossbones

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#64 Posted by DSTREET45 (5280 posts) - - Show Bio

Brock gets a combat knife, and Ward is unarmed. Assume that Brock is morals off, while Ward has his SHIELD morals and will only kill as a last resort.

With these stipulations, who wins?

EDIT: To clarify, both of them are in civilian clothes. No Crossbones gear.

Tough one but I'm gonna back Ward in this fight by a pretty slim margin. If I'm being honest this fight might drag out to be an extended, bloody slugfest, not unlike the S1 fight between Frank Castle and Billy Russo. It's not gonna be pretty but both fighters are aggressive and pragmatic fighters. If there's a moment where either would give either the advantage, neither of them would hesitate to seize that moment (yes even Ward's SHIELD persona).

Rumlow lacks a lot of feats compared to Ward but he is still a pretty impressive fighter. Rumlow was able to tag Cap twice with stun batons at the end of the elevator fight, had a clear upper hand against Falcon in a H2H bout despite Falcon getting the drop on him and later holds his own against Cap in CQC as Crossbones for a bit. In addition to being a SHIELD STRIKE agent, there's no doubting that Rumlow was an exceptionally skilled operative.

That being said, I think Ward has him outmatched in a direct head-to-head battle. Granted not by much, but enough to the point where I don't think Rumlow having a knife would make up the difference. Ward has gone a couple of rounds against some of SHIELD's finest agents in Melinda May and Bobbi Morse, both of who are honestly among of the best CQC fighters in the MCU, outright demolished Antione Triplet, another SHIELD specialist, in CQC, and has more impressive fodder busting feats than I'm willing to draw from at the moment. The fight that really seals Ward's victory in my mind is his final fight with Coulson. Sure Ward dies at the end but considering that Ward fought with his of his hands bound and had two fresh gunshot wounds on his shoulders and was still able to put up even a modicum of a resistance, let alone actually having the upperhand in the beginning, against a skilled fighter in Coulson (who had a cybernetic hand) speaks volumes on how his pain tolerance is enough to keep him in the fight. Hell he barely winces after getting shot the second time.

This fight is going to drag out and the longer it goes, the more likely Ward is going to win. It's more than possible that Ward could take a couple of knife wounds and still keep going given his pain tolerance and he's fast/skilled enough to avoid getting a fatal wound. Rumlow's best bet is to end the fight as quickly as possible but with Ward's skill I don't think it's going to happen for a majority.

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#65 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio
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#66 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how its an insult to compare Steve and Ward's skill just because he fought May and Bobbi. I certainly think that both of them are more skilled than him and that he only did so well against them due to his combination of physicals and great skill. That's what makes him a good fighter. He's very skilled and he can overpower most opponents and use his strength and skill to overwhelm them. This works well against fighters who are weaker than him. But when you actually look at his skill I don't see him being a peer to May and Bobbi. He can compete with them skill wise but would ultimately be outclassed if not for his physicals IMO.

Both May and Bobbi's best skill feats come from scaling to fodder scenes. May has fodderized 2 individuals who with scaling are both better than Hunter and she stomped S2 Skye who could fight(Though ultimately lose against)5 Alisha clones at once when each could beat standard SHIELD agents. Bobbi also easily beat agent 33 who was on the same level as S2 Skye. So both of them are relying on scaling to fodder feats for their best skill showings IMO. But if you actually look at Ward's best fodder fight scenes he consistently gets tagged in even his best fodder feats but powers his way through it. This to me kinda demonstrates the difference between Ward and May/Bobbi. Either of those two should be capable of going through large quantities of fodder without being tagged. Ward would go through large quantities of fodder but he would get tagged and use his combination of skill and physicals to get through fodder. That to me kinda demonstrates the difference. Ward is overall a great fighter, but its due to a combination of great physicality and great skill. May and Bobbi are mainly just skilled.

But TBH even if we assumed Ward was roughly equal to Bobbi/May in skill I don't see how it would be an insult to Ward's skill to compare it to Steve's. I don't see how its an insult to compare Steve's skill to May or Bobbi's's. I personally think May and Bobbi have better skill feats but its not some clear cut objective fact. All 3 have done things that the others has not skill wise. I feel like you are seriously underappreciating Steve's skill so I'm gonna get into his best feats and why I don't see how any of the SHIELD agents outclass him.

To start off I'll use Steve's feats from before he ever received training from SHIELD. You may not think his skill was impressive and while I'll admit his pure martial arts knowledge wasn't extraordinary and he didn't know a lot of the flashy moves that he does now. He did have the fundamentals of boxing as is shown in fights and stated in the script of Avengers and he also seemed to have learned how to use some kicks as well. He used the knowledge that he had of martial arts very well and there are a couple feats that I think are still notable for Steve even now.

Firstly he was skilled enough to fight 10 Hydra soldiers simultaneously.

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.The comic doesn't go as far as to visually show every move Steve makes and exactly how he deals with them but its clear to me that he is attacking the vast majority of them simultaneously as you can see via their reactions. As a skill feat fighting 10 people at once is impressive. These may have been very low quality fodder but the numbers make up for it and make it at least a decent skill showing.

Next we have Steve fighting and breaching the guard of Loki despite a massive range disadvantage.

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He dodged Loki's strikes and breached his guard while unarmed. This should suffice to prove that Steve is at least slightly more skilled than Loki. As for Loki's own skill he can easily fodderize multiple Dark Elves in rapid succession with just knives.

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And he has proven to match Thor's skill on multiple occasions. Thor being skilled enough to take out groups of SHIELD agents. And most impressively Thor can easily defeat 4 fully geared Asgardian warriors while fighting 3 at a time, unarmed and without being tagged a single time.

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When single warriors can cut through groups of fodder in rapid succession.

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So I think that I've established a good level for Steve before he ever received training from SHIELD. He was already an efficient fodder wrecker and he could outskill high level opponents with centuries worth of combat training/experience. I think its fair to say that current Steve dwarfs this level as its been confirmed repeatedly that he has trained extensively and improved with the Russo's going as far as saying,

“Cap is a very sharp individual and part of the serum accelerates his learning ability and if he’s going to be working for who he’s working for at the beginning of the movie, then we felt that he would be the absolute best at every style of fighting that he could be and that he would train himself to be the best to fit into a modern society.”

“Now, he’s trained. He’s trained exhaustively among some of the best people in the world.

So that gives you an idea as to how he improved. And his skill feats have improved as well.

To start off we have his elevator showings. NowI wish to dispel the idea that this is just physicality. Steve outmaneuvered and outskilled a large quantity of opponents without being tagged. Infact after the initial attack when they all dogpiled him and pulled him to the wall not a single one of them tagged him other than Rumlow. The first notable bit that seriously highlights his skill is in him stomping 6 STRIKE agents in 8 second in a tight cramped position without being tagged once.

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Or him fodderizing multiple STRIKE agents with essentially one arm tied behind his back.

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If you watch Steve's double kick closely you'll see that he also knocked Rumlow back down as well. So he took out 3 STRIKE agents and warded off a higher level opponent without being tagged once. And this all while having his right arm locked to a wall, limiting one of his limbs and his overall mobility as he can't move from that position.

Next we have a feat from the tie in comics again. Him dealing with 4 people throwing punches at him in the exact same moment.

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What makes this so insane is the fact that all of them are attacking at once. And not just attacking but actually throwing jabs from close up to Steve. I think people seriously underappreciated this feat. When you look at 95+% of fodder scenes, even if the fodder engage their opponent in a simultaneous fashion almost never will we actually see more than 2 of them throwing punches at the exact same moment. Now in some of these showings you could argue that the fighter just used better positioning to avoid having to deal with more than 1-2 attack sat a time. But in terms of sheer multi-tasking ability dealing with 4 attacks coming at you so quickly is impressive. I mean I, a random civilian can throw a punch within a fraction of a second. Think about what it would take to deal with 4 top mercenaries that are likely trained throwing punches at you at the exact same time and not just do that but than counterattack all of your opponents before they can do anything. That's what Steve did casually while remarking that it wasn't fair for his opponents mid fight.

I highly doubt you can show me a single instance of May, Bobbi or Ward dealing with this many attacks coming at the exact same time from such a close position. Now I don't say that to imply that it necessarily makes Steve better than all of them but I don't see how he can be so far below them that that its an insult to compare their skill; when he has done things we've never seen them do in terms of multi-tasking skill wise.

Next up we have what is probably his actual best skill feat which is his showing with T'Challa. I have anaylized their fight in detail multiple times along with their respective showings against Bucky and it seems clear to me that Steve came across looking better. Still unless you believe that T'Challa is his superior I'm not going to go into that again as I can respect the idea that they are equals and I imagine they're meant to be on the same level. But personally I definitely think Steve is at least marginally better.

As for T'Challa he outmaneuvered Killmonger. I know there is a statement that contradicts that idea but I don't know how to take that statement seriously in comparison to what we've seen T'Challa do to Erik.

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T'Challa dodges 5 knife strikes, blocks 2, seems to land multiple hits and goes borderline untagged, before blocking a final knife strike and reversing the knife to an advantageous position.

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T'Challa redirects the knife, blocks a knife strike, spins the knife into the air, grabs Erik into a hold that he uses to roll him and catches the knife to stab him.

By the time we get to the end of their final fight T'Challa is completely outskilling him.

And when you think about how skilled Erik is its extremely impressive. Erik managed to engage multiple Dora Milaje at the same time.

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Now Dora Milaje may not seem like it but are specifically noted to work better as a unit than individually. And individually they can take out 4 Outriders in seconds.

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And more impressively than that, they can engage as many as 2-3 standard Wakandan warriors and beat them. Credit to @webinyoureye11 for finding these and I'll copy paste part of his break down as he did a good job spotting things in the background.

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  1. When BP kicks W'Kabi, you can see towards the middle left a DM trading blows with 2 BT fodder, and when it cuts to BP you can see 1 DM taking on 3 BT fodder surrounding her to the right background behind BP
  2. On the right, you can see 1 DM solo'ing 2 BT fodder
  3. DM soloing 2 BT fodder on the right

Mind you standard Wakandan warriors could take on as many as 2 Outriders at once. And they where consistently killing Outriders.

Where stormbreaker is
Where stormbreaker is

So Dora are able to take down as many as 3 Wakandan warriors alone. Erik can take on 3-4 of these fighters at once. But not just standard Dora Milaje. Erik was engaging 2-3 of them in addition to Okoye. An individual who is so skilled she has been called the greatest warrior in Wakanda by both Nakia and the Visual Dictionary(IIRC). If you watch Erik's fight with the Dora he mostly goes untagged until the end but in pretty much all of the 2-3 instances where he was tagged it was either by Okoye or was a moment where he had focused on Okoye for slightly too long and the other Dora capitalized on it. And this makes sense as Okoye is a better fighter than the other Dora. But even with her being their Erik did manage to deal with her while fighting the others at points.

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The complexity involved in dealing with 3-4 fighters when all of them are exceptionally skilled and one of them a very high level fighter is kinda ridiculous. I think a solid case can be made that if you switched out Okoye for a standard Dora Erik would have beaten all of them. At the very least he should have done notably better and he already did great.

Now I know you might feel that Erik's better with swords than hand to hand but I don't think that should apply. Firstly I would imagine being in the military Erik's fighting ability would be focused more on hand to hand and knife combat than sword fighting. But additionally T'Challa and Erik have fought in sword fighting and T'Challa came across as better there IMO. T'Challa is one fighter with demonstrable proof that he's not a notably inferior fighter without his weapons than with them. That being in his fight with M'Baku.

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T'Challa actually lost his sword in that fight and had to fight an armed M'Baku H2H. He managed to outmaneuver M'Baku, land and land multiple strikes on him before M'Baku could get hold of him. Than once he got angry he stomped M'Baku in seconds. Now I'm not suggesting that T'Challa would consistently outperform himself without a weapon than with one as he clearly had a sort of rise up moment when he beat M'Baku. But I think this showing should stop any sort of an idea that his skill level is comparatively lower without weapons than with them(Like I've seen debated with Oliver for instance).

Now this post may have been long winded and perhaps I've gone over a bit much. You may think its a lot of scaling to both opponents and fodder but scaling is actually important. May for instance has a great hierarchy of scaling and its the reason I find her feats to be very impressive. But I feel like people seriously undercut Steve's skill as he has a great hierarchy of scaling as well. And his fodder feats are amount the largest numerical numbers you'll see in the MCU. People act like pretty much any high level fighter outclasses Steve skill wise. And I'd argue that he can give anyone other than Matt and Stick a good fight with equalized stats.

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#67 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio
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#68 Posted by Subline (7882 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see how its an insult to compare Steve and Ward's skill

Tbh, it is. Cause Ward just sucks.

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#69 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3871 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn it's always nice to see @amcu put his masterful debating skills on full display in posts such as these.

Excellent job man.

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#70 Edited by SupremeGeneration (11724 posts) - - Show Bio

Jesus Christ, who pissed off the best LA debater off this time?

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#71 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Solid post. I agree that May & Bobbi are above Steve in technical ability, but he is indeed highly skilled & his experience/talent show in combat.

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#72 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward

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#73 Edited by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Posted by ANTHP2000 (26970 posts) - - Show Bio

At this point, an angel gets their wings every time the terms "fodder feats" and "scaling" are used in these threads.

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#75 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Knowing me I'm liable never to respond to this but I'll try.

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#76 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Oh its fine man. I have the same problem. Sometimes I just don't feel like engaging in a long post like this.

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#77 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Re-read your post, and once again: good job showcasing Cap's skill. One thing I'd disagree on is the "dealing with 4 attackers at the same time from a close position" argument. The Agents definitely scale to being able to achieve that.

Before the scene cuts to Skye continuously kicking their butts, we see these clones start attacking her at exactly the same time from extremely close range.

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And these clones are better than the fodder Steve dealt with IMO, plus there was 1 more of them.

Plus, we know how May/Bobbi/Ward scale from this. They're ludicrously above Skye at this point in time.

(I do have Steve solidly above S2 Skye in skill due to a plethora of reasons, but just thought I'd point that out)

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#78 Posted by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio
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#79 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty nice feat for Rumlow, disposes of two agents in cqc with a knife really quickly & easily:

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#80 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister:

There's a few key differences.

1. Her opponents are a bit further than Steve's were. This may not seem like a huge difference but it gives her more of an opportunity to attack first and keep from having to deal with too many attacks coming in close proximity.

2. We don't actually see them all throwing punches at the same time. They're simply walking forward at the same time. Here's a slowed down gif.

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The only one I see actually looking like they're throwing a punch is the middle one. And we don't actually see her throw that punch.

3. We don't see how Skye deals with them attacking her. She might have evaded every hit they threw right the and she might have been tagged. We know that she managed to fight them effectively and eliminate 2 of them but we also know that a smaller group of them were able to tag her multiple times in the part of the fight that we see.

4. We don't know what level of difficulty Skye had in taking them on. Its probable that it was very high difficulty because we know she struggled later after dispatching a couple of them. Steve on the other hand was not taking his opponents seriously and just let them get into great positioning to attack him. He than let them all attack him and dealt with all of their attacks and counterattacked all of them simultaneously. He did this so casually that he literally remarked about how unfair it was to his opponents.

5. I was not necessarily saying that May/Bobbi cannot replicate this feat as I was saying that they have not replicated this feat.

Overall the reason I regard it as so impressive is because its one of the only instances were you see a high level fighter actually dealing with multiple attacks in close proximity at the exact same moment. Not in rapid succession, not jumping from person to person quickly but in the exact same instant. The level of operational ability required to do that is kinda crazy, let alone so casually. Its also a crazy impressive combat speed feat. And again I was not so much suggesting that the agents definitively could not do that as I was suggesting that they have not done anything quite like it before.

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#81 Posted by Kevd4wg (12750 posts) - - Show Bio
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#82 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: BTW my intent isn't to lowball Cap at all, I just like debating stuff like this.

  1. Sure, but the fodder were also solidly superior so I think that evens out.
  2. That's fair, but they clearly walked forward with the intent to attack. It's not reasonable that they stood around for any long while while the middle one took care of business.
  3. True, but when it cut back to her, she'd absolutely been kicking their asses for a while and wasn't taking hits 'til the very end. IMO the intent was clear, depicting a struggling fighter with a cut to a scene like that where she's manhandling them doesn't really make sense from a storytelling standpoint. I think the idea was that she was only pressured at the very end.
  4. I agree that Steve did this very casually, but I think I covered the difficulty part in point 3. It seems very unlikely that she knocked out two of them and handled three others while struggling immensely given how she's still going strong after the cut. It's clearly not the intention.
  5. That's fair, I just think they scale to doing so pretty convincingly.

And in 100% fairness, all 4 of those guys aren't attacking Cap at the same time.

The guy in the middle is pulled back while his comrades are attacking:

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#83 Edited by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Most of what your saying seems fair to me. Just a couple things to address.

True, but when it cut back to her, she'd absolutely been kicking their asses for a while and wasn't taking hits 'til the very end. IMO the intent was clear, depicting a struggling fighter with a cut to a scene like that where she's manhandling them doesn't really make sense from a storytelling standpoint. I think the idea was that she was only pressured at the very end.

I don't think the fact that she was winning at that moment proves that she hadn't been tagged before. Logically she should struggle more with 5 opponents if 3 of them are capable of overwhelming her later on in the fight. I'm not trying to lowball her but I don't think this implication is clear at all. She certainly would have had to fight them to a very respectable degree when they initially attacked her, but I don't know about her going untagged.

To me it makes less sense form a storytelling perspective for a fighter to go utterly untagged against 5 opponents while stomping them, dispatching 2 of them and than to lose to the remaining 3 of those opponents, unless somehow they were holding back(Which I don't think they were).

And in 100% fairness, all 4 of those guys aren't attacking Cap at the same time.

The guy in the middle is pulled back while his comrades are attacking:

He's not as close to Steve but it seemed as if he was trying to punch as well. Its not as clear as the others though, that's true.

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#84 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I definitely get where you're coming from. It's not 100% clear given the fact that it cut away.

And yeah that guy seems to have his hands raised boxing style, but only the other three guys actually threw at Steve. Regardless of that, it really is absurd as a combat speed feat when you break it down.

I think we're both in agreement that both skill showings are great (and that Steve >> S2 Skye anyways given his plethora of feats/scaling). I just figured I'd stir up some debate for the heck of it. I'm bored. Lol

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#85 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Yeah, I can definitely see why you made the comparison and it is a great showing for Skye.

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#86 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Agreed, it's a fantastic feat for Skye.

Another neat thing you pointed out was this set of accolades:

“Cap is a very sharp individual and part of the serum accelerates his learning ability and if he’s going to be working for who he’s working for at the beginning of the movie, then we felt that he would be the absolute best at every style of fighting that he could be and that he would train himself to be the best to fit into a modern society.”

“Now, he’s trained. He’s trained exhaustively among some of the best people in the world."

I definitely think people should place more value in these. It emphasizes Cap's intelligence, talent, and martial prowess all in one go. Another statement that exists for T'Challa (who Cap scales to) is this one:

"What techniques can be seen in Black Panther’s fighting style?

"Chadwick had a video of himself doing a Filipino martial arts knife-tapping exercise that popped up on the Internet. Just because of that video people started asking if we were doing Filipino martial arts. Of course we did, but we also did Muay Thai and Capoeira and others. He had to know them all. There are a lot of action movies that relegate to one certain style, and all of the fights look the same. Because of who T’Challa is, who the character is—a master of many—we couldn’t do that. We wanted to create a freedom in the fights that showcased how adaptable T’Challa is."

You should definitely bring this up in debates if you can. :)

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#87 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Yeah, those statements are great. The Russo's mentioned a decent number of things regarding Steve's skill. I wrote a post on it recently and I'll copy paste it.

They've said that he and Bucky are the two most well trained soldiers in the world(Link). And to just go over the other things they've said about him.

Directors Anthony and Joe Russo Talk CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER, Landing the Job, Core Relationships, Easter Eggs, and the Talented Cast

When discussing the action of WS in the above article they said the following

"Joe Russo: We do get creative with the shield! That was a big thing for us. The approach for us with Cap was this: In the 40s, it makes sense. He’s off the streets. He can fight like John Sullivan. It’s that style of big swings, the shield’s very pronounced, because he hasn’t necessarily been trained yet. Now that he’s in the future, he has a fast mind – it’s part of what the serum does to him – it’s a tactical mind, he learns things quickly. So for us, our approach was, he would absorb everything in that year, year and a half, all the training that he could possibly get, you know? And all the tools at his disposal would be affected by that training, so there are some interesting moments with the shield where he even uses just one handle on it. He uses it more in an Eastern style to fight people."

https://www.slashfilm.com/russo-brothers-interview-cap-2/

They've noted that he has knowledge of eastern techniques and can use his shield like a nunchuck.

Anthony: "We put that mandate to our stunt team and it was amazing. We were like, “Guys, figure out everything we can do with this shield. Think about Eastern techniques of fighting with, you know–”

Joe: "Or he’ll grab one strap which he does in the fight with Bucky later in the movie, but he actually is holding one strap and he uses it almost like a nunchuck, like three times in a row. And you’re like there’s so many ways you could use that shield as either a defensive or offensive weapon. Figure out what those are and let’s find ways to express them as a character in the movie through the shield."

https://geektyrant.com/news/exclusive-interview-with-captain-america-2-directors-the-suit-science-and-the-symbol

They've noted that he trained in all of the most current fighting techniques.

"AR: We put a massive amount of time and energy into that suit, because it was so important to us. I mean, look, for us it was Cap in this movie, we wanted him to start in a place of trying to embrace the modern world in this film, and not sort of being stuck in the past, even though he is, inevitably. So we wanted him to be training himself in the couple years he’s been alive in the modern world in all the most current fighting techniques, all the current strategies and military moves, et cetera.And we wanted him to be able to sort of craft, he wanted his suit to be an expression of the new soldier he was trying to be. So that suit is very much drawn upon the most current thinking and technology in terms of military war apparel. and that’s basically what that expression is, more or less."

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/captain_america/captain_america_the_winter_soldier/directors-explain-caps-stealth-outfit-and-more-in-captain-america-the-winter-soldier-a83977

Cap's new advanced fighting style also factored into the costume's design, says Anthony Russo. “It’s very much grounded in real military sort of functionality and purpose. He kicks a lot of ass in this film.” Dotting more on Cap's combat skills, Joe Russo reveals, “Cap is a very sharp individual and part of the serum accelerates his learning ability and if he’s going to be working for who he’s working for at the beginning of the movie, then we felt that he would be the absolute best at every style of fighting that he could be and that he would train himself to be the best to fit into a modern society.” Noting that it made sense in the first film that Cap had a sort of John Sullivan approach to fighting, Joe continues, “Now, he’s trained. He’s trained exhaustively among some of the best people in the world. So, you see all sorts of movement out of him and we did a lot of intensive research with our stunt team, a lot of pre-fight videos and things that we’re really experimenting with how he would move in this movie, how he would fight. I think people will be really shocked when they see his style of fighting.”

https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2014/05/fighting-patriot-thomas-robinson-harper-talks-captain-america-winter-soldier/

To add to all of that the stunt coordinator noted some of his fighting styles and that they mixed many styles to show that he's done his homework.

Each character has distinct fighting style in Captain America: The Winter Soldier with World War II super-soldier Steve Rogers (Chris Evans) utilizing a combination of Parkour, Brazilian Ju Jitzu, karate, and boxing when battling his enemies. “We mixed many styles to show that he had done his homework since he thawed out.”

I thought it was very interesting how they noted him as getting all the training he could get, that he had trained in all the most modern fighting styles and that that he was the absolute best at every style or fighting he could be. They even noted he had knowledge in eastern styles and could use the shield like a nunchuck.

To me it puts perspective on how the Russo's view him. I don't think they would envision anyone in the MCU as being much better than Steve. Now that doesn't triumph over feats and I don't think their opinion should necessarily matter when regarding AOS or Netflix fighters where they have no control but it is something to think about IMO.

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#88 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Agreed, the super-soldiers are very well credentialed.

Where do you think Ward & Rumlow are intended to rank within SHIELD/HYDRA? Skills wise.

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#89 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Agreed, the super-soldiers are very well credentialed.

Where do you think Ward & Rumlow are intended to rank within SHIELD/HYDRA? Skills wise.

In universe I think Ward is top tier but not quite on par with the highest level agents like Bobbi, May and Nat. He makes up for it though with his physicals.

Rumlow is harder to rank. He doesn't have that many feats but he does seem to be on a level at least close to Cap, he's been noted to have specialized in hand to hand combat and he was leader of STRIKE which is basically SHIELD's special forces.

The main reason its hard to rank him is because he hasn't had any feats or statements comparing him to anyone but Steve. And Steve doesn't have many statements comparing him to the other agents either. The main people who have made statements regarding Steve's skill are the Russo's. And they didn't really compare him to any of the other agents of shield. What they've said about his skill can essentially be boiled down to "He's trained a lot and is really good". Whereas the AOS has statements for their characters that relate more to the organization of SHIELD itself. Things like Ward having top grades in combat(IIRC)and such. But when they discuss movie characters its normally Natasha. I think they prefer to compare peak humans to peak humans rather than superhuman fighters like Steve.

It just makes it harder to say how anyone ranks comparatively. Rumlow is good enough to hang with Steve and I think the Russo's had the idea that Steve is a top tier fighter. But I don't know how it would be portrayed in the AOS TV show as they haven't really talked about Steve's skill at all IIRC.

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#90 Edited by The_Magister (13972 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I agree with almost all of that, that's a good breakdown.

I did mean skills in a general context though lol, like how good they are as combat operatives and such

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#91 Posted by deactivated-5cae5fbbc76cf (15 posts) - - Show Bio

Going over Rumlow's feats he seems to be faster in combat and tagged a better fighter than Ward in Steve with his taser batons.

Ill back him for a 7/10, morals and the knife are a huge advantage.

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#92 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: I agree with almost all of that, that's a good breakdown.

I did mean skills in a general context though lol, like how good they are as combat operatives and such

Oh, that's harder to rank. I think Ward is probably above Rumlow overall though.

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#93 Posted by americanspeeddemon (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward is superior in all aspects he wins with mild difficulty

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#94 Posted by JSDoctor (1633 posts) - - Show Bio

I know I'm seeing this a bit late, but that was an excellent post @amcu. Really raised my opinion of the super-soldiers' skill levels.

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#95 Posted by SuperArrow (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@deactivated-5c917f846ef0b said:

Going over Rumlow's feats he seems to be faster in combat and tagged a better fighter than Ward in Steve with his taser batons.

Ill back him for a 7/10, morals and the knife are a huge advantage.

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#96 Posted by Amcu (16674 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsdoctor said:

I know I'm seeing this a bit late, but that was an excellent post @amcu. Really raised my opinion of the super-soldiers' skill levels.

Thanks!