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#1 Edited by The_Magister (14288 posts) - - Show Bio
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Brock gets a combat knife, and Ward is unarmed. Assume that Brock is morals off, while Ward has his SHIELD morals and will only kill as a last resort.

With these stipulations, who wins?

EDIT: To clarify, both of them are in civilian clothes. No Crossbones gear.

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#3 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27824 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward. He can just disarm him and beat him down, no need to even kill him, plus he's highily trained in knife combat which is help.

Brock would need his batons to win here.

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#4 Posted by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward.

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#5 Posted by Amcu (16922 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward. Brock is higher than I used to rate him though. He's got some nice strength feats as well.

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#6 Posted by KingOfWakanda (2602 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Crossbones needs more than a knife. He might need his gauntlets here.

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#7 Posted by AngelJax (11756 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward

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#9 Posted by Daisy_Johnson (1247 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward beats the crap out of Brock. He's just higher ranked and more skilled in general imho. Nothing stops him from disarming him and evening out the grounds.

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#11 Posted by Supermanthor (20208 posts) - - Show Bio

Tie who eats yummy Pie

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#12 Posted by Subline (8418 posts) - - Show Bio

Brock Rumlow, he has an advantage due to the knife and he repeatedly tagged a more skilled opponent.

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#13 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward

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#15 Posted by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

Rumlow could win

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#16 Posted by Subline (8418 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Amcu (16922 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve is more skilled than Ward and Rumlow tagged him multiple times. I'm just kinda reluctant to say he's better than someone as good as Ward just based on that. If he manages to replicate his performance against Steve he should win though. And I'd argue he has better strength feats than Ward.

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#18 Posted by deactivated-5c96a079e1d43 (62 posts) - - Show Bio

Grant Ward stomps.

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#20 Edited by deactivated-5c96a079e1d43 (62 posts) - - Show Bio

@general_cosmic: Reasons? Physicality, skill?

Ward definitely has the physical advantage having taken hits from much stronger opponents, he also hits harder having ragdolled grown men with a punch, and although Rumlow does have an impressive feat of ragdolling Sam it's nothing Ward can't do. Holding Cap's arm is definitely an outlier for Rumlow.

As for efficiency and martial arts skill, all Rumlow has is beating Sam who isn't that skilled. And giving Cap a solid run, and he did kind of take Cap by surprise, so it's not that impressive. Ward also scales to Melinda May, who is a better fighter than even Cap if we take away his physical prowess.

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#23 Posted by melkorisbeatmod (305 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward is pretty skilled but Rumlow was put close to Cap for a reason so IMO Crossbones takes it for now

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#24 Posted by melkorisbeatmod (305 posts) - - Show Bio

@general_cosmic: as far as I know (its been a while since I saw winter soldier) I think Sam is ex-military so he has some skills not as much as some of the people Ward fought but I wouldn't put him that far down.

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#25 Posted by TheSuperor (6831 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward teaches him a lesson. Rumlow and Ward are fairly similar types of combatants, just that Ward is better all across the board.

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#26 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward beats the shit out of him without breaking a sweat. And comparing Ward and Steve in skill is an insult, Ward's much more skilled.

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#27 Posted by melkorisbeatmod (305 posts) - - Show Bio

just rewatched winter soldier and yea Ward wins but if we have comic crossbones Brock wins

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#28 Edited by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: @subline: Not necessarily sure why you two view Steve as more skilled. Ward's performances against May (He came off looking better in the first scuffle they had and was dominating the only prolonged sequence of hand to hand combat in which there were no environmental factors to consider in the second fight) and his near equality to Bobbi (He manages to drive her to a stalemate and the fight pretty much ends as soon as 33 steps in) are indicative of the disparity between the two in my opinion, given they both have much better hand to hand combat skill feats than Steve. Now while you may argue Ward had a physical advantage over both of them the fact that he lands a near equal amount of hits against Bobbi and actually outhits May, as well as the fact that his physicals, unlike Steve's are basically an extension of his skill (He uses technique to grapple with his opponents long enough to gain domination, and strength to retain it) and the fact that neither has had an issue with physically superior opponents (Even more so than Ward) in the past is enough for me to say that while Ward may not be more technically skilled than either of them, he's anything but just a brute, being more or less equal/slightly inferior to them in that regard.

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#29 Edited by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

Going over Rumlow's feats he seems to be faster in combat and tagged a better fighter than Ward in Steve with his taser batons.

Ill back him for a 7/10, morals and the knife are a huge advantage.

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#31 Posted by TheSuperor (6831 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesuperor: Wouldn't the knife and the morals difference change things? Do you think Brock's fast enough to get critical hits on Ward?

Notifications don't go through to me, this has been a problem for days now. Just stumbled upon this randomly.

Ward should be skilled enough to not get tagged by the knife, definitely not a critical hits. Maybe a slice or two at the wrist but that is nothing he can't handle. Ward is also an expert is disarming his opponents, so the knife won't be in the game for long.

After that it's a straight h2h beat down. Ward is more skilled in unarmed combat and arguably better stats.

I don't see any outcome where Rumlow walks out victorious. Had this been Ward with his regular morals, or lack of morals I should say, he would simply disarm him and kill him with his own knife.

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#32 Posted by melkorisbeatmod (305 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: for sure Ward is more skilled but Steve would win.

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#33 Posted by The_Magister (14288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@melkorisbeatmod: Yeah definitely, no peak human is taking Steve. He's a beast.

This tbh. I'm not arguing Ward can take Steve at all, just that he's much more skilled than the Captain.

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#36 Edited by The_Magister (14288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Subline (8418 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Amcu (16922 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: What do you consider to be May/Bobbi's best skill feat?

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#39 Posted by deactivated-5cc073360931e (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward

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#40 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

Id back Ward, but with the knife Rumolow makes it interesting

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#41 Posted by deactivated-5cae4704c27f5 (1660 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Can't help but feel I'm being led into a trap here... In any case though I'd say either May's performance against the Primitives or making season 2 Skye look like a second rate loser. Bobbi is difficult due to the fact that she primarily uses her batons in fights, Ward only engaged her in raw hand to hand though she came off looking better than May (Which fits with her being Ward's rough equal) and made short work of 33. All this being said I don't think Cap is unskilled, just to make myself clear, he's very obviously highly skilled and not a brute, however he always has a massive edge due to stats which make his skill feats rather unimpressive in my opinion, and I can very easily see any of the CB LA Peak humans replicating them if given his stats.

@subline: If it's your normal agent lowballing don't bother.

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#42 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Brock wins.

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#44 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27824 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward still bodies him...

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#46 Edited by Amcu (16922 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77:

Can't help but feel I'm being led into a trap here...

Well I was writing out a longer post last night but couldn't finish it. Kinda busy today so I'll probably post it tomorrow or later. But I thought I should probably make sure I'm discussing the right feats before I finish said post.

In any case though I'd say either May's performance against the Primitives or making season 2 Skye look like a second rate loser.

Is the Primitive feat that great? I agree with the Skye feat being one of May's best. I'd argue that and her fodderizing 2 people that were better than Hunter are her best skill feats. But I've never been that impressed with the Primitive feat. They were enhanced physically and I guess maybe they were a bit above standard fodder level skill wise but there were only 3 of them IIRC. You really think that's one of her better feats?

Bobbi is difficult due to the fact that she primarily uses her batons in fights, Ward only engaged her in raw hand to hand though she came off looking better than May (Which fits with her being Ward's rough equal) and made short work of 33. All this being said I don't think Cap is unskilled, just to make myself clear, he's very obviously highly skilled and not a brute, however he always has a massive edge due to stats which make his skill feats rather unimpressive in my opinion, and I can very easily see any of the CB LA Peak humans replicating them if given his stats.

I don't really know what to tell you regarding physicals. The physical attribute that matters the most when discussing skill feats is speed and we do know Steve is enhanced speed wise. So that matters but at the same time its almost impossible to say definitively how fast Steve is or what level of an advantage he has over opponents. Additionally I've seen people argue that multiple peak humans in the MCU have as good or better speed than super soldiers so its kinda iffy.

Its also true that almost all peak humans have a physical advantage over their opponents as well, with many of them one shotting them and outspeeding them. So TBH unless you have clear cut proof that most fighters aren't massively faster than their opponents almost every skill feat could be debunked as just being a speed feat. It makes it very difficult to actually argue skill wise. And its for this reason that I pretty much ignore Steve's speed when discussing his skill feats as I do with most fighters.

If you're arguing that Steve's skill feats are due to his physicality than that would apply to every fighter out there that isn't shown to have physicals on par or below their opponents. And then all we could really debate is choreography and statements regarding skill and not feats as feats would be too hard to quantify.

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#47 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Even with these conditions, I think that Ward wins (assuming pre-Crossbones).

Rumlow's claim to fame is his brief fight against Cap - something which he only achieved due to the electric batons. Tagging Cap twice before he could land a hit is a good skill feat, but given how brief the encounter was and the fact that Steve was at the end of a tough fight anyway I'm inclined to say that Ward could replicate it given the same gear & conditions. The only thing that Ward might have trouble doing from that scene is parrying Cap's hits, which is pretty great for an un-enhanced human.

His other main feats are outspeeding Sharon and stomping Sam. Both are good considering their on-paper accolades but are somewhat lacking in H2H feats. Considering that, those feats are nothing I don't see Ward replicating.

The other thing I'd consider for Rumlow is his H2H showing against Cap in Civil War. It's a good skill feat keeping up for that long, but he was definitely being outskilled in a way that I just don't think Ward would be with the same stats.

What makes this particular scenario a bit tougher for Ward is the fact that Rumlow is carrying a knife. But, as has already been mentioned further up, he's got a good track record using/disarming weapons so should be able to redirect the knife to hit non-critical areas (if he gets tagged) and disarm Rumlow. He'll go into the battle focussed on the knife first. Ward has a few feats (keeping up with May in particular) that I just don't see Rumlow coming close to at all. The skill gap between the two is great enough that I don't think Rumlow could stop Ward from dealing with the knife. And from there, it's game over for him.

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#48 Posted by Subline (8418 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: If it's your normal agent lowballing don't bother.

Stop.

Loading Video...

Cap takes out 7 of SHIELD's finest Agents all in 8 seconds, he's also being restrained in a choke hold restricting his movement yet he doesn't get tagged once.

In what is considered Ward's best feat, he gets tagged dozen upon dozens of times without and unlike Cap he wasn't restrained at all.

Ward's performances against May (He came off looking better in the first scuffle they had and was dominating the only prolonged sequence of hand to hand combat in which there were no environmental factors to consider in the second fight) and his near equality to Bobbi (He manages to drive her to a stalemate and the fight pretty much ends as soon as 33 steps in) are indicative of the disparity between the two in my opinion, given they both have much better hand to hand combat skill feats than Steve.

I don't see why May or Bobbi is more skilled than Cap, nor have you provided any feats that say they are.

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#49 Edited by The_Magister (14288 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: @amcu: Wanna keep my debating here to a minimum, but I thought I'd address points on both sides. BTW I'm not gonna post any analysis/arguments after this, since this is my own thread.

AMCU - You have to consider that May was surprise-attacked from behind and put in a hold at the beginning of the Primitives fight. She then proceeded to outmaneuver her way out of it, completely reverse the momentum of the fight, and overcome them without being touched once after that cheap shot. The Primitives were established as being solidly above SHIELD fodder with the way they dispatched them + Watchdogs were shown to train intensively even before transformation + they had statements about possessing combat skills and adrenaline-induced enhanced physicals. They were definitely above standard baseline fodder in skill, not just slightly - plus, taking on 3 opponents of this caliber while surrounded and going 100% untagged is nothing to scoff at.

This somewhat ties into JS77's point about someone having a physical advantage over opponents, and AMCU's point that it can be hard to differentiate skill & physicals - this is one of those rare instances when:

  1. A character is surrounded by fodder (3 of them, in this case)
  2. The combatant has absolutely zero physical edge over said fodder, making raw technical skill of paramount importance as opposed to taking on humans (and not only are the fodder physically superior, but they're also trained soldiers to boot)

I'd also put feats like keeping up with Sinara (Kasius' elite Kree warrior) with a busted leg up there, as well as her performances against Remorath (trained killers with superhuman damage soak/mobility) while still not back to peak performance.

May's also pretty much cut through a group of Russian special ops like cake without being tagged (though that's well within Cap's skill paygrade IMO) and amcu already pointed out two of her other feats. Worth noting that even if you disagree about one of those HYDRA agents being > Hunter, another one of them gave Coulson an absolute slobberknocker of a fight in a 1v1 scenario. Plus the implication that they're better than regular HYDRA.

JacenSolo77 - Cap's skill is pretty underrated. I'd place him on a high pedestal, though I often flip-flop as to where exactly he should be ranked among Netflix/AoS combatants. I don't think it's necessarily fair to dismiss a lot of his feats because he has a stats edge. For example, I'd argue that his elevator fight shows extreme skill with the way he takes down opponents one after another with his hand trapped to the edge of the elevator. Sure, he has a stats edge on everyone, but it still requires multi-tasking combative abilities on his end. He also has a feat against Spider-Man where he completely outmaneuvers the guy and kicks him into a metal beam despite Spidey's speed. Cap also has a good feat of taking on 2 Outriders at a time - while Outriders aren't skilled at all, they have a lot of ferociousness and strength behind them.

There's also some scaling to be done in Cap's favor with the Black Panther film in the mix, but that's more of a blurry line so I don't want to open up that can of worms.

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#50 Posted by The_Magister (14288 posts) - - Show Bio