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#51 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@theoneaboveyall: Favorable feats against scaleable and established opponents for Natasha?

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#52 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax Since Ward is not as skilled as May or Bobbi, do you think this is close?

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#53 Posted by theoneaboveyall (196 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@theoneaboveyall:

1) She never stomped Clint.

2) What favorable feats does Clint himself have against scaleable and established opponents? You can't make an argument without it circling back around, because Clint/Nat literally have zero properly scaleable feats.

What you're showing me is that you'd rather resort to deliberately antagonistic behavior than debate productively using logic/reasoning.

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#55 Edited by Paytience (2737 posts) - - Show Bio

@theoneaboveyall said:

@the_magister: stomped Clint. Thats enough. Debate over. Ta ta.

Widow never stomped him. It took pis for May to beat Ward...May who stomped Scarlotti who also stomped Clint. Any other questions, or are you going to continue to troll?

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#56 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Posted by Stahlflamme (4422 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Widow beat Clint Barton, seemed to have the upperhand on Crossbones in cqc at the beginning of Civil War, and fought Bucky twice if I remember correctly. That's as much as I remember regarding noteable opponents.

Ward really only fought May and Bobbi as far as really noteable opponents go. I guess there was the centipede soldiers, who like Widow with Bucky he got a bunch of ineffective hits in and Coulson, but that was not much of a fair fight.

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#58 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@stahlflamme: Here is the difference between Ward and Natasha. You can feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

  • Ward was consistently depicted as being an equal to May in all of their fights. He was beating her in their final fight until she pulled out a Nail Gun at the end. Natasha has no such showings of equality against such a skilled combatant.
  • Ward matched Bobbi when she had been tortured and he wasn't going all out (bc of context), so it balanced out. Bobbi is better than Nat, decisively.
  • The Centipede Soldiers have physicals far above those of Bucky or Cap, and Ward was visibly causing them pain with his strikes. Natasha didn't have the same success rate against the Winter Soldier.
  • Coulson is a top tier fighter who was able to immediately gain an advantage on Agent 33, and give the enhanced Calvin Zabo trouble. Ward still gave him hell with two bullet wounds and handcuffs on.
  • Ward easily dominated Triplett, a Level 6 combat agent who could fodderize individual HYDRA soldiers.

Widow's feats just don't stack up to Ward's, imo.

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#59 Edited by Paytience (2737 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister said:

@paytience: Ward beats Natasha, in your opinion?

I don't know. I think it depends on the situation. Put it this way, if she was sent to bring Ward in, I don't think that she could do it. In fact, locking them in a cage in nothing but fight shorts is about the only way I see this staying a fight in any conventional sense. Under most combat conditions, in most combat environments, I think it's more likely that Ward maneuvers Widow into a corner and kills her. I think that's the only clear end we have, unless someone else intervenes.

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#60 Posted by ThunderPrince (2996 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward in a close one.

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#61 Posted by tj849 (4303 posts) - - Show Bio

Natasha.

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#62 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience said:
@the_magister said:

@paytience: Ward beats Natasha, in your opinion?

I don't know. I think it depends on the situation. Put it this way, if she was sent to bring Ward in, I don't think that she could do it. In fact, locking them in a cage in nothing but fight shorts is about the only way I see this staying a fight in any conventional sense. Under most combat conditions, in most combat environments, I think it's more likely that Ward maneuvers Widow into a corner and kills her. I think that's the only clear end we have, unless someone else intervenes.

I think I MOSTLY agree. Even in a cage match scenario, though...she doesn't exactly have his assortment of feats. Even by raw statements, he is her equal at least.

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#63 Edited by Paytience (2737 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister said:

@stahlflamme: Here is the difference between Ward and Natasha. You can feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

  • Ward was consistently depicted as being an equal to May in all of their fights. He was beating her in their final fight until she pulled out a Nail Gun at the end. Natasha has no such showings of equality against such a skilled combatant.
  • Ward matched Bobbi when she had been tortured and he wasn't going all out (bc of context), so it balanced out. Bobbi is better than Nat, decisively.
  • The Centipede Soldiers have physicals far above those of Bucky or Cap, and Ward was visibly causing them pain with his strikes. Natasha didn't have the same success rate against the Winter Soldier.
  • Coulson is a top tier fighter who was able to immediately gain an advantage on Agent 33, and give the enhanced Calvin Zabo trouble. Ward still gave him hell with two bullet wounds and handcuffs on.
  • Ward easily dominated Triplett, a Level 6 combat agent who could fodderize individual HYDRA soldiers.

Widow's feats just don't stack up to Ward's, imo.

Well I generally agree with you, I just wanted to note that centipedes do not have superior stats to cap. At least Mike Peterson didn't, per his training with Shield. It was mentioned when they were doing the bulldozer push...Peterson asked if he beat Cap's score and the tester kind of laughed and said "nope".

The problem is that people tend to think of Widow as fighting different fodder for some reason. She isn't. They are fighting the same fodder, in fact you can argue that Ward is fighting the better fodder, as Coulson's team are the ones who are fighting the agents directly around the heads of Hydra, Widow is fighting mainly foot soldiers. It was coulson's team that took the remaining heads of Hydra...after they gave Strucker's location and the info on List to Maria Hill:

Sorry, I can't make clips right now:

Coulson: I'm guessing Hydra doesn't know that Loki's scepter was the weapon that killed me. But, I bet they know it can control minds.

Maria Hill: In their hands, that's catastrophic. Coulson, please tell me you know where it is.

Coulson: Sokovia. I'm pretty sure List is heading there right now.

...

...

...

Coulson: I've just sent you everything I found on Strucker's location.

...

Maria Hill: Last thing. Theta protocol--is it ready?

Coulson: Yes it is. Time to bring in the Avengers.

Season 2 Episode 19

"The Dirty Half-Dozen"

Coulson's team and their actions during the team up with Ward in this episode led DIRECTLY to the Avengers operations in Sokovia at the beginning of AoU; the death of the heads of Hydra; and the completion of theta protocol, which was the building of the helicarrier that saved the residents of Sokovia at the end of the movie.

This fodder:

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Is the EXACT same fodder that Daisy runs through in the first scene here:

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The baddies Widow puts down here:

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Are the same kind of baddies or LOWER, then one's that Ward stomps here:

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They both kept their fodder alive, the difference is Widow had prep, surprise, and gear...whereas Ward was under attack with no gear.

I know you and I are not debating, but I was just gonna point out that the issue is that a lot of people tend to treat Widow as if she and the Avengers exist in some far off higher tiered corner of the universe...or they think that the movies automatically trump the shows...which, we both know couldn't be further from what is being established. Iunno.

Just figured it was good place to draw those comparisons so people could just look with the context and not just the clips.

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#64 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience: Great comparisons. I don't get why people are so quick to say Widow beats the top tier AoS agents. The notion that the film agents operate on a higher tier is flat out wrong.

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#65 Posted by AngelJax (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Yes, I think this is as even as it gets. Widow is implied to be just as good as Ward, if not better. Ward on the other hand has the raw accumulation of feats. Both are skilled, tough, and hard to put down. I could see this fight going to either side easily.

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#66 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax: I agree it would be a fantastic fight, I definitely see Ward taking it though. Widow needs to fight someone established in hand to hand/cqc. By implication though, they are very much peers and equals. In-universe, I see Widow taking a slim majority. But by feats, she'd be hard pressed to match him.

When two characters are so close in implication, feats are the differentiators.

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#67 Edited by deactivated-5a220d15cc740 (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister said:

@the_fallen_lord: Tbh I am rethinking what I said about Widow being outright better. She needs good, directly scaleable feats against a well-established cqc fighter to give her that edge over Ward, imo.

Until then, he should still win. Fodder wrecking feats just aren't enough. I think she is definitely good enough to give him a brilliant fight, though. Implication matters almost as much as feats.

Nah, I still think she's faster / more agile and slightly more skilled whereas Ward has better durability (arguable) / pain tolerance and striking power. Fodder wrecking feats are just as important as feats against established opponents because they are the ones which make a fighter well-established in the first place. Anyway, Nat does have feats against Clint who was able to get T'Challa in a headlock. I know we didn't get to see how he did it, but it's still pretty darn impressive. And both times Nat fought Clint, she was unarmed whereas Clint was armed with his bow and she beat him. That being said, I never said that she has any edge over Ward.

Natasha is clearly the better fighter here but Ward's durability and pain tolerance more than make up for whatever skill disadvantage he's at. IIRC, Ward has stalemated May twice and I don't see why he can't replicate the same against Nat. Honestly, I'm not sure who'd win so I'm calling a stalemate.

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#68 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

Fodder wrecking feats are just as important as feats against established opponents because they are the ones which make a fighter well-established in the first place.

Wow, this sentence has given me a whole new perspective on fodder feats. It might seem obvious, but I never really thought about it like that.

All that being said, let's ignore Battle Forum logic for a second. Based on writing and statements, I feel like this would be almost dead even. What do you think, from that standpoint?

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#69 Posted by AngelJax (4167 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Posted by ANTHP2000 (10323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#71 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: @angeljax: Lol I wasn't being sarcastic, I am just rethinking the whole stance that fodder feats are useless. Because without them, how do we scale anyone from...well, anything? Not sarcastic at all, I think @the_fallen_lord made a good point there.

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#72 Posted by ANTHP2000 (10323 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: I personally think statements and choreography (which in a way does come from fodder fights mostly, so I prolly agree), are the most important aspects when ranking established fighters, until we see their respectable performance against each other, as long as they have one.

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#73 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: Ok I will say this - Widow has FANTASTIC choreography. I agree that it is super important.

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#74 Posted by AngelJax (4167 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: Oh, I'm not saying you aren't genuine. But your wording came off as sarcastic. "Wow, this sentence has given me a whole new perspective on fodder feats."

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#75 Edited by ANTHP2000 (10323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#76 Posted by Arcus1 (24626 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: @angeljax: Lol I wasn't being sarcastic, I am just rethinking the whole stance that fodder feats are useless. Because without them, how do we scale anyone from...well, anything? Not sarcastic at all, I think @the_fallen_lord made a good point there.

Yeah, fodder feats definitely aren't useless. If anything they're the most useful baseline measurement for comparing fighters who otherwise don't interact

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#77 Posted by theoneaboveyall (196 posts) - - Show Bio

Still Natasha

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#78 Posted by killers10333 (2909 posts) - - Show Bio

In universe, widow comfortably

By feats, widow 9/10, but struggles each time

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#79 Edited by Paytience (2737 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister said:

@anthp2000: Ok I will say this - Widow has FANTASTIC choreography. I agree that it is super important.

It's amazing. The opening fight from civil war...that get up and blitz with the bike sliding taser disc...takes out two then get's the running teep on the door...all that, that whole segment. And then in the market she has this disarm weave to a high block and then fires a series of just short rights from like a karate horse stance or some kind weird kung fu stance...and she has this little look back over her shoulder.

I dunno...I just really like the way they have Widow move. Even just the free running that she does. Compared to Daredevil for example, it's just so much more seamless. She is so explosively fluid in the movies. It's dope.

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#80 Posted by Paytience (2737 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@the_magister said:

@anthp2000: @angeljax: Lol I wasn't being sarcastic, I am just rethinking the whole stance that fodder feats are useless. Because without them, how do we scale anyone from...well, anything? Not sarcastic at all, I think @the_fallen_lord made a good point there.

Yeah, fodder feats definitely aren't useless. If anything they're the most useful baseline measurement for comparing fighters who otherwise don't interact

Definitely. This is why I think it's important to establish and evaluate those fodder within universe.

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#81 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@killers10333: Ward arguably has better statements than Widow does, or atleast equal. She isn't "comfortably" beating him in-universe. It'd be close.

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#82 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

It's amazing. The opening fight from civil war...that get up and blitz with the bike sliding taser disc...takes out two then get's the running teep on the door...all that, that whole segment. And then in the market she has this disarm weave to a high block and then fires a series of just short rights from like a karate horse stance or some kind weird kung fu stance...and she has this little look back over her shoulder.

I dunno...I just really like the way they have Widow move. Even just the free running that she does. Compared to Daredevil for example, it's just so much more seamless. She is so explosively fluid in the movies. It's dope.

Yeeees. She is so agile and fluid, her choreography is outstanding.

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#83 Edited by RBT (16644 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally a fight Ward can win. At least h2h.

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#84 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Don't underestimate Widow. I think he'd win due to superior physicals, but she can more than give him broken bones or a concussion if he slips up.

Also, both of them beat Oliver.

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#85 Posted by BladeOfFury (2714 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Don't underestimate Widow. I think he'd win due to superior physicals, but she can more than give him broken bones or a concussion if he slips up.

Also, both of them beat Oliver.

Bait.

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#86 Posted by killers10333 (2909 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: in universe its implied widow is the best in shield, and that may is second...this is including ward

At least if memory serves correctly

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#87 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@killers10333: May has more black belts than Romanoff. I can link you the video if you want.

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#88 Posted by killers10333 (2909 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_magister: black belts doesnt mean more skill

For example, a 2nd dan black belt in karate and taekwondo might not be as good as someone who is a 5th dan in just karate or just taekwondo

If there was a list of which belts, the statement might mean more, but even then, natasha was a russian agent before, no reason she obtained belts as opposed to just training

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#89 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@killers10333: That's fair, but I don't think Widow is outright superior to Ward in-universe. Ward has been referred to as one of the finest killers alive on more than one occasion.

But I'm glad to see others thinking about this from an in-universe scaling perspective, that is rare on the Vine lol

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#90 Posted by DSTREET45 (3849 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward

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#91 Posted by deactivated-5a13797b4eb42 (176 posts) - - Show Bio

Grant has better feats against non-fodder.

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#92 Posted by RBT (16644 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury:

Don't underestimate Widow. I think he'd win due to superior physicals, but she can more than give him broken bones or a concussion if he slips up.

Doubt she can give broken bones to a guy who took a couple hits from Centipede soldiers. Ward's too much of a tank for Nat.

Also, both of them beat Oliver.

Does not even warrant a proper reply.

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#93 Edited by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Tanking hits from Centipede Soldiers doesn't mean normal humans have no chance of harming him. Look at his fights with May and Bobbi. He was not in good shape after either of those.

Nat can give him bruises/injuries, I'm sure.

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#94 Posted by RBT (16644 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Tanking hits from Centipede Soldiers doesn't mean normal humans have no chance of harming him. Look at his fights with May and Bobbi. He was not in good shape after either ofthose.

Nat can give him bruises/injuries, I'm sure.

Nothing significant though. And Ward was winning his encounter against May despite her being more skilled. Until she put three nails in his leg.

What I meant was, Nat is not knocking Ward out. The best she can hope for is choking him out, but Ward is too strong and skilled for that to happen.

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#95 Posted by The_Magister (3196 posts) - - Show Bio
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#96 Posted by BladeOfFury (2714 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:
@the_magister said:

@rbt: Tanking hits from Centipede Soldiers doesn't mean normal humans have no chance of harming him. Look at his fights with May and Bobbi. He was not in good shape after either ofthose.

Nat can give him bruises/injuries, I'm sure.

Nothing significant though. And Ward was winning his encounter against May despite her being more skilled. Until she put three nails in his leg.

What I meant was, Nat is not knocking Ward out. The best she can hope for is choking him out, but Ward is too strong and skilled for that to happen.

May won the fight with Ward. Many say that she relied on the nail gun, but Ward also used a woodplank, wire, and saws. Ward wins anyway though.

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#97 Posted by ANTHP2000 (10323 posts) - - Show Bio

@killers10333: @the_magister: Personally, I don't think they'd take the time to directly compare black belts to Widow if it didn't mean superior martial skill.

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#98 Posted by killers10333 (2909 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: im not sure, i took it as she looks better on paper. By feats, and i mean in universe, widow is better conaidering shes a higher position and more well regarded

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#99 Posted by ANTHP2000 (10323 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: im not sure, i took it as she looks better on paper. By feats, and i mean in universe, widow is better conaidering shes a higher position and more well regarded

That doesn't translate directly to combat, let alone a category of it, martial arts.

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#100 Posted by Helloman (9045 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Widow wins both rounds.