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#1 Posted by deactivated-5c15205dbdcac (503 posts) - - Show Bio
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  • Strictly h2h combat (Radom encounter/Morals off)
  • Natasha has twin batons/Talia has her sword
  • Standard gear for both (25 Feet apart)

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#2 Posted by ANTHP2000 (23126 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow reks every round.

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#3 Posted by BreakOfDawn (757 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Nat stomps.

R2: Widow still wins in a good fight.

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#4 Posted by AngelJax (11079 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow stomps

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#5 Posted by The_Magister (12891 posts) - - Show Bio

Natasha for sure.

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#7 Posted by BreakOfDawn (757 posts) - - Show Bio

@fbatmanimgawd: The only thing thats sure around here is that everyone here wishes your parents could afford abortions.

So many sweet, charming people in these live action threads.

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#11 Posted by TonyMartial (7131 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually I change my mind

R1- Widow

R2 - Talia

R3- Widow

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#12 Posted by The_Red_Devil (3479 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow all rounds.

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#13 Posted by bump1010 (979 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow stomps.

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#14 Posted by RBT (25874 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia is definitely more skilled after last episode, but she doesn't really have stats showing to take on someone as established as Nat. She loses R1.

Wins R2 for sure.

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#15 Posted by bump1010 (979 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Talia is definitely more skilled after last episode, but she doesn't really have stats showing to take on someone as established as Nat. She loses R1.

Wins R2 for sure.

What makes you say she was more skilled? She didn't do anything Natasha couldn't do.

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#16 Posted by RBT (25874 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:
@rbt said:

Talia is definitely more skilled after last episode, but she doesn't really have stats showing to take on someone as established as Nat. She loses R1.

Wins R2 for sure.

What makes you say she was more skilled? She didn't do anything Natasha couldn't do.

I don't see Nat fighting half a dozen people with riot shield in a tight hallway, take them down, and not get tagged once.

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#17 Posted by bump1010 (979 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: I don't really view Talia's feat as much better than this

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We could discuss semantics like how the above clip I posted isn't a tight hallway, or how Natasha used her widow bite on a couple of guys. Or how Talia used batons and had backup from Oliver during the hallway fight. But I don't think these are huge details. Natasha's never struggled with fodder before and I don't think the circumstances of Talia's feat are that drastic.

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#18 Posted by RBT (25874 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010: Semantics? Those guys were coming one after another at her unlike Talia, who had no room to work with and had to deal with more than one at the same time. How is that supposed to be similar to what Talia did?

But I don't think these are huge details.

Of course, this is a huge detail. You are taking away two of the most impressive part about Talia's feat and saying its still the same. As for Oliver giving backup, I'll have to rewatch the fight to see how many he took down, but Talia was clearly doing most of the work there. She was in front and was taking on them first, except for a couple of them who ran to Ollie to get their asses kicked.

Natasha's never struggled with fodder before and I don't think the circumstances of Talia's feat are that drastic.

That's a weird logic. Nat has also never been in a situation like Talia has. Taking on half a dozen guys with riot shields who can pretty much eat your hits in a very tight hallway is drastic for Nat going by feats.

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#19 Posted by bump1010 (979 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

Semantics? Those guys were coming one after another at her unlike Talia, who had no room to work with and had to deal with more than one at the same time. How is that supposed to be similar to what Talia did?

So were Talia's people. At no point is Talia swarmed by more than 2 guys. Which isn't different than Natasha's feat. At no point was Talia swarmed.

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Of course, this is a huge detail. You are taking away two of the most impressive part about Talia's feat and saying its still the same.

What have I taken away from Talia's feat?

As for Oliver giving backup, I'll have to rewatch the fight to see how many he took down, but Talia was clearly doing most of the work there. She was in front and was taking on them first, except for a couple of them who ran to Ollie to get their asses kicked.

Honestly its kind of hard to count how many each took down during the feat because the scene jumps around a lot. Also we see one guy Talia knocks down gets right back up (0:08-0:15) so we don't know really know how many guys Talia took down for sure. Its possible there were others she knocked down who got up for Oliver to knock them out. It looks like it happened at least 2 more times to me.

But its really hard to say how many she hit and stood down because of the way the scene is shot. My main point is she had some one who is much more capable than her covering her back side (literally).

That's a weird logic. Nat has also never been in a situation like Talia has. Taking on half a dozen guys with riot shields who can pretty much eat your hits in a very tight hallway is drastic for Nat going by feats.

Honestly I think your exaggerating the difficulty of the showing. Natasha's taken down people in body armor before like during the civil war opening. They didn't have riot shields but only the 2 guys who were standing in front of the line up had riot shields in the above clip and Oliver was the one who took those down. The hallway is a tight space but there is room to move horizontally. So while the space is limited its not the same as being boxed in like cap was during the elevator fight or Rama's cubicle fight in the Raid, if that is what your implying.

I mean its an OK feat. But I don't think its drastically more difficult than Natasha's feats.

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#20 Posted by RBT (25874 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010:

So were Talia's people. At no point is Talia swarmed by more than 2 guys. Which isn't different than Natasha's feat. At no point was Talia swarmed.

Taking two at a time is better than taking one at a time as Nat did. I never said Talia took on half a dozen at the same time(as in Nyssa/ninjas fashion, I mean). But she was taking on more than one of them at the same time, unlike Nat who literally never had to so much as look at another person which she was fighting one.

What have I taken away from Talia's feat?

  • Nat had fewer people to fight in h2h.
  • She was in a completely open area as opposed to a hallway where its much much harder to remain untagged.
  • Nat took on them one after another. Talia had to deal with 2 at the same time almost the entire fight. At one point, you can even argue she took on 3 at the same time(in the same time frame you pointed out.) Talia takes one down and two other swing at her. The guy she has taken down gets up and runs at Oliver.
  • The riot shields.

Ignoring the fact that you think Nat should be able to replicate Talia's feat, is there anything feat wise Nat has done that would imply that? Honestly, I don't think Nat would die in that situation either, with all her gadgets and stuff, but going strictly by feats, is there something that would imply Nat would certainly replicate that?

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#21 Posted by bump1010 (979 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Taking two at a time is better than taking one at a time as Nat did. I never said Talia took on half a dozen at the same time(as in Nyssa/ninjas fashion, I mean). But she was taking on more than one of them at the same time, unlike Nat who literally never had to so much as look at another person which she was fighting one.

The only time she took on 2 guys at once in that jail fight was in the gif below which is the exact same maneuver Natasha displayed in civil war.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Nat had fewer people to fight in h2h.

She did?

She was in a completely open area as opposed to a hallway where its much much harder to remain untagged.

I acknowledged and addressed this.

Nat took on them one after another. Talia had to deal with 2 at the same time almost the entire fight.

This is untrue. Talia used 1 maneuver where she took out 2 guys at once. Other than that the security guards came at her one at a time.

At one point, you can even argue she took on 3 at the same time(in the same time frame you pointed out.) Talia takes one down and two other swing at her. The guy she has taken down gets up and runs at Oliver.

Those guys were still coming at her one at a time. They did not fight in a coordinated formation. At no point was she blocking hits from two attackers at once like what Oliver and IP man do below:

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The riot shields.

Again only the guys at front had those and Ollie took them down.

Ignoring the fact that you think Nat should be able to replicate Talia's feat, is there anything feat wise Nat has done that would imply that? Honestly, I don't think Nat would die in that situation either, with all her gadgets and stuff, but going strictly by feats, is there something that would imply Nat would certainly replicate that?

Again its not really that different than what Natasha has done already. At best its a slightly more difficult scenario but considering Natasha has accomplished her fodder feats with ease, I don't see why she couldn't do what Talia did.

But more importantly Natasha has faced fighters of note and has a decent record. Talia has been wrecked by everyone she went up against up. Natasha is 2-0 against hawkeye, who may not have much but at least was good enough to get Black Panther in a hold who is super human. She also held her own with captain america in a deleted scene, and managed to disarm cap of his shield and land a hit on him.

Even if Talia's fodder fighting feat were slightly better (and the more I analyze the scene the less impressive the scene is) it wouldn't be enough to beat Natasha, when Talia has no impressive showings against established characters. She's fought Nyssa and Oliver and they both wrecked her (and before anyone brings up the second fight Talia and Oliver had that was staged so they could get into the blue room, I don't count that as a fight).

The one true fight they had he legit wrecked her in 7 seconds (fight starts at 0:06 and ends at 0:13)....After he had literally just woke up from his sleep.

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Natasha lasted longer against captain america and accomplished more....Despite caps super human stats:

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Even ignoring the cap fight I still think beating hawkeye puts Natasha over Talia....Because at least that's something against an established fighter. Hell Natasha lasting 10 seconds against Proxima Midnight after Okoye went down, is enough to make me think she is better than Talia....

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#22 Posted by RBT (25874 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010:

The only time she took on 2 guys at once in that jail fight was in the gif below which is the exact same maneuver Natasha displayed in civil war.

That's...suspiciously similar.

I acknowledged and addressed this.

You also discarded it saying its not a significant difference. Which is where I disagree.

Those guys were still coming at her one at a time. They did not fight in a coordinated formation. At no point was she blocking hits from two attackers at once like what Oliver and IP man do below:

It happened at the very beginning. She was taking one guy down while another swung and she dodged it. Then again when the scene cut from her to Oliver.

Again only the guys at front had those and Ollie took them down.

Yeah, I didn't notice that.

Again its not really that different than what Natasha has done already.

Its small differences that stack up. Like Talia taking on more people in lesser time. In a very closed place. And taking on more than 1 at the same time.

At best its a slightly more difficult scenario but considering Natasha has accomplished her fodder feats with ease, I don't see why she couldn't do what Talia did.

So did Talia. Both of them accomplished their fodder feats with ease, only Talia's feat was harder to achieve. That is a clear distinction, IMO.

As for their performances against established characters, that hardly works against Talia considering Nat would lose to the characters Talia did as well. Nyssa would beat her, if not stomp her in a sword vs baton fight and Oliver would fodderize her worse than he did Talia. Just because Nat has beaten an established character(Clint) and Talia hasn't, does not necessarily put Nat over Talia. They haven't fought the same combatants. Talia has gone against better combatants than Nat has.

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#23 Edited by Greysentinel365 (5414 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at using Nats (non-canon) fight with Cap to show her in a positive light.

1. They show in a dedicated shot that Cap was holding back by the way he eyes her. He doesn't even throw a strike.

2. The only way she gets anything done is with gear. Both as a distraction and boosting her striking.

3. In their subsequent engagement, Cap easily outskills her, predicting and catching her blows, ragdolling her and being at ease enough to pause and ask if she has gear before nonchalantly throwing her off the edge instead of snapping her neck.

Nat does win here quite easily. But not because of her performance against Cap or any other enhanced. Nat is a fodder wrecker. The only way she lasts longer than 5 seconds against an enhanced in a 1v1 is if she has gear or backup.

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#24 Posted by TheSuperor (5774 posts) - - Show Bio

Nat for rounds 1 and 3, Talia for round 2.

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#25 Posted by bump1010 (979 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

You also discarded it saying its not a significant difference. Which is where I disagree.

Not much to say here. I explained why.

It happened at the very beginning. She was taking one guy down while another swung and she dodged it. Then again when the scene cut from her to Oliver.

I mean I don't think this is outside what black widow can do. It looks to me like she took down the first guy and transitioned to the next. I'd have to rewatch the fight (I'm in class right now) but even going by your version I don't think that is outside of Widow's capability.

Its small differences that stack up. Like Talia taking on more people in lesser time. In a very closed place. And taking on more than 1 at the same time.

I'm not sure if Talia taking them down in less time means anything, Talia used batons during the fight. And again she was able to transition to the next person instead of making her guys stay down because Oliver was there. Plus Nataha took them down as quickly as they revealed themselves.

So did Talia. Both of them accomplished their fodder feats with ease, only Talia's feat was harder to achieve. That is a clear distinction, IMO.

I mean neither of there fodder fights are the ceiling of there abilities.

As for their performances against established characters, that hardly works against Talia considering Nat would lose to the characters Talia did as well.

I agree but my major issue is Talia didn't just lose but she got wrecked. I think its fair to say Natasha can fight Oliver longer than 10 seconds.

Nyssa would beat her, if not stomp her in a sword vs baton fight and Oliver would fodderize her worse than he did Talia.

Nyssa would definitely win but not sure I would call it a stomp. How quickly do you think Oliver would beat Widow? I don't see how she can really do worst unless you think Oliver basically one shots with one punch.

Just because Nat has beaten an established character(Clint) and Talia hasn't, does not necessarily put Nat over Talia. They haven't fought the same combatants. Talia has gone against better combatants than Nat has.

Beating hawkeye isn't much but its something. Talia has nothing in her corner. Maybe Talia will get feats later in the season but for now I can't really give her a win over someone like Natasha. Natasha doesn't set a high bar for feats but its still not something Talia can jump over.

Lol at using Nats (non-canon) fight with Cap to show her in a positive light.

1. They show in a dedicated shot that Cap was holding back by the way he eyes her. He doesn't even throw a strike.

I don't interpret that as cap holding back but more so a look of regret for throwing Natasha off the building. As far as it being non-canon IIRC it was cut because the Russos didn't have time to shoot the scene. That was from the story board.


Nat does win here quite easily. But not because of her performance against Cap or any other enhanced. Nat is a fodder wrecker. The only way she lasts longer than 5 seconds against an enhanced in a 1v1 is if she has gear or backup.

She did display some interesting acrobatic moves and managed to disarm cap. I'm not suggesting she is a peer to cap, but when you compare that showing to Talia's performance against Oliver....its better.

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#26 Posted by phoenixdiamond616 (1493 posts) - - Show Bio

R1- Still Nat, but Talia makes her work for it... are we just gonna ignore the fact that Talia, against security guards, did some of the same movements Natasha did in her overhyped feat against Crossbones men?

R2- Nat due to superior gear (Nat's batons in particular have electroshocking stuff, who might lead her to the victory)...

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#27 Posted by pastepotpete1 (3187 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia looks really cauccasian looking in that picture