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#51 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@nickzambuto: I don't remember any of his first shots being on target against BP, which is consistent with him never firing a shot at anyone unless it was meant to be a distraction or something like flak arrows to slow down flyers. He was being pretty casual with BP, even in the way he was chatting with him. I can't see Hawkeye in character attempting to shoot an arrow at someone he doesn't know anything about and that he doesn't want to kill or even hurt. That's just not Hawkeye, and I don't think it's my personal interpretation, I think that's just him as a character. He doesn't seem the type to try to kill an ally of one of his best friends, regardless if they are having a fight that is not meant to be to the death for either side, or even one to leave anyone with any real injuries.

In that case all we can do is just wait for the scene to pop up online in order to confirm whether any of the arrows were on target or not.

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#52 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: That seems to make too much sense. I'm pretty sure we can stretch a pointless argument out over several pages when neither can confirm or deny each other. That's the CV way.

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#53 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@nickzambuto: That seems to make too much sense. I'm pretty sure we can stretch a pointless argument out over several pages when neither can confirm or deny each other. That's the CV way.

YoU'rE juSt BiAsEd nyehhhh.

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#54 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio
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#55 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (15924 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even a debate Batman wins. He beat Suicide Squad, Bane (who can toss cars with ease), Killer Croc, Deathstroke, Ra's Al Ghul, Grundy. Dude is untouchable.

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#56 Posted by Archangel01 (1943 posts) - - Show Bio

mcu panther is too weak for batman who can beat 20 tonners like Bane

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#57 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (9253 posts) - - Show Bio

BP.

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#58 Edited by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

This is ridiculous. This is obviously an MCU character against someone else, so at least expect a lot of overrating, and there's obviously going to be a lot of feat neglecting when it comes to the MCU character's opponent.

Batman regularly blitzes multiple opponents, defeats multi-tonners, defeats highly skilled assassins, endures throigh attacks stronger than Black Panther's, performs multi-ton feats, but sure, Black Panther overpowered da grate and almighti Bucki Barns. Smh

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#59 Posted by MasterKungFu (20773 posts) - - Show Bio

when will people stop equating batman as just "human"?

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#60 Posted by DarkRaiden (15466 posts) - - Show Bio

BP still

- 55 wins and counting. 3 tournaments.

http://www.warwithwords.com

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#61 Posted by TheSilentRipper (2530 posts) - - Show Bio

when will people stop equating batman as just "human"?

just my exact thoughts

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#62 Posted by one_man (68 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

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#63 Posted by jayc1324 (26422 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has way more feats so I'll have to go with him. BP can run faster and is more agile but that's it. Batman should have the rest of the advantages, even durability and combat speed. His gadgets and intelligence just clinches the victory for him.

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#64 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3073 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther. He tanked machine gun fire from a helicopter without even flinching, Batman can't put him down. Not to mention that Panther has better stats.

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#65 Posted by Mr___death (273 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman destroy him with his batmobil

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#66 Posted by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: @nickzambuto:I know this is an old conversation but in regards to the widow bite, the first one widow shot she caught T'challa by surprise and she was probably able to repeat because his muscles were seizing from the electricity. It did look like he could only walk slowly while being electrocuted.

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#67 Edited by KrleAvenger (26352 posts) - - Show Bio

Panther is equal to or stronger then Cap while Batman needs 100 punched to take out a Random criminal.

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#68 Posted by Col_FacePuncher (281 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@tparks: @nickzambuto:I know this is an old conversation but in regards to the widow bite, the first one widow shot she caught T'challa by surprise and she was probably able to repeat because his muscles were seizing from the electricity. It did look like he could only walk slowly while being electrocuted.

Adding on to this, Batman has more than one piece of equipment capable of inducing shock in the form of his gloves.

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#69 Posted by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@col_facepuncher:I wasn't really commenting on the fight. I was just explaining why black panther could dodge hawkeye's attacks easily but not black widows.

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#70 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: No disagreement there. That's the only reason why I think Batman could potentially win, since BP doesn't appear to have anything more then a slight resistance, if any, to electrical attacks (which does seem kind of stupid for such an awesome combat armor). He struggled for each step after Widow hit him with her first, which was an unexpected shot from her.

I'm just not sure if I think BP would think to dodge a gun, since he is bullet proof, or if he really is capable of sidestepping an on-target shot. Certainly deflecting them, but not getting completely out of the way, which requires a lot more speed. A person can move their hands a lot faster then their body. It shows his reaction times are impeccable, but I'm not sure if his overall speed matches these awesome reaction times. The problem I see is that he is bullet proof to arguably any known gun on earth due to vibranium, so if Batman raises a gun, he might not even bother dodging since he's bullet proof. He might also try deflecting a shot, which would still do the trick for Batman. Either way, the electrical charge would connect, and Batman could achieve a pretty easy victory with enough shots like this after the first one.

Barring any electrical attacks though, BP wins this with absolute ease IMO. Like I said in my first post, he's like the best parts of every one of Batman's villains in one package, with arguably more skill then any single one of them too.

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#71 Posted by deactivated-5a0c8d423f980 (1863 posts) - - Show Bio

@allhailskeletor: what's feats does Deathstroke have? Always liked his character in the Arkham games

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#72 Posted by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I was just commenting on why T'challa was tagged by Widow and could dodge hawkeye easily. I don't know enough about arkham batman to really debate. All though just on the subject of T'challa dodging gunfire I don't think he would be that reckless. He did decide to dodge hawkeye's arrows.

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#73 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: My thing is that I'm not convinced he can outright dodge arrows on target, or something like Widow's shot when it was on target. He's definitely not a bullet timer, as seen from Widow shooting him, since he couldn't react to something after it was fired. Maybe an aim dodger against someone who it's debatable whether he was really trying to shoot him or not. He is fast enough to move his hands to catch arrows when Hawkeye did put arrows right on target, but I don't think he can move his whole body out of the way of an arrow when it's dead center and from short distance.

That's what I think is relatable to this thread. Batman doesn't have to be a superb marksman, but just accurate or unpredictable enough to land a shot.

Also, BP didn't really avoid bullets in the Bucky chase scene. Or he at least didn't react to them. Either way, I think it kind of backs up what I'm getting at.

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#74 Edited by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@jashro44: My thing is that I'm not convinced he can outright dodge arrows on target, or something like Widow's shot when it was on target. He's definitely not a bullet timer, as seen from Widow shooting him, since he couldn't react to something after it was fired. Maybe an aim dodger against someone who it's debatable whether he was really trying to shoot him or not. He is fast enough to move his hands to catch arrows when Hawkeye did put arrows right on target, but I don't think he can move his whole body out of the way of an arrow when it's dead center and from short distance.

That's what I think is relatable to this thread. Batman doesn't have to be a superb marksman, but just accurate or unpredictable enough to land a shot.

Also, BP didn't really avoid bullets in the Bucky chase scene. Or he at least didn't react to them. Either way, I think it kind of backs up what I'm getting at.

I would disagree. As I said with Widow you have to consider the fact that with the first shot T'challa didn't dodge it because he thought they were on the same side but Widow betrayed them at that point. He wasn't expecting to be shot by her and was going after Steve and Bucky. She shot him a bunch of times afterwards but he was hit with the initial shock disk and was likely still recovering from being electrocuted which gave Widow the chance to keep shooting him and she just didn't let up. I think this makes sense because electricity does cause your muscles to seize so this would slow him down I imagine. I agree there is no current evidence that T'challa can dodge a bullet after its fired but I was just saying I don't think the Widow scene is a low showing or necessarily suggests he couldn't dodge her shock disks if he knew she was going to betray him from the start. I think she took him by surprise with her first shot and he couldn't instantly recover from being electrocuted which allowed her to keep shooting him. I think he can definitely react to arrows at least, you can can argue that he was aim dodging against hawkeye but he did catch the last two arrows at least so I think he could dodge arrows after there fired if had to. Because when you catch arrows your intercepting the projectile so your not reacting to the aim at that point.

As for the Bucky scene T'challa was fighting Bucky and was trying to force his claws down when the helicopter shot him from behind IIRC, and he turned around to look at what it was. At that point he already knew the bullets couldn't hurt him so there wasn't much point in reacting.

EDIT: As for not being able to react to Widow's sting after it was fired I guess that is fair but we don't really know how fast the shock disk is so not sure if that proves much either.

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#75 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Fair enough, but I disagree that catching arrows makes someone capable of reacting to arrows after they're fired. It's just predicting where they are aimed still and timing it. It's no different then what goalies in hockey and lacrosse do. The ball and puck don't move quite as fast as arrows, but they aren't too far behind. Pros are pushing over 110 mph with the fastest shots, but goalies are capable of aim catching those shots. No human eye is actually watching the flight of the puck or ball and reacting, but they are reacting to the sticks aim and predicting where the ball or puck will travel to. Maybe not with just their hands like BP did, but the principle is the same, just less impressive.

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#76 Edited by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@jashro44: Fair enough, but I disagree that catching arrows makes someone capable of reacting to arrows after they're fired. It's just predicting where they are aimed still and timing it. It's no different then what goalies in hockey and lacrosse do. The ball and puck don't move quite as fast as arrows, but they aren't too far behind. Pros are pushing over 110 mph with the fastest shots, but goalies are capable of aim catching those shots. No human eye is actually watching the flight of the puck or ball and reacting, but they are reacting to the sticks aim and predicting where the ball or puck will travel to. Maybe not with just their hands like BP did, but the principle is the same, just less impressive.

But the difference with hockey is gollies have gloves that are designed to make catching the puck much easier. I'm not familiar with Lacross to much but gaolies have the net sticks. Also since you and Nick said above you guys are waiting for the scene to be on youtube to view it I found it (skip to 0:46 to look at the hawkeye stuff):

Loading Video...

Here it is in gif form.

No Caption Provided

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#77 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Ya, it's definitely easier because of the gloves and goalie sticks, but goalies aren't superheroes either. I'm just saying that they use the same principle of reacting to where a shot will be off of the aim of the shooter, and not the flight of the puck or ball itself which moves FTE in real life at the higher ends of the pros. Its the same thing for BP, just a lot more impressive. It doesn't make him a true arrow timer without seeing where the shooter is aiming though. It definitely doesn't hurt a case that he could, but I don't think it's any real evidence he can either, specially with the Widow scene when he didn't expect the shot coming and couldn't react in time.

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#78 Posted by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@jashro44: Ya, it's definitely easier because of the gloves and goalie sticks, but goalies aren't superheroes either. I'm just saying that they use the same principle of reacting to where a shot will be off of the aim of the shooter, and not the flight of the puck or ball itself which moves FTE in real life. Its the same thing for BP, just a lot more impressive. It doesn't make him a true arrow timer without seeing where the shooter is aiming though. It definitely doesn't hurt a case that he could, but I don't think it's any real evidence he can either, specially with the Widow scene when he didn't see the shot coming.

Yea but T'challa still has to close his hands around the arrows to catch them. Regardless I analyzed the scene with screen shots and looking at the scene it does look like T'challa at least dodged the second arrow after it was fired:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

  1. Screenshot one shows the arrow on its way and T'challa hasn't tilted his head to the side (which is how he dodged the second arrow)
  2. Screenshot 2 shows the arrow right next to his head and you will notice T'challa has tilted his head slight from the previous screenshot.
  3. And screenshot 3 just shows the arrow moving out of frame and T'challa finishing his motion.

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#79 Posted by Helicoprion (3557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#80 Posted by algorhythm511 (2682 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman should take this given his gear versatility among other things.

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#81 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's what I mean about him catching it, same principle as goalies, just more impressive. He is superhuman. That was obvious in all aspects physically from the film IMO. I wouldn't be surprised to find out in future films that he's even taken the heart shaped herbs. Aim catching something more impressive then a goalie is capable of just makes him a superhuman aim dodger. That's still a big leap into true reacting to an arrow in mid flight. Even the scans you posted had him facing right at Hawkeye. His movements were quick, but they don't really show doing something where he couldn't have seen Hawkeye firing before he dodged.

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#82 Posted by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@jashro44: That's what I mean about him catching it, same principle as goalies, just more impressive. He is superhuman. That was obvious in all aspects physically from the film IMO. I wouldn't be surprised to find out in future films that he's even taken the heart shaped herbs. Aim catching something more impressive then a goalie is capable of just makes him a superhuman aim dodger. That's still a big leap into true reacting to an arrow in mid flight. Even the scans you posted had him facing right at Hawkeye. His movements were quick, but they don't really show doing something where he couldn't have seen Hawkeye firing before he dodged.

Well we do see he hasn't physically started moving out of the way of the arrow until after it was fired. Yea he was facing hawkeye but are you saying the only way he can have an established feat of reacting to an arrow after its fired is if he dodged an arrow shot from behind his back?

As for the hockey analogy again the glove does make a big difference. Like there is prep work goalies do to make sure there gloves can catch the pucks (the puck lands in the glove first and they only need to be fast enough to close there glove before the puck bounces out, where as with an arrow you need to close your hand around the arrow before it hits you), and goalie's also rely on positioning which makes a huge difference. If T'challa had his hands up before the shot was fired the analogy might work (there is more to positioning than that though) but in the video above you can see he is lifting his arms at the same time the arrow being fired (well it looks like to me that he is lifting his arms as we hear the release of the bow string). All though I feel the fact that one would have to close there hands around the arrow is enough to justify they are reacting to the arrow itself, because you can't close your hand before the arrow is fired or has reached you because than you wont catch the arrow. So even if T'challa did get his hands up to catch the arrow a few miliseconds before it was fired I would still say catching an arrow is still reacting to an arrow because he still needs to wrap his hands around it. Like during myth busters (I know there not the best source but I think this conveys my point) the major issue they had with there robot hand was that the robot hand at human speeds could not physically grab onto the arrow:

Loading Video...

Even when they had the hand and the arrow moving at the same time the hand was still to slow to catch the arrow. And we do see T'challa's hands are wide open when the arrows come in (its hard to see in this shot but the white lines I am pointing at are the arrow heads). The act of closing his hand around the arrow couldn't have begun when Clint was still aiming and would have had to have begun while the arrow was in flight:

The white tips I'm pointing at are the arrow heads. T'challa's palms are wide open meaning that they only begin closing when the arrows are in flight (keep in mind in the above video closing the actual hand is what was deemed humanly impossible [realistically]).
The white tips I'm pointing at are the arrow heads. T'challa's palms are wide open meaning that they only begin closing when the arrows are in flight (keep in mind in the above video closing the actual hand is what was deemed humanly impossible [realistically]).
This is when T'challa's hand begins to close. You can also notice that his hands are elevated a few inches from the previous image. This would also suggest the catching motion was done while in flight.
This is when T'challa's hand begins to close. You can also notice that his hands are elevated a few inches from the previous image. This would also suggest the catching motion was done while in flight.

So based on this you can argue at best T'challa lifted his arms up like a milisecond before the arrow was fired but again in order to catch the arrow he still needs to react fast enough to close his hand around the arrow. Sorry for the long explanation on this...But the point is even if T'challa did get his arms up and ready to catch the arrow a few miliseconds in advance he would still have to react to the actual arrow in order to close his hand around it.

As for the heart shaped herb the Russo's did say in an interview that T'challa gets his enhancements from Wakdanain mysticisim or something like that.

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#83 Posted by Beyond (273 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman

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#84 Posted by Smoke-W (402 posts) - - Show Bio

arkham batman ftw!

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#85 Posted by Static Shock (53021 posts) - - Show Bio

He's strong enough to block blows from DS

Deathstroke had no strength feats in Arkham Origins, though. It's hardly impressive.

His armour is a huge conductor and I don't recall vibranium no selling electrical currents.

Black Widow made sure of that. Didn't make a lot of sense, though. His vibranium suit in the comic books took lightning from Storm on two occasions (and in one, the he redirected the lightning that his suit absorbed through his gloves). Then again, MCU Vibranium isn't the same as 616 Vibranium.

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#86 Posted by Static Shock (53021 posts) - - Show Bio
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#87 Posted by Static Shock (53021 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: So glad you posted that video.

A lot of people were convinced that Cap was superior to Panther there, when they were clearly even...

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#88 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice. Batman

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#89 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@payneintheass: Arkham Knight Batman was brutal and skilled AS HELL. So... yeah idk, but with Batman's suit and gadgets AND his brutality and skills and intellect, I think he has an edge.

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#90 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4031 posts) - - Show Bio
@masterkungfu said:

when will people stop equating batman as just "human"?

IDK!!!! I BEEN TRYNA FIGURE THAT OUT!

I HATE WHEN PEOPLE SAY "Oh, Batman loses cuz he "just a human"". LIKE NO DUDE!!!! HE AIN'T!!!

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#91 Edited by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: The F word isn't allowed. Please use another word and read forum rules.

@static_shock said:

@jashro44: So glad you posted that video.

A lot of people were convinced that Cap was superior to Panther there, when they were clearly even...

No problem. And yea I think the issue is war machine was there so everyone kind of thinks cap fought them both at the same time. But T'challa landed his kick before war machine entered the fight, and he wasn't really a factor.

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#92 Edited by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

@static_shock said:
@captain_batman_ftw said:

performs multi-ton feats

Arkham Batman? When? I'm curious.

There's him pulling Solomon Grundy's fingers away so he could get loose:

Loading Video...

This is actually a muli-ton feat, considering that Grundy's the same guy that easily overpowered and punched Bane out of a building (IIRC), and that's impressive as hell considering that Bane is the same guy who treated a 10 ton APC like a tennis ball.

Then there's him single-handedly tearing apart iron without much effort (that does seem like iron):

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He pulled up a car in what seess to be an instance where he didn't struggle:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

One which not many people are aware of, is the time when Batman cracked up the ground by smashing someone on the ground:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is also very impressive, and most definitely a multi-ton feat, considering that the human body is in nowhere near durable enough to crack the ground by being dropped on it, or fall on it. It's not even durable enough to scratch the ground with its impact. Yet Batman was so strong that he completely tore up the ground by smashing a human being on the ground. That certainly requires multiple tons of force.

There's also him regularly knocking out titans, who tore apart iron as if it was paper tissue. Not to mention that they can make an entire floor shake with their punches, and they also create shockwaves with their punches. That's the type of beings Arkham Batman regularly knock out, sometimes twice at a time.

What do you think about the battle, though? I certainly think that Batman wins in a decent fight, because:

  • Batman is most definitely faster. He's speed blitzed multiple trained soldiers in the fraction of a second, taking all out before any of them could react means that he literally took them all out in less than 0,2 seconds, as 0,2 seconds is the average reaction time of a human being. These soldiers are trained spec ops soldiers, so he blitzed trained spec ops soldiers. Which literally puts Batman's combat speed multitude times above that of Black Panther's.
  • While Black Panther may be stronger than Batman (due to overpowering Bucky and being shown as Steve's equal), that isn't by much. And strenght won't be that important either seeing how Batman's much more versatile one, faster one and more skilled one.
  • Speaking of skill, Arkham Batman is an expert of almost every single martial art known to man (I can post a scan if you want proof). None of the MCU street levelers are anywhere near as good fighters as Arkham Batman, and Black Panther was skilled, but it seemed like his claws were his biggest offensive capabilities. Batman's regularly walked through groups of 20+ men. And in Arkham Knight, Batman defeated groups of 20+ spec ops soldiers who literally had every single piece of knowledge on Batman's fighting style, gadgets, etc. He did that multiple times.

The armor would be a pain in the ass, but Batman does have electrical weapons, which are actually more powerful than Black Widow's. I do believe that because the electricity dispenser Batman has, is powerful enough to charge up elevators and gates and whatnot. While it's obvious that Batman won't go for electricity as an offensive tactic, I do think that he'll use it eventually seeing how 50% of Batman's combat consists of using electricity.

Black Panther's claws would also be something Batman can't deny (can't find a better word right now). But I'm pretty sure that Batman won't have no issues dodging T'Challa's hits, granted that Batman has faster combat speed (speed blitzing multiple soldiers in a fraction of a second).

Pardon me for the lack of evidence for some of these instances, I would put them up, but I'm really tired now, so I can put them up later if you want me to.

I'm 100% sure that Black Panther is going to become much more powerful, and also that my opinion is going to change, so I can give the win to T'Challa. The comic version has ridiculous power levels, so I'm pretty sure that T'Challa is going to become a thousand times more powerful in future appearances than what he was in Civil War. lol

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#93 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: @jashro44:

Actually...Batman can feel the shifts of the air to tell when something(a punch, object, ect) is being thrown at him without even looking. In Canon AND Arkham Batman:

No Caption Provided

So.. now only does Batman have awesome reflexes and speed, he also has a 6th sense(kinda?) along with it.

This was just something I thought you two could take into consideration.

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#94 Posted by CaptainJapanSavesTokyo (130 posts) - - Show Bio

If Batman has prep, he could pull of a win

Without prep, Black Panther would rip him apart

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#95 Edited by BatmanPlusJay (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@batmanplusjay: The F word isn't allowed. Please use another word and read forum rules

My Bad. It's just a habit. I'll fix.

Nevermind...you fixed it already... XD

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#96 Posted by jashro44 (52501 posts) - - Show Bio

@batmanplusjay: I wasn't making a case for batman. I was just saying T'challa can react to arrows and that was pretty much the entire discussion.

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#97 Posted by BatmanPlusJay (4031 posts) - - Show Bio
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#98 Posted by Static Shock (53021 posts) - - Show Bio

@captain_batman_ftw: It's hard to say whether or not he actually pulled that car up with strength alone. We don't see him actually pull it on his own, either. In that last panel, it doesn't look like he's holding his grapple gun. It looks like it's hooked to something. He's not even shown holding the gun with both hands, and the average car weighs at least 4000 lbs these days.

The panel he pulls off the voltage box is definitely metal, but not enough evidence to prove that it's iron.

As for the battle, Arkham Batman definitely has more showings than MCU T'Challa right now. There's even enough evidence to support the latter. No point in debating in my opinion.

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#99 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

@static_shock:

It's hard to say whether or not he actually pulled that car up with strength alone. We don't see him actually pull it on his own, either. In that last panel, it doesn't look like he's holding his grapple gun. It looks like it's hooked to something. He's not even shown holding the gun with both hands, and the average car weighs at least 4000 lbs these days.

That was a very vague feats/instance.

Without debating or arguing, who do you think wins? Just curious.

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#100 Posted by TifaLockhart (21111 posts) - - Show Bio

Croc no-sold a sniper bullet. Ran through gates in his lair without slowing down.

Rookie Batman was punched through a concrete wall in Blackgate by TN-1 Bane and was ok.

I'm not saying who wins as I've yet to see Civil War, but the Arkham guys aren't all featless as some suggest.