MCU Battle: Grant Ward vs Frank Castle

@the_magister said:

@jayc1324: Ward was literally hurled onto the ground by a full-body slam from a Centipede Soldier and just kept fighting without missing a beat, I don't see Frank holding up that well against a superhuman. He has zero feats to suggest that he could.

I think there is a tiered difference between the Matt that Frank beat and current Matt. Current Matt would take a 5.5-6/10 majority against Ward as far as h2h goes, in my opinion. We literally have statements from Charlie Cox that Matt was intended to get "stronger, faster, better" by the time Season 2 ended, due to dealing with the Hand. Current Matt can match May. Early Season 2 Matt would get stomped by May. I think to pose a legitimate challenge to the elite agents, you need to move WAY past the point of even struggling a bit with street thug fodder. Matt did that. Frank didn't. One of them improved vastly, one of them stayed in the same place as far as combat goes.

Also, we have a direct comparison between May and Matt in speed. May dodged Scarlotti's chain-spear with ease. Scarlotti's weapon is several times faster than the type of shoge-hook that Nobu uses. Matt got tagged, May didn't:

That statement from Matt is good, but I don't think it grants Frank any sort of advantage here. And it's certainly not enough to offset Ward's reflex feat that I posted above:

I still don't think that Frank stands a chance.

it's not like he broke the ground or anything. it was a normal slam. Probably not more force than this fall Frank took. These centipedes are not going all out. besides Ward isn't that strong anyway, so it isn't like Frank has to be able to take that slam. He just has to take Ward's best hits, which he can if he took hits from Fisk and Matt.

And unless May flips through bullets I think Matt is faster. Nobu and that guy have different skill levels with their weapons, you can't compare them directly like that. A lot of it is due to skill and timing with it. Often Nobu was moving faster than Matt and dodging his hits to keep him off balance, then tagging him after he missed. Matt was able to not get tagged at first, but Nobu was outskilling him and attacking him when Matt left himself open. It is completely different imo and I hope you can see why. I also never used feats or fights from Matt from late season 2 or beyond, and I did that on purpose to avoid arguing about Cox's statement. I think he is just as good as May without those extra feats. Bullet dodging is enough.

@jayc1324: Why would the Centipedes not be going all-out? They have shown zero reason to hold back against the agents. Like, zero. All due respect, suggesting that the fall Frank took is better than a slam by a Centipede Soldier with Cap-like physicals is inaccurate imo, that fall wasn't even that bad. Plus Cap doesn't shatter the environment every time he slams or throws someone, but the impacts are still brutal.

May's flipped through bullets against trained HYDRA agents, while returning fire as she is upside-down and in mid-air:

Yes we can compare Scarlotti and Nobu. When in competent hands, the type of chain spear that Scarlotti uses is atleast 2x as fast as a shoge-hook. I think @paytience did the calcs at one point. Plus neither of them have really any feats besides the ones against Matt and May respectively. So without any external references, May's feat is just better.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here though, I respect the points you're making and I don't want to go into a circular argument. You're a good debater.

@the_magister: ok fair enough

@jayc1324: For what it's worth, I think Frank's tactics and physicality would be enough to give the likes of Giyera and Clint good fights. He'd beat Clint imo, and Giyera might beat him but not easily at all.

R1: Ward with low difficulty, he has every advantage on Frank, butI wouldn't necessarily call it a stomp.

R2: Ward, possibly a stomp. He's actually trained in knife fighting and has comparable level of gun skill, I'd argue he's even better in some categories, though not quite Punisher level overall IMO.

Ward wins round 1. Not sure about 2.

@amcu: @anthp2000: @asianantics:

Firearms wise, Frank and Ward are in a weird space where they both have such differing styles that their feats with guns are different af.

So I can see them replicating each other's feats, but at the same time I can't. Lmao

@the_magister: Gun wise, Ward is the better shooter. Frank might be the better gunman. Tactically Frank may be better with guns, but that could also be implied simply because Wa4d is so damn good as a shooter that things like overwhelming volume of fire are near meaningless to him effect wise.

Why use 12 shots to supress 1 or 2 people, when he can use 12 shots to kill 12 just as fast?

Id bet Ward simply because if you rewatch the whole Russo scene, there wasn't any point where Frank was winning except for the end. Yeah, Russo prepped, but fact is he had Frank dead to rights on like, 5 separate occasions, and was winning the h2h (yes, knives are technically h2h) right up until the very end, when Frank turned it on him.

Based on that I see Ward winning, as he is flat out better at everything than Russo is, and doesn't have the personal attachment that allowed the f8ght to last as long as it did.

@the_magister:

I agree, it's difficult to rank gunsmen in the MCU. But I don't know how the hell Frank did what he did in S2E1.

I think round 1 would go like any of Frank's fights with Daredevil. Round 2, Frank wrecks.

@anthp2000: @anthp2000

I compared his shot to Ward's in another thread. Heres a page link:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/who-is-the-best-marksman-in-the-mcu-1899097/?page=2

@paytience: I agree that Ward wrecks in h2h.

May's feats this season have put into perspective just how impressive Ward keeping up with her is.

@the_magister:

Yeah but Frank was matching early S2 Daredevil who has that top tier skill showings of almost losing to the trash thugs of the dogs of hell.

@anthp2000: Lol.

In all seriousness, maybe saying Ward wrecks is a bit too much. Frank's damage soak will allow him to persist and land a couple of hits. But Ward is just as physically formidable, and vastly more skilled.

@the_magister:

Pretty much. I don't believe there are still people who think pre-Defebders Matt, or even frkn S1 Matt would be a match, or too much for the best agents tho.

This just speaks miles of the favoritism Netflix characters get because they're big names in the 616 universe. But one thing I love about the MCU is that it hardly stays too loyal to the power levels in the comics.

That would make things too predictable, like the writers/directors themselves have said more than once.

Ward wins both rounds.

If that's the case, why isn't it a stomp?

Basically just because of Frank's own inhuman pain tolerance allowing him to stay in the fight for a while.

Frank stomps both rounds

Ward for 1, Frank for 2, imo

Ward may be a better H2H fighter but wouldn't Castle be able to withstand enough punishment in that area to eventually gain the upper hand? I don't think Ward is KO'ing him befor Castle gets in a devastating blow.

@sawed_off_it: The problem is he has to land a "devastating blow" on someone who took a hook.from a centipede soldier square on the chin and didn't drop. He was rocked, but he was on his feet and still fighting. Castle doesn't have anything like that. Wards pain tolerance is pretty ridiculous as well. All the agents have the ability to basically ignore pain. Ward took abullet without flinching, and hed already been shot twice at that point, once immediately beforehand.

@paytience: I guess I should give AoS a chance. I just remember the horrid reviews when it first aired and the complaints of how bad season 1 was. Since then, I haven't even tried.

@sawed_off_it: It's honestly the best MCU show at this point. It's gotten pretty acclaimed over the course of its runtime. Don't let the first few slow episodes stop you from riding the AoS rollercoaster. Season 1 gets way better, and every season after that is solidly 90% or above imo (and in Rotten Tomatoes' opinion).

Anyways, as far as this fight goes, I don't think Frank can contend in pure h2h. Since you don't watch AoS, I got some stuff for ya. :)

Ward is just as strong, with better striking overall. And the skill/speed gap is nothing short of massive.

• Top combat grades at SHIELD
• Highest espionage scores since Black Widow
• Can keep up with Melinda May, who is outright considered to be a better martial artist than Black Widow (an official statement by Marvel pegs May as the most lethal agent that SHIELD's ever seen)
• Can fight a supersoldier with arguably greater physicals than Cap and land significant blows
• Referred to as the "finest soldier that HYDRA ever made" by one of HYDRA's most powerful leaders
• Called "a trained killer, one of the best" by a general of the Red Skull who lived into modern times by granting himself scientific immortality

Ward has is superior to Frank in every measure possible. He's stronger faster, much more skilled, has a better tactical mind , and is potentially even more skilled with guns than Frank is. I don't see a situation where Frank beats Ward.

@purplejesus: Maybe in a grunting contest? Of manly grunts?

Frank has Ward beat there.

@the_magister: Frank does have the best grunt of anyone in the MCU.

@the_magister: Thanks for the info.

Wait though, Ward is a villian??? All I've seen on this forum has him painted as a protagonist.

Watch Season 1 to find out ;)

@angeljax: @sawed_off_it: lol...no one say a thing. Go watch the show.

Frank both rounds.

@sawed_off_it: catch up on AoS.

@huthimamwa: Opinion on this fight?

Are people really siding with Frank here?

Only like a couple of people.

Most people think Ward wrecks or atleast wins decisively.

Ward and Bobbi's identity revelations were the best mouth dropping moments of the show.

This post is highly relevant to the topic

@the_magister:

It's relevant with posts #79-81.

smh...

@anthp2000: Oh

Yeah you're right

Still not a stomp, IDC what anyone says.

Frank needs more respect...

None of ^ matters Frank fights dirty, I'd be willing to bet Frank get's in close and does the unexpected possibly via eye gouge or nose bite. The only MCU fighters that stand a chance up close are meta humans due to Frank's unwavering resilience and from afar Frank is the best we have seen with a gun. Grant may be better technically but he has never faced a man willing to do what Frank will do, and say Grant does win I just hope he was wearing some eye goggles.

Ward stomps.

Tbh IDK what I was saying earlier in this thread, or what drugs I was on.

Ward stomps, both in-universe and by feats.

Ward in a good fight. TBH, I don't see anyone, irrespective of their skill, stomping Frank.

Because of his pain tolerance?

Yeah. Pain tolerance / damage soak, whatever you wanna call it.

You were just trying to make a debate.

I honestly don't see Frank contending with the high tier agents.

Backing Ward, but I think I overstated the gap. Like bleidd said, I don't see any peak human stomping Frank. He is too good for that, resourceful and tactical and equipped with great pain tolerance. His skill is also underrated.

Frank gets stomped by any peak human :)