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#1 Edited by huthimamwa (2562 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: H2H only. Fight till death.

Round 2: Each gets a combat knife and a handgun. Fight til death.

Sorry if its been done. Couldn't find one.

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#2 Posted by Harbingerofmomz (676 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 id give to Ward, Frank showed very good hand to hand but Ward has taken out groups of trained people with relative ease, so until frank has more feats in pure h2h, I'll give it to Ward in a close one.

Round 2 I give to Frank, he's undeniable more crazy when it comes to fighting with weapons, and was going berserk in that prison scene.

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#3 Edited by huthimamwa (2562 posts) - - Show Bio

@harbingerofmomz: the prison scene was the very reason I made this thread. Hah. I don't remember the last time I've seen that kind of utter brutality and ruthlessness from a live action comic character.

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#4 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

This would be a pretty awesome fight to see, but I think Ward has the edge in straight h2h, he has taken on many of lvl 5 S.H.I.E.L.D./Hydra Agents, May, Bobbi, the Centipede Soldier, he decimated Tripp etc.

Backing Frank for 2, taking 32 men is no joke.

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#5 Posted by Harbingerofmomz (676 posts) - - Show Bio

@huthimamwa: yeah that scene was brutal, with the stabbing and then blood and the more stabbing. I thought Jessica Jones tearing the head off a dead body was brutal, but then I watched that scene, lol.

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#6 Edited by Paytience (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

The prison scene vs the the dozen level 5 tactical agents tells us that Frank Castle isn't beating ward h2h and it shows it pretty definitively. Unless there is a reason 8 inmates with prison weapons even competes with a dozen agents in full kit I don't think there is much debate.

With guns it's near a wash. Ward is the better pure marksman, but Castle appears to be a little faster on the draw with a pistol. Ward is more precise but Castle shows better use of mass fire. Tactically, the edge is Wards and so is the long game.

On paper with guns, Castle has the advantage in an offensive assault, but he isn't good enough to beat Ward for a majority in CQC ranges due to Wards superior h2h feats and battlefield control.

Although with guns there is enough discrepancy at this level that you cannot really call it. Even if real life, a scout sniper is gonna win most gun battles against almost anybody if the firepower options and concealment are there. But Ward is the best sniper in the MCU, and one of the best gunmen all around.

It's a wash...a guaranteed gun win for either depends on too many situational factors. Both are accurate, both are fast. And mass fire vs precision fire cancels eachother out situationally.

No guns...Ward wins, moderate difficulty. With guns...slight edge to Ward but it's overall in my eyes a draw.

So...ward takes this.

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#7 Posted by bflynn316 (2666 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Frank a lot better, but he isn't beating Ward. The only thing he has on him is he can take more damage. But he's still going down after a long, brutal fight.

I'm saying Ward both rounds.

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#8 Posted by bflynn316 (2666 posts) - - Show Bio
Loading Video...

This scene in particular makes me think Ward is above Frank

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#9 Posted by ILostTheKey (993 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank in all 3

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#10 Posted by zr0c00l (3143 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward has much better feats than frank

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#11 Edited by Royal_Warrior (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward is just better than frank in every aspect

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#12 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36855 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: H2H only. Fight till death.: Close as hell.

Round 2: Each gets a combat knife and a handgun. Fight til death.: Ward stomps, he's a better shooter.

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#13 Posted by TheSuperor (6842 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward both rounds

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#14 Posted by JediXMan (42744 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't know about h2h, but if that video above is any indication, Ward wins with guns. That's pretty impressive.

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#15 Edited by TheNaughtyTitan (10001 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward definitely takes round 2, but I think round 1 is a toss up. While Ward is the superior H2H combatant by skill standards, Frank can definitely stay in the fight via toughness and keep in mind he was able to hold his own against Daredevil on more than one occasion. I think it'd be a good back and fourth fight.

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#16 Posted by T1793456 (322 posts) - - Show Bio

Still Ward

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#17 Posted by huthimamwa (2562 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#18 Edited by AllStarSuperman (43256 posts) - - Show Bio

Grant Ward, I'd love to see these twos interactions.

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#19 Posted by blacharrt (1932 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward would lose.

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#20 Posted by devinwifi (1323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by hulkbuster94 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher should win his off screen feat his old colonel brings forward of him clearing a landing area of insurgents single handily along with the rest of his feats from the show should give Frank the win.

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#22 Posted by Royal_Warrior (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

Still ward both rounds

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#23 Edited by xtreme1 (4106 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward both rounds.

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#24 Posted by hulkbuster94 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah Frank stomps.

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#25 Posted by phoenixdiamond616 (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 id give to Ward, Frank showed very good hand to hand but Ward has taken out groups of trained people with relative ease, so until frank has more feats in pure h2h, I'll give it to Ward in a close one.

Round 2 I give to Frank, he's undeniable more crazy when it comes to fighting with weapons, and was going berserk in that prison scene.

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#26 Posted by AngelJax (11765 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward decimates both rounds.

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#27 Posted by DSTREET45 (5281 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward both rounds.

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#28 Posted by nfactor1995 (12947 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward is simply better

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#29 Posted by Comicbooklover90 (167 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP! Lol ward was struggling with taking down morse after having tortured her for hours and then having agent 33 help him so i definently think Frank takes all rounds!

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#31 Posted by AngelJax (11765 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicbooklover90: That's a testament to Bobbi's sheer skill. Ward struggling to take out the show's best fighter isn't a low showing.

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#32 Posted by huthimamwa (2562 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for new Punisher feats

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#33 Posted by AngelJax (11765 posts) - - Show Bio

@angeljax said:

Ward decimates both rounds

Still this

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#35 Posted by ghost_rider1 (4235 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank has little chance against Ward in h2h and in a gun battle. Ward win both rounds with mid to low difficulty

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#36 Posted by zill0678 (2398 posts) - - Show Bio

Prior to this punishers season i could see little chance of him taking ward in hand 2 hand. even in round 2 it was looking dicey. it was implied in daredevil season 2 that punisher was real tough but his season confirmed that and more. his durability, pain tolerance, and just unwillingness to die or give up in a fight are really only rivaled by matt or even cap in MCU and its probably higher than them.

Round one. ward 7/10. the reason ward still wins is ward is a take no prisoners win at all cost type of hand to hand style which is brutal and efficient coupled with the fact that ward is smart enough to not engage in a blocking with the face contest with frank. also ward all while hes fighting will be engaging in psychological warfare probing frank for weaknesses and attachments. it would only be a matter of time before ward discovered the lose family and use it to blind rage frank from a good fighter to a brawler. franks toughness feats alone on top of his toe to toe with fisk give frank a few wins

round two. ward wins. ward wont let it get to knife to knife combat where frank has a chance. but even if it does it only gives frank a few wins

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#37 Posted by dami24434 (4403 posts) - - Show Bio

ward both rounds

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#38 Posted by tj849 (8569 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank manhandles.

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#39 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

both rounds 5/5 for both characters

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#40 Posted by jayskee (4885 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank both rounds

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#41 Posted by Paytience (5026 posts) - - Show Bio

Ward both rounds. Both are good fights.

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#43 Posted by jayc1324 (26431 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience said:

Both are good fights.

Honestly, I agree with you on a lot, but I don't think this is particularly close. Ward is better than Frank in just about everything.

Disagree. Frank has equal if not better pain tolerance and durability, and is just as strong. Frank also has an aim dodging feat. Imo Frank is not better than Ward at anything besides pure gunfighting, but he isn't outclassed by him or anything. Ward just has some advantages in skill.

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#44 Edited by The_Magister (14315 posts) - - Show Bio
@jayc1324 said:
@the_magister said:
@paytience said:

Both are good fights.

Honestly, I agree with you on a lot, but I don't think this is particularly close. Ward is better than Frank in just about everything.

Disagree. Frank has equal if not better pain tolerance and durability, and is just as strong. Frank also has an aim dodging feat. Imo Frank is not better than Ward at anything besides pure gunfighting, but he isn't outclassed by him or anything. Ward just has some advantages in skill.

I think in-universe, Frank is intended to be slightly stronger than Ward so I am willing to give him an edge there. But that's where his advantages end.

As far as damage soak goes, Ward's showing against the Centipede Soldier blows anything Frank has done out of the water.

Frank has an aim-dodging feat, but nothing that even remotely comes close to this:

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Skill-wise, Ward has an astronomical edge in my opinion. In-universe, SHIELD and HYDRA both considered him one of their absolute best. He was referred to as one of the best trained killers by Daniel Whitehall, one of the most lethal operatives by Melinda May, etc. His choreography is slicker, and he is generally more fluid and precise when he fights. I don't see Frank stomping a Level 6 SHIELD Combat Specialist like Tripp, engaging a spec ops-trained supersoldier for a prolonged period of time, keeping up with Melinda May, taking out 5-6 Level 5 SHIELD agents coming at him from all sides, or holding his own against Coulson after having been shot twice and cuffed at the wrists.

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#45 Posted by jayc1324 (26431 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:
@the_magister said:
@paytience said:

Both are good fights.

Honestly, I agree with you on a lot, but I don't think this is particularly close. Ward is better than Frank in just about everything.

Disagree. Frank has equal if not better pain tolerance and durability, and is just as strong. Frank also has an aim dodging feat. Imo Frank is not better than Ward at anything besides pure gunfighting, but he isn't outclassed by him or anything. Ward just has some advantages in skill.

I think in-universe, Frank is intended to be slightly stronger than Ward so I am willing to give him an edge there. But that's where his advantages end.

As far as damage soak goes, Ward's showing against the Centipede Soldier blows anything Frank has done out of the water.

Frank has an aim-dodging feat, but nothing that even remotely comes close to this:

No Caption Provided

Skill-wise, Ward has an astronomical edge in my opinion. In-universe, SHIELD and HYDRA both considered him one of their absolute best. He was referred to as one of the best trained killers by Daniel Whitehall, one of the most lethal operatives by Melinda May, etc. His choreography is slicker, and he is generally more fluid and precise when he fights. I don't see Frank stomping a Level 6 SHIELD Combat Specialist like Tripp, engaging a spec ops-trained supersoldier for a prolonged period of time, keeping up with Melinda May, taking out 5-6 Level 5 SHIELD agents coming at him from all sides, or holding his own against Coulson after having been shot twice and cuffed at the wrists.

Which Centipede feat? I'll wait to see it but I don't think Ward has ever been put through the punishment that Frank has.

And I don't know that Ward's skill advantage puts him that far above Frank in a fight. I mean sure, in pure skill Ward is way way way better than Frank. But Daredevil is also massively above Frank, and Frank made up for it with his durability. So while it is an edge for Ward, it doesn't put him on a level where he could stomp Frank or take him out easily. Frank has shown that he can make up for a skill deficiency with his physicals. Frank could do everything you just listed imo. It wouldn't be as easy or smooth, but he can do it. Tripp isn't as good as Daredevil, neither is Coulson. If Frank can keep up with Daredevil with a bullet in his arm, and take out a group of special forces soldiers sent to kill him with an arrow in his chest and after being shot I think he can take Coulson after being shot. Depowered Thor stomped random SHIELD agents, I think Frank could do it. He would lose to May eventually but so did Ward.

Once again, Ward is better, but not by any extreme amount that Frank couldn't hold his own and do damage of his own. Fisk beat the crap out of Frank, after Frank had been in a brutal fight where he got stabbed, and Frank just tanked it. He is hard for anyone to put down.

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#46 Edited by The_Magister (14315 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Which Centipede feat? I'll wait to see it but I don't think Ward has ever been put through the punishment that Frank has.

For reference, these guys can casually smash through brick by just jamming their fingers into walls and one arm 3-4 ton shipping containers across industrial warehouses.

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And I don't know that Ward's skill advantage puts him that far above Frank in a fight. I mean sure, in pure skill Ward is way way way better than Frank. But Daredevil is also massively above Frank, and Frank made up for it with his durability. So while it is an edge for Ward, it doesn't put him on a level where he could stomp Frank or take him out easily. Frank has shown that he can make up for a skill deficiency with his physicals. Frank could do everything you just listed imo. It wouldn't be as easy or smooth, but he can do it. Tripp isn't as good as Daredevil, neither is Coulson. If Frank can keep up with Daredevil with a bullet in his arm, and take out a group of special forces soldiers sent to kill him with an arrow in his chest and after being shot I think he can take Coulson after being shot. Depowered Thor stomped random SHIELD agents, I think Frank could do it. He would lose to May eventually but so did Ward.

Tbh I don't see Frank giving Coulson hell under the same circumstances that Ward did. Coulson is good enough to knock aside a renowned Kree warrior, gain the upper hand on Agent 33, and casually fodderize the type of street thugs depicted in the MCU Netflix shows.

Depowered Thor stomped SHIELD agents, but I feel like the guys Ward faced were intended to be better. Off the top of my head - Akela Amador, someone Coulson described as a talented operative who could regularly pull off the kind of impossible things that 99% of people couldn't... she was a Level 4 agent at SHIELD. The guys Ward faced in that hallway were all Level 5.

And Tripp was even better than these guys, as a Level 6 Combat Specialist. I don't see Frank stomping him in-universe, Tripp is literally either equal to or only a notch below people like Natasha and Clint in rank.

Taking on May requires a certain degree of skill and physicality that Frank lacks, imo. He has the physicals to contend, but she is just way too fast, skilled, agile, and talented for him. Ward is one of the very few unenhanced people who can match her like that. May had more trouble with Ward than she did with Marcus Scarlotti, an assassin renowned for almost having killed Hawkeye in a past encounter. Frank just isn't at that level from what I've seen.

Once again, Ward is better, but not by any extreme amount that Frank couldn't hold his own and do damage of his own. Fisk beat the crap out of Frank, after Frank had been in a brutal fight where he got stabbed, and Frank just tanked it. He is hard for anyone to put down.

I think Frank might get a couple of licks in, but nothing significant. He'd be hard to put down, but Ward has the strength and skill to bring him down while suffering only very minor damage himself imo.

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#48 Posted by jayc1324 (26431 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

Which Centipede feat? I'll wait to see it but I don't think Ward has ever been put through the punishment that Frank has.

For reference, these guys can casually smash through brick by just jamming their fingers into walls and one arm 3-4 ton shipping containers across industrial warehouses.

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And I don't know that Ward's skill advantage puts him that far above Frank in a fight. I mean sure, in pure skill Ward is way way way better than Frank. But Daredevil is also massively above Frank, and Frank made up for it with his durability. So while it is an edge for Ward, it doesn't put him on a level where he could stomp Frank or take him out easily. Frank has shown that he can make up for a skill deficiency with his physicals. Frank could do everything you just listed imo. It wouldn't be as easy or smooth, but he can do it. Tripp isn't as good as Daredevil, neither is Coulson. If Frank can keep up with Daredevil with a bullet in his arm, and take out a group of special forces soldiers sent to kill him with an arrow in his chest and after being shot I think he can take Coulson after being shot. Depowered Thor stomped random SHIELD agents, I think Frank could do it. He would lose to May eventually but so did Ward.

Tbh I don't see Frank giving Coulson hell under the same circumstances that Ward did. Coulson is good enough to knock aside a renowned Kree warrior, gain the upper hand on Agent 33, and casually fodderize the type of street thugs depicted in the MCU Netflix shows.

Depowered Thor stomped SHIELD agents, but I feel like the guys Ward faced were intended to be better. Off the top of my head - Akela Amador, someone Coulson described as a talented operative who could regularly pull off the kind of impossible things that 99% of people couldn't... she was a Level 4 agent at SHIELD. The guys Ward faced in that hallway were all Level 5.

And Tripp was even better than these guys, as a Level 6 Combat Specialist. I don't see Frank stomping him in-universe, Tripp is literally either equal to or only a notch below people like Natasha and Clint in rank.

Taking on May requires a certain degree of skill and physicality that Frank lacks, imo. He has the physicals to contend, but she is just way too fast, skilled, agile, and talented for him. Ward is one of the very few unenhanced people who can match her like that. May had more trouble with Ward than she did with Marcus Scarlotti, an assassin renowned for almost having killed Hawkeye in a past encounter. Frank just isn't at that level from what I've seen.

Once again, Ward is better, but not by any extreme amount that Frank couldn't hold his own and do damage of his own. Fisk beat the crap out of Frank, after Frank had been in a brutal fight where he got stabbed, and Frank just tanked it. He is hard for anyone to put down.

I think Frank might get a couple of licks in, but nothing significant. He'd be hard to put down, but Ward has the strength and skill to bring him down while suffering only very minor damage imo.

The only impressive thing there is the hit he took from a Centipede soldier, and even that didn't send him flying that far. He isn't being hit with their full force clearly.

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And I don't see how May is too fast for him when Daredevil isn't. Matt flips through automatic gunfire at point blank range, and Frank kept up with him. If Frank can keep up with someone like that he can keep up with May. She is in no way too fast for him. I don't know if you just don't have that much respect for Daredevil or what but Daredevil is on the same level as May and Ward and Frank had no problem fighting him. Daredevil has the same strength feats as Ward, throwing people around, ragdolling them, and sending them flying with hits. In universe and by feats Daredevil is at least as skilled as Ward. Daredevil is faster than Ward, as seen in the video I posted above. Daredevil is wearing a literal suit of armor. All that, and Frank still held his own against him. That is really the main reason I don't see him having a problem fighting Ward, or random SHIELD agents who have nothing but statements backing them up. He basically already did it.

You yourself already said Frank is just as strong as him, and Matt himself admitted Frank was very fast, and very well trained. Again this is the guy who flips through gunfire, and he is calling Frank fast, that is like the ultimate compliment. By every measure he seems to hold up to Ward pretty well, besides pure skill.

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#49 Edited by The_Magister (14315 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324: Ward was literally hurled onto the ground by a full-body slam from a Centipede Soldier and just kept fighting without missing a beat, I don't see Frank holding up that well against a superhuman. He has zero feats to suggest that he could.

I think there is a tiered difference between the Matt that Frank beat and current Matt. Current Matt would take a 5.5-6/10 majority against Ward as far as h2h goes, in my opinion. We literally have statements from Charlie Cox that Matt was intended to get "stronger, faster, better" by the time Season 2 ended, due to dealing with the Hand. Current Matt can match May. Early Season 2 Matt would get stomped by May. I think to pose a legitimate challenge to the elite agents, you need to move WAY past the point of even struggling a bit with street thug fodder. Matt did that. Frank didn't. One of them improved vastly, one of them stayed in the same place as far as combat goes.

Also, we have a direct comparison between May and Matt in speed. May dodged Scarlotti's chain-spear with ease. Scarlotti's weapon is several times faster than the type of shoge-hook that Nobu uses. Matt got tagged, May didn't:

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That statement from Matt is good, but I don't think it grants Frank any sort of advantage here. And it's certainly not enough to offset Ward's reflex feat that I posted above:

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I still don't think that Frank stands a chance.