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#51 Posted by TifaLockhart (21107 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul- sliced in half, fell down a shaft - survived.

Snoke- sliced in half, fell off a chair - died.

Just sayin'.

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#52 Posted by terry2012 (9818 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul.

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#53 Posted by deactivated-5c63f773eaecf (1549 posts) - - Show Bio
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Maul- sliced in half, fell down a shaft - survived.

Snoke- sliced in half, fell off a chair - died.

Just sayin'.

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#54 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: True, but I was mostly referring to it in a combative sense. Will post a quote later regarding the matter when I'm not on mobile.

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#55 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@tifalockhart: HOLY HADES I'M DYING. OMGGGGGG I can't stop loling. One of the funniest replies I've ever read on here.

@redheathen: True, but I was mostly referring to it in a combative sense. Will post a quote later regarding the matter when I'm not on mobile.

I look forward to it. Thanks. :)

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#56 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@tifalockhart: HOLY HADES I'M DYING. OMGGGGGG I can't stop loling. One of the funniest replies I've ever read on here.

Its true though.

Which was my point and why I was curious if the willpower=Force power notion from Legends could be applied to canon. Because if so, then a case can definitely be made for Maul.

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#57 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen said:

@tifalockhart: HOLY HADES I'M DYING. OMGGGGGG I can't stop loling. One of the funniest replies I've ever read on here.

Its true though.

Which was my point and why I was curious if the willpower=Force power notion from Legends could be applied to canon. Because if so, then a case can definitely be made for Maul.

I'm not sure if will power = force power, but then perhaps it could be. will power if definitely discussed as being a reason why some combatants win, but as to canon v legends...hmm.

What do you think about using the script from ROTJ? The scene where Vader throws Sidious down the shaft discusses Vader being very weak. In the novel, without using the word willpower, will power pretty much describes how Vader is able to push through his weakened state, which is described as being the weakest he's ever been. Without putting much thought into it, my first thought is that if we don't tally up his action to will power, then could we say that Vader was possibly stronger than or at least equal to Sidious' power? Vader was in horrible condition, but he still got up and just simply threw the Emperor to his death. Granted, Vader died as well, but the fact remains that even in an extremely weakened state, including the loss of one hand, Vader tanks through Sidious' most lethal lightning and then picks him up and tosses him aside like yesterday's trash.

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#58 Edited by Richard96 (5729 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr:

“You're welcome to show me a more impressive TK feat than Rey's from anyone sub-Dooku level. She's also equal in power to a guy that freezes blaster bolts and knocks people unconscious with a wave of his hand.”

Those rocks were roughly as large as a human chest. They were dozens, but I don’t think it was more than 2/3 tons of stone. TCW maul did already better when he dragged down a starship, than weights at least several tons, while running and while holding savage. Freezing blaster nokts midair is more a matter of skill than power, also. I really don’t see ragdolling Rey as a sidious tier feat.

“Maybe Obi-Wan could ragdoll someone across the galaxy, but given that nothing suggests this is the case, please understand that this argument is not changing my position.”

Still, nothing suggest that only a sidious tier force user can ragdoll a non force sensitive across the galaxy. It is just a loop argument. While it is obviously a top tier feat, you can’t prove it is a sidious tier feat only.

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#59 Edited by RGR (408 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@rgr:

“You're welcome to show me a more impressive TK feat than Rey's from anyone sub-Dooku level. She's also equal in power to a guy that freezes blaster bolts and knocks people unconscious with a wave of his hand.”

Those rocks were roughly as large as a human chest. They were dozens, but I don’t think it was more than 2/3 tons of stone. TCW maul did already better when he dragged down a starship, than weights at least several tons, while running and while holding savage. Freezing blaster nokts midair is more a matter of skill than power, also. I really don’t see ragdolling Rey as a sidious tier feat.

It was way more than 2/3 tons and more impressive than Maul's feat. See for yourself:

No Caption Provided

She was also lifting the rocks rather than dragging them. Anyways, you're talking about Maul who is really powerful and surely would take a Sidious tier character at least to ragdoll in the way that Snoke did to Rey (that is, overpowering her active defenses).

One other thing to consider: Vader wanted to use the carbonite chamber in ESB to bring Luke to the Emperor and even tried to do it during their duel. If he could have ragdolled Luke to achieve this goal he would have done so. And then we know Rey > ESB Luke, so that must mean Snoke's power is clearly greater than Vader's.

@richard96 said:

Still, nothing suggest that only a sidious tier force user can ragdoll a non force sensitive across the galaxy. It is just a loop argument. While it is obviously a top tier feat, you can’t prove it is a sidious tier feat only.

I think the fact that only Sidious has been shown to be able to ragdoll someone across the galaxy suggests that it takes great power to do so. I will concede that I can't prove it is a Sidious tier only feat, even though he is the only one that has done it before. Then again, Snoke's feat of Force bonding Rey and Kylo is unprecedented (meaning we don't even know if Sidious is capable of doing so, and you wouldn't be able to prove that he is), and I think thematically it makes sense that Snoke is close in power to Sidious.

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#60 Posted by TourneyMaster (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

I side with Maul as well. Yoda, Sidious, and Vader have WAAAAY better Force feats than Rey who is the ONLY benchmark for Snoke. A barely force train girl. Maul should resist enough to slice Snoke in half yet again.

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#61 Posted by RGR (408 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: What's the point in comparing Rey to Yoda, Sidious or Vader? It's not like Maul did to one of those what Snoke did to Rey.

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#62 Posted by Richard96 (5729 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr:

“It was way more than 2/3 tons and more impressive than Maul's feat. See for yourself:”

If you watch the screen when Poe and Finn are near to the rocks, you can see they are roughly of the size of their chests. Take 100 kg each rock, take 50 rocks, you have 5 tons. Dragging a starship which weights at least several tons is better, also while running and while holding savage.

“Anyways, you're talking about Maul who is really powerful and surely would take a Sidious tier character at least to ragdoll in the way that Snoke did to Rey (that is, overpowering her active defenses).”

This can be arguable, though dooku ragdolled RoTS Kenobi who is roughly on par with TCW maul, albeit it was less dominating than Snoke with Rey.

“One other thing to consider: Vader wanted to use the carbonite chamber in ESB to bring Luke to the Emperor and even tried to do it during their duel. If he could have ragdolled Luke to achieve this goal he would have done so. And then we know Rey > ESB Luke, so that must mean Snoke's power is clearly greater than Vader's.”

Vader was just toying and testing his son. It has been stated multiple times. Also, it was noted that if Vader would have gone really all out he would have stomped Luke.

“Then again, Snoke's feat of Force bonding Rey and Kylo is unprecedented (meaning we don't even know if Sidious is capable of doing so, and you wouldn't be able to prove that he is), and I think thematically it makes sense that Snoke is close in power to Sidious.”

Again, completely unquantifiable. Maybe it is just a matter of skill and concentration. We never saw yoda freezing a blaster bolt midair. Ren > Yoda?

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#63 Edited by RGR (408 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

If you watch the screen when Poe and Finn are near to the rocks, you can see they are roughly of the size of their chests. Take 100 kg each rock, take 50 rocks, you have 5 tons. Dragging a starship which weights at least several tons is better, also while running and while holding savage.

Dragging a weight is easier than lifting it though. For example, you can easily drag a sofa but lifting it from the ground all by yourself is hard. It's clear we will not agree on which feat is more impressive, but it doesn't really matter that much because Maul is very powerful and it would take someone of Sidious' caliber to completely dominate him with TK.

@richard96 said:

This can be arguable, though dooku ragdolled RoTS Kenobi who is roughly on par with TCW maul, albeit it was less dominating than Snoke with Rey.

Obi-Wan's defenses were down unlike Rey's. Dooku gripped him and throwed him against the railway, but I don't think he could have sustained any type of control over Obi-Wan's every move as Snoke did with Rey.

@richard96 said:

Vader was just toying and testing his son. It has been stated multiple times. Also, it was noted that if Vader would have gone really all out he would have stomped Luke.

I'm aware Vader would have stomped him, but could Vader dominate Luke with TK in Snoke fashion? He tried to use the carbon freezing chamber on Luke, so why not force him into it with the Force? Why not stop Luke from falling when he refused to join Vader after the "I am your father" revelation?

@richard96 said:

Again, completely unquantifiable. Maybe it is just a matter of skill and concentration. We never saw yoda freezing a blaster bolt midair. Ren > Yoda?

Note that I'm not arguing Snoke > Sidious. Rather, what I'm arguing is that there is no evidence that Sidious > Snoke. If Snoke's feats are not quantifiable for a comparison with Sidious', then Sidious' feats are also unquantifiable for a comparison with Snoke's. But since the two of them are the only Force users that have been shown to be capable of ragdolling someone across the galaxy and also the only ones that have been shown to be capable of dominating someone of Rey's power with TK, I believe (though I can't prove) that they are close to each other in power.

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#64 Edited by Richard96 (5729 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr:

“Obi-Wan's defenses were down unlike Rey's. Dooku gripped him and throwed him against the railway, but I don't think he could have sustained any type of control over Obi-Wan's every move as Snoke did with Rey.”

In legends maybe, but in canon there is nothing saying Kenobi’s defenses were lowered. Anyway, i agree that dooku could not dominate kenobi as snoke did with Rey.

“I'm aware Vader would have stomped him, but could Vader dominate Luke with TK in Snoke fashion?”

Yes, he certainly could, given a vader’s inferior in maul ragdolled a superior telekinetic than ESB Luke in Obi wan. Vader’s TK feats are vastly superior than those of ESB, and there is really nothing to support the idea ESB Luke can counter Vader’s TK.

“He tried to use the carbon freezing chamber on Luke, so why not force him into it with the Force?”

Cause he was just toying and testing him.

“Why not stop Luke from falling when he refused to join Vader after the "I am your father" revelation?”

Come on, that is just plot. You really want to argue that Vader can’t ragdoll a badly injured and falling ESB Luke?

“Note that I'm not arguing Snoke > Sidious.”

Yes, I understood that, lol.

“Rather, what I'm arguing is that there is no evidence that Sidious > Snoke. If Snoke's feats are not quantifiable for a comparison with Sidious', then Sidious' feats are also unquantifiable for a comparison with Snoke's.”

This is not true, one simple reason is that Sidious has scaling, and he is miles and miles above a guy like maul, who would be already a serious challenge for snoke.

“But since the two of them are the only Force users that have been shown to be capable of ragdolling someone across the galaxy”

Remember that sidious ragdolled dooku (that anyway had arguably his defenses lowered) and not a fodder non sensitive guy like hux. That is the really impressive feat. If sidious can ragdoll dooku, why an Obi wan tier shouldn’t be able to ragdoll a non force sensitive fodder?

“and also the only ones that have been shown to be capable of dominating someone of Rey's power with TK, I believe (though I can't prove) that they are close to each other in power.”

If an inferior of sidious in dooku ragdolled obi wan, that is likely superior to Rey, I don’t see why he can’t dominate a Rey tier force user.

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#65 Posted by RGR (408 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, I mostly disagree with you but you're entitled to your opinion and I don't think I can make a good enough argument to convince you, so I'll just nitpick a bit ;)

“Why not stop Luke from falling when he refused to join Vader after the "I am your father" revelation?”

Come on, that is just plot. You really want to argue that Vader can’t ragdoll a badly injured and falling ESB Luke?

I think Vader could probably slam him against a wall in a similar way Dooku or Maul did to Obi-Wan, but I don't think he can't keep full control of Luke's body if the latter is actively resisting, so he woudn't be able to lift Luke in that instance because Luke would not allow it.

“Rather, what I'm arguing is that there is no evidence that Sidious > Snoke. If Snoke's feats are not quantifiable for a comparison with Sidious', then Sidious' feats are also unquantifiable for a comparison with Snoke's.”

This is not true, one simple reason is that Sidious has scaling, and he is miles and miles above a guy like maul, who would be already a serious challenge for snoke.

Sidious has scaling from certain Force users, just as Snoke does from others, but the thing is there is not a clear line of scaling between PT characters and ST characters.

“But since the two of them are the only Force users that have been shown to be capable of ragdolling someone across the galaxy”

Remember that sidious ragdolled dooku (that anyway had arguably his defenses lowered) and not a fodder non sensitive guy like hux. That is the really impressive feat. If sidious can ragdoll dooku, why an Obi wan tier shouldn’t be able to ragdoll a non force sensitive fodder?

I don't think it's any more difficult to choke a non-resisting Force user than a non-sensitive. Then again, I respect your opinion to the contrary.

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#66 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@rgr:

“You're welcome to show me a more impressive TK feat than Rey's from anyone sub-Dooku level. She's also equal in power to a guy that freezes blaster bolts and knocks people unconscious with a wave of his hand.”

Those rocks were roughly as large as a human chest. They were dozens, but I don’t think it was more than 2/3 tons of stone. TCW maul did already better when he dragged down a starship, than weights at least several tons, while running and while holding savage. Freezing blaster nokts midair is more a matter of skill than power, also. I really don’t see ragdolling Rey as a sidious tier feat.

“Maybe Obi-Wan could ragdoll someone across the galaxy, but given that nothing suggests this is the case, please understand that this argument is not changing my position.”

Still, nothing suggest that only a sidious tier force user can ragdoll a non force sensitive across the galaxy. It is just a loop argument. While it is obviously a top tier feat, you can’t prove it is a sidious tier feat only.

We also know that a pre-prime Maul survived a rock slide that landed on him and covered him up. 2017 Marvel Darth Maul series. Some of the rocks were as big while some weren't, but he still had a butt-ton of rocks fall on him. The only point here is that I don't think that it matters if that feat is used in combat against him.

Also another point to be made is that a padawan moved a bunch of rocks as well, although granted, not as many. Still a lot.

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#67 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@rgr:

Again, completely unquantifiable. Maybe it is just a matter of skill and concentration. We never saw yoda freezing a blaster bolt midair. Ren > Yoda?

Just by chance, last night I read something that beautifully addresses what you're describing:

Just because a certain character displays a certain extreme degree of power in one instance doesn't imply that they will remotely possess the same scale of power in another, and that we can automatically scale another character from the higher end feat. Also, we cannot use the relative power levels for one author in the 1960s and apply it to another present day author, or vice versa. Again, one writer's canonicity cannot automatically be used to power-scale another's.

To illustrate, Marvel's executive editor Tom Brevoort, who is also in charge of writing the official handbooks for the company, and is likely the highest current authority regarding the company's internal continuity and power levels, had this to say regarding the topic:

Clicking on the last link, you're taking to Brevoort's blog post:

  • [QUESTION] I don't understand how the Beyonders could wipe out Celestial Hosts, Universal abstracts and the Living Tribunal without apparent effort, but then two of them dies fighting a team of in earth heroes?? How does that add up?Anonymous

    [ANSWER] If you throw kryptonite at Superman, he’s going to double over and collapse.

    If you throw kryptonite at Batman, he’s going to laugh at you and then beat the hell out of you.

    Does this mean that Batman is more powerful than Superman?

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#68 Edited by RGR (408 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: Yeah, you're absolutely right that Force users are more talented in some areas than others. For instance, Ezra Bridger has this kind of special empathy to all sorts of creatures, and Saesee Tiin is particularly good at TP. I also think the sports comparison is spot on and that logistics are not given enough credit in SW battles.

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#69 Posted by Richard96 (5729 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr:

“Okay, I mostly disagree with you but you're entitled to your opinion and I don't think I can make a good enough argument to convince you, so I'll just nitpick a bit ;)”

No problem :)

“I think Vader could probably slam him against a wall in a similar way Dooku or Maul did to Obi-Wan, but I don't think he can't keep full control of Luke's body if the latter is actively resisting, so he woudn't be able to lift Luke in that instance because Luke would not allow it.”

I know it is legends, but gethzerion, who is much weaker than Vader, completely force dominated a post ROTJ Luke, IIRC. As of canon, Vader has so better feats than ESB Luke that I think he can simply do whatever he wants with him, simply by scaling.

“Sidious has scaling from certain Force users, just as Snoke does from others, but the thing is there is not a clear line of scaling between PT characters and ST characters.”

Snoke doesn’t really have scaling over anyone, bar Ren and Rey.

“I don't think it's any more difficult to choke a non-resisting Force user than a non-sensitive. Then again, I respect your opinion to the contrary.”

It is not clear if dooku resisted or not. I am inclined to say he didn’t put his full effort at it just to avoid to enrage his master.

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#70 Posted by KingLouie (3284 posts) - - Show Bio

Supreme leader

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#71 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16495 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke.

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#72 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16495 posts) - - Show Bio

I also quite enjoy how people are desperately trying to lowball Rey's TLJ feats. As if she didn't make an entire cliff shake and start collapsing just by meditating near it, as if she didn't lift tens(if not hundreds) of boulders, some of which were three times the size of a human, as if she didn't telekinetically stalemate the heir apparent to Darth Vader.

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#73 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

What do you think about using the script from ROTJ? The scene where Vader throws Sidious down the shaft discusses Vader being very weak. In the novel, without using the word willpower, will power pretty much describes how Vader is able to push through his weakened state, which is described as being the weakest he's ever been. Without putting much thought into it, my first thought is that if we don't tally up his action to will power, then could we say that Vader was possibly stronger than or at least equal to Sidious' power? Vader was in horrible condition, but he still got up and just simply threw the Emperor to his death. Granted, Vader died as well, but the fact remains that even in an extremely weakened state, including the loss of one hand, Vader tanks through Sidious' most lethal lightning and then picks him up and tosses him aside like yesterday's trash.

I reckon it has been stated that he went into Oneness, its even mentioned in one of the FotJ books iirc. Aside from it being incredibly circumstantial, Vader and RotJ Luke should are more or less on the same tier and the latter was described as being "so overwhelmed" and "powerless" against The Emperor. And Sidious' willpower>Vader's.

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#74 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

I also quite enjoy how people are desperately trying to lowball Rey's TLJ feats. As if she didn't make an entire cliff shake and start collapsing just by meditating near it, as if she didn't lift tens(if not hundreds) of boulders, some of which were three times the size of a human, as if she didn't telekinetically stalemate the heir apparent to Darth Vader.

I'm not desperately anything. I think Rey is awesome. I don't think she is OP'd, a Mary Sue, or any of that stuff. If anything, I like her character more than Maul's, but not as much as Vader. I would never low-ball her. I just simply do not see the feats given, at least for Snoke, as being either enough to defeat Maul or able to be quantified. There is simply more info needed.

However, and back to Rey, just because I posted about her rock feat doesn't mean I am low-balling. I simply am saying that it isn't going to stop Maul.

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#75 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:
@redheathen said:

What do you think about using the script from ROTJ? The scene where Vader throws Sidious down the shaft discusses Vader being very weak. In the novel, without using the word willpower, will power pretty much describes how Vader is able to push through his weakened state, which is described as being the weakest he's ever been. Without putting much thought into it, my first thought is that if we don't tally up his action to will power, then could we say that Vader was possibly stronger than or at least equal to Sidious' power? Vader was in horrible condition, but he still got up and just simply threw the Emperor to his death. Granted, Vader died as well, but the fact remains that even in an extremely weakened state, including the loss of one hand, Vader tanks through Sidious' most lethal lightning and then picks him up and tosses him aside like yesterday's trash.

I reckon it has been stated that he went into Oneness, its even mentioned in one of the FotJ books iirc. Aside from it being incredibly circumstantial, Vader and RotJ Luke should are more or less on the same tier and the latter was described as being "so overwhelmed" and "powerless" against The Emperor. And Sidious' willpower>Vader's.

Ok and great, thanks for the reference. But, I'm not sure if I agree with your logic at the end there. Luke couldn't handle Sidious' lightning, which had him writhing in agony on the floor, and this was before Palps amped it up. Vader tanked that shit like the Galactic Boss that he is and sent that pruned old bitty straight into Compton.

Vader did that will being the weakest he had ever been, and with only one arm.

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#76 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16495 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: Wasn't specifically talking about you? It's just people keep arguing that the boulders she lifted in TLJ were small in both size and number when literally a single glance at the screen tells us differently. And people keep mentioning that as if it's the best flipping feat she has in TLJ, which is what annoys me.

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#77 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: Wasn't specifically talking about you? It's just people keep arguing that the boulders she lifted in TLJ were small in both size and number when literally a single glance at the screen tells us differently. And people keep mentioning that as if it's the best flipping feat she has in TLJ, which is what annoys me.

Thanks for the clarification, and I agree with you on both counts.

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#78 Edited by Insanity_ (105 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:
@insanity_ said:
@erkan12 said:

Vader, Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Kylo, Sasse Tiin, Agen Kolar, Dooku, Grievous, Luke, Mace Windu, just to name a few. The first three foderize Maul.

You sure you're following Star Wars?

I feel bad for adding you to the tags...

Read this and come back later;

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/erkan12/blog/darth-maul-respect-thread/129270/

I know most of Maul's feats. Your RT is one of the worst on ComicVine due to you taking his accolades and feats out of context to suit your argument. I mean, you think adding deleted scenes that are obviously not canon to show Maul can pin Sidious to a wall, even though in the episode he gets ragdolled by a toying Sidious with utter ease and only escaped from Sidious' grip because Palps allowed it, so please, stop with the nonsense. Maul is slightly above Dooku, but well below Sidious. Your boy is no match for Palpy.

You know nothing as you just hilariously claimed fodders like Saesee Tiin or Agen Kolar could win a fight against Maul, even when Filoni said that Maul's apprentice Savage puts up a better fight against Sidious than the Jedi Council did.

And Kylo? :)) .

Ahsoka? It has been already stated that Maul is superior to her.

Vader fodderizing Maul? Another nice joke... An objective source states that a fight between Maul and Vader would be close,

''IT'S A CLOSE CALL, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills'' ....

Source: Star Wars Comics UK Magazine 04 (2014)

I LOVE how you take Filoni's quote out of context to suit your argument. Savage DID put up a better fight than the Jedi council, but that's because Sidious was TOYING with Savage, compared to the council where he used a Dark Side confusion haze to make it easier to kill them. Would he do that if he was toying with them?

Kylo has been said to be one of the most powerful Force wielders in SW by JJ Abrahams, and gets scaling off his equal, Rey who can lift a mountains worth of rock. His skill with a lightsaber has also been implied to be second to Luke, so I doubt Kylo is getting stomped by Maul.

She can still beat him tho, which was what I was originally disputing, there are plenty of characters that can beat Maul.

That objective source? You only say it's objective coz it helps your argument which clearly contradadicts AEYNTK which you agree with which puts Vader > Sidious, the someone who stomped Maul while not trying. It was published in 2014 making it outdated and clearly not taken into account since LucasFilm made AEYNTK which obviously contradicts it. You are just desperate at this point. Vader made Kenobi lose hope of winning in seconds, when Maul has failed to gain the upper hand numerous times, let alone an upper hand as big as Vader's. Even worse considering Vader wasn't being as aggressive as usual out of fear of losing again.

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#79 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12 said:
@insanity_ said:
@erkan12 said:

Vader, Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Kylo, Sasse Tiin, Agen Kolar, Dooku, Grievous, Luke, Mace Windu, just to name a few. The first three foderize Maul.

You sure you're following Star Wars?

I feel bad for adding you to the tags...

Read this and come back later;

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/erkan12/blog/darth-maul-respect-thread/129270/

I know most of Maul's feats. Your RT is one of the worst on ComicVine due to you taking his accolades and feats out of context to suit your argument. I mean, you think adding deleted scenes that are obviously not canon to show Maul can pin Sidious to a wall, even though in the episode he gets ragdolled by a toying Sidious with utter ease and only escaped from Sidious' grip because Palps allowed it, so please, stop with the nonsense. Maul is slightly above Dooku, but well below Sidious. Your boy is no match for Palpy.

You know nothing as you just hilariously claimed fodders like Saesee Tiin or Agen Kolar could win a fight against Maul, even when Filoni said that Maul's apprentice Savage puts up a better fight against Sidious than the Jedi Council did.

And Kylo? :)) .

Ahsoka? It has been already stated that Maul is superior to her.

Vader fodderizing Maul? Another nice joke... An objective source states that a fight between Maul and Vader would be close,

''IT'S A CLOSE CALL, and these two Sith are well-matched in terms of fighting skills'' ....

Source: Star Wars Comics UK Magazine 04 (2014)

I LOVE how you take Filoni's quote out of context to suit your argument. Savage DID put up a better fight than the Jedi council, but that's because Sidious was TOYING with Savage, compared to the council where he used a Dark Side confusion haze to make it easier to kill them. Would he do that if he was toying with them?

Kylo has been said to be one of the most powerful Force wielders in SW by JJ Abrahams, and gets scaling off his equal, Rey who can lift a mountains worth of rock. His skill with a lightsaber has also been implied to be second to Luke, so I doubt Kylo is getting stomped by Maul.

She can still beat him tho, which was what I was originally disputing, there are plenty of characters that can beat Maul.

That objective source? You only say it's objective coz it helps your argument which clearly contradadicts AEYNTK which you agree with which puts Vader > Sidious, the someone who stomped him while not trying. It was published in 2014 making it outdated and clearly not taken into account since LucasFilm made AEYNTK which obviously contradicts it. You are just desperate at this point. Vader made Kenobi lose hope of winning in seconds, when Maul has failed to gain the upper hand numerous times, let alone an upper hand as big as Vader's. Even worse considering Vader was holding back out of fear of losing again.

The following question may seem like I am being argumentative, but they are genuine questions:

Would you please define "toying"?

Where can I read about Sidious using dark side confusion haze? Is it in the movie novelization?

Where can I read about the implication that Rey is second to Luke? Do you think that Luke could defeat Snoke in a saber-only duel? If so, by how much of a margin?

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#80 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio


Ok and great, thanks for the reference. But, I'm not sure if I agree with your logic at the end there. Luke couldn't handle Sidious' lightning, which had him writhing in agony on the floor, and this was before Palps amped it up. Vader tanked that shit like the Galactic Boss that he is and sent that pruned old bitty straight into Compton.

Vader did that will being the weakest he had ever been, and with only one arm.

Even the likes of Mace and Yoda were unable to even move against a weaker version of that lightning. Unless, of course, you consider a Vader who's "weaker than he'd ever been" is better than those two.

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#81 Posted by Turr (1149 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul, obviously. Snoke ragdolled two teens who both cant possibly be even compared to Maul. Thats not enough to force ragdoll Maul who has excellent feats all around. And pls spare me the preaching on how MaRey Sue and Emo Ren are actually secretly amazing. Kylo got tagged by a janitor stormtrooper in a fight and Rey didnt have a second of professional force or lightsaber training IN HER LIFE. Maul would one shot both of these noobs.

Snoke just gets blitzed and cut in half.

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#82 Edited by hurricanefunnel (2151 posts) - - Show Bio

maul stomps, however it's not a mismatch but may be a spite thread

the power and ability deficit b/t maul and snoke just too great in maul's favor

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#83 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, where’s that Maul picture from?

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#84 Posted by Erkan12 (8391 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, where’s that Maul picture from?

@erkan12 said:
@deutschkurzhaar said:

And why did you use such a crappy picture of maul lol. Should've took one from tpm

Because this is not TPM Maul, it's TCW / Solo Maul. I took the picture from Insider 185.

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#85 Edited by RGR (408 posts) - - Show Bio

@turr said:

And pls spare me the preaching on how MaRey Sue and Emo Ren are actually secretly amazing. Kylo got tagged by a janitor stormtrooper in a fight and Rey didnt have a second of professional force or lightsaber training IN HER LIFE.

You do realize Kylo had just been shot by Chewbacca before fighting Finn right? And that Finn was a top stormtrooper when it comes to melee weapons, yet Kylo still stomped him the moment he got serious? And that Rey accessed Kylo's training during the interrogation scene in TFA? And that it's been stated multiple times that her training with her quarterstaff translates well into lightsaber fighting? And that some of her TK feats are comparable to what Maul has demonstrated?

Of course you do, that's why you call her MaRey Sue, because she's much more powerful than you would like her to be.

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#86 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3854 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr: Tbh I wouldn't bother. @turr is a notorious Sequel Trilogy lowballer who repeatedly spews the same bullshit despite the context being pointed out to him in multiple threads.

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#87 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen said:

Ok and great, thanks for the reference. But, I'm not sure if I agree with your logic at the end there. Luke couldn't handle Sidious' lightning, which had him writhing in agony on the floor, and this was before Palps amped it up. Vader tanked that shit like the Galactic Boss that he is and sent that pruned old bitty straight into Compton.

Vader did that will being the weakest he had ever been, and with only one arm.

Even the likes of Mace and Yoda were unable to even move against a weaker version of that lightning. Unless, of course, you consider a Vader who's "weaker than he'd ever been" is better than those two.

Do you think that the version Mace received was weaker? We saw his skeleton, similar to Vader in ROTJ.

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#88 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: I consider it weaker because RotJ Sidious>RotS Sidious

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#89 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr said:
@turr said:

And pls spare me the preaching on how MaRey Sue and Emo Ren are actually secretly amazing. Kylo got tagged by a janitor stormtrooper in a fight and Rey didnt have a second of professional force or lightsaber training IN HER LIFE.

You do realize Kylo had just been shot by Chewbacca before fighting Finn right? And that Finn was a top stormtrooper when it comes to melee weapons, yet Kylo still stomped him the moment he got serious? And that Rey accessed Kylo's training during the interrogation scene in TFA? And that it's been stated multiple times that her training with her quarterstaff translates well into lightsaber fighting? And that some of her TK feats are comparable to what Maul has demonstrated?

Of course you do, that's why you call her MaRey Sue, because she's much more powerful than you would like her to be.

For @turr

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@redheathen: I consider it weaker because RotJ Sidious>RotS Sidious

ROTS lightning on Windu is at least powerful enough to show Windu's skeleton. I'm not aware of any other way to compare the strength of the lightning actually used in both movies. I don't think that one version of Sidious being more powerful than the other necessarily indicates the strength of lightning used. I am not trying to call you out. I'm just stating what seems to me to be reasonable. However, I most certainly am not the most logical person in the world. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

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#90 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@redheathen: I consider it weaker because RotJ Sidious>RotS Sidious

ROTS lightning on Windu is at least powerful enough to show Windu's skeleton. I'm not aware of any other way to compare the strength of the lightning actually used in both movies. I don't think that one version of Sidious being more powerful than the other necessarily indicates the strength of lightning used. I am not trying to call you out. I'm just stating what seems to me to be reasonable. However, I most certainly am not the most logical person in the world. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

And ROTJ Sidious' lightning was powerful enough to show Anakin's skeleton even through the armor. If ROTJ Sheev is more powerful than ROTS Sheev, then the logically speaking, the former produces more potent lightning.

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#91 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:
@redheathen said:
@dawn_of_ages said:

@redheathen: I consider it weaker because RotJ Sidious>RotS Sidious

ROTS lightning on Windu is at least powerful enough to show Windu's skeleton. I'm not aware of any other way to compare the strength of the lightning actually used in both movies. I don't think that one version of Sidious being more powerful than the other necessarily indicates the strength of lightning used. I am not trying to call you out. I'm just stating what seems to me to be reasonable. However, I most certainly am not the most logical person in the world. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

And ROTJ Sidious' lightning was powerful enough to show Anakin's skeleton even through the armor. If ROTJ Sheev is more powerful than ROTS Sheev, then the logically speaking, the former produces more potent lightning.

i posted the other day discussing the fact that we could see vader's skeleton thru his armor and the fact that his armor protects him in space and also somewhat protects against lightsaber strikes. this still doesn't tell us how much power sidious used in either scene. both times, his lightning was very strong, but we can't say that rotj sidious > rots sidious, and therefore the lightning rotj sidious used on vader > the lightning used on rots windu. yes, he is capable of producing more powerful lightning (assumption), but that doesn't mean he used more powerful lightning.

i mean at what point does it even matter if it is more powerful because at some point, dead is dead, and baked is baked no matter what temp you set the oven to.

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#92 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: this still doesn't tell us how much power sidious used in either scene.

he is capable of producing more powerful lightning (assumption), but that doesn't mean he used more powerful lightning.

There's little reason for him not use the full potency of his lightning when he's trying to save himself. It's confirmed that Anakin took on the "full force" of The Emperor's lightning.

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Bear in mind that "force" is used as a synonym for "power" and "strength".

we can't say that rotj sidious > rots sidious

We can. Aside from the fact that we can infer it due to him having access to more knowledge and draining Byss, multiple quotes confirm it.

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#93 Posted by deactivated-5c359ed39a233 (290 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul wins

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#94 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: this still doesn't tell us how much power sidious used in either scene.

he is capable of producing more powerful lightning (assumption), but that doesn't mean he used more powerful lightning.

There's little reason for him not use the full potency of his lightning when he's trying to save himself. It's confirmed that Anakin took on the "full force" of The Emperor's lightning.

No Caption Provided

Bear in mind that "force" is used as a synonym for "power" and "strength".

we can't say that rotj sidious > rots sidious

We can. Aside from the fact that we can infer it due to him having access to more knowledge and draining Byss, multiple quotes confirm it.

You forgot the "and therefore". i was saying that we cannot say rotj sidious > rots sidious AND THEREFORE rotj sidious USED lightning > rots lightning.

however, now you supplied that quote, and it's good enough for me. thanks for that. i didn't see it before if you posted it. what is that from?

btw, the gif had nothing to do with my answer. i made it a long time ago on a font generator and forgot i had it, but i remembered it when posting the comment. i added it just for you if you are interested in it.

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#95 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: Its from the endnotes of Dark Empire's first issue.

btw, the gif had nothing to do with my answer. i made it a long time ago on a font generator and forgot i had it, but i remembered it when posting the comment. i added it just for you if you are interested in it.

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#96 Edited by Darkthunder (1983 posts) - - Show Bio

Snoke disarms maul

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#97 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Then Maul activates his lightsaber as Snoke narrates his own death once more

jk

Snoke wins via TK.

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#98 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio

Then Maul activates his lightsaber as Snoke narrates his own death once more

👍

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#99 Posted by TheEllimist (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, Maul getting buried by Padawans.

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#100 Posted by In-sidiousvader (2532 posts) - - Show Bio

Erkans Hard on for maul makes him create unfair threads? Maul LOLSTOMPS... Hard... makes snoke his new apprentice... then sends him and Kylo off to die as distraction fodder