Mace and Dooku are really close to each other- Dooku is not indisputably above Maul, Mace is not indisputably above Maul.
With Mace and Maul there is little difference in their styles,
Actually, there is. Maul uses Juyo, Mace uses Vaapad. Juyo is attack attack attack without losing control. Vaapad is aggressive, but less aggressive than Juyo- it channels one's inner darkness as a weapon of the light, and uses the opponent's Dark Side energy against them. And Mace has the stylistic edge over Maul, given how Mace has encyclopedic knowledge of Juyo (due to him creating a new variant of the style) while Maul has no real knowledge on Vaapad because it was only created by Mace some decades ago, and it wouldn't come in textbooks/Sidious would have no knowledge on it.
The move set is distinct, that's why Grievous who already knows Juyo had to analyze it, before he could replicate it, but there're both similar in principle. Mace's style isn't too far off from what you described as Juyo: Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.
source Power of the Jedi Sourcebook
I agree however that Mace would have a slight style edge for your reasons mentioned. Is there any source that states Vaapad is less aggressive than Juyo? Because the source I underlined wouldn't suggest that.
so we can really only measure skill, and in that case Mace is superior.
Mace is superior, yes, but by a little bit.
But as I've been pointing out throughout this thread, a little is still a meaningful difference. Dooku has been described as almost equal to Yoda, yet Yoda wiped the floor with him(okay I'm exaggerating but he still got beaten very thoroughly.)
Many sources, at least early Legends sources, put Dooku at the same skill level as Mace,
Yes, there are sources that say Mace=Dooku and that Dooku has beaten Mace, but Dooku's victories over Mace were pre-TPM, meaning Mace was pre-prime.
People who use that argument fail to consider that Dooku was pre-prime as well. Jedi Master Dooku was confirmed to have grown more powerful AND skillful when he became a Sith Lord. Whereas we have no information on Mace becoming significantly more powerful; it's certainly reasonable that he's grown through regular training and experience, but then that would also apply to Dooku, and that's not even counting the gains he would get from using the Darkside which is an easier path than the Light.
There's also this:
Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
The Official Starships & Veichles Collection #48
A perfectly valid source, but there are others that contradict that. Also this quote is only referring to Dooku in the context of a Jedi Master, not when he became more powerful as a Sith. Mace and Yoda on the other hand are most likely being described as they are currently as they have never left the Jedi order. It makes since for ROTS Mace to be > Jedi Master Dooku, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of them being equals at the time of Dooku's tenure. Even if Mace was better at the time, it only reinforces my other point about Dooku's Makashi being effective against Form VII users; Dooku beat a(supposedly) more skilled Mace because he had a stylistic edge:
Source: Insider #113
Dooku carried a lightsaber with a curved handle and practiced an elegant fencing style; he could outclass nearly any opponent except for Yoda.
Source: Insider: Lords of the Sith
"Nearly" can probably safely exclude Mace Windu who was a peer, but Yoda was listed by name, whereas Mace wasn't. So at least by the time of AoTC Yoda is Dooku's only superior.
[Dooku's] skill with a lightsaber is matched only by Master Yoda.
Source: Force Collection
This one is almost certainly inaccurate. Mace should be his equal with a blade according to other statements. But it is consistent with Yoda being Dooku's only true superior amongst the Order.
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
This was after Yoda's first duel with Tyranus, so he should know how he stacks up with the current Mace.
Based on Gillard's ranking and these two sources, we can make out that Mace>Dooku by a small margin- it's negligble, though.
As much as I admire the man, Nick Gillards statements are not canon. He's not the creator, he's not a writer. Certainly not as valid as the sources above. I don't completely disagree with his placements, but he's not an authoritarian on this matter. Even if his opinion was, it should only apply to a Movie only universe; his placement of Fisto as a tier 7 certainly doesn't match up with his EU feats. Fisto has speedblitz Mangaguards(in a source where they were still formidable threats) he should be at least an 8 by his scaling system(in fact before, most people on this site DID place him in the 8's). That aside I'm have no issue putting Movie only Mace above Movie Dooku. Luca's himself stated you had to be either Mace or Yoda, to compete with the Emperor and Vaapad doesn't exist in the Movie Only universe as far as I'm aware; Mace in those contexts disarmed him through sheer skill not through superconducting loop or Shatterpoint. EU Dooku on the other hand is equal to EU Mace.
One can make an argument that Maul has a stylistic and physical edge in Dooku's case,
Yes- hence why Dooku, who is more skilled than Maul, has so much grief/loses so much rounds against Maul.
but my stance is that Dooku, based on his performance against similar fighters,
Just because Dooku has fought Anakin to a standstill?
No based his defeats of Sora Bulq, General Grievous, and *drumroll* Mace Windu. All of them are very strong and similarly aggressive Form VII users(yes I know Grievous isn't primarily a Form VII user, but it is in his arsenal and his overall fighting style, attacking in randomized angles, non stop aggression, is very similar in principle). Your points regarding Anakin are largely irrelevant to my argument as he isn't a Form VII user and fights differently from Maul, but I'll address some of it.
First of all, Maul is easily on Anakin's level in terms of strength, and he was losing to Anakin in ROTS, prior to the rage amp. Strength being one of the main factors:
It's highly contestable that Maul could strain Dooku to that extent. Dooku had no issue deflecting Grievous's strikes and by Windu's admission they "were as forceful as any he had ever had to counter" - LoE If we were to combined Canon and Legends this would mean that, as per SoD and Mace's brief bout with Maul, Grievous's strikes are at least as strong as Maul's. Anakin can tax Dooku like that, Grievous can't and Maul likely can't either.
And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been, was only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade, driving straight for Dooku's heart. Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.
So Obi Wan and Anakin coordinate a strike a for Dooku's heart, but Dooku dodges it? How does this speak badly for Dooku?
(...)
- Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker, who had again come out of nowhere and now carved the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor.
Yes Dooku used a reverse ankle sweep on Obi Wan and almost gets his foot cut off by Skywalker, but he saves himself again. So what? Dooku gets dumped onto the floor because the tables cut in half. Again so what?
(...)
Dooku's breath went short and hard; he no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes, but only to guide them away. He could not meet Skywalker's strength. Not only did the boy wield endless reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing; and only then did Dooku understand that he had been suckered.
Yep good for Anakin. Doesn't mean Maul can replicate that. Already addressed Maul's strength in relation to Dooku's.
(...)
His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
Yet most of the time Dooku is capable of just that. On Oba Diah Dooku had no issue meeting Anakin's strikes; there's even a point towards the end where Dooku is continuously driving Anakin back even whilst Obi Wan harassed his flank. And Dooku has handled the kinetic power of Form VII users before.
(...)
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he used to throw Kenboi across the room; each block aged him a decace.
Revenge of the Sith novel
Already addressed
Anakin's strength was working rather fine- and Maul is at the very least equal to Anakin in strength, no matter what people say.
He's probably at the very most equal Grievous in strength, as per Windu's statements.
And one misstep in his fight against Savage Opress nearly cost the Count his life:
An inconsistency if nothing else. Shootingnova suggests it was more likely a TK blast that sent him flying. Dooku was meeting his strength just fine earlier(yeah he had more training, but his strength isn't changed only his skill). Savage has failed to floor Ventress even with leverage and Dooku's overpowered Ventress in blade-locks.
To be fair even Canon Dooku has decent strength feats.
Yup, but Maul's are still superior.
You were saying earlier how Legends disregards the age handicap, which is why I brought it up. It had nothing to do with his strength in relation to Mauls.
Whenever Anakin's not enraged Dooku has no difficulty meeting his Djem So head-to-head,
The not meeting Djem So head-to-head was prior to the rage amp.
I suppose the ROTS novel is technically canon, though it's more inline with Legends continuity. I was mainly referring to TCW canon. It's worth noting that in no other iteration of ROTS did Anakin tax Dooku with his strength until the rage amp. Dooku was either equal or controlling the fight the entire time up to that point.
In TCW, Anakin has nearly killed Dooku with his strength:
And Anakin has a "vast power growth" from TCW S5 to ROTS.
Anakin was enraged. That's the whole point of this duel. Look at Anakin's face, look at Palpatine's face. If he wasn't it's inconsistent, because two seasons later on Oba Diah his Djem So fails to make any headway against the Count.
These bumps are completely unnecessary. We can very easily compare them based on their performances vs the same/similar characters.
Dueling Ability
-Maul has been outmatched under favorable circumstances by tcw Kenobi
-Dooku Outclassed a superior season 6 kenobi while dealing with TCW anakin and was superior to ROTS Kenobi despite dealing with ROTS Anakin
-An enraged Maul lasted about 20 seconds vs sidious when sids was gradually ramping up his speed(aka he wasn't going all out) and was disarmed. Sidious is explicitly stated to completely outclass maul and is "toying" with the brothers
-Dooku, without any rage amps, held his own vs yoda(sidious's virtual equal) who wasn't trying to kill him but was fighting at full speed for about almost 40 seconds and could have held out longer. Dooku is explicitly stated to be "almost equal" with yoda and indicated to have near parity by multiple sources at least blade wise.
-Additionally, Dooku held his own vs a yoda/sids level opponent in anakin despite also having to deal with Prime Kenobi despite anakin having a form advantage.
-Maul fought evenly in brief inconclusive fights vs grevious, one of which took place on the nexus of dathomir which arguably would boost maul
-Dooku is clearly above grievous with grievous only being able to momentarily press him
Force Use
-Maul has circumstantially dominated TCW Kenobi who had almost a year to grow and numerous emotional and physical confrontations to grow from between TCW and ROTS
-Dooku outright ragdolled A beginning of ROTS Kenobi while kicking a yoda/sids level dooku several feet
-Maul and his brother were simultaneously stomped force wise by sidious. Dooku was beyond yoda's ability to dominate(yoda is a sidious level force user) outright dominate him
I'm not seeing whats arguable here. Dooku's just better.
Them being in the same tier in gillard's system means nothing as it's noted there is a "Massive difference" in between tiers
Dooku, every time. Make this rebels Maul and there's actual discussion value
Sorry for the late reply, but I've been having quite some stuff to do, in and out of this site.
said:
The move set is distinct,
Exactly! That strengthens my point. Mace surely knows Juyo's moves, given that he made a variant of the form, while Maul can only partially recognize Vaapad. Vaapad's counter to the dark side is also useful.
Mace's style isn't too far off from what you described as Juyo:
They follow mainly the same principles, but they are different. Two variants of a form. Like Shien/Djem So.
Is there any source that states Vaapad is less aggressive than Juyo?
Not that I can name from the top of my head, but it makes sense- their move set is distinct, Vaapad isn't too aggressive (it didn't really seem that aggressive in Dooku vs Windu on Boz Pity) and given that it's a Jedi form, it wouldn't be that aggressive, given that Juyo was banned from Jedi studies for that very reason.
But as I've been pointing out throughout this thread, a little is still a meaningful difference.
Of course, the dude slightly above the other will beat the latter- but after a grueling fight. And honestly, Mace vs Dooku is much slower than Maul vs Grievous, and Mace vs Maul is slower than Dooku vs Grievous.
Dooku has been described as almost equal to Yoda,
That was about the Geonosis fight, in which Yoda was holding back. Dooku is very close to a holding back Yoda.
yet Yoda wiped the floor with him(okay I'm exaggerating but he still got beaten very thoroughly.)
Yes, because the difference between them isn't little. Full out Yoda is solidly, convincingly and definitely above Count, and capable of winning every time:
Yoda's factually one tier ahead of Dooku.
In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.
Theforce.net
Dooku and Maul are both eight, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves.
Nick Gillard
And he has better Force feats. Also, Yoda contended with Sidious, who has outright dominated the Count:
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People who use that argument fail to consider that Dooku was pre-prime as well.
Yes, but as a Sith Lord, Dooku only focused on power. His skills did not change.
Jedi Master Dooku was confirmed to have grown more powerful
True.
AND skillful
Nope.
A perfectly valid source, but there are others that contradict that.
Not really, given Windu was pre-prime when he lost to Dooku, moreso than the Count.
Also this quote is only referring to Dooku in the context of a Jedi Master,
This makes no difference, given how Jedi Master Dooku is not below Darth Tyranus in skill, at least for any noticeable or significant or even relevant margin.
not when he became more powerful as a Sith.
Again, powerful, not skilled.
As much as I admire the man, Nick Gillards statements are not canon.
YES THEY ARE. HE IS THE CREATOR/CHOREOGRAPHER OF MODERN LIGHTSABER FIGHTING, HE'S THE ONE WITH AUTHORITY IN REGARDS TO DUELING.
He's not the creator,
Of proper saber fighting? YES HE IS. And he's the tiering guy- the choreographer- the expert- the saber department boss.
Certainly not as valid as the sources above.
LOL. Gillard is at the very least as valid, if not moreso than those sources.
but he's not an authoritarian on this matter.
Not an authoritarian? HE'S THE GODDAMN BOSS OF DUELING, THE CHOREOGRAPHER, THE EXPERT FOR GOD'S SAKE! HE IS MORE AUTHORITARIAN THAN YOUR SOURCES IN TERMS OF DUELING!
Even if his opinion was, it should only apply to a Movie only universe;
Uhh... no. Dude's the master of the forms, and of duels; other sources take inspiration in him.
his placement of Fisto as a tier 7 certainly doesn't match up with his EU feats.
Yes it does. A pre prime Ventress beat Kit Fisto solidly:
Fisto has speedblitz Mangaguards
I hardly called that a speedblitz, because Grievous and Mace had already clashed a few times, and Kit had already dodged multiple blows from the guards. Also, they barely clashed, it was Fisto dodging, then cutting off limbs, and the MagnaGuards being BFR'd by the wind.
in fact before, most people on this site DID place him in the 8's
CV users<<<<<Nick Gillard.
No based his defeats of Sora Bulq,
Whose strength is not close to matching either that of Maul's or Anakin's.
General Grievous,
Whose style is based on speed, not strength.
All of them are very strong and similarly aggressive Form VII users
Mace wasn't a perfect master of Vaapad at the time, Bulq lacks the physical feats, and Grievous definitely isn't primarily a Form VII user.
Your points regarding Anakin are largely irrelevant
Nope. His style, like Juyo, is aggressive and strength-based.
It's highly contestable that Maul could strain Dooku to that extent.
I'd say it really isn't. Maul has the strength feats to do so, and if Anakin did it, I don't see any reason for Maul not to do it.
Dooku had no issue deflecting Grievous's strikes
As I have repeatedly pointed out, Grievous's style IS NOT STRENGTH BASED.
Dooku being Grievous' mentor has also proved to be a very valuable asset. Also, Dooku has been strained against Grievous.
Maul likely can't either.
He can. Not only is his style aggressive and strength based, he has the strength feats to do it.
So Obi Wan and Anakin coordinate a strike a for Dooku's heart, but Dooku dodges it?
Obi-Wan dodged, and Anakin came in, too fast for Dooku to percieve. There- Anakin is at least as fast as Dooku. Then Dooku desperatly dodges, and Anakin still comes milimeters from landing a hit. This proves that Anakin is at least =Dooku, and nearly killed him.
Yes Dooku used a reverse ankle sweep on Obi Wan and almost gets his foot cut off by Skywalker, but he saves himself again.
He was desperate and horribly strained once again, and got floored. Anakin got an advantage.
Doesn't mean Maul can replicate that.
He can, 'cause he has the strength feats, style advantage and Anakin, who's at the very best equal to Maul in strength, did it.
Yet most of the time Dooku is capable of just that.
In TCW, yes; but ROTS Anakin is vastly more powerful and better than TCW Anakin, per Starwars.com.
And Dooku has handled the kinetic power of Form VII users before.
Addressed and debunked.
An inconsistency if nothing else.
No, it was a misstep by Dooku. But given that Maul>Savage, Maul might get Dooku into a similar position-
Shootingnova suggests it was more likely a TK blast that sent him flying.
Savage had both his hands on the saber. It wasn't. Also, Shootingnova thinks Anakin can pummel Maul in strength, and that Dooku is equal to Maul in strength or something like that. Maul's level of strength is one of the few things Nova is wrong about.
It's worth noting that in no other iteration of ROTS did Anakin tax Dooku with his strength until the rage amp.
Anakin was seriously taxing Dooku and beating him before the amp- with the amp, Dooku was absolutely and utterly dominated.
Dooku was either equal or controlling the fight
LOL no. Anakin was winning. Anakin>Dooku by ROTS.
Anakin was enraged.
That's TCW Anakin; TCW Maul is considerably stronger than TCW Anakin.
If you want to say Dooku wins, fine, but don't build your case around ABC Logic.
Its not abc logic, I've considered the context as well, the problem is that in the numerous comparisons here, the circumstances have mostly favored maul while mostly disfavoring dooku.
Sidious>Yoda
Yea, marginally. They're still near equals and on the same level which is more than sufficient for my comparison.
Maul>Kenobi, BTW.
In your opinion. There's a far stronger argument for Kenobi being>maul than anyone present for kenobi against dooku or maul against Dooku. And it's inarguable that dooku has done much better vs better versions of kenobi than maul has.
Sorry for the late reply, but I've had a lot to do.
said:
There isn't anakin because those quotes were referring to a pre rots period .
Oh, OK, it was talking about AOTC...
Still, AOTC Sidious, Yoda, and Talzin could beat Dooku in a fight. I think it's also safe to say Mace could at least stalemate the Count.
Before rots anakin is still an inferior to Dooku.
A lot before ROTS, yes. But by 20 BBY, Anakin is a challenge:
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He withstands the Count's TK barrage, and then floors ol' Dooku, who nearly dies and has to resort to catching Ani off guard with Lightning to survive.
By Dark Disciple, five months before ROTS, Dooku and Anakin stalemate, and both combatants had the advantage on numerous occasions, indicating they were complete and utter equals:
Skywalker, however, wasted no time in banter. He leapt at once for Dooku. Blue and red lightsabers clashed and sizzled. The droids had begun firing, and Kenobi batted the bolts back with practiced ease, doing his best to angle the shots so they returned to the droid that fired them.
Ventress paid neither Dooku nor the battle droids any heed. She vaulted down to the third, lowest level. Still crouching, she thrust out both hands, Force-grabbead a droid in each one, flung them behind her. Both droids hurtled toward the lightsaber combatants. Dooku glanced up and sprang down to the second level.
Anakin followed him. Two droids approached Kenobi, firing at him simultaneously. The Jedi Master leapt upward, clinging briefly toward the ceiling as the droids realized, too late, that they were now firing at each other.
"He's not here!" Ventress shouted over her shoulder to Obi-Wan. She sliced the head off one battle droid, Force-threw another against the bulkhead. Six remained.
"Get back up here and cover me!" Kenobi shouted, fighting his way over to one of the consoles on the first level. Ventress leapt across the bridge and positioned herself between Kenobi, who was checking the ship's computer in an attempt to locate Vos, and the droids who were firing on him. She spared a glance for Dooku, one level down.
The fight between him and Anakin was close and constantly shifting. Ventress felt a brief flash of amusement as she realized that for the first time, she was actually rooting for Skywalker. Dooku made claws of his hands, and Force lightning crackled in the space between him and Anakin. Skywalker got his lightsaber up and held his own, slitting his eyes against the blue glare and flying sparks.
Still sending Force lightning with one hand, Dooku reached out with the other. A dismembered droid torso shot up in the air, hovered there, and then Dooku flung it at Anakin. The Jedi leapt down to the third level, and the count followed him. With their master otherwise occupied on the other side of the bridge, the remaining droids opened fire freely. Dozens of bolts streaked toward Ventress and Kenobi. Calmly, Ventress batted some back with her lightsaber; the others she simply redirected using the Force. Three more droids fell, twitching and sparking.
"I've got him!" Kenobi shouted to be heard over the noise of combat. "Ventress, he's not on the bridge because he's in the brig! He's still a captive! Do you realize what this means? There is no 'Admiral Enigma.' Dooku's been using Vos as a tool to lower the Jedi morale!"
Ventress was flooded by joy so intense that she almost couldn't breathe. Renewed energy filled her and she reached out, grabbed a protesting droid in the Force, and smashed him down. "You two go on!" called Anakin. He dodged a strike from Dooku's red lightsaber that whizzed past the top of his head and brought his own blade up for a counterstrike.
"I'll take care of him! Insolent whelp," snapped Dooku, parrying Skywalker's strike. Together Ventress and Kenobi cut down the remaining droids. Debris toppled everywhere, legs and arms, heads and parts of torsos. When they reached the door and raced through it, Ventress took a moment to pierce the controls with her lightsaber.
"Anakin's still in there," Kenobi said.
"So is Dooku," she retorted.
"And this way, he can't summon droids to improve his odds."
"Excellent point," Kenobi conceded. "The brig is-"
"On the level belows us," Ventress said. "Come on!"
Dark Disciple
Anakin deflects Dooku's Lightning, and even tries to cheat by throwing a droid at him, which fails. Then an Anakin who was not giving his full attention to the fight (given that he was talking to Kenobi and Ventress) dodged a strike from Dooku. And we know that Anakin's growth in the last months of the Clone Wars is rapid.
mace= Dooku .
Highly debatable. Honestly, there are sources claiming Mace has eclipsed Dooku as a swordmaster, and Nick Gillard's ranking paints him as superior.
Rots Jedi anakin = Dooku .
Yeah no. ROTS Anakin>Dooku. An inferior version of him has stalemated the Count, and a vastly inferior version of him gave the Count serious grief and was arguably winning. In the novel, Kenobi+Anakin fought like they did in AOTC, and only used their AOTC skill levels- yet Dooku was already tiring. When they finally went all-out, Dooku was desperate, and Anakin was winning:
Anakin nearly stabs Dooku in the heart, and only a very desperate last-ditch manuever saved the Count.
And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been, was only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade, driving straight for Dooku's heart. Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.
Revenge of the Sith novel
Anakin nearly cuts off Dooku's foot, and then floors the Sith Lord.
Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker, who had again come out of nowhere and now carved the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor.
Revenge of the Sith novel
Dooku couldn't even parry Anakin's strikes.
Dooku's breath went short and hard; he no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes, but only to guide them away. He could not meet Skywalker's strength.
Revenge of the Sith novel
Then Dooku ragdolls Kenobi, of course. Then, before the rage amp...
Dooku's Makashi cannot meet Anakin's Djem So head-to-head.
His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
Revenge of the Sith novel
Dooku then has more than difficulty parrying Skywalker's strikes, and parrying a strike from Ani cost more power than ragdolling Kenobi, which is significant given how Kenobi is powerful. The fight, like this, would not have continued for long.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
Revenge of the Sith novel
Of course, Dooku's Dun Moch makes Skywalker unstable, but Dooku is absolutely dominated and schooled and butchered when Anakin enters "the Zone."
Dooku is only marginally superior to windu in the force in canon, ok, but in legends the count has better feats
Slightly better feats.
the two I have already mentioned to you : the collapse of the giant bridge
Which was not nearly as impressive as you make it out to be; Dooku collapsed/destroyed the pipe holding the bridge. With the bridge's only support down, of course it fell. But ripping through piping isn't any stellar Yoda/Windu level feat, given that a pre-prime Ventress has done it:
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Windu also collapsed a bridge, but not by taking out its support- he collapsed it by literally making it crumble. There are better feats for Dooku.
And damn , the gillard quote is pretty clear :
Yes, it explicitly states that they are on the same tier.
The huge difference on the numbers doesn't mean Maul+Dooku have a huge difference between them.
he said Dooku and maul are both 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves :
And you're trying to use that to prove Dooku>>Maul, but I could easily turn it against you and make it set your argument aflame. Mace is eight and a near-nine, while Dooku is an eight but not near nine. Maul is an eight but not near nine. By this logic, the difference between Mace and Dooku is huge, bigger than Maul and Dooku. Yet you claim Mace and Dooku are equals.
Stop twisting the Gillard quote, Mace/Maul/Dooku are all very close to each other.
it is clear and obvious from the context that he was using Dooku and maul to show that difference.
Maul could be the dude above, and you're denying that possibility. Dooku is not vastly above Maul, saying that is obvious Dooku wanking. But from a person that claims Dooku is near equal to Yoda, one of the funniest claims (and obviously false, BTW) I have ever seen, I am not surprised.
and obviously, for feats and accolades , the guy above is Dooku
Obviously? That's highly debatable; but obvious? It could as easily be Maul then it could be Dooku; I have also turned your logic against you.
Maul isn't taking a majority over the count, even in canon.
Yes, he is, given that Dooku's best feats are gone, while Maul's aren't. And with Dooku's main edge taken away from him, this becomes even better for Maul.
Not to mention the count is more powerful in the force :
By a medium/small margin, especially TK. But I admit IT IS the game-changer.
FIND ME A QUOTE SAYING YODA HELD BACK AGAINST DOOKU ON GEONOSIS.
There is no direct quote for Geonosis, but there is overall. In Dark Rendezvous, Yoda states he does not wish to hurt Dooku before the fight.
Now, by the timeframe of Dark Rendezvous, Dooku has done MUCH more damage to the Jedi than he did on Geonosis- there would be no reason for Yoda to love Dooku by Dark Rendezvous but not loving him on Geonosis. Logic- common sense.
And even while not going full out on Dooku, the Count was defeated rather solidly:
Here, Yoda effortlessly parries Dooku's blows, and the Count begins to falter. The Count is only not put at Yoda's mercy because he calls the second blade to him- a blade that would not be there in a fair fight. That circumstance proves VITAL, given how Dooku is disarmed soon after:
The comic later says outright that Dooku is no match for Yoda:
Realizing he is no match for Yoda, Count Dooku makes for his ship.
In the movie, as we know, the fight lasted twenty-nine seconds- which is very little for a saber duel.
In the novel, Yoda effortlessly dodges, parries or turns Dooku's blows aside, then drives the Count back. The Count heavily draws on his rage (arguably getting something akin to a rage amp) yet he was still driven back.
Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to life. Dooku gave a crisp salute, igniting his own red blade, but then, formalities over, he leapt at Yoda, a sudden and devastating thrust. But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside. Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide. It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Not fast enough.
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through. Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two steps back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right. Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku stabbed up high, turning the angle of his lightsaber in anticipation that Yoda would dodge left. But Yoda, as if in complete anticipation of the movement, veered neither left nor right, but rather dropped to the ground. The Count had already retracted the missed thrust, and began a second stab, this time down low, but Yoda had anticipated that, too, and went right back up behind the stabbing blade. A sudden stab by Yoda had Dooku quick-stepping back even more off-balance, for the first time, and then Yoda flew away, up and back. The furious Dooku pursued, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack. Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.
"Anakin!" Obi-Wan cried. He grabbed at the plummeting crane with the Force, and Anakin, startled awake, did so, as well. Even working together, they hadn't the strength left to stop its crushing descent.
But Yoda did.
Yoda grabbed the crane and held it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship.
Dooku's thrusts and stabs were all tossed harmlessly aside by Yoda, who barely moved. Then Yoda forced Dooku back. Dooku gets a rage amp, given that his speed and tempo increased by a lot, yet this was insufficient, and Yoda drove back Dooku, who was absolutely desperate.
The Fact File says that a holding back Yoda was only slightly better than Dooku- but even while holding back, Yoda beat Dooku rather thoroughly and convincingly. Fact File is hopelessly outmatched here, given that its words contradict three sources in a higher tier of canonicity.
For the Dark Rendezvous fight:
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half.
Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.
"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's.
Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me...love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly...But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon. Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.
The missile was coming in with terrible speed and power: too much coming at Yoda too fast ever to wholly stop it, even if he had time and perfect peace. But he reached out to pull up the Force binding even Vjun's bitter green moss and twisted thorn-trees, and let it flow through him like a wind: the breath of a world, gathered and released in a push-feather game with all their lives on the line, not to oppose the missile's force with force, but to touch it gently on the side—just enough to send it screaming by the broken window casement to plunge a kilometer offshore into the cold and waiting sea.
A long instant later, water fountained from the ocean in a blaze of light three hundred meters tall, and then fell back.
The château and all those inside it had been spared: but Dooku was gone.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
While Yoda is distracted saving an innocent Dooku hurled out of the window, Dooku lands two hits on him. Yoda is injured and holding back- Dooku is amped by the DS energies on Vjun, yet Dooku is giving way and ground, being slowly pushed back. When Yoda sees that he needs to destroy Dooku, Dooku is pushed back MUCH quicker. Then Yoda says he wants to kill Dooku, because he loves him and doesn't want him to be a Sith slave. Dooku is then instantly drenched in sweat, and his lips go white just because Yoda starts going full out. Dooku then flees, because after he basically foresaw his own defeat and admitted that he was out of his game, he programmed a giant missile to fall on the chateau and blow up Anakin, Obi-Wan and other Jedi. Yoda then chooses to save his allies and let Dooku go. It is implied that Yoda would have utterly annihilated and stomped Dooku if he chose to lash out at him- showing just how superior Yoda is in relation to the Count.
So, let's make a final summary of Yoda's two fights with Dooku:
Geonosis
There are three sources depicting this fight: movie, comic and novel.
In the movie, Yoda gets an edge on Dooku after twenty-nine seconds.
In the comic, Yoda effortlessly parries all of Dooku's blows and tires the Count simply by defending (Yoda's form sucks at defense) and Dooku only escapes capture by calling a second blade not available to him in a fair fight, which is vital given how he is disarmed of his original blade. The comic later says Dooku is no match for Yoda.
In the novel, Yoda effortlessly turns aside/parries all of Dooku's blows without moving, then drives Dooku back. Dooku gets somewhat of a rage amp, given how his tempo increased dramatically, yet this is not enough to do anything to Master Yoda, who drives Dooku back quickly once he regains the offensive. Dooku becomes desperate.
Here, a holding back Yoda beat Dooku without much effort on his part- a full out Yoda would have nearly if not totally wiped the floor with Dooku.
Dark Rendezvous
This fight is much closer, but there are circumstances.
Yoda is injured and Dooku is considerably amped by the DS energies on Vjun. At the beginning, Yoda doesn't even want to fight. Yoda still gets an upper hand. When Yoda decides it's best to finish Dooku off, Dooku is instantly driven back (he was being driven back quite quick even before Yoda made a full decision) and flees shortly. Yoda could have annihilated (aka basically stomped) Dooku if he went after him, but once again decided to save his friends.
Take out all of the circumstances, and Yoda would have won quickly and solidly- and very likely wiped the floor with the Count, given the "Yoda could have annihilated him" statement.
Yoda is also one tier above Dooku:
Yoda is nine.
Dooku & Maul are eight, but there are huge differences inside the numbers themselves.
Nick Gillard
Yoda has factually eclipsed Dooku as a swordsman:
Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced- eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced- eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
The Official Starships & Veichles Collection #48
Heck, even Mace Windu, who's factually inferior to Yoda, eclipses Dooku as a swordsman.
With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.
Lightsabers: A Guide To Weapons of the Force
Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
Yoda is also outright superior to Anakin+Mace, Dooku's superiors.
As the most skilled and experienced Jedi Master in the Temple, Yoda could hide those incovenient feelings from everyone who knew him, but they were there.
Clone Wars Gambit: Siege
Yoda is vastly superior to Dooku as a swordsman.
Now, for the Force:
Yoda easily deflected Dooku's TK assaults, and repulsed his Lightning with mid/low difficulty. A Yoda who never attacked Dooku (he didn't attack Dooku, he redirected one of Dooku's attacks) and was most definitely holding back was "too evenly matched" with a Dooku who hated Yoda and wanted to kill him and was definitely going full out.
For feats:
Yoda lifted 80+ Droidekas, and while Dooku has lifted really big stuff he never lifted things in the 80+ range.
Yoda lifted and manipulated two pairs of Separatist transports in short succession.
Yoda dominated Asajj Ventress, someone capable of Force Pushing Anakin Skywalker, throwing about giant, dozen-ton heavy pillars (pre-prime), collapsing stone ceilings (pre-prime), blasting Obi-Wan Kenobi twice and casually lifting giant dozen-ton heavy pillars.
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Yoda also caused an avalanche, and lifted gigantic slabs of rock (no gesture in the latter).
Yoda also contended with Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord ever who did this to Dooku:
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And there are many more accolades. But this is enough ground to put Yoda out of Dooku's telekinetic league.
Physically, it's also rather one-sided.
Yoda physically stalemated Sidious, who has outmuscled/kicked Darth Maul and Savage Opress:
Just this puts Yoda out of Dooku's strength league.
This settles it. Yoda is vastly superior to Dooku. The fact file quote is now buke (as a Dooku=Yoda indicator, of course.) There is no way to debunk this, I'm sorry.
The reason Dooku in Rots was having so much grief with anakin is even due to anakin's form advantage.
And due to Anakin's superior skill. The form advantage helped, yes, but even prior to ROTS Dooku and Anakin (DD) were equals. It's confirmed Anakin grew a lot in the last months of the Clone Wars. ROTS Anakin>DD Anakin. By DD, Anakin was capable of stalemating Dooku. In ROTS, Anakin can and was besting Dooku before the rage amp, the rage amp simply made it much easier.
There are a quote saying neither of Dooku and anakin was gaining the advantage before anakin's rage amp.
Yes, but the novel depicts Anakin flooring Dooku, nearly killing Dooku, and driving him back/giving him strain to parry.
The movie also has Anakin kicking Dooku, and pressing him, with Dooku getting the advantage in the bladelock just because of Dun Moch- that only had its effect after the bladelock was pressed. Even when Kenobi was in the fight, Anakin was already pressing Dooku up the stairs.
Anakin>Dooku as of the Invisible Hand duel. Not by much, but still above the Count. After Invisible Hand, Anakin>Dooku by a wider margin, and Knightfall Vader is surely and solidly above Dooku.
Sure, Dooku was having grief
Yup- and Anakin wasn't depicted having any grief.
but when you are fighting against a your equal, this is obvious .
Dooku was having immense amounts of grief- while Anakin really wasn't. In the comic, Anakin Force Pushes Dooku before the rage amp.
This is pre-rage amp, given how Sidious only goads Anakin into using the dark side after this.
So... if you should be given grief by your equal, Anakin should have been given grief... yet, the challenge Anakin was given was nowhere as big as the challenge Dooku was given. Anakin was winning, and he's superior to Dooku at this point.
If we take them in absolute value, without considering the form advantage, they are equals.
No, they're not. If form advantage wasn't the only edge, Skywalker wouldn't have pressed Dooku so hard. It also has to do with Anakin's superior skill.
Anakin isn't a 9 before the rage amp, gillard pointed out this.
Quotes, please?
About mace, there are various quotes saying he is a Dooku's equal.
Where are they? I posted two quotes of Mace>Dooku, and Nick Gillard's ranking.
Also, speaking of Nick's ranking- you say Dooku & Maul have a huge difference between them, because there is a huge difference in the tiers themselves. Both are eight, none are bordering on nine. Mace is bordering on nine, Dooku isn't. And yet you completely forget about the "huge difference between tiers!" Why? Because it doesn't suit your agenda!
Stop the cherry picking.
You can give an edge to either,
Not really. While the margin is small, Mace is superior to the Count.
Dooku in Star Wars republic heroes stalemated both tcw obi and windu on behpour,
Honestly, from the Wookieepedia pages I read, Dooku was defeated. I know they aren't canon, but I saw it twice: one said "they eventually defeated Dooku" and "Dooku was defeated afeter a short duel." Anyway, he lost, and was only saved because of Ventress.
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(Cutscenes only) Dooku doesn't even try to fight, he just spams MagnaGuards on them. Then after the MagnaGuards die, it's only gameplay- but then Dooku falls out of the platform. Mace even says Dooku was defeated.
Wookieepedia also claims Dooku was defeated. We have no other sources on this- we have to go by this. And with the information gathered, Dooku lost. His saber was deactivated, which meant that he could be prepared to surrender.
I post kybroskwalket post, it explains more or less what I was about to say :
So, you're going based off a post from a very well known Maul lowballer who also thinks Dooku beats Maul+Savage Opress? That's based around ABC Logic? Oh come on, you can do better.
Yoda preferred that Dooku lives,
Exactly, and he had no lethal intentions- up until Dark Rendezvous. When Yoda acted lethal towards Dooku, Dooku lost, and it was implied Yoda could utterly annihilate Dooku. Basically a stomp.
but he prefers even Dooku dead instead of Dooku darkside and sidius slave .
As of Dark Rendzevous, not Geonosis.
If he could ragdoll Dooku , he would have done it .
By ragdoll, you mean Force Choking him and violently beating him into submission by banging him against the wall? Very sorry, that's not in Yoda's morals. Force Push OK, but your description of Force incapacitation isn't.
These are deadlier ways, though!
Nope. A single burst of Lightning will injure Dooku, yes, but less than violently applying pressure on his throat and banging his body against hard rock!
And saber duels don't have to be lethal. The comic confirms that Yoda disarmed Dooku, a non-lethal way of defeating him. Ventress was defeated here via disarmament, she wasn't injured via the blade.
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Her injuries were because of her ship crashing into the hangar. The hits Obi-Wan landed on Ventress were: a light Force Push, and a light kick.
Also, about Yoda's morals:
Use the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.
This is from ESB, when Yoda's training Luke.
The only moment when yoda was holding back with Dooku was at the beginning of vjun fight,
And Geonosis, if you know how to apply logic.
When he realized he couldn't , he said he would have destroyed him,
And Dooku lost. The book also states that Yoda could have utterly annihilated Dooku had he chased him without holding back.
the same thing he was trying to do on geonosis
According to your fanfictions, that always depict Dooku as a god.
These bumps are completely unnecessary. We can very easily compare them based on their performances vs the same/similar characters.
Dueling Ability
-Maul has been outmatched under favorable circumstances by tcw
-Dooku Outclassed a superior season 6 kenobi while dealing with TCW anakin and was superior to ROTS Kenobi despite dealing with ROTS Anakin
-An enraged Maul lasted about 20 seconds vs sidious when sids was gradually ramping up his speed(aka he wasn't going all out) and was disarmed. Sidious is explicitly stated to completely outclass maul and is "toying" with the brothers
-Dooku, without any rage amps, held his own vs yoda(sidious's virtual equal) who wasn't trying to kill him but was fighting at full speed for about almost 40 seconds and could have held out longer. Dooku is explicitly stated to be "almost equal" with yoda and indicated to have near parity by multiple sources at least blade wise.
-Additionally, Dooku held his own vs a yoda/sids level opponent in anakin despite also having to deal with Prime Kenobi despite anakin having a form advantage.
-Maul fought evenly in brief inconclusive fights vs grevious, one of which took place on the nexus of dathomir which arguably would boost maul
-Dooku is clearly above grievous with grievous only being able to momentarily press him
Force Use
-Maul has circumstantially dominated TCW Kenobi who had almost a year to grow and numerous emotional and physical confrontations to grow from between TCW and ROTS
-Dooku outright ragdolled A beginning of ROTS Kenobi while kicking a yoda/sids level dooku several feet
-Maul and his brother were simultaneously stomped force wise by sidious. Dooku was beyond yoda's ability to dominate(yoda is a sidious level force user) outright dominate him
I'm not seeing whats arguable here. Dooku's just better.
Them being in the same tier in gillard's system means nothing as it's noted there is a "Massive difference" in between tiers
Dooku, every time. Make this rebels Maul and there's actual discussion value
This doesn't need to be bumped
Dooku is the better duelist
Dooku is the better force user
Be it scaling, accolades, or feats, dooku is better
-Maul has been outmatched under favorable circumstances by tcw
-
Never happened, even against the likes of Mace Windu and even kicked Sidious during the duels.
Defeated TCW Kenobi in the Turtle Tanker, and never lost to him in Florrum even when Kenobi was amped due to Gallia's death. Did Dooku ever faced with Kenobi when Kenobi is amped ? I guess not.
-Dooku Outclassed a superior season 6 kenobi while dealing with TCW anakin and was superior to ROTS Kenobi despite dealing with ROTS Anakin
Anakin alone is more than enough for Dooku. He only kicked Kenobi, which is something even Ventress could do. Savage was ragdolling Anakin and Kenobi all over the place, Dooku did nothing to them and then he escaped.
Perhaps you might want to mention about how Dooku lost to Quinlan Vos twice and got ragdolled and disarmed by Savage Opress since you've tried to low-ball Maul in the same post.
-An enraged Maul lasted about 20 seconds vs sidious when sids was gradually ramping up his speed(aka he wasn't going all out) and was disarmed. Sidious is explicitly stated to completely outclass maul and is "toying" with the brothers
You don't toy with someone when they have the ability to kick you in the torso.
-Dooku, without any rage amps, held his own vs yoda(sidious's virtual equal) who wasn't trying to kill him but was fighting at full speed for about almost 40 seconds and could have held out longer. Dooku is explicitly stated to be "almost equal" with yoda and indicated to have near parity by multiple sources at least blade wise.
-Additionally, Dooku held his own vs a yoda/sids level opponent in anakin despite also having to deal with Prime Kenobi despite anakin having a form advantage.
Dooku was outmatched against Yoda,
And Dooku did nothing to Yoda, unlike Maul, who kicked Sidious in the torso at least once.
-Maul fought evenly in brief inconclusive fights vs grevious, one of which took place on the nexus of dathomir which arguably would boost maul
Grievous was never tried to fight with Maul anyway, he dodged from Maul's strike then Maul Force blasted him from the temple. Dathomir amplification is never mentioned that's your fanfiction.
It's weird that you didn't mention how Maul stomped Grievous and captured him before.
-Dooku is clearly above grievous with grievous only being able to momentarily press him
Maul is clearly above of Grievous also. Dooku was training Grievous from the start, it's only natural that he beat his pupil time to time by knowing his weaknesses, and then somehow being pressed by Grievous in a duel says a lot.
-Maul has circumstantially dominated TCW Kenobi who had almost a year to grow and numerous emotional and physical confrontations to grow from between TCW and ROTS
-Dooku outright ragdolled A beginning of ROTS Kenobi while kicking a yoda/sids level dooku several feet
-Maul and his brother were simultaneously stomped force wise by sidious. Dooku was beyond yoda's ability to dominate(yoda is a sidious level force user) outright dominate him
Right, forget that Sidious Force choked Dooku from another planet by using a hologram and and forget that he was getting Force choked by Savage Opress ...
It's only your fanfiction that Kenobi has grown more powerful in the Force during that specific timeline, Kenobi was already able to crack someone powerful as Ventress' ribs by using the Force at the beginning of the Clone Wars. TCW S4 Kenobi spent 2 years in the Clone Wars.
Them being in the same tier in gillard's system means nothing as it's noted there is a "Massive difference" in between tiers
Did Dooku one-shot AotC Kenobi or AotC Anakin or what ? They were level 7 fighters and there wasn't any ''massive differences'' during the duels... Dooku was just better than them and defeated them one by one.
TPM Maul is a level 8 fighter from the start, let alone TCW Maul who is even better.
Sidious completely destroyed a prime Maul who was enraged, and had back up in the form of his apprentice. Dooku at least stalemated with Yoda for a short while before fleeing due to his clear inferiority, which was also after completely tearing up Obi-wan and Anakin. I'd probably take Dooku for a slight majority. Not that this thread needs a bump lmao.
Because new people want to have their say? Because opinions change over time? Sometimes people are just bored? lol
OT: Not sure if it's just TCW Dooku; does he get any of his other media feats? His whole weakness to strength is very inconsistent throughout the media, even in TCW - season 4 Anakin presses him, but in season 6 he's matching him blade for blade just fine.
I used to argue that Dooku's form would be effective against Maul's do to Juyo's weakness to counterattacks and his success against Vaapad users such as Sora Bulq and Mace Windu(when both were pre-prime), but now I'm starting to doubt lightsaber forms play a such pivotal role in combat; most users seem to have compenstated for the inherent weaknesses and fight with a balance of attack and defense - Maul and Mace have good defense - Kenobi and Zannah are perfectly capable of attacking - Anakin and Bane are not weak to mobility.
Sidious completely destroyed a prime Maul who was enraged, and had back up in the form of his apprentice. Dooku at least stalemated with Yoda for a short while before fleeing due to his clear inferiority, which was also after completely tearing up Obi-wan and Anakin. I'd probably take Dooku for a slight majority. Not that this thread needs a bump lmao.
Sidious did have some difficulty putting down an enraged Maul though. Under regular circumstances yeah Sidious would make short work of any of his apprentices as was the case of the Shadow Conspiracy version where Maul wasn't enraged. but a massively enraged Maul who no longer cares about personal safety is going to give Sidious some pause.
Dooku never stalemated Yoda. He held his own for a short period of time, but Yoda always had the advantage. This was clear in both novelizations. Anakin and Kenobi were massively pre-prime and he took them out individually. His season 6 stalemating of the duo on Oba Diah is more impressive.
Well kind of yeah. It's similar to how Lockay, Bane's vast inferior was able to drive Bane back after he was massively amped by the death of his sister Yeevra, even though he was explicitly stated to be overmatched. Maul while massively enraged by the death of Savage and Sidious's taunts about being replace and forfeiting all sense of personal safety, was able to somewhat contend with him.
In Shadow Conspiracy where Maul sticks to the defensive instead, he is of course taken down in short order.
@kilius: Maul saw "countless" blades, then "even more than that". Maul only stuck to being on the defensive because there was nothing else he could do against Sidious' onslaught.
Well exactly. In Shadow Conspiracy Maul doesn't seem to have the rage amp. Instead he just seems to adopt a stance of desperation rather than the berserker rage we in TCW. Basically to different versions of the fight, one without the rage amp in which Maul is accordingly thrashed. The other where Maul is massively amped and fighting more aggressively than normal thus giving Sidious some difficulty. Rage amps are pretty massive and I don't think Sidious's apprentices are so far off from him that a one time circumstantial amp couldn't give him pause.
@richard96: Umm no. Obviously, getting the upper hand against Ahsoka or Ben Kenobi completely shits on creaming Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto in seconds and dominating Maul and Savage.
Why did someone bump this? Dooku wins but Maul gives him a fight. The only person that disagrees is the most infamous Maul wanker on the site @erkan12.
It isn't an assured victory, remember this canon only. And canon Dooku is weaker than Legends Dooku by a long shot.
How? Dooku managed to hold off both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time whereas Maul is at best equal to Obi Wan but even that is stretching it. Obi Wan managed to hold off Maul and Savage at the same time and even managed to injuire Savage.
It isn't an assured victory, remember this canon only. And canon Dooku is weaker than Legends Dooku by a long shot.
How? Dooku managed to hold off both Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time whereas Maul is at best equal to Obi Wan but even that is stretching it. Obi Wan managed to hold off Maul and Savage at the same time and even managed to injuire Savage.
Name me some of canon Anakin and Obi Wan's best feats? Because both of them are inferior to their legends counterparts by a large margin
Canon dooku held his own against yoda, stalemated TCW S6 anakin and obi wan, defeated ROTS Obi wan while dealing with anakin, clowned AOTC kenobi and defeated while toying AOTC Anakin. Canon maul, while rage amped, got tooled by a toying Sidious, had trouble against a rage amped TPM kenobi, was not able to stomp kenobi even with savage help. It is clear who is the better.
Yoda was likely holding back, now don't think I am lowballing Dooku here, because I am not. But Obi Wan and Anakin as a team don't have many impressive showings in canon. They were both driven back by the likes of Savage Opress and Ventress.
Also Dooku in canon was bested by Quinlan Vos.
I'm not doubting legends Dooku would win. But I am unsure about Canon Dooku. I think its an even split really.
Assuming canon, it's a 6/4 decision that favors Maul, however Dooku is no pushover.
richard96 said:
In popularity as swordsmen, you mean.
Adhering to that fallacious line of reasoning, even after it was disproven isn't even humorous anymore. It's just sad.
richard96 said:
What does canon maul have to suggest he can split with dooku?
Squaring off with Aayla and Mace (who in canon is Yoda/Palps level in dueling) simultaneously and not getting wrecked. Palpatine also held Maul in higher esteem as a Sith than he did Dooku; who he only ever viewed as disposable.
There is nothing saying is the list is based on skill.
Actually there is. Each of the Sith has a blurb which details their fighting styles and skill. A popularity contest would compare their rankings with charts and graphs. It's also been REPEATEDLY emphasized by the story group that the info in the book is canon, whether you fanboys like it or not.
richard96 said:
Palpatine didn't care about Dooku because he'd discovered Anakin. When he chose maul he did not know of anakin.
Doesn't change the fact he still praised Maul and viewed his expulsion from the Sith as a true loss.
richard96 said:
ONE panel. There is no indication how much the fight lasted, and if off panel maul was holding his own or getting rekt. And mace is an 8 bordering on 9, while yoda is 9.
Legends only."HUR HURR Gillard 7,8,9!!!" has no bearing in canon.
@jerrah13: Maul was only a loss at the time when Sidious didn't have Anakin in mind. Why would Dooku be a loss when he never intended keep him? After Sidious invested in Anakin and Maul was found to be alive, Sidious never attempted to bring him back into the Sith fold and replace Tyranus with him - he even sticks the fact in Maul's wounded pride that he was replaced by Tyranus. Clearly both at this point were consider expendable to Sidious once he set his mind on Anakin.
Also Sidious praised Dooku too - he claimed Talzin had none of Dooku's skill.
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