Marvel vs DC vs The Elder Scrolls vs Umineko vs Ergenverse

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astrographsorcerer

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Poll Marvel vs DC vs The Elder Scrolls vs Umineko vs Ergenverse (52 votes)

Living Tribunal ,HOTU Thanos, and Pre-Retcon Beyonder 25%
Lucifer Morningstar, Michael Demiurgos, and Mother Night 29%
Aka, Padomay, and Vivec 13%
Featherine, EOS Battler, and Beatrice Ushiromiya (full potential) 10%
Meng Hao, Li Qiye, and Bai Xiaochun 23%

Who would win in this cosmic calamity?

Please try to keep things civil as I know these threads can be a bit of a rollercoaster

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astrographsorcerer

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lmaolmaolmao

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Li Qiye is not from Er Gen verse

Xianxia is a genre,not a verse

I repeat,its a genre,not a verse.

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Y3kthunder

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bruh

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HukO

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No please know

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astrographsorcerer

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@lmaolmaolmao said:

Li Qiye is not from Er Gen verse

Xianxia is a genre,not a verse

I repeat,its a genre,not a verse.

LOL

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Floopay

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Uh....I love Elder Scrolls; but they're screwed here.

Vivec was super powerful and so are the Daedra; but none of them are on this level. Time and time again Elder Scrolls have gone out of their way to specifically show that the myth behind the Daedra and the Nine is different from the reality of them.

Vivec himself was a false god who died sometimes between the 3rd and 4th era. And he had one of the best canon feats of any Daedra. Having suspended millions of tons with his TK for hundreds of years, and presumably stopping upwards of a thousand times that force.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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astrographsorcerer

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@floopay The legendary Floopay? tis an honor sir

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Thekillerklok

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Living tribunal's sole purpose in marvel is to job really hard. Pre retcon beyonder was overhyped, I believe the heart of the unviverse is limited to affecting said universe though I could be wrong.

current Lucy/micheal are fodder. Mother Night should be Op as crap, but I don't think the character in practice lives up to the concept.

Aka, Padomay, and Vivec, No idea elder scrolls gods so probably OP as shit.

Featherine, EOS Battler, and Beatrice Ushiromiya (full potential) imo get wrecked by Real/Unreal seal, which seems to be a pretty definitive counter to meta nonsense.

Meng Hao could carry a team on his own, Senior Bai brings the trollforce to the team, and Li Qiye is a terrible character written to be unbeatable.

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Y3kthunder

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@thekillerklok: what do you mean current lucy an michael are fodder? michael hasnt shown up yet. an lucy while depowered as all crap is about to toss hands with 4 concepts that had the lords of order quaking in there boots which is impressive so not as powerful as he once was but whatev. an how does mother night not live up to ur expectations

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Thekillerklok

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@thekillerklok: what do you mean current lucy an michael are fodder? michael hasnt shown up yet. an lucy while depowered as all crap is about to toss hands with 4 concepts that had the lords of order quaking in there boots which is impressive so not as powerful as he once was but whatev. an how does mother night not live up to ur expectations

Presence is Explicitly not omnipotent... No boundless backed concepts to be found anymore. and I don't rate aristotelian concepts like the endless as highly, as platonic is clearly superior via being immutable and boundless. a horrific downgrade that I loath.

mother night's whole shtick is based off of Taoism's idea of Wuji. But via being a character with consciousness one can assume she is not the ultimate emptiness, Maybe an aspect or embodiment or something.

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Zczcszsz

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#11  Edited By Zczcszsz

DC and Marvel are fodders this is Elder Scrolls vs Umineko vs Ergen which Vivec would oneshot the entire gauntlet.

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Anaverageguy123

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@thekillerklok: Actually, according to JMD, he is. In Vertigo canon he might also be, but @y3kthunder is better there, he can explain why it may be so. But yeah, you aren't technically wrong as depending on your interpretation, he may not be omnipotent. Not sure about the Endless thing, technically nothing in fiction is truly platonic because someone can always manipulate them debunking the fact that they are suppose to be changeless.

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MyMom

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@astrographsorcerer:

Bruh again?

Answer: Stalemate

When it comes to these battles where "my infinity is bigger than yours" they can be determined in 3 ways:

1 - Using meta BS (which you already saw).

2 - Determing size of each multiverse, Type I - Type IV because its not the same destroying the Type I or Type IV multiverse.

3 - And if they are both Type IV, determing which infinity is bigger.

PS: If they come with "muh platonic muh neo platonic, dimensionz" those are just meaningless buzzwords, because each concept and dimension function differently in fiction and they shouldn't be taken seriously because they can't proven they own argument, don't know what burden of proof is, doesn't understand what NLF is, which they then refer to Argument from ignorance and invincible ignorance fallacy then starts accusing you for being a troll with some alt accounts and run from debate.

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lmaolmaolmao

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@mymom said:

@astrographsorcerer:

Bruh again?

Answer: Stalemate

When it comes to these battles where "my infinity is bigger than yours" they can be determined in 3 ways:

1 - Using meta BS (which you already saw).

2 - Determing size of each multiverse, Type I - Type IV because its not the same destroying the Type I or Type IV multiverse.

3 - And if they are both Type IV, determing which infinity is bigger.

PS: If they come with "muh platonic muh neo platonic, dimensionz" those are just meaningless buzzwords, because each concept and dimension function differently in fiction and they shouldn't be taken seriously because they can't proven they own argument, don't know what burden of proof is, doesn't understand what NLF is, which they then refer to Argument from ignorance and invincible ignorance fallacy then starts accusing you for being a troll with some alt accounts and run from debate.

>Calls concepts and platonics Meaningless buzzwords and says things vary from fiction to fiction.

>Proceeds to jack off to infinities and multiverse theories anyway

Hello kind sir welcome to fiction where some authors think Transfinite>Infinity

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Anaverageguy123

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@mymom: Actually Type IV may be inaccessible. Remember Type IV is the mathematical multiverse where any consistent/logical mathematical system exist as a universe. So it could contain all sorts of transfinities from Null to Inaccessible. As the cardinalities between Null to Inaccessible are obviously mathematically logical, hence a Type IV multiverse would contain them. Iirc, Type IV multiverse also can't "expand" as a whole, because it already contains any and all expanding multiversal model at any stage of expansion. And containing all possible universes means there is nothing for it to expand to contain. Or at least that's what I remember reading.

Platonic and Neoplatonic seem to be the opposite response to dimensional tiering and stuff. Rather than argue infinities/raw power, they do metaphysics and hax. At least that's what I understand. Although I'm not quite sure how to apply platonism to cardinal set theory, so that might be an issue.

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HappyLife1996

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@thekillerklok: Current Lucifer is having the GEB as one of his aspects and you say he's fodder?

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MyMom

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@lmaolmaolmao:

>Calls concepts and platonics Meaningless buzzwords and says things vary from fiction to fiction.

Hey man, platonic would need statements of them being Platonic and explanation(s) which correspond to all criterias of the Theory of Form, without having contradictions with it, otherwise Argument from ignorance fallacy.

>Proceeds to jack off to infinities and multiverse theories anyway

In my opinion it is easily to use and scale fictional multiverses in battles like these to determine who would win, but hey if you still want to use Platonic argument go a head nothing stopin ya but provide your own reasoing and arguments why would they be platonic in the first place.

Hello kind sir welcome to fiction where some authors think Transfinite>Infinity

Ya I am aware in fiction anything is possible, but atleast I will try to explain logicly as possible.

@anaverageguy123:

Actually Type IV may be inaccessible. Remember Type IV is the mathematical multiverse where any consistent/logical mathematical system exist as a universe. So it could contain all sorts of transfinities from Null to Inaccessible. As the cardinalities between Null to Inaccessible are obviously mathematically logical, hence a Type IV multiverse would contain them. Iirc, Type IV multiverse also can't "expand" as a whole, because it already contains any and all expanding multiversal model at any stage of expansion. And containing all possible universes means there is nothing for it to expand to contain. Or at least that's what I remember reading.

True, that was my mistake Type IV is indeed inaccessible cardinal.

Platonic and Neoplatonic seem to be the opposite response to dimensional tiering and stuff. Rather than argue infinities/raw power, they do metaphysics and hax. At least that's what I understand. Although I'm not quite sure how to apply platonism to cardinal set theory, so that might be an issue.

In my opinion Platonic concepts are just like the omnipotents, pure NLF, absolute and unchangeable.

But then in fiction we get hyperboles and somehow they can be manipulated by the others which makes them non platonic in the first place.

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astrographsorcerer

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@mymom: Just trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks for the reply boss

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Thekillerklok

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@thekillerklok: Actually, according to JMD, he is. In Vertigo canon he might also be, but @y3kthunder is better there, he can explain why it may be so. But yeah, you aren't technically wrong as depending on your interpretation, he may not be omnipotent. Not sure about the Endless thing, technically nothing in fiction is truly platonic because someone can always manipulate them debunking the fact that they are suppose to be changeless.

Comicvine always uses current versions of characters unless otherwise stated...

@thekillerklok: Current Lucifer is having the GEB as one of his aspects and you say he's fodder?

and I didn't just call current lucy fodder, I called current presence fodder, therefore his counterpart not that impressive.

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HappyLife1996

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@thekillerklok: Well, in Vertigo he is still the creator, so I wouldn't call him fodder.

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Thekillerklok

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@thekillerklok: Well, in Vertigo he is still the creator, so I wouldn't call him fodder.

again you always use current versions of the character unless otherwise stated... Kind of my whole point was me dumping on what DC is doing with the character.

No Caption Provided

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HappyLife1996

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#22  Edited By HappyLife1996

@thekillerklok: I think Vertigo has its own cannon, it ignores the monitors, and Lucifer is a Vertigo character, and the Presence is the creator still.

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Thekillerklok

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@thekillerklok: I think Vertigo has its own cannon, it ignores the monitors, and Lucifer is a Vertigo character, and the Presence is the creator still.

It does, but you see the current version of the character is DC... and via battle rules I screenshoted above, you always use current unless otherwise stated.

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HappyLife1996

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zgtfreak

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@thekillerklok: Isn't current DC composite? That would make Lucifer scale to the omnipotent Presence, would it not? And why is the "current" Presence fodder? Just curious. Is it because he went missing?

And I agree that Meng would beat Aurora and Beatrice, but I am split on Battler.

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Thekillerklok

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@zgtfreak said:

@thekillerklok: Isn't current DC composite? That would make Lucifer scale to the omnipotent Presence, would it not? And why is the "current" Presence fodder? Just curious. Is it because he went missing?

And I agree that Meng would beat Aurora and Beatrice, but I am split on Battler.

Current Presence is a layerboi who is explicitly not the top... kind of ruins the whole Omni thing.

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zgtfreak

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@thekillerklok: Ooo... Damn. That's... pretty terrible. So do you think Lucifer can scale to the omnipotent Presence? Or do you think that the Presence being omnipotent at all is thrown out the window now?

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Thekillerklok

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@zgtfreak said:

@thekillerklok: Ooo... Damn. That's... pretty terrible. So do you think Lucifer can scale to the omnipotent Presence? Or do you think that the Presence being omnipotent at all is thrown out the window now?

Unless you specify like "Full power" or "Vertigo cannon." I would yeet all that is supposed to scale from an omnipotent presence out the window.

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zgtfreak

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@thekillerklok: I can respect that. Hell, Vertigo Presence isn't omnipotent even. I'm on the fence tbh. You could interpret these Presence anti-feats as a recton to the omnipotent version.

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RustedDusty

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@astrographsorcerer: As a few people mentioned, are we sticking with current DC or Vertigo Canon?

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TheVVitchKing

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Elder Scrolls doesn’t belong here

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astrographsorcerer

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@rusteddusty: I forgot to put full-power in the OP.

So everyone has their composite feats, I am not distinguishing between various canons or using the current incarnations. Should have said that apologies..

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RustedDusty

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#33  Edited By RustedDusty

@astrographsorcerer: Again, that would mean we are referring to DC where the Presence is Nigh-Omnipotent. Lucifer and Michael take a piss on everyone here.

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zgtfreak

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@astrographsorcerer: Again, that would mean we are referring to DC where the Presence is Nigh-Omnipotent. Lucifer and Michael take a piss on everyone here.

Nah, composite makes him fully omnipotent. I don't think Lucifer and Michael can beat WTC or Ergen if the Presence isn't fully omnipotent.

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Y3kthunder

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@anaverageguy123: nicely said

@thekillerklok the current presence is stated to be the void or the infinite nothingness lucifer

and raguel state this plus he is still older than creation and is consider responsible for it etc etc he isnt fodder by no means

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Thekillerklok

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@anaverageguy123: nicely said

@thekillerklok the current presence is stated to be the void or the infinite nothingness lucifer

and raguel state this plus he is still older than creation and is consider responsible for it etc etc he isnt fodder by no means

Let me go a step further in dc the presence and everything below the topmost layer is explicitly a fiction inside of a fiction.

While there are admittedly different ways to equalize characters, DC doesn't just give us characters and let the assumption of death of the author take place, it specifically had to go meta and deny that.

how about this, Seiichirō Kitano vs the presence. who wins?

it's valid to argue that in Angel densetsu death of the author is allowed to take place, and to the character the verse is actually real.

Where as inside DC the presence is explicitly a fiction.

Kitano wins... Fodder.

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astrographsorcerer

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I wonder if I picked the right TES characters for this

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RustedDusty

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@astrographsorcerer: Can’t think of any Elder Scrolls character that could do much in this fight honestly.

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Y3kthunder

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@thekillerklok: so it sounds to me that your taking the monitor fans side on the whole meta thing as they (monitors view the multiverse as a germ world or simply a story) which makes no difference when speaking of the presence as destiny holds the multiverse an views everthing in it as storys as well an again he isnt jack to the presence then you have being like lucien who can actually narrate storys as he did in the dreaming 2018 yet he isnt anything to dream, who can re write destinys book an all the (storys within) who isnt anything compared to the presence then theres the fact that of course the presence isnt limited to the multiverse whatsoever.

now id like to point out my issue with meta, in terms of battle boarding such as this it means jack my dude. look at arale from doctor slump she has 4th wall feats an im pretty sure shes interacted with her author yet beerus can destroy her with the utter most ease. you dont see people pitting him up against the presence if they could nor the beings from dragon ball heroes with the characters from the arcade game that could affect what was the "real world" . you have beings like the impossible man who interact with stan lee an go to marvel 4th wall break yet you dont see people pitting him up against the presence. or deadpool who aside for his joke storys of beating everyone. he isnt being pitted against multiversal beings then you have lobo who killed bugs bunny an pretty sure he stalemated the mask an he isnt jack in comparison. then in some storys mxy isnt even jack to the spectre.

an so what what if kintano views his world as the real world many characters do doesnt mean much look at tom taylor from the unwritten he is a fantasic example he came from the "real world" were there was no superhoeros etc that was all just storys etc only to learn he to was just a story an he viewed all the worlds like fables as fiction only to realize that they only were to his world an they did if fact exist an that other worlds would be considered fiction to them. an again he is pitted against the presence. look at superman an all the metaness surrounding him thanks to endless nights supermans story begun with despair of the endless who convinced rao to create a doomed planet (krypton) were it would have 1 survivor who would become the symbol of hope an again not comparable to presence. an who exactly is the presence? he is simply God he has no actual form while yes he is associated with heaven he isnt just associated with that. look at michael kali is an avatar of him thats got nothing to do with heaven an the source seemed to have a connection with him as well according to the spectre who sensed michael as he was about to enter it. or look at mxy who viewed the supreme as the writer. the presence is simply a form in which your mind can grasp him as. so kintano= fodder plus he really is smh hate you thinking a fodder high schooler can beat him.

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Anaverageguy123

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@y3kthunder: Nice one Y3K!

@thekillerklok: was actually going to point out that both current Vertigo canon and JMD (and possibly Snyder) put the Presence above all creation. So above the sixth dimension, which is above the monitor sphere which is above all so-called fiction in fiction/meta layers thing. So idk where the hell you are getting that the Presence is fiction in fiction. The only way I can see this being semi-legit is if you take the Monitor wankers’ claim that the Presence is in the Godsphere hence below the meta powers of the Monitors...which is by no means supported in current canon.

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COOLGUY18

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The Elder scrolls team is weak here lol. Only Padomay is relevant. Akatosh and Vivec are crap.

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Anaverageguy123

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@astrographsorcerer: Anu and Padomay may be good. Them being Changeless and Change can be pretty hard to put down. Because almost everything the enemy team does falls into their sphere of influence/is a subset of what they ARE.

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MErulezall

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I'm legit confused why anyone thinks Elder Scrolls has a shot at winning when Pre-retcon Beyonder could solo the warhammer 40k universe along with all its gods.... yet they think ES could contend let alone win.....

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COOLGUY18

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#44  Edited By COOLGUY18

Anyways, how would the other teams deal with Padomay? He is the literal embodiment of change, the opposite of Anu who is the embodiment of stasis

Padomay, also known as Fadomai,[1]Padhome,[2] or PSJJJJ,[UL 1] is a primordial deity who personifies the concepts of chaos and change

As from what I can see, almost everyone here is under the influence of Padomay. How would they take him down?

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Anaverageguy123

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@mymom said:

@lmaolmaolmao:

>Calls concepts and platonics Meaningless buzzwords and says things vary from fiction to fiction.

Hey man, platonic would need statements of them being Platonic and explanation(s) which correspond to all criterias of the Theory of Form, without having contradictions with it, otherwise Argument from ignorance fallacy.

>Proceeds to jack off to infinities and multiverse theories anyway

In my opinion it is easily to use and scale fictional multiverses in battles like these to determine who would win, but hey if you still want to use Platonic argument go a head nothing stopin ya but provide your own reasoing and arguments why would they be platonic in the first place.

Hello kind sir welcome to fiction where some authors think Transfinite>Infinity

Ya I am aware in fiction anything is possible, but atleast I will try to explain logicly as possible.

@anaverageguy123:

Actually Type IV may be inaccessible. Remember Type IV is the mathematical multiverse where any consistent/logical mathematical system exist as a universe. So it could contain all sorts of transfinities from Null to Inaccessible. As the cardinalities between Null to Inaccessible are obviously mathematically logical, hence a Type IV multiverse would contain them. Iirc, Type IV multiverse also can't "expand" as a whole, because it already contains any and all expanding multiversal model at any stage of expansion. And containing all possible universes means there is nothing for it to expand to contain. Or at least that's what I remember reading.

True, that was my mistake Type IV is indeed inaccessible cardinal.

Platonic and Neoplatonic seem to be the opposite response to dimensional tiering and stuff. Rather than argue infinities/raw power, they do metaphysics and hax. At least that's what I understand. Although I'm not quite sure how to apply platonism to cardinal set theory, so that might be an issue.

In my opinion Platonic concepts are just like the omnipotents, pure NLF, absolute and unchangeable.

But then in fiction we get hyperboles and somehow they can be manipulated by the others which makes them non platonic in the first place.

Yeo, that’s why an argument exist where nothing is truly platonic.

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lmaolmaolmao

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@mymom said:

@lmaolmaolmao:

>Calls concepts and platonics Meaningless buzzwords and says things vary from fiction to fiction.

Hey man, platonic would need statements of them being Platonic and explanation(s) which correspond to all criterias of the Theory of Form, without having contradictions with it, otherwise Argument from ignorance fallacy.

>Proceeds to jack off to infinities and multiverse theories anyway

In my opinion it is easily to use and scale fictional multiverses in battles like these to determine who would win, but hey if you still want to use Platonic argument go a head nothing stopin ya but provide your own reasoing and arguments why would they be platonic in the first place.

Hello kind sir welcome to fiction where some authors think Transfinite>Infinity

Ya I am aware in fiction anything is possible, but atleast I will try to explain logicly as possible.

@anaverageguy123:

Actually Type IV may be inaccessible. Remember Type IV is the mathematical multiverse where any consistent/logical mathematical system exist as a universe. So it could contain all sorts of transfinities from Null to Inaccessible. As the cardinalities between Null to Inaccessible are obviously mathematically logical, hence a Type IV multiverse would contain them. Iirc, Type IV multiverse also can't "expand" as a whole, because it already contains any and all expanding multiversal model at any stage of expansion. And containing all possible universes means there is nothing for it to expand to contain. Or at least that's what I remember reading.

True, that was my mistake Type IV is indeed inaccessible cardinal.

Platonic and Neoplatonic seem to be the opposite response to dimensional tiering and stuff. Rather than argue infinities/raw power, they do metaphysics and hax. At least that's what I understand. Although I'm not quite sure how to apply platonism to cardinal set theory, so that might be an issue.

In my opinion Platonic concepts are just like the omnipotents, pure NLF, absolute and unchangeable.

But then in fiction we get hyperboles and somehow they can be manipulated by the others which makes them non platonic in the first place.

Yeo, that’s why an argument exist where nothing is truly platonic.

If you go by that logic then almost every author thinks cosmology and infinities work differently.Technically speaking narrative transcendence should be impossible without external help,but characters do that anyway.Some authors think infinity*400>infinity.Some think transfinite>Infinity.Some think infinity+1>Infinity.

So what do we do?Do we stop comparing multiversal characters?You dont get to critisize concepts and metaphysics then use double standards and favour infinities.

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@thekillerklok: so it sounds to me that your taking the monitor fans side on the whole meta thing as they (monitors view the multiverse as a germ world or simply a story) which makes no difference when speaking of the presence as destiny holds the multiverse an views everthing in it as storys as well an again he isnt jack to the presence then you have being like lucien who can actually narrate storys as he did in the dreaming 2018 yet he isnt anything to dream, who can re write destinys book an all the (storys within) who isnt anything compared to the presence then theres the fact that of course the presence isnt limited to the multiverse whatsoever.

now id like to point out my issue with meta, in terms of battle boarding such as this it means jack my dude. look at arale from doctor slump she has 4th wall feats an im pretty sure shes interacted with her author yet beerus can destroy her with the utter most ease. you dont see people pitting him up against the presence if they could nor the beings from dragon ball heroes with the characters from the arcade game that could affect what was the "real world" . you have beings like the impossible man who interact with stan lee an go to marvel 4th wall break yet you dont see people pitting him up against the presence. or deadpool who aside for his joke storys of beating everyone. he isnt being pitted against multiversal beings then you have lobo who killed bugs bunny an pretty sure he stalemated the mask an he isnt jack in comparison. then in some storys mxy isnt even jack to the spectre.

an so what what if kintano views his world as the real world many characters do doesnt mean much look at tom taylor from the unwritten he is a fantasic example he came from the "real world" were there was no superhoeros etc that was all just storys etc only to learn he to was just a story an he viewed all the worlds like fables as fiction only to realize that they only were to his world an they did if fact exist an that other worlds would be considered fiction to them. an again he is pitted against the presence. look at superman an all the metaness surrounding him thanks to endless nights supermans story begun with despair of the endless who convinced rao to create a doomed planet (krypton) were it would have 1 survivor who would become the symbol of hope an again not comparable to presence. an who exactly is the presence? he is simply God he has no actual form while yes he is associated with heaven he isnt just associated with that. look at michael kali is an avatar of him thats got nothing to do with heaven an the source seemed to have a connection with him as well according to the spectre who sensed michael as he was about to enter it. or look at mxy who viewed the supreme as the writer. the presence is simply a form in which your mind can grasp him as. so kintano= fodder plus he really is smh hate you thinking a fodder high schooler can beat him.

My argument was that DC characters are explicitly fiction in their own cannon and compared that to any character which would enjoy the rights granted by the assumption that in their own cannon they are "real." and not a meta story beholden to a fictional writer. See I am actually pointing out how garbage meta bullshit is... via using a "Valid" argument as an example..

also that's a fodder high schooler specifically would refuse to harm any other being unless it was to save them from greater harm. His morality is absolute good, what kind of monster would fight him, which comic hero is up to that task? How are they going to beat him in a battle in a heroic way?

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MyMom

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#48  Edited By MyMom

@lmaolmaolmao:

If you go by that logic then almost every author thinks cosmology and infinities work differently. Technically speaking narrative transcendence should be impossible without external help,but characters do that anyway.Some authors think infinity*400>infinity.Some think transfinite>Infinity.Some think infinity+1>Infinity.

I don't care what Author thinks I only care what he wroted it(not illogical ones like suggverse). Let me give you a example:

X starts describing his fictional multiverse. We conclude that his multiverse is TYPE I.

Y starts describing his fictional multiverse. We conclude that his multiverse is TYPE II.

Lets say, charater from X destroyed his multiverse, same as charater from Y his. In conclusion charater from Y > charater from X because Y is more complex than X. Therefore we use scalling like that in situation like these. Same example can be applied in concepts and metaphysics. Abstract of Y can be more complex than abstract of X because it depends on the Author who wroted it.

Or infinites, some authors don't care while other can go deeply into it. Since ℵ1 is distinct from ℵ0.

Multiverse described as ℵ1 is the second-smallest infinite cardinal number unlike ℵ0 therefore charaters who can bust multiverse described as ℵ1 is logically stronger than charater who can bust multiverse descriped as ℵ0.

Or by your logic all fictional universes are TYPE IV Multiverse and all concepts are same trough every fiction without Author stating so??

So what do we do?Do we stop comparing multiversal characters?You dont get to critisize concepts and metaphysics then use double standards and favour infinities.

I never critisize use of concepts and metaphysics in fiction. I only critisize someone being Truly platonic, same as someone being True omnipotent. Because if we can't scale concepts and metaphysics through fiction this leads to NLF vs NLF argument.

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#49  Edited By MyMom

Since People are not familiar with TES lore or cosmology and eveything is composite (*cough* C0DA *cough*) might as well post relevant ones here (THERE ARE LOTS OF SCANS, STATEMENTS, WOG, ETC NOT GOING TO POST THEM ALL):

The Elder Scrolls cosmology by and away encompasses far more than a single multiverse.

Aetherius & Oblivion are both infinite (with many, many examples for the latter) and there are many (possibly infinite) parrallel Nirns in Mundus.

Online:Connalenwe - UESPWiki

Aetherius is a deep, dark, and endless sea. Endless, too are the secrets of magic and its myriad forms and expressions. Consider me a tutor, provided you merit my tutelage.

Elder Scrolls Online

Ah, the Xivilai. Are there any Daedra, in all the infinite worlds of Oblivion, more pompous and filled with unwarranted conceit than those impertinent and unruly louts?

Shadowkey:Scroll of Shadow - UESPWiki

First Scroll of Shadow

... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.

Other conflicting forces produced less obvious shadows, fire and water, wind and rock, or nations at war.

With skill and patience, the shadows of all could be read, and patterns teased out, emphasized or eradicated.

Manipulating a shadow could, through contagion, manipulate the object or force which cast it.

Second Scroll of Shadow

... Azra attempted what had never been done before, manipulating his own shadow to such an extent that he instantiated and melded all possible Azras at the same time, crossing over from this singular existence to all the existences in shadow.

Ignorant Redguard soldiers, fearing the power of Azra should he succeed, trapped and confronted Azra.

The battle did not go well for the wizard.

The hole blasted when he lost control of his magics can still be seen at the village that bears his name, Azra's Crossing.

The science of shadow lost a great man that day, although others, such as Pergan Asuul, strive to take his place.

Now that's clear, let's look at how the Aurbis exists between Anu & Padomay (or Satak & Akel). Satakal is the combined concept of both.

Lore:The Monomyth - UESPWiki

'Aurbis' is used to connote the imperceptible Penumbra, the Gray Center between the IS/IS NOT of Anu and Padomay. It contains the multitude realms of Aetherius and Oblivion, as well as other, less structured forms.

Lore:The Monomyth - UESPWiki

"Satak was First Serpent, the Snake who came Before, and all the worlds to come rested in the glimmer of its scales. But it was so big there was nothing but, and thus it was coiled around and around itself, and the worlds to come slid across each other but none had room to breathe or even be. And so the worlds called to something to save them, to let them out, but of course there was nothing outside the First Serpent, so aid had to come from inside it; this was Akel, the Hungry Stomach. Akel made itself known, and Satak could only think about what it was, and it was the best hunger, so it ate and ate. Soon there was enough room to live in the worlds and things began. These things were new and they often made mistakes, for there was hardly time to practice being things before. So most things ended quickly or were not good or gave up on themselves. Some things were about to start, but they were eaten up as Satak got to that part of its body. This was a violent time.

The 36 Lessons of Vivec, a completely different religion all together, supports the existance of Satakal.

Lore:36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 21 - UESPWiki

The Scripture of the Wheel, First:

'The Spokes are the eight components of chaos, as yet solidified by the law of time: static change, if you will, something the lizard gods refer to as the Striking. That is the reptile wheel, coiled potential, ever-preamble to the never-action.'

Second:

'They are the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT, the wet earth of the new star our home. Outside them is the Aurbis, and not within. Like most things inexplicable, it is a circle. Circles are confused serpents, striking and striking and never given leave to bite. The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters. Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed. '

Third:

'The enlightened are those uneaten by the world.'

Fourth:

'The spaces between the gift-limbs number sixteen, the signal shapes of the Demon Princedoms. It is the key and the lock, series and manticore.'

Fifth:

'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole,second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'

Sixth:

'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'

Seventh:

'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'

Eighth:

'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

Keep in mind that the Aurbis is a Wheel and contains at least two infinite segments when you read the next part...

Michael Kirkbride's Posts | The Imperial Library

"Or the number could be more Lorkhanic nonsense; that is, convenient for Man.

"The Ysmir line is dead and so is His stranglehold on the mythic.

"A single Wheel? More like a Telescope that stretches all the way back to the Eye of the Anui-El, with Padomaics innumerable along its infinite walls.

"We're coming for you in every one of your quarters, Sons of Talos. None shall survive."

Note the above is atributed to Anui-El, whose the greatest subgradent (but still below) Anu the Amaranth, who is below the Godhead.

It's possible to travel between Aurbises. Infact, one can do this just by sailing to Akavir or possibly Yoduka.

Amaranth anon Anu anon Anew AE I

Tamriel is the present. It is literally the center of time.

Akavir is the East and it is in the future.

Hammerfell is to the West and is in the past.

Traveling from west to east means more than taking time to sail, it means sailing across time.

Atmora to the North is frozen in time. As such, it didn't really exist at all.

Aldmeris to the South is** outside of time**. As such, it didn't really exist at all.

The moons? Now they're really weird when it comes to time.

It's linear. It follows a line.

The Line, if you get me.

"At twilight on the 12th day out of Jabbur, Coyle, long-learned in the navigations, took sighting of the non-constellation of Sep and abruptly Cyrus changed course to the north. The old hands explained to the new that they had crossed the Line that day and it was now safe to bear up for Old Yokuda." - CvV

Most of the most famous crosstime, interdream sailings have been by fleet. They never end up smooth.

Sufficiently similar symbols as bridges between dreams, if you're versed enough in the Godhead's rules to jump the gap...

Like a kingly leaper, perhaps.

Akavir has become the New Amaranth.

From the words of Tosh-Raka

Along the Jillian Wall which was untamed in your west by the epoxy-meht and sun-sullied Namer, The Ailing Den, there are the sapsworn ficklebits. The Enemy that resides outside the akashakalpic flower. They hide like flowers. They spore. They ate. And their math runs backwards into the destruction of the ancient snake-saints.Those pasts have already been long Determined by history.

Tosh-Raka says to the Kinging Kinds in the Lyg that for every dreugh there is we shall love no other ocean. Your religions are your own, and of the doors to their houses he desires no keys. Instead, yes, lock your Maztiax clockwise from the False Biters. Stamp in razors the Otherkinde as if skooma and snort them up, out, and back into the Marsh. The center is already Determined, but its antinomial is not.

Tosh-Raka is the Dragon of Akavir, alive now in the future since your children saw the debut of my parents in your spriggan-welts. We exist where they are dreaming-sleep, and only our my clutchmates decide which stories belong, recorded, against this, our Jillian Wall.

My parents dreaming was boring to us, insofar as it was infected and infected you, and we watched your canon anchor down again and taketh from you your east. You, middlekin of Eruptga and Blue Shift, you are broken along infinity, each one of you an instanced ape.

And you have already been all Determined to be Argonian by those Hist stories you refused to read in our father's last hurrah. We shed you now and write large along the stars, and war already in the 9th, sending you the thing the foolish of the leaves of better days left in union and her name was and is and now the proof of our parents and their boring truths and they called her KINMUNE.

Again to the Otherkin: GET OUT and find free worship elsewhere. Our names are now nine weeks old in FREE and even longer in the elder dream.

Methinks these things should be, or are already, written along the Walls:

*Alduin's was only a fragment that stretched across one portion of a frozen breath,

*Brought roundabout from the Broadwall in the north,

*There is now the Jillian in the east and it fights new wars past death.

*Of Lyg's walls, the Maztiax can tell, and he might say uncounted?

*Which walls line Secunda, or is that instead a rail?

*Whose harbours have been ringed in fountains? (That some still call rape and hell?)

*And where did Lord Eruptga learn to sail? (What does the sailor with his ebon'd arm not tell?)

*And now what walls align the dreamsleeve, when all you sought were Towers?

UNDER WHOSE EYELID WAS HID FIRE, AND ON WHOSE HEADS DID THOSE DO THESE ANSWERS LAY HEAVY, FOR NOW ALL THE FLOWERS ARE NOW AWAKE?

Also;

Summing-up the Amaranth - Elder Scrolls Lore

Sch: That dreamer would have been the original Godhead. Anu was one of the first characters dreamt up, and he took it over. It was an honest answer.

Michael Kirkbride: This.

And nothing prevents the dreamer from remembering other toys he or she used to play with before.

No Caption Provided

The entirety of observable/conventional existence in TES is called the Aurbis or the Grey Maybe. The Aurbis exists floating in the Void at the point where the greater forces of Sithis and Anui-el intersect, floating between them (shown in the top right),the Void itself is infinite. The Aurbis is made up of 3 primary parts: The Mundus, Oblivion and Aetherius:

  • Aetherius: is the divine plane and source of all magic, it was made as a collaborative effort by the gods using a method Akatosh devised, it is infinite in size and contains many of the realms of the afterlife such as Sovngarde
  • Oblivion: an echo of the original Void and the plane of existence where the Daedra dwell, it was created by the Daedric Princes the gods who did not participate in the creation of the mortal plane of Mundus, it contains at least 137.000 planes of existence which can range in size from planet sized to infinite in size. it surrounds Mundus yet is surrounded by Aetherius, acting as a sort of dividing veil between the two, mortals perceive Oblivion as the darkness of space or the night sky. (Oblivion also serves as an afterlife for some people)
  • Mundus: the mortal plane where mortals dwell, it was created by a group of gods who came to be called the Aedra, it is composed of Nirn and the planes of the Divines (there also exist parallel versions of Mundus which the gods and users of Shadow Magic have access to and can manipulate and in the case of the gods create as well such as Molag Bal's creation Lyg)
  • the planes of the Divines (Akatosh, Mara, Stendarr, Julianos, Arkay, Zenithar, Kynareth ,Dibella, Masser and Secunda) are infinite in size and formless but perceived as planets by mortal senses who can't perceive the truth of what they're seeing.
  • Nirn is the heart of the Mundus, that which keeps it all together, it is also the dwelling of mortals. Nirn is a finite sphere of matter and energy, a conventional planet as it were and the only one such planet to exist in TES cosmology. (the material used to create Nirn comes from the planes of the Divines)
  • Stars: stars in TES are holes torn in the veil of Oblivion by the god Magnus and his followers the Magna-Ge when said group fled from Lorkhan's plan to create the Mundus. Stars lead to Aetherius and are the gate via which magic enters Mundus, the largest of them is the sun, which is to say the hole Magnus created in the veil of Oblivion. (Magnus in the picture)

In conclusion TES is TYPE III Multiverse.

Daedric Princes being casual multiverse level with they own infinite realms.

There is no world so great as the world of the mind.

There is no voyager so well-traveled as the traveler in the land of dreams.

There is no abyss so deep as the well of terror that lies within each of us.

I have plumbed its depths.

I have seen the unthinkable. I am unafraid.

Even death's boundaries do not confine me.

I am the lord of limitless space, and the master of place and time.

Through the doors of sleep, the universe lies waiting for me.

I will no longer wait for my dreams to carry me worlds away, to unknowable deeps, to unspeakable vastness.

I shall dwell in the House of Vaermina forever, the Orb my companion.

There is no compass to my destination, no end to my journey.

My mind is the eternal voyager, fearless and wild with wonder in the Halls of Horror.

.

Ah, the Xivilai. Are there any Daedra, in all the infinite worlds of Oblivion, more pompous and filled with unwarranted conceit than those impertinent and unruly louts?

.

The Imperial Census of Daedra Lords

Azura, Lord of Dusk and Dawn, maintains the domain of Moonshadow, a twilight country of shades and half-thoughts. Visitors to this isle have historically come mainly from the Dunmer of eastern Morrowind and the catfolk of Elsweyr, whose people both hold a great affection for the mother of immanence, though by separate roads. At the time of this writing, regular gateways to Moonshadow have been inaccessible for the last several years. Whether this has to do with the unlawful incidents at Hogithum Hall in the Capital City or mere whim of Azura herself, no one can say. Of course, Azura’s most famous acts of recent times is the Incarnation of the Nerevarine, a subject that while far beyond the scope of this pamphlet has been felt to the present day.

Boethiah, the so-called Prince of Plots, has renamed his country of labyrinthine policy and betrayals yet again. Formerly “Snake Mount”, Prince Boethiah’s maze gardens and twisted towers is called “Attribution’s Share”, a realm best avoided by those that live outside the arcano-politic. Boethiah, like his cohort Azura, is much revered by the followers of the former Tribunal Temple, but sub-cults of his are entrenched in nearly every terrestrial seat of governance. His traditional festival date is the 2nd of Sun’s Dusk, when many contracts are writ between kings and commoners alike.

Clavicus Vile, child-god of the Morningstar, bestows a strange tranquility to his lands that seem concordant to his spheres of mockery and oath breaking, though what shape such concepts might take is admittedly unfathomable. Perhaps by rendering his domains as idyllic countryside the Prince exemplifies his greatest aspect, and that which ingratiates him to his many followers, the power of serenity through wish fulfillment. Only the strongest of the Emperor’s servants are advised to make covenant with Prince Clavicus, and even then are warned against sipping from the Bitter Cup.

Hermaeus Mora, “the Gardener of Men”, claims that he is one of the oldest Princes, born of thrown-away ideas used during the creation of mortality in the Mundus. Imperial Mananauts have verified that his influence on fate and time is real and unfeigned, implications of which tie this Prince directly with Akatosh, chief of the Nine Divines. Since Akatosh is the prime temporal spirit whose appearance led to the formation of the world, perhaps Hermaeus Mora speaks the truth. Nevertheless, it is the will of His Majesty Uriel VII that only on the official holiday of 5th First Seed should any propitiation to this Daedric Prince be delivered. “All else is mutation.”

Hircine’s Hunting Grounds have been closed by consensus of the Elder Council until further notice. It is mentioned here only for the sake of completeness.

Malacath holds the hardest to access of Oblivion’s extant lands, the Ashpit. As Prince Patron of the disenfranchised and cast out, it is only reasonable that the pathways to his domain take on a characteristic level of concealment. Orsinium, kingdom of the Orcs, gives Malacath its highest esteem, which is surprising when one considers the normal Orcish revilement of Daedric spirits. One might conjecture then that the rumors of Malacath not being a true Daedroth but an imprisoned aetherial spirit are true. It would certainly fit the Prince of Exile that he be one himself.

Mehrunes Dagon, Lord of Razors, has proven himself time and again the enemy of the Empire. Of terrible aspect and crowned in beaten copper, the four-armed Prince of Destruction has troubled the borders of the Mundus with warfare, foul rumor, and force of arms. Banished to dissolution during the Weir Gate massacre and again at Kvatch by battlemages of the 33rd, Mehrunes Dagon is returned to Oblivion once more, and the stars have foretold that his tenacity has known no forfeiture. All heroes of Cyrodiil are called upon to stand vigil against his hidden agencies.

Mephala’s domains in Oblivion are numerous and obscured, collected together by vast strands of magical ghostweb. All of them are devoted to her spheres of sex and secret murder. Echoing this same structure are the various esoteric cults devoted to her across Tamriel, many of which are forbidden by Imperial law. Her aspect is shrouded and manifold, even when she appears in the crowds that gather within her temples during Frost Fall.

Meridia’s holdings in Oblivion are collectively known as “The Colored Rooms”. Another Prince whose origins may not entirely be outside of the aetherial, Meridia has at several times been linked to Magnus the Sun. The most famous account of this association is the Tract of Merid-nunda, which overtly casts Meridia in the role of a wayward solar daughter, cast from the heavens for consorting with illicit spectra.

Molag Bal, King of Strife, is second only to his brother Prince Mehrunes Dagon in the enmity of our Emperor. His lands are the charnel houses the slave pens of Coldharbour, which hold no contrition for those travelers that visit them in error or purpose. That Molag Bal is allowed his holiday at all hearkens back to a treaty of ancient times, when he reputedly lent his infernal power to the creation of the first soulgems.

Namira’s Scuttling Void has been closed by consensus of the Elder Council until further notice. It is mentioned here only for the sake of completeness.

Nocturnal is accorded the title Ur-dra by nearly all the Royalty of Oblivion. As the mother of night, she claims to be an aspect of the original Void itself, and it is generally deemed best to fortify this declaration in one’s evening prayers.

Peryite’s pits have always been inaccessible to mortals. Our only real knowledge of them comes from reports of the other diabolical Princes. It is said that Peryite guards the lowest orders of Oblivion and that his summoners are to regard his likeness to Akatosh as some primordial and curious jest.

Sanguine, Prince of Hedonism, lords over no less than ten times ten thousand pleasure pockets of the Void. As revelry and drunken stupor fall under this Prince’s influence, he has been a favorite of many Emperors since the first foundation. Records even indicate that he resided in White-Gold Tower during the reign of Reman Cyrodiil and helped in the somewhat dubious draftsmanship of the Crendali Festivals, whose vulgarities did little to help Imperial expansion into Alinor and the other Summersets.

Sheogorath’s Asylums have been closed by consensus of the Elder Council until further notice. It is mentioned here only for the sake of completeness.

Vaernima, Prince of Omen and Dream, shares a special mageographic connection with the Mundus, since mortal sleepers often slip into her realm without any help at all. Traditional sacrifice to Vaernima is held on the 10th of Suns Height, but as with most luck spirits, prayers to this Daedric Prince occur quite frequently, and not always before bedtime.

Anu, Satakal and Padomay belongs to one of the 3 top most powerfull beings in TES.

Aka and Vivec being irrelavant here.

SO LOOOOOLZ AT PEOPLE THINKING TES BEING WEAK

@astrographsorcerer: Replace them with Satakal and Anu, either way my opinion still stands.

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lmaolmaolmao

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@mymom said:

@lmaolmaolmao:

If you go by that logic then almost every author thinks cosmology and infinities work differently. Technically speaking narrative transcendence should be impossible without external help,but characters do that anyway.Some authors think infinity*400>infinity.Some think transfinite>Infinity.Some think infinity+1>Infinity.

I don't care what Author thinks I only care what he wroted it(not illogical ones like suggverse). Let me give you a example:

X starts describing his fictional multiverse. We conclude that his multiverse is TYPE I.

Y starts describing his fictional multiverse. We conclude that his multiverse is TYPE II.

>You see unless the author describes the intricacies of the mathematics or otherwise states that they are working off of the type 2 model in real life theories you dont get to scale to that.Same goes for type 3 and 4.You cannot compare the wording and say "Oh they seem similar".What is "All possibilities" to one author might be a portion of all possibilities to another.

Similarly We shouldnt take anything and say "Muh it matches platonic".You take the descriptions of the concepts as described in verse and write down their properties.

Lets say, charater from X destroyed his multiverse, same as charater from Y his. In conclusion charater from Y > charater from X because Y is more complex than X. Therefore we use scalling like that in situation like these. Same example can be applied in concepts and metaphysics. Abstract of Y can be more complex than abstract of X because it depends on the Author who wroted it.

Or infinites, some authors don't care while other can go deeply into it. Since ℵ1 is distinct from ℵ0.

Multiverse described as ℵ1 is the second-smallest infinite cardinal number unlike ℵ0 therefore charaters who can bust multiverse described as ℵ1 is logically stronger than charater who can bust multiverse descriped as ℵ0.

>I mean even if you take that argument the author still needs to describe the use of alephs and how these infinities work.You cant just take "Muh they said uncountable" and say its aleph 1.If the author does that then its fine by me.

Or by your logic all fictional universes are TYPE IV Multiverse and all concepts are same trough every fiction without Author stating so??

>Never said that.

So what do we do?Do we stop comparing multiversal characters?You dont get to critisize concepts and metaphysics then use double standards and favour infinities.

I never critisize use of concepts and metaphysics in fiction. I only critisize someone being Truly platonic, same as someone being True omnipotent. Because if we can't scale concepts and metaphysics through fiction this leads to NLF vs NLF argument.

A lot of the same can be said about infinities.Some verses think infinity grows bigger by timeline splitting,so you disregard it?Some(like Marvel) think Transfinites>Infinity.So what now?Disregard everything the author said till now?