Marvel Trio Easter Tournament FINALS - Magneto/Jean/Magik vs Binary/Xemnu/Vision [VOTE BY COMMENT]

Wrong picture smh

Mags gets fairly hard countered by Vision given his phasing is something he can't really do much of anything about: even his shields don't grant him the luxury of protection. Magik is next to useless against any of the heavy hitters here and wouldn't last very long against Binary. Jean is the only big shot here and ultimately she's going to be too busy with Xemnu regardless of positioning to help out everyone else, leaving them exposed.

Whatever way you spin it, the X-team just aren't fitted for this kind of trio.

I want to see comments before I make a decision.

Can Vision phase through electromagnetic manipulation? I ain't saying you are wrong. This just feels too specific for there to not be info on, so I am curious what Vision did for you to be confident about this scenario

He's never encountered it but considering Mags's only real defence to phasing was either to stop it before it happened or to shock the person if they attempted it (both methods wouldn't work here given Vision's durability is far more impressive than Shadowcat for obvious reasons) I can't see Mags being of much use against the move.

Kinda agree about Magik. The one thing I can say is that she can do the summoning thing again for this team as a distraction. For some reason, I thought I remembered Magik's sword nullifying telepathy, but I can't remember why......Sounds like a good excuse to reread stuff

This is also true, through the summoning might be more of a hindrance considering the demons don't discriminate between ally or enemy.

Wrong picture smh

Mags gets fairly hard countered by Vision given his phasing is something he can't really do much of anything about: even his shields don't grant him the luxury of protection. Magik is next to useless against any of the heavy hitters here and wouldn't last very long against Binary. Jean is the only big shot here and ultimately she's going to be too busy with Xemnu regardless of positioning to help out everyone else, leaving them exposed.

Whatever way you spin it, the X-team just aren't fitted for this kind of trio.

how is Magik useless when she's the most versatile character here?

Magik just needs to cloak mags and herself and i don't see what binary and vision can do

She's more or less useless because a lot of her tool kit is anti-magic based, which no one is here.

Magik already one shot vision while he was intangible

This sounds overtly filled with context. Cite this example and the issue please.

That would free up Mags vs binary and could double team her with spells. Don't see why binary would be immune to magic

She doesn't need to do so when she can practically dodge everything Magik can throw pretty easily. She's not fast whatsoever.

@professorrespect:

She's more or less useless because a lot of her tool kit is anti-magic based, which no one is here.

But she's a magic user and has hax and spells. She has cloaking spells, magical shields, energy manipulation spells, soul manip spells, hellfire spells, demons etc

Let's just face it through, most of these aren't going to be useful here against these lads. It's stuff that can be dodged or powered through.

She's even affected beings who are supposedly immune to magic like when she used a spell to make Mercury explode

Because of Mercury's properties, not because of the general spell itself. Internal durability is a thing as well.

This sounds overtly filled with context. Cite this example and the issue please.

Gallery

Sorry, I forgot the exact issue, it's in one of those tie-ines when Wanda was possessed by Chthon

Yep, full of context as expected. This was during Secret Invasion where Vision had been hacked and taken over by HYDRA forces, so he had no access to his usual memory banks and technique he had prior. Walking into her Soulsword is just general bad writing as well but that's a whole other thing.

She doesn't need to do so when she can practically dodge everything Magik can throw pretty easily. She's not fast whatsoever.

Magik from a physical standpoint should be the hardest one to hit here due to her teleportation. She's teleported out of a ton of blasts, attacks, explosions, etc. She's blindsided a flying cosmic being in orbit

This "cosmic thing" is just some random alien through, with no suggestions of impressive speed or anything really notable to mention.

@professorrespect:

Let's just face it through, most of these aren't going to be useful here against these lads. It's stuff that can be dodged or powered through.

How can you power through or dodge a cloaking spell or an energy manipulation spell? The counter for that would be magical resistance feats or sensing feats

I don't recall Magik ganking around with cloaking spells and there's like no energy to manipulate that is of use given what I've seen. The best is Binary and that's obviously not going to be able to be drained effectively.

Because of Mercury's properties, not because of the general spell itself. Internal durability is a thing as well.

Mercury's properties made her less susceptible to magic, but she still got affected. If talking about durablity and strength, Magik's been able to restrain and lift Juggernaut in the air

Lifting Juggs means very little here, no one is going to be effected by such a spell. Binary can still blast energy bolts that quite frankly she can't tank whatsoever and Vision's phasing makes that null and void.

Yep, full of context as expected. This was during Secret Invasion where Vision had been hacked and taken over by HYDRA forces, so he had no access to his usual memory banks and technique he had prior. Walking into her Soulsword is just general bad writing as well but that's a whole other thing.

The point is the Soul Sword can put him down while intangible. A lot of opponents have "walked into the Soul Sword". Vision isn't a speedster who can't be hit. He does get hit quite often

Oh yeah, he can be put down if he runs into it like a dumbass and forgoes all basic threat awareness. He doesn't also need to be a speedster when he's already way faster than Magik is given her limited speed and reaction.

Mags gets fairly hard countered by Vision given his phasing is something he can't really do much of anything about: even his shields don't grant him the luxury of protection. Magik is next to useless against any of the heavy hitters here and wouldn't last very long against Binary. Jean is the only big shot here and ultimately she's going to be too busy with Xemnu regardless of positioning to help out everyone else, leaving them exposed.

Whatever way you spin it, the X-team just aren't fitted for this kind of trio.

Moonstone affected Vision phasing form via gravity by making him heavy.

If Magneto can do the same this counters vision.

@professorrespect:

I don't recall Magik ganking around with cloaking spells and there's like no energy to manipulate that is of use given what I've seen. The best is Binary and that's obviously not going to be able to be drained effectively.

She hid the x-men and gotg from the slaughter lords, she hid the x-men from the Avengers until Cthon sensed her. She hid sapna from normal people and she's hid the x-men and avengers on Caps orders in the Kulan Gath saga. but somehow here she's not able to use them

So she's done it four times in very large groups against major threats and supervillains, of which none of this applies here.

Magik manipulated the energy of a fleet of sentinels by manipulating their energies internally controlling them

Fodder Sentinels doesn't sound very impressive to me.

and causing them to blow up

I doubt she'd blow up a well-known hero for no real reason.

Lifting Juggs means very little here, no one is going to be effected by such a spell. Binary can still blast energy bolts that quite frankly she can't tank whatsoever and Vision's phasing makes that null and void.

Magik has teleported multiple blasts out of the way at the same time and has teleported out of AOE attacks. I agree lifting Juggs means very little here but restraining him should matter here. Magik was able to trap kitty and prevent her from phasing

As stated, her speed is lacking in this field, I doubt she would be able to handle a full on assault.

Oh yeah, he can be put down if he runs into it like a dumbass and forgoes all basic threat awareness. He doesn't also need to be a speedster when he's already way faster than Magik is given her limited speed and reaction.

Vision speed is irrelevant when she can nearly instantly teleport away from him or his attacks

That teleportation is still based on human reactions through. She's not particularly fast for someone who relies on stuff beyond speed for a lead and it would only take a singular mistake to lose thusly.

@professorrespect:

So she's done it four times in very large groups against major threats and supervillains, of which none of this applies here.

Why wouldn't a team that has xenmu not be considered a major threat?

Because it's not in her general vicinity.

Fodder Sentinels doesn't sound very impressive to me.

Just one of these Sentinels took almost out a team of x-men.

With adaptive powers, but not their general potency, mind you.

I doubt she'd blow up a well-known hero for no real reason.

No reason? These opponents are attacking them

This is poor reasoning. By your own logic any OOC action can be justified by "well they are being attacked through" which naturally isn't how that works. Some actions (including blowing up well known superheroes!) are generally off the table unless under very specific conditions.

That same spell also allowed her to control the sentinels into attacking each other. She could turn vision into a teammate instead of an opponent

No backing to suggest this can be the case given Vision's natural difference in structure to purely mechanical Sentinels.

As stated, her speed is lacking in this field, I doubt she would be able to handle a full on assault.

That teleportation is still based on human reactions through. She's not particularly fast for someone who relies on stuff beyond speed for a lead and it would only take a singular mistake to lose thusly.

Lack of speed vs vision and Xenmu?

Vision isn't a slowpoke and Xemnu's going to be naturally busy with the other telepath.

Also, the reason why they get hit more is because they can actually take a hit and keep going. Magik has human-level durability and has gotten one shot a LOT more than the pair.

They get hit way more times than she does. Her powers are activated by thought

"thought" as a speed is useless to measure anything. Daredevil, Spidey, Jean, they all move at the speed of thought despite all being different in actuality. This is silly.

Let's take a look at your examples!

She doesn't need to move her limbs to move to another universe

Travel speed.

She's erected shields to protect x-men and gotg from a moon destroying blast

I imagine this is stupidly contextual as well.

She's repeatedly teleported x-men out of blasts and explosions

Quantify any of those.

She teleported Scott out of a lighting attack before the other x-men could react to it

Decent but it's not helping outside of a defensive motion.

She's teleported beams multiple beams coming on from different directions

Quantify the beams?

She has teleported on to spaceships hopping from galaxy to galaxy

This isn't even really a speed feat if she's just picking a area and going to it.

She's teleported out of a blitzing Canonball multiple times

Cannonball sucks ass most of the time in general lol. His speed feats at best are sucker punching Classic Quicksilver when he was distracted.

She's tele-blitzed Magneto

Mags has ass speed, for one.

and took out an Inhuman before both Inhumans and x-men could get to him

Again, means next to nothing.

@professorrespect:

Because it's not in her general vicinity.

I've already cited examples of her using these spells vs civilians and heroes

And? Xemnu's already busy here and she's most certainly not going to have the free time to do what is being discussed.

With adaptive powers, but not their general potency, mind you.

This is poor reasoning. By your own logic any OOC action can be justified by "well they are being attacked through" which naturally isn't how that works. Some actions (including blowing up well known superheroes!) are generally off the table unless under very specific conditions.

Magik doesn't have regular morals

Everyone kinda knows that, but we aren't saying she's blowing up random superheroes either. If yes, provide consistent examples not shrouded in context.

No backing to suggest this can be the case given Vision's natural difference in structure to purely mechanical Sentinels.

So a spell of energy manipulation from the scrolls of Agamotto that she learned from Strange will somehow not affect Vision

If it's effecting machines purely off them being machines then yes, it won't. Doesn't help there's no detail to your examples either to where they can be inquired further.

"thought" as a speed is useless to measure anything. Daredevil, Spidey, Jean, they all move at the speed of thought despite all being different in actuality. This is silly.

The idea that Magik gets statued in this fight is sillier

Did I say as such? I merely said she's not fast enough. This is basic deflection to get away from the vagueness of what "speed of thought" actually is so it's pretty simple to see through that.

Also, the reason why they get hit more is because they can actually take a hit and keep going. Magik has human-level durability and has gotten one shot a LOT more than the pair.

Except that I've showed Vision getting one shot by her

When he literally floated to her sword while also re-programmed to act completely different then yes, of course.

So it boils down to who get hits first

Phasing shits all over what she can reliably do to him in the duration it would realistically take.

Travel speed.

It shows she can be in a different place out of range from her opponent in an instant

"at the speed of thought" tier vagueness again.

I imagine this is stupidly contextual as well.

The Soul Sword Scan example was proof that the Sword can one-shot Vision while intangible

Again, contextual on the fact that she can one shot him......if he runs into the blade body-first. That's context.

Quantify any of those.

Quantify the speed of Vision's attacks

Asking a question to a question is poor reasoning. If you can't quantify your feats, there's no point giving them out if you can't justify why the feat is impressive.

This isn't even really a speed feat if she's just picking a area and going to it.

Teleporting on top of ships capable of moving from galaxy to galaxy in a short amount of time shows she can land on top of anyone and blindside anyone in this fight

Again, if she's just picking the ship and then going to it, there's no speed involved in that given it's a static location. Otherwise what, this is intended to imply that she can bamf at galaxy-crossing speeds? That's a high-end that practically debunks itself.

Half of the stuff mentioned Magik barley does anymore

What does she do these days then?

@professorrespect: I fail to see how travel speed doesn't, in some way, equal combat speed. You have to be able to perceive where you're going, do you not?

Umm, not how travel speed work...

You can react and fight with light speed and not be able to travel with light speed also. It can be used the other way around for travel speed.

How is that not how it "work"? I can't exactly fly lightspeed without being able to perceive at that level. Most characters using travel speed don't travel in a straight line with no obstructions; they have to maneuver. If they do, they have to perceive where they're going. There's definitely a certain level of reactionary speed involved in travel speed.

Perception has nothing to do with combat speeds. we can perceive a flash from a lightning bolt which is light speed but our reaction speed is far less.

Umm, what? The flash is light speed in the same way that everything we see is light speed. Light is literally what we see.That has nothing to do with perception speed.

We perceive lightning, because the flash lasts an entire .2 seconds (well, technically it’s a series of much shorter flashes,, but we don’t have the perception speed to process all that)...

@kasya_carey: No, no, no, no. That is not perception speed. Perception speed (in regards to vision) is the speed at which your brain can detect, process, and react to the light your eyes are picking up. It has nothing to do with the speed of the light itself, that’d be absurd.

All light is light speed. The flash of lightning is no more “light speed” than the light coming off your hand is, when you stare at it blankly.

I didn’t say anything about travel speed. I’m responding to your arguments about perception speed and reaction speed, which absolutely DO go hand in hand. Perception is quite literally a form of reaction, as it is quit literally the speed at which your brain is able to ”react” to a stimulus.

like 25% of the stuff she used to do in her classic days

like 25% of the stuff she used to do in her classic days

@professorrespect:

The issue is that those actions are defensive by nature and don't give her any advantage here beyond more time to sit around and get sniped by the faster characters here.

How do they snipe someone they can't see or someone who can teleport blasts aways or can put up magical shields. Magik can cast illusions

There's only so much that Magik can feasibly do in the time she has, through. You seem to have her be doing more than a dozen things at once and then some.

what if she makes herself look like Carol and make Carol look like her? Again, it's not going to be "in character to use that move" cause apparently in this battle Magik is only allowed to wave her sword and stand there till she's hit.

Pyro already made this point and it's pretty well debunked by the fact that these demons aren't going to discriminate between allies and others. They won't attack Magik for obvious reasons, but everyone else is fair game so it's pretty risky unless she's going to protect them as well.

Not really, there are lot of instances Magik has summoned demons even when she's around teammates

So where's the proof that they don't attack just everyone around them?

You notice how I ask for "superheroes" and not "random bad guys"? That's because your example was referring to doing so to Vision and whatnot. She literally asks if they are human or not as a referral to do what she then does.

I've said she already has blown up Mercury a fellow teammate

Mercury was contextual in the first place, hence why I asked for tangible examples. There doesn't seem to be any.

She's also lit Iceman with hellfire just for laughs

Which is as you say was basically a prank.

Ok, but is the spell based on mechanics, enchantments, like what is the nature of the spell itself and how does it function? Your scans show a slow moving dragon making some of them explode: cool, but that's not very effective to individuals that don't function quite the same way.

Her spell was able to control multiple sentinels at the same time. The dragon was tearing through their armor but the spell made them attack each other. Similar to TP i have no idea how Vision avoids that

Similar to before, is the spell focused on controlling their mechanics or a enchantment?

That's teleportation, which isn't necessary speed in itself, it's just fast travel. It being as "fast as thought" doesn't help either given there's no consistency to what that actually means given it seems to be used for virtually everyone at some point or another.

It's still an advantage and in battle and Magik abuses it more than most Marvel characters

It doesn't help given there's no speed behind this teleportation, making it very easy to telegraph and counter.

...apart from the fact he was a bad Vision that had his entire memory banks erased and reprogrammed then yes, of course, he was the exact same character, just minus all of his experience, technique, and intellect.

What was he doing that was so out of character that all this lack of experience and intellect provided?

Running head-first into a weapon seems pretty silly barring the fact that Vision literally had nothing of his typical tendencies.

As seen above your examples are too generic and your "speed" is practically non-existent bar some dodgy examples.

I have yet to see example of the opponents speed that can't be countered by her teleportation. She teleports out of Thor's Aoe blast or mjolnir throw She blocks human toches blast with her sword, teleports out of Spectrums blitz

Quantify any of these to a proper level?

She's too slow for Vision and Binary, yes. She's not moving at their speeds and she's always been defined tiers below what they encounter.

Binary maybe, but given this battle is on earth in an atmosphere I doubt Binary is going lightspeed

She doesn't need to go lightspeed to tag someone like this lol. Let's not start pushing up the goalposts from what they were before.

Again, if she was just picking the ship to teleport to in the first place, the size or speed of the ship means

What's the difference between porting into a small ship traveling from galaxy to galaxy and vision flying through the atmosphere?

Because the actual teleporting being tangible to a singular location would mean that the speed of a object wouldn't actually matter if it simply tracked and teleported to it in the first place. It's not up to her in that case.

Iron Man's speed is mostly non-existent as a thing unless he's fighting Living Laser or whatnot. Every null-speed tank has had a fair crack on him, hell half of his rogues gallery are all slowpokes that still manage to tag him numerous times.

What makes Vision so much faster than Iron-man?

Namely because of his ablity to react and dodge tangible foes with his phasing and whatnot. The act of enabling phasing in itself gives him immensely fast reflexes and his computerised mind means that he's also processing variables a lot faster than most humans.

@professorrespect: @firelordmagnus: -_-

Magneto has literally unphased Kitty who unlike vision has always been stated as phasing at an atomic level.

He's one shot phased vision twice before.

He's infamously located and brought a phased object back from several solar systems away.

Visions gets trashed here.

Stop.

As far as the rest of the battle....idk. because Binary shenanigans...

Is there any real difference between the way Vision phases vs how Kitty phases?

They both function significantly different when it comes to how they function as a whole. Mags typically has to use feedback loops or other tricks to get around phasing in the first place with the latter.

Using his biggest meme high-end when current Mags hasn't been on that level for a very long while due to a mix of anti-hero nerfing and actual nerfs post depowering is dodgy reasoning etc. He got a nice Mars feat but he still has a long way to go until he's doing Breakworld bullet stuff.

Vision most certainly doesn't get "trashed" here given the info already provided.