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#1 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

The Setting is at twilight.   The moon is rising and the sun is setting. Only the exterior of the island is on limit.   Entering buildings is not allowed.  The location is unpopulated.   If a character is knocked into the surrounding waters, they are considered eliminated via BFR.

 
 

 

Rules:



- Please Quote or Reply to the person you are debating with. This avoids confusion as to who you were talking to and makes it easier to pick up arguments if one person has to leave for a while. It is going to be necessary with the number of people that will be arguing at once, so please follow this rule.
-Both Teams are aware of the situation.
-All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified.
- You ONLY have 25 points to construct your team. You will be disqualified if you are over this amount.
-Victory is by death, knockout, BFR or incapacitation.
-Team chemistry does come into play.
- There is no prep time, and teams have absolutely no knowledge of each other prior to the match.
-Characters with guns have unlimited ammo unless specified otherwise.
-Characters with bows/throwing knives have unlimited arrows/knives unless specified otherwise.
-Characters still need to reload.                                                                                                                                                  
-Your team MUST consist of at least 2 characters.                                                                                                      
-You may not use more than 3 add ons for a single character.   Team add ons do not contribute to this total.                                             
-No tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, or BFR.
-If a debater fails to show up for an extended period of time (greater than a week) then the moderators have a judgment call as to disqualify them.
-Winning teams will be immortalized in the , and their teams are off-limits for future tournaments.
-Assume characters will not be freaked out or question if another version of them is on the team (aka Winter Soldier and Bucky Cap, Bone claw & adamantium Wolverine, Ult Cap and 616 Cap, Venom Gargan and Scorpion, so on and so on)    

 
Team k4tz:

 13- Ord 
5- Kraven (Alyosha) 
 
1- Boom, baby! - 3 of each for your team: flash bangs, incendiary grenades, sonic grenades, claymores, tear gas grenades     
3– I am the alpha and the omega - Begin the match with full knowledge of your foes abilities, traits, powers and potential weaknesses     
3 – Use Protection – Give 1 member of your team vibranium armor for their chest and back only. NOTE: This will not hinder the character’s speed.    

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#2 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn.Good luck you guys.

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#3 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
Appreciated. 
 
Which also reminds me that I have to compile a team.
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#4 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Is that Dinobot as your avatar Morph? I love Dinobot, easily the best character of the Beast Wars.

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#5 Posted by vance_astro (90093 posts) - - Show Bio

DedmanWalkin..how come you use the default avatar?

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#6 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin said:
" Is that Dinobot as your avatar Morph? I love Dinobot, easily the best character of the Beast Wars. "
It is, and I agree.
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#7 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

I am relatively lazy and I have difficulty picking one. Keeping up with who my current favorite character would take an inexorable amount of time of which I am too lazy to keep up with. So, mohawked evil guy is okay for me and my laziness.

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#8 Posted by spiderpigbart (2716 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm interested in seeing the team that Morph is putting together.

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#9 Edited by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
 Marvel Knights (I just like the name)
 
Daken (current)
Daredevil (4 billy clubs)
Spider-man (current)
 

1- Medic! – 1 spray cansiter that can restore someone to full health, 1 use only.   Cannot use if character is already eliminated.

1 – We are one - Telepathic Link - Telepathically links your entire team.  NOTE: If a character on your team is struck by EMP, this is disabled for the entire team for the given time.

1 - Why Can’t We Be Friends? – Makes your team respect one another and follow each others commands and orders.   In short, they’ll function as a unit and any bad blood / tempers won’t exist.   They will cooperate with one another. 
 
1 – Living in LA’s lovely smog – Your team is immune to pheromones released by Omega Red, Daken, Spider-Woman and effects from tear gas and Mysterio’s hallucinogenic gas.

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#10 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_:
Nice team
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#11 Posted by Precise (21954 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: Interesting team =)
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#12 Edited by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:

" @Morpheus_: Nice team "

 @Precise said:
" @Morpheus_: Interesting team =) "


 
Thank you. But do not praise the tenor for clearing his throat.
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#13 Posted by Precise (21954 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: I paid to see him sing :p
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#14 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
" @Morpheus_: I paid to see him sing :p "
You paid? I demand a percentage!
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#15 Posted by Precise (21954 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @Precise said:
" @Morpheus_: I paid to see him sing :p "
You paid? I demand a percentage! "
Give me the show you promised and we'll see xP
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#16 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@Precise said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @Precise said:
" @Morpheus_: I paid to see him sing :p "
You paid? I demand a percentage! "
Give me the show you promised and we'll see xP "
 
(insert Optimus Prime voice) One shall stand...
 
 
No Caption Provided


 
One shall end up webbed up.
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#17 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_:
LOL
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#18 Posted by Matezoide2 (16064 posts) - - Show Bio

*steals Morpheus`s scan to use against Ferro later*

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#19 Posted by Ferro Vida (34317 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide: Good luck with that xD
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#20 Posted by Matezoide2 (16064 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida: 
thanks,i know i will need xD
 
just a warning,i wont be able to reply to you now
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#21 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @Precise said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @Precise said:
" @Morpheus_: I paid to see him sing :p "
You paid? I demand a percentage! "
Give me the show you promised and we'll see xP "
 
(insert Optimus Prime voice) One shall stand...
 
 
 
 


 
One shall end up webbed up. "

Like father...Not like son ;) 
 
We'll get this party started tomorrow, unless you want kick it off.
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#22 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" Like father...Not like son ;)  We'll get this party started tomorrow, unless you want kick it off. "
Nah, let's increase the suspense of the crowd by postponing it a little more.
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#23 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Like father...Not like son ;)  We'll get this party started tomorrow, unless you want kick it off. "
Nah, let's increase the suspense of the crowd by postponing it a little more. "

LOL.  Sounds good.  Tomorrow morning I'll have access to my Alyosha / Ord scans.
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#24 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


MANDATORY NOTE: 
 
When reading this debate, one must listen to epic music. 
  
   
 
Now that we've dealt with that, let's get this party started. 
 
Daken, Spider-Man and Daredevil working as a single unit is indeed a dangerous team.  Spider-Man's speed, agility, and strength, Daredevil's radar and fighting abilities, and to make matters worse, Daken with his lethal methods, laced claws which can bring virtually anyone (Earth-born) to their knees, and pheromones to make a foe lose focus and fight like a fool.  Thankfully for me, I have a team I believe can overcome these odds.  Hopefully you'll agree, too, once we're through here. 
  
Since my team consists of two characters who are not widely known, I'll elaborate on both of their abilities...Hopefully after this, everyone will have a fair understanding of their capabilities:

 
 
Ord:  Ord is essentially in his own right, a team-buster.  I dare to say he'd be able to take on your team by his lonesome.  Would he take a majority?  I'm not certain, but I do know he's more than capable of giving your team a run for their money.  Ord is an alien from the planet Breakword.  He's fought for decades, killing all of the greatest warriors on his homeworld to earn the right to travel to Earth, in an effort to save his own planet. Due to his extensive training and "kill or be killed" experience, he's become an astonishing fighter, which will be proven below shortly.     As a species, they're far superior to the standard mutant.  The pack an undefined amount of superhuman strength, which has proven signifcant enough to harm a character as durable as Colossus with strikes and even effectively apply nerve strikes, despite his high level of durability. Their durability is also extremely high, making them capable of withstanding multiple blows from characters sporting the same strength range as Colossus.  To make them even more durable, they (Ord) wear a battle armor.  This has been shown to be capable of deflecting an optic blast as well (which will be shown below, as well).  Ord also equips a barbed blade.  He boasts this weapon can cut through any material on Earth.  He has also been able to drop Wolverine with it by using a single slash through his gut (based on the damage, I presume the blade went extremely deep, ripping apart his internal organs in the torso).  Ord is also capable of flight, however we only saw him use this one, and it was to catch a flying mutant (Wing, I believe was his name).
    
 
 Now, your patience will be rewarded.  Here are the scans to back his abilities: 
 
 
Ord proving he's a team buster.  Alone, he can take down the Astonishing X-Men, consisting of Cyclops, Emma Frost, Kitty Pryde, Wolverine & Beast.  The team is saved when Lockheed appears and hits Ord in the face point blank with a flame attack. 
 

 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 

   
     
 
 Next, proving the strength to not only harm Colossus (in his armor) with strikes, but effectively use a nerve strike as well.  NOTE: The outfit being worn is not an "armor", but instead a suit required for surviving near the core of a factory.  They were under the believe that having Colossus skin touching it would save their planet from certain doom. NOTE, PART 2: This is actually not Ord battling Colossus, but instead a high ranking female official from the planet.  She has only seventeen years of experience, where-as Ord has decades.  If she can accomplish that, imagine what a superior combatant could do?

 
 


 
 


 
 

   
 
     
 
 

Now in order for Morpheus_'s team to defeat Ord with striking attacks (from Daredevil or Spider-Man), they would need to possess the force of a fully enraged Colossus...Who happened to attack Ord from behind.  NOTE:  Colossus is literally bloodlusted here.  Ord revived him after his "death" and has been keeping him locked away, torturing him for years.   

 
 
 
 
 



 
 

 Another example of Ord's strength (being able to plow through what appears to be a thick wall).  This is where he also makes the claim his blade can cut through any material on Earth. 

 
 

That covers all of the essentials for Ord, IMO. In fear of having internet explorer glitch or get an error, I'll post this and next I would like to establish Alyosha's skills.  If someone could please make a post, I would greatly appreciate it (this is my second post in a row and require one more before I can post again).
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#25 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
Alyosha's turn.
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#26 Posted by Precise (21954 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Impressive post
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#27 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

dear god, internet explorer? are you insane?

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#28 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

Next up is Alyosha, the son of Kraven.  Due to his father's experimenting with potions, Alyosha was born with superhuman attributes.  Just like his father, he can run 60mph, sports high levels of reaction timing, durability, a unique fighting technique, and superhuman strength (1-2 tons). He took after his father a great deal and picked up the Kraven mantle, wearing his father's attire and mastering the use of his weapons.  Through his relatively short appearances, he's had quite a few feats I believe are worthy of noting: 
 
Feat #1: Preping against Venom (Brock).  He's able to hold his own against Brock in a close range encounter, luring him into a flame trap he set up. 

 
 


 
 


 
 

Next, a demonstration of both Alyosha's fighting abilities and strength. 

 
 
 
Further expanding his fighting capabilies by taking on (debatably) one of the top hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel U 


 
 

   
 
 


 
 

 
 


 
 


 
 

Next, his accuracy with poison tipped darts.  As you can see, he's capable of tagging an in motion Spider-Man through proper use of his weapons, even after his senses alert him of danger. 


 
 

Now that everyone hopefully has a better understanding of the combatants on my team, I'll begin my post as to why I believe my team will best Morph's.
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#29 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

"The pack an undefined amount of superhuman strength, which has proven signifcant enough to harm a character as durable as Colossus with strikes and even effectively apply nerve strikes, despite his high level of durability. 

 
Ord's undefined strength level varies in between 800 lbs, and 25 tons (that is the strength specification for class 4 strength, as given by Marvel), with the upper limit of that category being the most likely one. Taking that into account, it is clear that for Ord to truly inflict harm to Colossus on more than just a superficial level, either his technique is coming into play (even though he is straightforwardly punching Colossus in the scans), or his strength level is erroneously ranked, one way, or the other. As an observation, Colossus has withstood hits from beings with far superior strength than the listed one for Ord (even if his strength is the maximum given for the class 4 strength class - 25 tons). 
 

  He boasts this weapon can cut through any material on Earth.  He has also been able to drop Wolverine with it by using a single slash through his gut (based on the damage, I presume the blade went extremely deep, ripping apart his internal organs in the torso). 


 
This is strictly theoretical, though. There are several substances on Earth that, from the top of my head, Ord's mysterious blade would have trouble cutting through, if at all. I also think that being able to land such a devastating strike on Wolverine is more so a testament of his technique and skill while using the blade, rather than actual proof of the blade's all-penetrating qualities.  
 
Permit me to illustrate.
 
Note that the presentation of these scans is done for no reason other than proving that something that is definitely not capable of cutting through every terrestrial substance (far from it, in fact), can inflict a similar injury to the same man: Wolverine. 

 
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And while it is obvious that this is by no means a fight situation, Logan being restrained is insignificant, for the sole reason that the scans are not a measure of Daken's skill, but of his bone claws' ability to produce the same effect as Ord's blade. Also, this is Daken far before bonding his claws to the Muramasa blade, in case anyone questioned that.
 

 NOTE, PART 2: This is actually not Ord battling Colossus, but instead a high ranking female official from the planet.  She has only seventeen years of experience, where-as Ord has decades.  If she can accomplish that, imagine what a superior combatant could do? 


 I am a bit sceptic to that, even though I am not implying that Ord could not replicate the same effect, if given the chance. 
 
Being trained, or fighting for a greater amount of time definitely results in superior experience, but not necessarily in superior skill. It is conceivable for someone to have trained for a lesser amount of time, and yet still be equal, or even superior to someone else. Also, unless Ord and the unknown (at least to me) female official have received the same training, and knowledge of pressure point applications, the example isn't a direct reference to Ord's own skill. Being a superior fighter to her (which I do not question) also does not mean that he is aware of every single fighting style that she knows. Superior fighters may still be inferior to some specific field to other, inferior ones. For instance, while it is undeniable that Steve Rogers is a superior fighter to Daredevil, his ability to use pressure point techniques at the same level as he does, is questionable, to say the least.
 
Again, I am not saying Ord could not accomplish the same, just that the example is not definite proof of it.

 

 

Now in order for Morpheus_'s team to defeat Ord with striking attacks (from Daredevil or Spider-Man), they would need to possess the force of a fully enraged Colossus...Who happened to attack Ord from behind.  NOTE:  Colossus is literally bloodlusted here.  Ord revived him after his "death" and has been keeping him locked away, torturing him for years.   


 
An impressive example of durability, but directly attacking Ord would be far from my preferable offensive strategy against him.
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#30 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


I believe my team would win due to the follow 3 reasons: 
 
-Prep time, granting knowledge of who they're against, as well as their weaknesses. 
-Advanced grenades, allowing them to help manipulate the course of the battle. 
-The combined fighting capabilities of Ord and Kraven.         
 

K4tzm4n, why is prep important here?

Excellent question, random comicvine member!  The "prep" will first and most importantly allow my team to know who they're up against, what their powers entail, and their potential weaknesses.  This means:  

-My team knows the sonic grenades can hinder Daredevil's ability.  One cannot assume this will simply render him useless, though.  He's still more than capable of fighting well under these conditions, but every advantage my team can have they will take advantage of to the fullest.  I'll address how this comes into play in the next point.  This also means they know of Daken's abilities, and would agree on him being the highest level threat.  IMO, this means Ord would make it his personal goal to eliminate Daken ASAP...And as previously demonstrated, his blade is more than capable of doing so, and he's certainly packing the technical attributes to pull of the same feat as he did against Wolverine.  Ord is also packing the skill to take on any two of the team while Kraven occupies the other.  Against Spider-Man, he'll likely lose, but just like his father, he is capable of giving him a decent fight and keeping him occupied as Ord defeats the others.  IMHO, my team would make it a priority for Daken to face Ord, knowing he would be able to quickly eliminate Alyosha, turning it into a 3v1, despite Alyosha's vibranium armor (covering his chest/back).  I'll address why Kraven should be able to best Daredevil in the next paragraph.  So in short, with prep I see my team working as a single unit.  Initially, they would rely on Kraven's senses to merely lead them towards the enemy team, hopefully meeting them half way.  I also don't see Morph's team camping their spawn (based on the personalities on the team), so I believe it's fair to assume we'd meet half way.  Ord would focus his efforts on Daken and Spider-Man or Daredevil, as Kraven merely occupies Spider-Man or Daredevil.  How would they accomplish this?  I see it being rather simple, Kraven would not take the lead.  Ord would, but not by far.  Also, I find it extremely hard to believe anyone would flank them, since Alyosha is a master of tracking and sports enhanced senses, which means he may not know who is moving into a position to flank, but is perfectly aware of a character attempting to do so.  He could inform Ord and the two would rush this foe, likely quickly taking down whoever would be foolish enough to venture off on their own against my duo. 
 

Why are your grenades important?

Two good questions in a row! You deserve a cookie!  The grenades are important because this will allow my team to dish out a variety of radial and projectile attacks, furthering their options of offensive and even defensive capabilities. 
 
-As stated before, my team has prep, blessing them with the knowledge of who they're up against, their abilities...As well as weaknesses.  Daredevil is on the opposing team and thankfully, we have sonic grenades.  Right as the encounter begins, my team knows to lob a sonic grenade at the opposing team.  Like I previously stated, this will not hinder DD useless by any means, however, it will stun him for the brief second of the explosion, as well as hinder his radar.  This grants Kraven the one second he needs to fire an accurate posion dart, tagging Daredevil.  This will clearly hinder his abilities...But more importantly, render him virtually useless.  At this point, the logical choice is for him to use the health spray, already wasting what in my opinion, is an essential factor in Morph's team.  Now, as I've said before, this will grant them other offensive / defensive capabilities.  I can see Kraven setting up claymores rather quickly as they travel, so if things aren't going his way, he could fall back, luring them into the explosives.  It is VERY unlikely anyone on Morph's team is foolish enough to be eliminated by this, but it does grant Alyosha mere seconds to regain composure and plan on his feet.  This also grants my team flash bangs, incendiary grenades, and tear gas grenades.  Each of these can be used at any time to stun, incapacitate or temporarily distract any of my foes.  And when it's 3v2, every second of having an advantage counts.  Ord successfully blinding and deafening Daken for even a second is a second for him to land a critical slash with his blade, or a powerful hook across his face.  The same is applied to Spider-Man.  Obviously not Daredevil (the noise would hinder him slightly, but not enough to any real impact, IMHO).  However, that's just the flash bang.  We still have 3 high explosive grenades.  The one time one was used against Daredevil (DD #131), it successfully knocked him out of the air and stunned him long enough for Bullseye to challenge him and then flee.  There are also tear gas greandes which I see as being less of a factor, but can still come into play.  For example, if Ord believes he is in danger of Daken potentially tagged him, he can apply that or a flash directly at his feet, granting him the chance to leap backwards and regain focus, or even rush forward, taking advantage of the momentary impact of the device.  All in all, I think the grenades provide me a great deal of advantages-- whether it's hindering DD's ability to dodge an accurate posion arrow, setting an enemy on fire, stunning them for mere seconds, or creating a method of escaping a dangerous scenario. 
 

Ord and Alyosha have skills...So what? They're up against DAKEN, SPIDER-MAN, and DAREDEVIL!

I'm well aware of this, loyal reader of this debate.  However, with the combined advantages of  prep and grenades, I feel adding Alyosha's and Ord's skills grants them the ability to win.  As I showed, Ord is a force to be reckoned with.  If you review his battle with the X-Men again, you'll see he blocks Cyc's optic blast (AS Wolverine is leaping at him) at an angle so it hits Kitty, counter punches Wolverine (BEFORE he reaches him via leap) and slices his stomach WHEN Beast is finally able to attack.  One must assume this all happened in a matter of mere seconds, given the speed of Wolverine and Cyclops' optic blast.  Do I need to throw in his decades of fighting experience as well?  Individually, Ord should have no real issue with any of these combatants.  Spider-Man would be a nuisance for a short amount of time, attempting to inflict webbing with his damage or use of environment...But none of that would simply add up to being enough to even hinder him.  In character, Spider-Man will attempt to use his strength, perhaps going for a haymaker across Ord's face.  As seen with his reaction timing, I have no doubt in my mind he's capable of tagging Parker (with his blade, too).  Daken, as I said before, proves the bigges threat, and is exactly why Ord will make it his goal to eliminate him first.  Since we saw he had no issue with his father, I fail to believe he'd have trouble taking down Daken BEFORE the pheromones could hinder his performance.  Also, this is rather silly, but IMO a valid point...KNOWING of Daken's abilities, Ord could even hold his breath as he approaches Daken, further limiting the impact of the pheromones.  And Daredevil should stand virtually no chance against a character such as Ord.  We've seen Daredevil suffer against the likes of Captain America, Scorpion, Kraven (father), the Kingpin, and various others.  Ord is simply above him...Which is why, IMO, the logical approach for Morph's team would be to have DD assault Aloysha and Spider-Man/Daken take on the larger threat, who they have no knowledge of.  Now onto Alyosha.  Because I'm under the belief Murdock will assault him, Alyosha should immediately hurl a sonic grenade, breifly hindering his senses.  Because of his speed/reflexes, after tossing the sonic grenade, ALoysha should already have his blow-dart applied and aimed...And right as the sonic explodes, the dart is deployed, tagging Daredevil and seeping poison into his bloodstream.  At this point, Daredevil really has no choice but to use the first aid spray, unless of course, he wishes to die.  Even without being drugged, Alyosha should be able to keep Daredevil occupied (thank GOD he isn't bloodlusted! lol).  As seen with Rhino and T'Challa, ALyosha is a formidable hand-to-hand combatant, and should be able to engage Daredevil in a lengthy bout.  His vibranium outfit should help him with absorbing additional damage, too.  As this carries on, Ord swifty eliminates Spider-Man and Daken, taking no second to boast or taunt the duo (and bringing the assortment of grenades to full use), fully aware of Daken's abilities.  At this point, it really doesn't matter if Alyosha survives, because he accomplished the overall goal: Keep the third member out of the battle long enough for Ord to eliminate the bigger threats.  At that point, a weakened Daredevil stands a 0% chance against Ord.  I'm sure if you read the previous posts regarding Ord, you'd agree, no?
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#31 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


Ord's undefined strength level varies in between 800 lbs, and 25 tons (that is the strength specification for class 4 strength, as given by Marvel), with the upper limit of that category being the most likely one. Taking that into account, it is clear that for Ord to truly inflict harm to Colossus on more than just a superficial level, either his technique is coming into play (even though he is straightforwardly punching Colossus in the scans), or his strength level is erroneously ranked, one way, or the other. As an observation, Colossus has withstood hits from beings with far superior strength than the listed one for Ord (even if his strength is the maximum given for the class 4 strength class - 25 tons). 

Whether you agree with his displays or not, it is all we have to go by for his abilities.  It was established three times that members of his species boast the strength to harm Colossus.  Perhaps they're indeed stronger than the handbook lists?  It wouldn't be too far fetched, considering it ranks Kraven/Punisher above Daredevil in fighting abilities and even downgraded Bucky's when he became Captain America.  I'd assume it's a poor ranking on behalf of the handbook, if anything. 
 
  

This is strictly theoretical, though. There are several substances on Earth that, from the top of my head, Ord's mysterious blade would have trouble cutting through, if at all. I also think that being able to land such a devastating strike on Wolverine is more so a testament of his technique and skill while using the blade, rather than actual proof of the blade's all-penetrating qualities.   

I wasn't using that example to prove it is capable of cutting through harder materials...It would be a bit foolish to consider Wolverine's flesh, muscle and organs a substance to boast cutting through.  I just showed that he is skilled with it, and can drop Wolverine (who is notorious for taking a lot of damage before dropping) with one slice.  So I see no reason why he can't accomplish the same against his son, Daken.  And unfortunately, Ord wasn't around long enough to demonstrate the true cutting capabilities of his blade.  I'd presume if he makes that claim, it works in a similiar function as a lightsaber.  It has the ability to cut through any Earth-based substance, but would require additional force and/or time to actually penetrate certain materials.  Not that this matters much for the debate, though, since no one on your team has anything he wouldn't logically be capable of slicing. 
 

Note that the presentation of these scans is done for no reason other than proving that something that is definitely not capable of cutting through every terrestrial substance (far from it, in fact), can inflict a similar injury to the same man: Wolverine. 
 

 
 


 

 
 
 
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And while it is obvious that this is by no means a fight situation, Logan being restrained is insignificant, for the sole reason that the scans are not a measure of Daken's skill, but of his bone claws' ability to produce the same effect as Ord's blade. Also, this is Daken far before bonding his claws to the Muramasa blade, in case anyone questioned that.

Again, I wasn't using him one-shotting Wolverine as a feat demonstrating the blades ability to cut through any substance.  Also, what were the conditions here? It obviously looks like Wolverine has been held captive.  Is he perhaps in a weakened condition here? 
  
 

I am a bit sceptic to that, even though I am not implying that Ord could not replicate the same effect, if given the chance. 
 
Being trained, or fighting for a greater amount of time definitely results in superior experience, but not necessarily in superior skill. It is conceivable for someone to have trained for a lesser amount of time, and yet still be equal, or even superior to someone else.

I agree with you 100%.  However, like I said, Ord earned the right to travel to Earth by killing the best fighters on his planet.  While I'd assume the female is skilled, I think it's fair to assume as well that Ord is the best the planet has to offer.  Otherwise, she could have gone to accomplish the goal hereself, yes? 
 
 

 

 Also, unless Ord and the unknown (at least to me) female official have received the same training, and knowledge of pressure point applications, the example isn't a direct reference to Ord's own skill. Being a superior fighter to her (which I do not question) also does not mean that he is aware of every single fighting style that she knows. Superior fighters may still be inferior to some specific field to other, inferior ones. For instance, while it is undeniable that Steve Rogers is a superior fighter to Daredevil, his ability to use pressure point techniques at the same level as he does, is questionable, to say the least.


 

The example of applying a nerve strike isn't to illustrate Ord could do the same to anyone on your team, but instead showing the amount of strength their species is capable of.  I don't think a  pressure point is required at all on his behalf.  She only did so to manipulate him and control his movement.  Ord isn't looking to manipulate anyone here, only kill...And he has far more effective ways of doing so ;)

 

An impressive example of durability, but directly attacking Ord would be far from my preferable offensive strategy against him.   

Why?  Your team has no knowledge of Ord.  There is no reason not to attack him in such a manner.  It's perfectly in character for each member of your team to do so.  Daredevil has done this countless times with foes bigger than himself and no more intimidating (appearance wise) than Ord, and we're both more than aware Spider-Man does the same ;)  And Daken obviously does, too, but he has every right to, due to his claws and pheromones. 
      
 

 


   

 

 

 

 

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#32 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
"

Whether you agree with his displays or not, it is all we have to go by for his abilities.  It was established three times that members of his species boast the strength to harm Colossus.  Perhaps they're indeed stronger than the handbook lists?  It wouldn't be too far fetched, considering it ranks Kraven/Punisher above Daredevil in fighting abilities and even downgraded Bucky's when he became Captain America.  I'd assume it's a poor ranking on behalf of the handbook, if anything. "

 

 

I consider it poor ranking in the first place. And while I generally support the use of handbooks, posting a handbook entry which you consider poorly done (and the stats of which, contradict one of the scans which just as easily enables the people involved to draw their own conclusions about Ord and his attributes) was unwise. I pointed it out.

  
 

 I wasn't using that example to prove it is capable of cutting through harder materials...It would be a bit foolish to consider Wolverine's flesh, muscle and organs a substance to boast cutting through.  I just showed that he is skilled with it, and can drop Wolverine (who is notorious for taking a lot of damage before dropping) with one slice.  So I see no reason why he can't accomplish the same against his son, Daken.  


 
I am aware that you were not. However, since it was the only example of him effectively using the blade in the scans you produced for offensive purposes, I felt it required addressing. If he could do it against Daken is debatable, because despite having an inferior healing factor/durability to Wolverine's, Daken isn't Wolverine, for better, or worse.
 

And unfortunately, Ord wasn't around long enough to demonstrate the true cutting capabilities of his blade.  I'd presume if he makes that claim, it works in a similiar function as a lightsaber.  It has the ability to cut through any Earth-based substance, but would require additional force and/or time to actually penetrate certain materials.   


 
Many people have made many claims in comics, some of which hold merit, while others, not so much. I understand your thought process, but there is no evidence supporting, or disregarding this point.
 

 Not that this matters much for the debate, though, since no one on your team has anything he wouldn't logically be capable of slicing.


 
I expressed my disapproval on Ord's statement, because there is no real evidence supporting it - simply put, we rely on his word, and, occasionally, that is not enough. On this case, because of Ord's familiarity (or unfamiliarity, perhaps?) with all the known Earth substances. Is he aware of adamantium, vibranium, carbonadium, or even the muramasa while making that statement? Maybe. Maybe not. We cannot be certain, either way. While it obviously has little to do with the debate (apart from the muramasa part, since fragments of it are bonded to Daken's claws, but that will hardly come into play), expanding on a character's abilities (which was the point of your initial post) only adds a better level of understanding, not only to me (and I admittedly have not much experience with either Ord, or Alyosha), but to the people reading through the debate. Additional clarification is always for the best.

 
 Again, I wasn't using him one-shotting Wolverine as a feat demonstrating the blades ability to cut through any substance.  Also, what were the conditions here? It obviously looks like Wolverine has been held captive.  Is he perhaps in a weakened condition here?


 
I repeat that I'm aware, but that was not the point of the scan, at all. It was that it does not even require a blade to inflict such damage to Wolverine. A well placed hit, be it from Ord's blade, or Daken's bone claws, can have a similar effect to even one of Marvel's best healers, and naturally durable street level characters. 
 
Wolverine was placed in that chamber after being shot by Dum Dum Dugan. His vitals signs were at normal levels, and he had regained consciousness 3-4 pages before Daken confronted him. The device was simply restraining him from escaping custody.

 

 I agree with you 100%.  However, like I said, Ord earned the right to travel to Earth by killing the best fighters on his planet.  While I'd assume the female is skilled, I think it's fair to assume as well that Ord is the best the planet has to offer.  Otherwise, she could have gone to accomplish the goal hereself, yes?


 
Could it be that she did not participated to that "competition", at all (since she would have been dead, considering that Ord killed everyone who did)? Could it be that she was, at the time a much inferior fighter than at the point she faced Colossus? I can but speculate, snce I have not read the story.
 
 

The example of applying a nerve strike isn't to illustrate Ord could do the same to anyone on your team, but instead showing the amount of strength their species is capable of.  I don't think a  pressure point is required at all on his behalf.  She only did so to manipulate him and control his movement.  Ord isn't looking to manipulate anyone here, only kill...And he has far more effective ways of doing so ;)

 
LOL. Fair enough. I considered the scan as demonstration of both strength, and skill, but if it was about strength alone, that's alright.
 

 Why?  Your team has no knowledge of Ord.  There is no reason not to attack him in such a manner.  It's perfectly in character for each member of your team to do so.  Daredevil has done this countless times with foes bigger than himself and no more intimidating (appearance wise) than Ord, and we're both more than aware Spider-Man does the same ;)  And Daken obviously does, too, but he has every right to, due to his claws and pheromones. 


 
Daredevil can also detect Ord's vital signs (or the potential alteration, and even absence of) and realise his physiology is not human, and as such, he may possess unnatural abilities, which is perfectly in character for him to do before attacking, considering his cautious nature. 
 
I think Spider-man's usual offensive strategy when first encountering an opponent is to web him up (which, in perfect balance to the plot, always fails), rather than punch him.
 
Daken will fully co-operate with his two comrades in this fight, so rushing at him without approval and/or informing the other two seems unlikely. Especially seeing that Daredevil will share the information of Ord's nature via the telepathic link that the three characters share.
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#33 Edited by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


I consider it poor ranking in the first place. And while I generally support the use of handbooks, posting a handbook entry which you consider poorly done (and the stats of which, contradict one of the scans which just as easily enables the people involved to draw their own conclusions about Ord and his attributes) was unwise. I pointed it out. 
 

I posted it merely to provide a source for his bio and other abilities, just to prove that I'm not merely making up claims.  I didn't even notice the strength error until you mentioned it, I just posted it for the above reason, as well as feeling it was the right thing to do, since few know him. 
 
am aware that you were not. However, since it was the only example of him effectively using the blade in the scans you produced for offensive purposes, I felt it required addressing. If he could do it against Daken is debatable, because despite having an inferior healing factor/durability to Wolverine's, Daken isn't Wolverine, for better, or worse.
 Unfortunately, it's the only display of him using the weapon.  Likely because Wolverine was the only character he could use it against without killing the victim *eye roll*.  They are indeed different, but Daken's healing factor, to my knowledge, has never been proven superior to his fathers? 
 

 Many people have made many claims in comics, some of which hold merit, while others, not so much. I understand your thought process, but there is no evidence supporting, or disregarding this point. 
 

I can agree with this.  But again, this doesn't really pertain to the debate regarding our teams, since no one on your team is equipped with anything durable enough to debatably withstand an attack from the melee weapon. 
 

 I expressed my disapproval on Ord's statement, because there is no real evidence supporting it - simply put, we rely on his word, and, occasionally, that is not enough. On this case, because of Ord's familiarity (or unfamiliarity, perhaps?) with all the known Earth substances. Is he aware of adamantium, vibranium, carbonadium, or even the muramasa while making that statement? Maybe. Maybe not. We cannot be certain, either way. While it obviously has little to do with the debate (apart from the muramasa part, since fragments of it are bonded to Daken's claws, but that will hardly come into play), expanding on a character's abilities (which was the point of your initial post) only adds a better level of understanding, not only to me (and I admittedly have not much experience with either Ord, or Alyosha), but to the people reading through the debate. Additional clarification is always for the best.
 

Fair enough.  I suppose I'm just in "debate mode", looking to focus soley on the characters at hand and how these factors can come into play.  My apologies, I was unaware you were just looking to further understand. 
 
I repeat that I'm aware, but that was not the point of the scan, at all. It was that it does not even require a blade to inflict such damage to Wolverine. A well placed hit, be it from Ord's blade, or Daken's bone claws, can have a similar effect to even one of Marvel's best healers, and naturally durable street level characters. 
 
Wolverine was placed in that chamber after being shot by Dum Dum Dugan. His vitals signs were at normal levels, and he had regained consciousness 3-4 pages before Daken confronted him. The device was simply restraining him from escaping custody. 
 Thank you for clearing that up.  I should have elaborated in the first place.  I wasn;t meaning to address just the fact he could down Wolverine with a single hit, but the fact he did so in a combat scenario, while juggling an encounter with the entire Astonishing X-Men roster.   
 
Could it be that she did not participated to that "competition", at all (since she would have been dead, considering that Ord killed everyone who did)? Could it be that she was, at the time a much inferior fighter than at the point she faced Colossus? I can but speculate, snce I have not read the story.
 There are countless variables I'm sure we could question.  However, we would never receive an actual answer unless we spoke with Mr. Whedon himself. 
  
 

 Daredevil can also detect Ord's vital signs (or the potential alteration, and even absence of) and realise his physiology is not human, and as such, he may possess unnatural abilities, which is perfectly in character for him to do before attacking, considering his cautious nature.  
 

Just like the previous post, this is mere speculation.  For all Daredevil knows, Ord could be another mutant, considering there are quite a few who do not have standard human anatomy.  Then again, for all we know, Ord may indeed have the same internal system as a human.  This again, is just speculating on our behalf.  Is anyone here friends with Whedon? ;) 
 

 I think Spider-man's usual offensive strategy when first encountering an opponent is to web him up (which, in perfect balance to the plot, always fails), rather than punch him. 

It's rare, IMO, to see him go for a complete incapacitation via webbing.  He'll use his webbing, but not to the same degree we saw against Tony Stark.  Plus, you're using current, so his supply of webbing is limited.  After all, we recently saw him run out of webbing against Sandman.  Unaware of Ord's high durability, I see no reason why attempting to use his strength wouldn't appear to be a sound option. 
 

Daken will fully co-operate with his two comrades in this fight, so rushing at him without approval and/or informing the other two seems unlikely. Especially seeing that Daredevil will share the information of Ord's nature via the telepathic link that the three characters share. 

 

I did not imply he would just rush at my team...Unless you're speaking out when I provided the scenario of Daken flanking (which I merely mentioned once, but didn't pursue that path for the debate).  If that is the case,  I wouldn't call that "rushing without approval".  If anything, it would be rather strategic.  Daken is quite the hunter and rather stealthy.  With his enhanced senses, I see no reason why he wouldn't believe he could manage to sneak around my team.  However, like I said, I'm not pursuing that approach for a debate.  Instead, I see it being far more likely for Daredevil to take on Kraven, as Ord battles Spider-Man and Daken. 
 
 

 
 

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#34 Posted by Power NeXus (10283 posts) - - Show Bio

It's debates like this that make me love Comicvine
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#35 Posted by Precise (21954 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Btw, can Spider-Man run out of webbing here? Because in the rules you did mention that characters with guns/bows had unlimited ammo, so seems fair to me that Spidey would get unlimited webbing. But I dunno..
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#36 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio

 I posted it merely to provide a source for his bio and other abilities, just to prove that I'm not merely making up claims.  I didn't even notice the strength error until you mentioned it, I just posted it for the above reason, as well as feeling it was the right thing to do, since few know him.


 
Understandable, then. 
 

 Unfortunately, it's the only display of him using the weapon.  Likely because Wolverine was the only character he could use it against without killing the victim *eye roll*.  They are indeed different, but Daken's healing factor, to my knowledge, has never been proven superior to his fathers?


 
Correct. As I mentioned in my previous reply, his healing factor is inferior to Wolverine's. However, a carbonadium bullet to the back of his head was employed in order to eliminate Daken after Wolverine first fought him (fired by none other than Bucky). An implication that Wolverine thought his healing factor good enough to counteract the same effect swiftly, had it not been for that specific bullet. I was referring to Wolverine and Daken and their abilities in general in my final statement, though, not exclusively on their healing factors.
 

 I can agree with this.  But again, this doesn't really pertain to the debate regarding our teams, since no one on your team is equipped with anything durable enough to debatably withstand an attack from the melee weapon.


 
Daken can potentially use the muramasa claws to block it, but that's us going into specific scenarios.
 

 Fair enough.  I suppose I'm just in "debate mode", looking to focus soley on the characters at hand and how these factors can come into play.  My apologies, I was unaware you were just looking to further understand.


 No problem, K4tz. 
 

  Thank you for clearing that up.  I should have elaborated in the first place.  I wasn;t meaning to address just the fact he could down Wolverine with a single hit, but the fact he did so in a combat scenario, while juggling an encounter with the entire Astonishing X-Men roster.  


 
The fact that he managed to accomplish such a thing is obviously to his credit, but I pointed out that even a character with the durability of Wolverine, can be put down in such a manner. Especially since he did not calculate the situation accurately. 
 

  There are countless variables I'm sure we could question.  However, we would never receive an actual answer unless we spoke with Mr. Whedon himself.


 

Just like the previous post, this is mere speculation.  For all Daredevil knows, Ord could be another mutant, considering there are quite a few who do not have standard human anatomy.  Then again, for all we know, Ord may indeed have the same internal system as a human.  This again, is just speculating on our behalf.  Is anyone here friends with Whedon? ;)


 
The possibilities are endless indeed, but at any case Daredevil is capable of providing physical features for people, their age, sex and attributes from several blocks away. If Ord's physiology is indeed a bit peculiar (to put it lightly, for someone who stands at 7'5''), that should be a sign that a certain degree of caution is required, and perhaps consultation with his team-mates. If not (and his internal organs are no different than those of a regular human being), the evaluation of his senses will still provide him some insight about his musculatory system, which should be rather developed. Taking their profession into account, Daredevil needs not be a magician to realise there is a possibility for Ord to possess superhuman attributes. It is by no means definite, nor will they know the full extent of his great abilities, but they will not be lambs for a slaughter, either.
 

 It's rare, IMO, to see him go for a complete incapacitation via webbing.  He'll use his webbing, but not to the same degree we saw against Tony Stark.  Plus, you're using current, so his supply of webbing is limited.  After all, we recently saw him run out of webbing against Sandman.  Unaware of Ord's high durability, I see no reason why attempting to use his strength wouldn't appear to be a sound option.


 
Incapacitation no, but to use it in order to partially restrain/hinder someone before going for a close strike, or directing the webbing in order to rotate his enemy to another direction isn't out of the question.
 
 Unless something important eludes me, exact specification about Spider-man's webbing was not made in the OP. As a result, I assumed he registers under this:

 
 Characters with guns have unlimited ammo unless specified otherwise.
-Characters with bows/throwing knives have unlimited arrows/knives unless specified otherwise.
-Characters still need to reload.   

    If not, inform me about your decisions on the matter.
 

 I did not imply he would just rush at my team...Unless you're speaking out when I provided the scenario of Daken flanking (which I merely mentioned once, but didn't pursue that path for the debate).  If that is the case,  I wouldn't call that "rushing without approval".  If anything, it would be rather strategic.  Daken is quite the hunter and rather stealthy.  With his enhanced senses, I see no reason why he wouldn't believe he could manage to sneak around my team.  However, like I said, I'm not pursuing that approach for a debate.  Instead, I see it being far more likely for Daredevil to take on Kraven, as Ord battles Spider-Man and Daken.


 
No, I was not referring to that part, but I intended to address it on my reply, later.
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#37 Posted by Zaterra (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice thread. Lots of interesting points in here

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#38 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus said:
"It's debates like this that make me love Comicvine "
LOL.  Glad you're enjoying the show.
 
@Zaterra said:
"

Nice thread. Lots of interesting points in here

"
Thank you.
 
 
@Precise
said:
" @k4tzm4n: Btw, can Spider-Man run out of webbing here? Because in the rules you did mention that characters with guns/bows had unlimited ammo, so seems fair to me that Spidey would get unlimited webbing. But I dunno.. "

Thank you for addressing that.  To be fair, I'll say he has extra webbing cartridges along his waist. 
 
I'll address Morph's post when I have time. 
 
 
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#39 Edited by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


 

Understandable, then. 

*shakes hand*

 

Correct. As I mentioned in my previous reply, his healing factor is inferior to Wolverine's. However, a carbonadium bullet to the back of his head was employed in order to eliminate Daken after Wolverine first fought him (fired by none other than Bucky). An implication that Wolverine thought his healing factor good enough to counteract the same effect swiftly, had it not been for that specific bullet. I was referring to Wolverine and Daken and their abilities in general in my final statement, though, not exclusively on their healing factors.

*throws a chair at Daniel Way*  But we're in agreement then that Daken's healing factor is indeed less than Wolverine's, yes? 
 

 Daken can potentially use the muramasa claws to block it, but that's us going into specific scenarios.

I would agree this is diving into specific scenarios.  Also, I don't believe I've ever seen him use his blades as a defensive measure, to block attacks...Especially ones of this degree (strength and radius of the blade from Ord) 
 
 

The possibilities are endless indeed, but at any case Daredevil is capable of providing physical features for people, their age, sex and attributes from several blocks away. If Ord's physiology is indeed a bit peculiar (to put it lightly, for someone who stands at 7'5''), that should be a sign that a certain degree of caution is required, and perhaps consultation with his team-mates. If not (and his internal organs are no different than those of a regular human being), the evaluation of his senses will still provide him some insight about his musculatory system, which should be rather developed. Taking their profession into account, Daredevil needs not be a magician to realise there is a possibility for Ord to possess superhuman attributes. It is by no means definite, nor will they know the full extent of his great abilities, 
 

I can clearly agree Daredevil will be able to detect him and determine there's a foe of a fairly large stature ahead, however this isn't exactly anything out of the ordinary for any three of these characters.  The key here, IMHO, is the combination of Ord's strength, durability and skill which will be the major surprise for the team.  If anything though, this further supports my theory that the two "heavy hitters" on your team would engage the higher ranking threat, and Daredevil would engage the secondary threat, Alyosha.
 
 

but they will not be lambs for a slaughter, either. 

I'm not trying to imply they would just run in and be stomped, silly.  We'll have fun debating about this shortly, I'm certain of that. 
 

Incapacitation no, but to use it in order to partially restrain/hinder someone before going for a close strike, or directing the webbing in order to rotate his enemy to another direction isn't out of the question. 

Perhaps if Ord lacked his combat mindset and remained stationary, this method would serve Parker well.  But as is, we've seen the likes of Wolverine claw through Spider-Man's attempt of webbing...And because this is current, he won't be able to deploy the same amount as he did against Tony Stark, without having to reload, which takes a matter of seconds.  Also, as previously shown, Ord is clearly sporting excellent reaction timing, being able to counter Cyclops, tag Kitty and counter Wolverine all in a matter of what appears to be seconds at most.  Given his strength, reaction timing and use of his blade, I'm hard pressed to believe Spider-Man will indeed be able to properly incapacitate him. 

 
Unless something important eludes me, exact specification about Spider-man's webbing was not made in the OP. As a result, I assumed he registers under this:

Let's assume he has extra cartridges along his lower abdomen.  Sorry for not addressing that in the rules.

 

 

 

 

 No, I was not referring to that part, but I intended to address it on my reply, later. 

Looking forward to it. 
 
 
 

 
 
 

 

 

 

 

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#40 Edited by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio

 *throws a chair at Daniel Way*  But we're in agreement then that Daken's healing factor is indeed less than Wolverine's, yes?

Certainly. 
 

 I would agree this is diving into specific scenarios.  Also, I don't believe I've ever seen him use his blades as a defensive measure, to block attacks...Especially ones of this degree (strength and radius of the blade from Ord)


 
I cannot recall him using them in such a capacity either, but Daken is an intelligent fighter, as well as a skilled one, so it isn't something I would put past him, if he was to be placed in such a position. 
 

 I can clearly agree Daredevil will be able to detect him and determine there's a foe of a fairly large stature ahead, however this isn't exactly anything out of the ordinary for any three of these characters. 


 
Which is why I believe they will not make the mistake of underestimating him - most people in their line of business have powers, in one way, or the other, so a cautious approach will be due.

 The key here, IMHO, is the combination of Ord's strength, durability and skill which will be the major surprise for the team.  If anything though, this further supports my theory that the two "heavy hitters" on your team would engage the higher ranking threat, and Daredevil would engage the secondary threat, Alyosha. 


 We shall see.
 

 Perhaps if Ord lacked his combat mindset and remained stationary, this method would serve Parker well.  But as is, we've seen the likes of Wolverine claw through Spider-Man's attempt of webbing...And because this is current, he won't be able to deploy the same amount as he did against Tony Stark, without having to reload, which takes a matter of seconds.  Also, as previously shown, Ord is clearly sporting excellent reaction timing, being able to counter Cyclops, tag Kitty and counter Wolverine all in a matter of what appears to be seconds at most.  Given his strength, reaction timing and use of his blade, I'm hard pressed to believe Spider-Man will indeed be able to properly incapacitate him.


 
Spider-man has managed to replenish his web shooters at an exceedingly fast rate before, but I will get to that later, since it is fairly off topic at this point. As a side note, the Stark example is not viable, either way (I can further clarify, if you wish, even though it has nothing to do with the debate).
 
I think tagging Kitty is proof of his tactical mindset (manipulating Cyclops' beam in such a manner in order to hit her directly, after blocking his shot) rather than pure reaction timing (blocking Cyke and slashing Wolverine is the true testament of that). But while Cyclops is brilliant in the use of his powers, it is not unheard of for an opponent to dodge/deflect his blasts, and from the top of my head, Wolverine, or Bullseye both have done it, and while that is proof of great reflexes, it is not proof of Spider-man level reflexes, which is something else entirely. 
 
Wolverine has a tendency for allowing his inner instincts to get in the way of his tactical mindset and his great skill, sometimes blindly rushing towards opponents, trusting his healing factor will tank everything and keep him going (he has also introduced the notion that he desires to get hit, and does so deliberately, in the past).
 
 Also, Ord will (probably, depending on the strategy and how the match goes) not be fighting Spider-man one on one. A slight diversion is not out of the question.
 
 

Let's assume he has extra cartridges along his lower abdomen.  Sorry for not addressing that in the rules.


 
No problem K4tz.

 
I'll address your tactics and elaborate on mine later today.
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#41 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


 

I cannot recall him using them in such a capacity either, but Daken is an intelligent fighter, as well as a skilled one, so it isn't something I would put past him, if he was to be placed in such a position. 

To be frank, (I've always wanted to say that, ha ha!) I see Daken as being far more likely to dodge attacks as opposed to blocking with his claws.  This is only because we have yet to even see him "block" attacks with his claws.  He's fairly swift and I'd say that method serves him better.

Which is why I believe they will not make the mistake of underestimating him - most people in their line of business have powers, in one way, or the other, so a cautious approach will be due.

I completely agree.  I don't think anyone will be hotheaded or foolish in this bout.

 

Spider-man has managed to replenish his web shooters at an exceedingly fast rate before, but I will get to that later, since it is fairly off topic at this point. As a side note, the Stark example is not viable, either way (I can further clarify, if you wish, even though it has nothing to do with the debate).

He can do it quickly, indeed...However, he's facing a foe that has demonstrated exceptional speed...And IMO, in a battle such as this, every second is going to count (especially with Ord using an assortment of explosives).  I only addressed the Stark incident in case you planned on doing so.  I doubted you would do such, but I figured it's better to be safe than sorry. 
  

think tagging Kitty is proof of his tactical mindset (manipulating Cyclops' beam in such a manner in order to hit her directly, after blocking his shot) rather than pure reaction timing (blocking Cyke and slashing Wolverine is the true testament of that). But while Cyclops is brilliant in the use of his powers, it is not unheard of for an opponent to dodge/deflect his blasts, and from the top of my head, Wolverine, or Bullseye both have done it, and while that is proof of great reflexes, it is not proof of Spider-man level reflexes, which is something else entirely.   

I wasn't boasting about reflecting the shot as a "tactical feat", but more of a display of his reflexes.  I'd have to say the fact he's done nothing but trained and killed the best fighters on his planets for decades is a feat proving he has an effective mindset when it comes to combat tactics.  Wolverine and Bullseye have dodged, no deflected the blast (like Ord did).  Unless of course, you're speaking of the time Wolverine hit the otpic blast with the M-Blade?  I'm not saying Ord has faster reflexes than Parker, but he clearly demonstrated his reflexes are skilled enough to take down one of the best tactical teams around.  Spider-Man has a plethora of foes are far less skilled...And well, we know how that often goes ;)  
 

 
Wolverine has a tendency for allowing his inner instincts to get in the way of his tactical mindset and his great skill, sometimes blindly rushing towards opponents, trusting his healing factor will tank everything and keep him going (he has also introduced the notion that he desires to get hit, and does so deliberately, in the past).

Even if it wasn't a "tactically smart" move in most cases, in this the move was done at what appeared to be the right time.  He was attacking Ord from his side, as Beast was leaping from his flank,all while Cyclops was firing from ahead.  Ord was being attacked from three different angles, all at once...Yet Ord still blocked the blast, palm punched Wolverine, slit his stomach open, and smashed Beast into Cyclops.  Given the speed of an optic blast and Wolverine's swift speed, I'd say that's rather impressive.

 

Also, Ord will (probably, depending on the strategy and how the match goes) not be fighting Spider-man one on one. A slight diversion is not out of the question.

I never said he would be.  The entire time my plan has actually been relying on Spider-Man AND Daken attacking Ord.  This is required so Alyosha can hold off the third party member (Daredevil).  And given their variety of explosives at hand, I believe they're more than capable of accomplishing this feat. 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

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#42 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio

 

To be frank, (I've always wanted to say that, ha ha!) I see Daken as being far more likely to dodge attacks as opposed to blocking with his claws.  This is only because we have yet to even see him "block" attacks with his claws.  He's fairly swift and I'd say that method serves him better. 


 True words.
 


 I completely agree.  I don't think anyone will be hotheaded or foolish in this bout. 

 
Just for laughs, after this is over, you should make a battle thread with these teams, with me supporting your team, and you mine.
 

 He can do it quickly, indeed...However, he's facing a foe that has demonstrated exceptional speed...And IMO, in a battle such as this, every second is going to count (especially with Ord using an assortment of explosives).  I only addressed the Stark incident in case you planned on doing so.  I doubted you would do such, but I figured it's better to be safe than sorry.


  Agreed, and I did not intend to, for the sole reason that while several aspects of pre-OMD Spider-man can be used as proof of his abilities, organic webbing is not one of them, since he doesn't even have the ability any longer. 
 

 I wasn't boasting about reflecting the shot as a "tactical feat", but more of a display of his reflexes.


 
I know, which is why I isolated the examples I thought where truly a result of his reaction time, rather than what I perceive to be a tactical move (diverting Cyke's blast to hit Kitty).

 I'd have to say the fact he's done nothing but trained and killed the best fighters on his planets for decades is a feat proving he has an effective mindset when it comes to combat tactics. 


 
No doubt.
 

 Wolverine and Bullseye have dodged, no deflected the blast (like Ord did). Unless of course, you're speaking of the time Wolverine hit the otpic blast with the M-Blade?


 
I was speaking in generic terms (about the blasts being dodged/blocked in the past), before mentioning two people who fall under these categories, be it dodging (both), or deflecting (and you are correct, Logan has used the muramasa to do that).

I'm not saying Ord has faster reflexes than Parker, but he clearly demonstrated his reflexes are skilled enough to take down one of the best tactical teams around.  Spider-Man has a plethora of foes are far less skilled...And well, we know how that often goes ;)   


 
Spider-man's foes may be a lot inferior to Ord in terms of skill, but some of them compensate it with additional powers, which renders them untouchable to most - and yet Spider-man's brilliance enables him to think on the fly, and use his surrounding to his benefit.
 
I agree that Ord is very skilled and tactical, of course, and apparently quite agile for someone of his stature.

 

 I never said he would be.  The entire time my plan has actually been relying on Spider-Man AND Daken attacking Ord.  This is required so Alyosha can hold off the third party member (Daredevil).  And given their variety of explosives at hand, I believe they're more than capable of accomplishing this feat.


 
This falls under the tactical section, which I will hopefully start today.
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#43 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


Just for laughs, after this is over, you should make a battle thread with these teams, with me supporting your team, and you mine.  
 

LOL.  I could try, but then I'd be debating just for the sake of debating ;) 
 

 I know, which is why I isolated the examples I thought where truly a result of his reaction time, rather than what I perceive to be a tactical move (diverting Cyke's blast to hit Kitty).

Understood. 
 

 I was speaking in generic terms (about the blasts being dodged/blocked in the past), before mentioning two people who fall under these categories, be it dodging (both), or deflecting (and you are correct, Logan has used the muramasa to do that).

 

Gotcha.  However, Bullseye's feat of dodging the blasts appeared to be over a fairly large distance, where-as Ord's was in extremely close proximity...And had multiple targets attacking him at once. 
  

Spider-man's foes may be a lot inferior to Ord in terms of skill, but some of them compensate it with additional powers, which renders them untouchable to most - and yet Spider-man's brilliance enables him to think on the fly, and use his surrounding to his benefit.

Additional powers.....Such as superior strength and durability, which Ord also sports ;)  There are obviously plenty of other examples (Shocker, Electro, etc) but against those "similiar" to Ord,  being physically stronger and more durable, he tends to go for slugfests with them (Tombstone, Scorpion, Lizard, Rhino, etc) 
 

 This falls under the tactical section, which I will hopefully start today.

Okay. 
 

 

 

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#44 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio

 LOL.  I could try, but then I'd be debating just for the sake of debating ;)


 
Wouldn't be the first time. :P 
 

 Gotcha.  However, Bullseye's feat of dodging the blasts appeared to be over a fairly large distance, where-as Ord's was in extremely close proximity...And had multiple targets attacking him at once.


 
True, but Cyclops tried to hit him a series of times, while he did not do the same against Ord (possibly because Wolverine and Beast rushed against Ord, and he wanted to ensure he had a clean shot without hurting his team-mates).
 

Additional powers.....Such as superior strength and durability, which Ord also sports ;)  There are obviously plenty of other examples (Shocker, Electro, etc) but against those "similiar" to Ord,  being physically stronger and more durable, he tends to go for slugfests with them (Tombstone, Scorpion, Lizard, Rhino, etc) 


 
I was more so referring to people with unconventional abilities, against whom he employs his mind rather than his physical dominance, but that is a fitting description. As for Spider-man having a tendency to take the battles against strong and durable opponents at close range, while it is something I by no means deny, it is also proof of his durability - more than anything. He has been hit by various characters above the 20 tons range (and even gone toe to toe against a character in the 100+ tons category), and kept fighting to the end. Modifying his style to do so (if required) against Ord (and his blade) isn't out of his character. Would he be able to directly hurt Ord? Doubtful. But he would not be an easy target to defeat.
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#45 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


 

Wouldn't be the first time. :P  

It was kill or be killed!!!!! LOL.  Hey, I even had myself slightly convinced Bullseye could take a trivial majority over Spider-Man after that debate........ Okay, maybe I didn't. 
 

True, but Cyclops tried to hit him a series of times, while he did not do the same against Ord (possibly because Wolverine and Beast rushed against Ord, and he wanted to ensure he had a clean shot without hurting his team-mates). 

 

That doesn't mean the shots were equally accurate as the one used against Ord.  Plus, due to the distance, Bullseye perhaps could even see the blasts coming and had more time to dodge them.  But I agree with the later, it appears Cyc only fired once and not again, in fear of tagging a teammate.

 


 

 I was more so referring to people with unconventional abilities, against whom he employs his mind rather than his physical dominance, but that is a fitting description. 

Understood, but even against those characters, he tends to make small modifications.  VS an upgraded Electro? Sure, I'll just web up my hands! VS Shocker? I'll KEEP hitting him until a plot device appears!  In the event he does think  outside of the box, it tends to be on a second encounter, not a first.  For example, acidic webbing against Sandman, unique webbing against Electro, a device to disable Vulture's flight, so on and so on.  This is his first encounter with Ord, I see him using his traditional combat techniques.  I have no reason to believe he wouldn't, really.   
 


 As for Spider-man having a tendency to take the battles against strong and durable opponents at close range, while it is something I by no means deny, it is also proof of his durability - more than anything. He has been hit by various characters above the 20 tons range (and even gone toe to toe against a character in the 100+ tons category), and kept fighting to the end. 

He is indeed a tough little bugger (har har har!)...But this just futhers the fact he'll indeed try to use his speed and strength to eventually inflict damage...And we've all seen what has happened when Spider-Man has dared to face off against combatants far superior in technique.  Daredevil has given him a decent bout and Wolverine has tagged him quite a few times.  And based on Ord's limited showings,  I believe his attributes topped with his skill will allow him to tag Parker.  And if Ord has the power to make Colossus feel his hits (which he indeed does, since it's all we have to go by), imagine the impact it will have on Parker.  Will he one shot him? Very unlikely, but I can see several instances where Parker is down for a few moments.

 

Modifying his style to do so (if required) against Ord (and his blade) isn't out of his character. Would he be able to directly hurt Ord? Doubtful. But he would not be an easy target to defeat.

I don't see him as being "easy" to defeat, but instead requiring time against.  This is where his use of flash bangs, tear gas, explosives, and flame grenades will come into hand.  If he can even momentarily keep Spider-man at bay, it gives him the opportunity he needs to take out Daken in close range, without the distraction of potential webbing or puny < :) > 10 ton blows.  Even without doing so, I believe he has the skill to manipulate the battle against both simultaniously.

 

 

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#46 Edited by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio

 It was kill or be killed!!!!! LOL.  Hey, I even had myself slightly convinced Bullseye could take a trivial majority over Spider-Man after that debate........ Okay, maybe I didn't.


 
Blasphemy, K4tz! 
 
 

That doesn't mean the shots were equally accurate as the one used against Ord.  Plus, due to the distance, Bullseye perhaps could even see the blasts coming and had more time to dodge them.  But I agree with the later, it appears Cyc only fired once and not again, in fear of tagging a teammate.


 
When it comes to Cyclops, things are somewhat puzzling. He has managed to hit opponents from long range without that hindering him in the least before, but he has failed from extremely close range, as well. So, while distance is important, he has proved he can overcome it, but his blasts are not impossible to dodge, either. 

 

Understood, but even against those characters, he tends to make small modifications.  VS an upgraded Electro? Sure, I'll just web up my hands! VS Shocker? I'll KEEP hitting him until a plot device appears! 



Against an upgraded Eectro he speculated that he could not retain that level of power for much time, and tried to wear him out (apart from webbing his hands up).
 
I don't recall him in need of a plot device to defeat Shocker recently. The last time they faced each other Spider-man won without need for that (perhaps I don't remember it correctly? I'll double-check).
 

In the event he does think  outside of the box, it tends to be on a second encounter, not a first.  For example, acidic webbing against Sandman, unique webbing against Electro, a device to disable Vulture's flight, so on and so on.  This is his first encounter with Ord, I see him using his traditional combat techniques.  I have no reason to believe he wouldn't, really.    


 
That is true (and mostly reliant on prep time), but Spider-man using his surroundings in order to play with his strengths (or the weaknesses) of his opponent is nothing new, either. That is what I was referring to, not his solutions against opponents he has already faced and knows how he should prepare to counter. Could he accomplish the same against Ord here? Debatable, but we will see.
 

  

He is indeed a tough little bugger (har har har!)...But this just futhers the fact he'll indeed try to use his speed and strength to eventually inflict damage...


That would be the case, had he been fighting on his own, yes. Fighting in the prospect of eventually hurting Ord isn't his only agenda here, though, seeing that there are team-mates for both sides, for better, or worse.

And we've all seen what has happened when Spider-Man has dared to face off against combatants far superior in technique.  Daredevil has given him a decent bout and Wolverine has tagged him quite a few times.  


 His disposition towards them is crucial, as well.  Also, there are specific abilities the two combatants possess, that Ord lacks, and vice versa, even though I understand the example.

And based on Ord's limited showings,  I believe his attributes topped with his skill will allow him to tag Parker.  And if Ord has the power to make Colossus feel his hits (which he indeed does, since it's all we have to go by), imagine the impact it will have on Parker. Will he one shot him? Very unlikely, but I can see several instances where Parker is down for a few moments.


 
That is under the requirement that Spider-man will get hit several, if not many, times. If he is fighting with a relative amount of seriousness, that will not be the case.

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#47 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


Blasphemy, K4tz! 

LOL.  I was essentially forced to...If I didn't our "villains" team would suffer a lose! There were a few other times though....  :X

 

When it comes to Cyclops, things are somewhat puzzling. He has managed to hit opponents from long range without that hindering him in the least before, but he has failed from extremely close range, as well. So, while distance is important, he has proved he can overcome it, but his blasts are not impossible to dodge, either.

Indeed.  We could credit to the writer. After all, his work also included Venom stalemating Colossus and Bullseye apparently stalemating Archangel...Riiiight, lol. 

 

Against an upgraded Eectro he speculated that he could not retain that level of power for much time, and tried to wear him out (apart from webbing his hands up). 

The point being, though, he still engaged him hand-to-hand.  He could have easily dodged and used other methods ;)
  
 
 

That would be the case, had he been fighting on his own, yes. Fighting in the prospect of eventually hurting Ord isn't his only agenda here, though, seeing that there are team-mates for both sides, for better, or worse.

I'm aware.  He's likely to try webbing attacks as Daken engages Ord in close range.  However, we'll cover this during the later discussion...Because I'm going to dive into Ord's tactical use of the grenades provided ;) 
 
 
 

don't recall him in need of a plot device to defeat Shocker recently. The last time they faced each other Spider-man won without need for that (perhaps I don't remember it correctly? I'll double-check).  

You're speaking about the underground battle?  Yes, they were restricted to close range combat and Parker broke his vibro-units. 
 
 

 That is true (and mostly reliant on prep time), but Spider-man using his surroundings in order to play with his strengths (or the weaknesses) of his opponent is nothing new, either. That is what I was referring to, not his solutions against opponents he has already faced and knows how he should prepare to counter. 

Fair enough.  however, I don't see anything in this environment playing a pivotal role.  I'm sure you'll review that during your plan and we'll see where we go from there. 
 
 

 

 That is under the requirement that Spider-man will get hit several, if not many, times. If he is fighting with a relative amount of seriousness, that will not be the case.

Since you have no mods altering their basic morals, I see no reason why I wouldn't treat this as standard current Parker, who we both know tends to joke as he fights, instead of applying a more serious and focused demeanour. 
 
 
 

   

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#48 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio

 The point being, though, he still engaged him hand-to-hand.  He could have easily dodged and used other methods ;)


 Actually, he did. He only webbed his fists up and started punching Max after Electro begun losing power.
 

 I'm aware.  He's likely to try webbing attacks as Daken engages Ord in close range.  However, we'll cover this during the later discussion...Because I'm going to dive into Ord's tactical use of the grenades provided ;)


 
I'm interested to see how your devices will come into play, and you did mention them part in your first post, as well. 
 

 You're speaking about the underground battle?  Yes, they were restricted to close range combat and Parker broke his vibro-units.


 
Aha!
 

No Caption Provided

  

Since you have no mods altering their basic morals, I see no reason why I wouldn't treat this as standard current Parker, who we both know tends to joke as he fights, instead of applying a more serious and focused demeanour.


 
We both know that Spider-man has undergone several different behavioural patterns during his fights. It's casual for him to both joke, and try to irritate his opponent. He's a trash talking basketball player (credit to Bendis for the quote). However, that is the reason I mentioned "fighting with a relative amount of seriousness" not necessarily fighting at his very best, or while absolutely serious - he is still more than capable of utilizing his powers successfully even at that state. 
 
Now, taking Daredevil's presence on the team into account, there is the possibility that due to their close friendship, Peter will listen to him and his suggestions, developing a more serious approach than usual - Spider-man has always looked up to Daredevil, and we know he can be inspired to follow the example of people he admires, and wishes not to disappoint. That does not ensue Spider-man will be fighting more seriously than ever before, but at the very least, he will be performing at a higher degree than the one he employs while fighting on his own.
 
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#49 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


 Actually, he did. He only webbed his fists up and started punching Max after Electro begun losing power.  

Why bother to even do such, though? He could still simply incapacitate him with webbing. 
 
 

 Now, taking Daredevil's presence on the team into account, there is the possibility that due to their close friendship, Peter will listen to him and his suggestions, developing a more serious approach than usual - Spider-man has always looked up to Daredevil, and we know he can be inspired to follow the example of people he admires, and wishes not to disappoint.

He worked with Rogers on multiple occasions in New Avengers and still carried the light hearted attitude into the majority of battles ;)  Besides, Daredevil will likely be occupied with Alyosha...And given the fact Alyosha shouldn't be capable of dropping him quickly, I believe your duo would believe Murdock is capable of holding his own, and will need to turn their attention to the far more dangerous threat.

 

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#50 Posted by Morpheus_ (34012 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

"


 Actually, he did. He only webbed his fists up and started punching Max after Electro begun losing power.  

Why bother to even do such, though? He could still simply incapacitate him with webbing.

 

"
Anticlimactic, probably. Just webbing him up wouldn't be too good for entertainment value. 
 
 

He worked with Rogers on multiple occasions in New Avengers and still carried the light hearted attitude into the majority of battles ;)  Besides, Daredevil will likely be occupied with Alyosha...And given the fact Alyosha shouldn't be capable of dropping him quickly, I believe your duo would believe Murdock is capable of holding his own, and will need to turn their attention to the far more dangerous threat. 


 
Daredevil is different than Cap, and his relationship with Spider-man is rather more in depth, than Spider-man's with Steve. Steve was a "father" like figure, an idol, Daredevil is someone to whom Spider-man directly relates to due to the great suffering he has endured through all these years. He is, in many ways, a reflection of his own life. Matt would have no hesitation to be direct and put Peter in his place if he is to start goofing around. 
 
I don't think Daredevil fighting Alyosha (or not) has much to do with the strategic approach the team will employ. They can just as easily "talk" about it via telepathy before even engaging in battle.