Marvel Tourney Semi-Final: Dane vs DeadmanWalkin

Dane's Team

DeadmanWalkin's Team

Setting:

The Setting is at twilight.   The moon is rising and the sun is setting. Only the exterior of the island is on limit.   Entering buildings is not allowed.  The location is unpopulated.   If a character is knocked into the surrounding waters, they are considered eliminated via BFR.

 Rules:

I assume you aren't going to just concede victory to me so I'll go ahead and start. 
 
As I have a some equipment to disperse, I’ll do that now.
Punisher: Doc Ock Tentacle, Glider, 10 Pumpkin Bombs, Iron Man Gauntlet, 9mm Autopistol, 3 Claymores, 3 Incendiary Grenades  
Daredevil: Whiplash’s Whip, Cap’s Shield
Nightcrawler: Wrist Blades, 10 Pumpkin Bombs, 3 Flash Bangs, 3 Sonic Grenades, 3 Tear Gas Grenades
 
Given that both of our teams has a Daredevil and a Telepathic Link, we can go ahead and assume that both of our teams know exactly where the other person's team members are at all times and since he has had dealings with all characters listed that both teams know exactly who they will be facing in this battle. So we can dispense with any discussions on stealth, tracking, and not knowing who they are dealing with. 
 
After assessing the situation, my team will conclude that taking out Daredevil is a priority as without him, you'll be running blind. Nightcrawler will immediately teleport to your team's location and drop a flash bang and a sonic grenade. Your team will then be disoriented for a couple seconds wherein Nightcrawler will grab Daredevil and teleport him to my teams location. Punisher, while he is teleporting, will have set up a claymore mine so that Nightcrawler can drop him in front and teleport out. Punisher detonates the mine and fires off a repulsor blast and then pulls out his autopistol and starts firing. Daredevil may be able to dodge shots without a problem but when he has been hit with a sonic grenade and a flash bang and also has suffered through Nightcrawler teleportation, which is disorienting for someone if Nightcrawler wants it to be, he will be too dazed to dodge or use that Muramasa. 
 
Without your Daredevil, my team now has a mobility and awareness advantage. Simply put, my team can move across the island completely without your knowledge and can avoid your entire team. With unrestricted movement, my team gets to choose when and where a battle takes place. You have 3 options here; 1: Camp at your starting location, 2: Spread out across the island and look for my team, 3: Sweep the island as a team moving as one unit.
 
Option 1: Nightcrawler teleports in and bombards the area with Pumpkin Bombs likely killing your Hand Ninjas and Clint Barton. The pumpkin bomb burns hot enough to melt through 3 inches of Steel and with the 20 foot radius K4tz established Nightcrawler should be able to lay down at least 100x100 feet of burning destruction. Captain America will likely survive because he is Captain America. Captain America will then be at the mercy of 3 very powerful opponents. Before deciding to get in close, they pile on the grenades and pumpkin bombs. If Cap survives, Matt and Frank go in. Matt keeps Cap distracted while Frank moves in with the Tentacle to the foot. Once he gets a hold of him, he lifts Cap in the air and waits for the shield throw. Daredevil intercepts the shield as he is the only one with the skill. Hanging upside down and without his shield, Cap has no protection against the Repulsor Blast that Frank finishes this with.
 
Option 2: This is the stupidest option your could choose as my team can eliminate your team without wasting any pumpkin bombs just by isolating and killing them. 
 
Option 3: This plays out like Option 1 but my team uses a trap to do it. 
 
Any way you slice it, my team has the edge in mobility and firepower allowing me to choose the when and where of every battle that is fought giving me a decided advantage here. 

Good luck you two.
 
@DedmanWalkin said:

"I assume you aren't going to just concede victory to me so I'll go ahead and start."

Firstly, I'll start by saying It's 4am here but I'll post my response later today. Secondly, best of luck to you regardless of my own stake in the debate.
 
I will however point out two immediate flaws:
1. Your team isn't bloodlusted and DD/NC won't do half the things you've said for that reason alone.
2. Your team doesn't have a teamwork addon and DD/NC won't work with a known killer like Frank Castle.
 
I'll provide support for both of these when I post my response to your post.

I'll wait till you have more time to reply so the thread doesn't get bogged down in posts.

Firstly, I'll start by saying It's 4am here but I'll post my response later today. 

" @Dane:  

Firstly, I'll start by saying It's 4am here but I'll post my response later today. 

 A-HA!! If my calculations are correct, you live in Australia. "

I thought this tournament had the "Willing to Kill" rule turned on. I know Luna's did so I assumed it was on here. Either way it has no real bearing because you have made some choices that ultimately hinders your team in this battle. I may not have Bloodlust or Team Cohesion but I do have:
-All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified.
 
You have 5 Hand Ninjas, 1 Character who is supposed to be dead, 1 character who came back from the dead through vaguely explained circumstances, and a duplicate of Daredevil. What organization has at one time targeted superheroes for use as super agents? Has come after Daredevil many times? Has the means to possibly procure and resurrect dead heroes? Has the resources to possibly magically or technologically clone a person they have sought many times to lead their troops? And has 5 agents on Alcatraz Island? Your guys are also Bloodlusted which is the same state that Wolverine, Elektra, Northstar, and a multitude of other villains were in when they were raised by this organization. Heck, they even have a duplicate of magic sword that was last implanted into Daken and one of their guys has taken the name Ronin recently which is a name that comes from where this organization originated. All of this evidence would certainly lead someone like Daredevil to believe that your entire team was assembled by another off shoot of the Hand to kill him and take leadership of the Hand away from him. Tell me how does Daredevil generally deal with the Hand? Do you think that he could convince Nightcrawler of all of this? Do you think it would take anything at all to convince Frank? So maybe my team may not be bloodlusted and willing to outright kill but they will certainly be okay with allowing Frank to do it. Is Daredevil bloodlusted when he fights the Hand? Is Daredevil bloodlusted when he fights criminals? Since they have an "Evil" Captain America, he will definitely be okay with murdering him because he has a problem with anyone trying to defile Captain America's memory given he took on an all new Hatemonger and his army just to stop him from misusing Cap's legacy. Do you think anyone of them would hesitate to kill any of the Hand ninjas? Nightcrawler wouldn't stand for someone dragging Cap, Clint, or Daredevil's souls from Heaven for nefarious purposes. Given the circumstances, I am pretty sure that Daredevil will find Frank to be a useful ally here. Choosing Hand Ninjas and Bloodlust ultimately hurt your team's chances here.
 
You always assume that when Nightcrawler teleports, he has to teleport within melee range of his targets. If Nightcrawler teleports above your people and drops the grenades and teleports there is nothing beyond trying to shoot him that you can do. He has shown that he can out-teleport Cyclops firing at him so Ronin, DD, Cap, and your Ninjas will be unable to put a weapon into him before the grenade goes off and knocks all your people for a loop. Once he takes DD from you, your team is blind. I don't necessarily need Punisher Nightcrawler to bombard your team, I can have Punisher do it from 250 yards up well out of the range of everything but Captain America's Shield. He'll have no problems killing the Ninjas and Clint since he is supposed to be dead anyways. Likewise once he has Cap in his Tentacle he'll likely salute as he fires, maybe saying something like "This is for Steve!"
 
If need be, I can alter my plan to be completely removed of any hint of Bloodlust by replacing death with BFR. Also, Frank could act as his own agent here using his telepathic link to leech the information he needs to get the job done.

Absolute hog-wash.       

"

Absolute hog-wash.       

*spits drink, hands Dane an award for actually using the phrase 'hog-wash'*    "

" @k4tzm4n said:

"

Absolute hog-wash.       

*spits drink, hands Dane an award for actually using the phrase 'hog-wash'*    "

*poses with award*  It's too bad I passed up the chance to use the words "team synergy" - which everyone in business knows is a 10 ton hammer for any argument. "

" @k4tzm4n: Every great business plan will have the words "flow" and "synergy" in them. I did a few courses in Informatics, it's basically the science of making confusing IT graphs for business administrators who won't understand but will be so impressed they'll agree to any amount of project funding you ask for. "

It says that they won't question a duplicate on there own team not enemy teams so your unallied, unlinked Daredevil would be viewed with some suspicion. The examples given suggest different versions not exact duplicates. Don't you think that Daredevil would find it odd that there are 5 Hand Ninjas on the island that aren't under his control as the Leader of the Hand? The person Nightcrawler saves is a misguided human not possibly a brainwashed abomination of evil magic. 
 
What was the standard procedure for dealing with Hand-washed (lol) Heroes? Neutralization and decapitation, they only tried to cure Wolverine because you can't decapitate him due to his powers and skeleton as this was before the Muramasa. Northstar was only saved because Wolverine felt guilty. Nightcrawler certainly tried to help in the neutralization process when Wolverine attacked but couldn't bring himself to do the decapitation of Northstar but was okay with almost allowing Elektra to do it. Frank will be playing the part of the hot Greek ninja in this play. I can even put him in a skimpy red outfit if you'd like. 
 
Daredevil has killed hundreds of Hand ninjas maybe thousands, this will be no different. Nightcrawler has killed before, has absolutely no problem with killing demons in Limbo, and allowed Beast to use the Skrull Bible to create a weapon of mass genocide to stop the Skrulls. Did Nightcrawler kill any undead mutants in Necrosha? 
 
What happens if someone else has a Walky-Talky set to your Walky-Talky's frequency? You can hear everything they are saying. When Nightcrawler and Daredevil inevitably begin their plan he'll know the when's and the where's allowing him to intercept.
 
 I need sleep but I'll be back tomorrow.

Captain America

Clint Barton

Daredevil

"Captain America can  throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it."

" @Dane said:

"Captain America can  throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it."

With his eyes closed. "

" @Dane said:

"Captain America can  throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it."

With his eyes closed. "

"Just curious: has he done this before? lol "

" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "

" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "

Yeah, Steve Rogers is mind-bendingly spastic-good with that shield."

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "

I've posted it before. A lot >_<
runs off crying to his room "

"LOL.  I've seen plenty of others, but never that one =P   "

"LOL.  I've seen plenty of others, but never that one =P   "

Maximum Range for any Bow is about 200 Yards. Maximum Range for most grenade Launchers is about 160 Yards. That means that Frank flying at 250 yards will be invulnerable to everything but Captain America's shield. Keep in mind these ranges are firing horizontally not vertically which lowers the maximum range. Simply put, Clint, DD, and your Hand Ninjas are useless against Frank since he won't try to engage at close range knowing that he is no real match for many of the people on your team. Keep in mind that if you throw the shield you likely lose it which leaves your team at a disadvantage. Frank also has the advantage of a HEAT SEEKING MISSILE which will hit the person he targets such as Daredevil which will blind your team to my team's movements. Frank's Glider also allows him to drop his pumpkin bombs and gives him a machine gun in addition to the 9mm autopistol and Iron Man's Gauntlet which can easily take down Clint thanks to Frank's accuracy and the AOE of the blast. Your only option at this point is to lose the shield which thanks to Frank's Tentacle, he could catch. I could actually make the case that Frank with his gear could solo this because you have no weapons in your arsenal that can hit him save for 1 that you lose once you use it.
 
WHY DO YOU ALWAYS ASSUME THAT NIGHTCRAWLER HAS TO TELEPORT INTO MELEE RANGE? Every time you talk about Nightcrawler you assume that he teleports within 3 feet of his target which given the martial prowess of these guys Nightcrawler would avoid. He has non-lethal grenades that he can throw at a distance that could disable your entire team long enough for him to strike without anyone striking back. It is like you think Nightcrawler is retarded who likes to get pummeled by enemies. Nightcrawler is a very skilled thinker and fighter. Stop suggesting that your team stands any chance against NIghtcrawler with Flashbangs and Sonic Grenades. Also just like you said, the TP link is like walky talkies which means that in the time it takes for Daredevil to sense Nightcrawler and then tell Clint, Nightcrawler will already have 'ported in and 'ported out and any weapon you fire will hit nothing but smoke. If Nightcrawler plays this correctly and eliminates Daredevil first he could easily eliminate all but maybe Cap without any real problems teleporting them to the docks and kicking them in the water thus BFRing them without violating the Tele-BFR rule and without killing anyone on your team.
 
About the only person on my team who couldn't nearly solo your team is Daredevil and since he is functioning as a Radar anyways he doesn't have to even fight anyone till we get to Cap. Cap is the only person on your team that even stands a chance but once it becomes a 3 on 1 he will go down to Nightcrawler's teleportation, Frank's brutal lethality, and Daredevil's incredible skills. Also, what makes you think he has to use either weapon I have given him. Does he always use his billy clubs? No, he is smart enough to choose when to use weapons and when to stow them. Also remember that Daredevil isn't used to using any gun much less a grenade launcher so his aim and capability with it will be much lower.

The Muramasa won't cut Cap's Shield! The one feat it has of cutting through adamantium could be easily explained by the fact that only Sabretooth's bones were adamantium and not his connective tissue like Wolverine which would allow his limbs and head to be severed if struck in places that are held together by connective tissue.
 
The "Lighter Incident" isn't really that impressive given that he set up the lighter, chose the location he was throwing from, and has a photographic memory. If it was in the middle of combat it would be impressive but outside of combat it is little more than a magic trick. However, bringing down the missile with the shield is pretty damned impressive.

Let's ask K4tz then for a ruling on whether or not my "your guys are Hand guys and as such fall into the completely killable category" is within the rules. It won't make my guys bloodlusted or provide team synergy it will just provide them with the "in character" motive they need to work together and take down the competition.  
 
I never said that this would be a straight up fight, I said that we can dispense with any stealth, tracking, or unknowns given Daredevil's powers. You have Captain America on your team, do you seriously think that any of them really want to directly engage him when they have other options? My team is seriously faster than your team and has ultimate initiative once they take out DD which will be their first target.

Let's ask K4tz then for a ruling on whether or not my "your guys are Hand guys and as such fall into the completely killable category" is within the rules.

Regarding this, I would simply say apply logic to the scenario.  If you believe your team set would indeed have no gripe with killing Hand Ninjas, then you should be able to debate why they would do so. 

" @k4tzm4n: I think he means treating my entire team as resurrected hand zombies/mind controlled heroes as he mentioned earlier. It was his reasoning for his whole team using lethal force and working together as a unit."

" @Dane said:

" @k4tzm4n: I think he means treating my entire team as resurrected hand zombies/mind controlled heroes as he mentioned earlier. It was his reasoning for his whole team using lethal force and working together as a unit."

Oh, I thought it was restricted to the Hand ninjas. 
 
Regarding all characters: Characters will interact with other characters how they normally would, however add ons may change their methods.  However, no character will REFUSE to attack an enemy (IE Punisher to Captain America).  Assume Frank will treat Cap as he does all other heroes (assuming he isn't bloodlusted).  He won't want to kill them, but he'll want to defeat them to get them out of the way."

To be fair, it isn't my opinion to dispute how one chooses to use their team, but only to provide the ground rules.  If you feel some characters are not being used correctly, include it in your debate (which I have seen you do so far) and it will be up to the voters to determine if they agree. 

Hope that helps.

sounds alright to me :)

Punisher knows that Cap will inevitably throw his shield as it is his signature ranged attack. Taking this into consideration, he'll be waiting for the windup which Cap does when he is throwing the shield over long distances like a pitcher (not a belly itcher). While Frank's reflexes aren't sufficient to grab the shield out of the air, the tentacle is or do you really think that Doc Ock has sufficient reflexes to beat the crap out of Daredevil without the Tentacles as he did in Daredevil #165? The Tentacle will allow Frank to pluck the shield out of the air effortlessly when it is thrown. Even if Frank does get taken down, you still lose the Shield. There is no way that you can throw the shield into the air with nothing to ricochet it off and have it return. It is impossible, unless you can show me a scan of him doing it over 250 yards. This isn't a boomerang throw, he'll have to throw it like a spear in order to hit and spears don't come back. It didn't return to him after he took down that missile, it had to be retrieved. Pumpkin Bombs are impact-based bombs not timer-based grenadeswhich means he could drop them from a thousand yards up and they'd still only go off after hitting the ground. Some specific ones are timer-based but some specific ones also release gases and smoke and anti-Spider Sense gas. The Machine Gun and autopistol fire is simply to keep your people busy while he targets you with other weapons. Frank had no problem using the Satan's Claw which functions exactly like the Iron Man Gauntlet in this tourney. I never said that Frank could hit Steve with a repulsor blast because his shield would protect him but Clint on the other hand would not be able to get out of the way quickly enough. Frank has accuracy enough to almost put a bullet in Norman Osborne from at least a mile away, that is a very difficult shot to make.
 
Yeah, the Missile is a distraction to get Nightcrawler in to deploy his grenade. I also need to see a scan of Clint taking down a missile, keeping in mind that they travel far faster than bullets, so bullet dodging feats will not count. DD and Cap could likely do it but not Clint. If DD is distracted by taking down the missile then Nightcrawler can get in and drop the flash and sonic and disable your team allowing my team to BFR Daredevil. Flashbangs and Sonic grenades do no real lasting damage so Nightcrawler should have no real problem. They would be cool with Frank firing the missile because they know it won't kill anyone as someone will destroy it and your guys are Hand. I was hoping you would bring that up.  
 
Show me a scan of Nightcrawler being shot or tagged by someone at range as he is teleporting. All the scans, I have seen of him getting tagged are melee scans. We have seen him teleport out of the way of Cyclops' lightspeed optic blasts before without knowing they were coming not slower than sound arrows and grenades. This time, he not only knows that they will know he is coming but that they will be attempting to kill him so he'll be extra careful to stay in the real world for less than a second which is all he needs to drop the grenade. Nightcrawler also has the skills to dodge arrows and grenades outside of his teleportation powers as he is as acrobatic as Cap and DD if not more so because of how his skeleton is formatted. 

I was unaware of the Omega Red scan but I was under the impression that the robot wasn't adamantium. I'll have to go back and find it. 

Those Hand Ninjas if I remember correctly were teleported in by the Hand leaders, they are not capable of such a feat without their Hand-lers. 
 
I'll get to the rest later, my wife needs the computer.

" If DD is distracted by taking down the missile then Nightcrawler can get in and drop the flash and sonic and disable your team allowing my team to BFR Daredevil."
 
" Show me a scan of Nightcrawler being shot or tagged by someone at range as he is teleporting. All the scans, I have seen of him getting tagged are melee scans. We have seen him teleport out of the way of Cyclops' lightspeed optic blasts before without knowing they were coming not slower than sound arrows and grenades."
 
Let me take both of these out with one scan:

Sorry, Wednesdays I have School and Work almost back to back and my laptop's ac adapter fizzled out. I am having to use my wife's computer. 
 
You are right on many points, Dane. My team won't behave in such a manner given their morality issues. That is why I wished that I had gotten to debate the last 2 rounds because inevitably this error in judgement would have been revealed earlier and by the time I had gotten to you I would have a had a lean mean fighting machine. So, I went back to the drawing board and came up a with a moral plan that will allow my team to do what it needs to do to win without compromising.  I apologize for insulting your intelligence with my previous posts.
 
To make things less confusing my Daredevil will be Deddevil while yours will be Danedevil. 

To begin:
Deddevil fills in everyone on the whos and wheres of the enemy. They know they are bloodlusted due to the increased heartbeat and physical signs of being bloodlusted after all if you're happy and you know it then your face will surely show it. Now because you have Cap this will tell them that they need to work together. This is not to say that DD and Frank have beef but that Frank can be professional enough to accept help from one DD if he gets to wipe the smug look off of the other DD with Deddevil's blessing. I am relying on Frank's dislike of DD to get him to work with my team. I think we can both agree that no one will hesitate to kill the Hand Ninjas. Nightcrawler and DD have a lot in common so they'll have no problem working together. 
 
Just to update the equipment roster:
Frank: Everything not given to DD and NC
DD: Whiplash's Whip, Billy Clubs
NC: Cap's Shield, 3 Flashbangs, 3 Sonic Grenades, 5 Pumpkin Bombs
 
Non-Lethal weapons like Flashbangs and Sonic Grenades are the hallmark of good crowd control. Frank knows this and will convey that to the team. He'll tell them that the first thing they need to do is blind your team to my team's movements which means getting rid of Danedevil. There is a nice boat dock on the west side of the island that will provide my team with an easy means of disposing of your team members without killing them. Nightcrawler will use his dexterous feet to grab hold of the shield and then teleport above your team. Even if you know where he is the shield will take anything your can throw at it meaning that my Nightcrawler will be free to throw his grenades without a problem and teleport out. Letting go of the shield and grabbing it with his tail he frees his legs to grab Danedevil. The Sonic and Flashbang double whammy will leave your team unable to strike while Nightcrawler absconds with Danedevil. By this time, Deddevil and Frank should have arrived at the docks care of the Glider and Doc Ock's tentacle. Frank will be readying up a Iron Man Gauntlet punch for Danedevil when he arrives. This punch will not kill but will likely incapacitate but since the punch will also send you into the BFRing water it doesn't even have to do that. Nightcrawler at this time will be dropping in again and dropping the next salvo of grenades only this time stealing away Clint Barton. He will drop Clint off with Deddevil who will use Whiplash's Whip's tazer-like effect to knock Clint out cold for maybe an hour or so, effectively incapacitating him. This takes away your eyes and your main ranged advantage. Nightcrawler will take a brief breather and then locate the Hand Ninjas with Deddevil's help and drop off a Pumpkin Bomb for each of them. Hand Ninjas are unholy abominations anyways so he'll have no real moral objections to this. This makes this a 3 on 1. At this point, Nightcrawler will throw his last 2 grenades while Deddevil rushes Captain America, the sole aim of which to wrestle the shield away from him. Cap will be dazed by the Flash Bang and Sonic Grenade so this should be doable with a little electrical shock therapy loosening his grip. Nightcrawler then teleports him to the docks where Frank will salute as he throws his entire weight at Cap to knock them both into the BFRing Water. No deaths, no lasting damage for either team, though Danedevil will need a dentist. Simply put, my mobility advantage allows me to easily trump your martial prowess. 
 
If you would like I can respond to all of your previous points but I believe this revised plan to be full-proof.

" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "

you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "

you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "

LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "

Now things are getting interesting.

" @k4tzm4n said:

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "

you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "

LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "

well,you can check my debate with NeXus "

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "

you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "

LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "

well,you can check my debate with NeXus "

I  don't like to use tourny debates as examples.  Mainly because you enter the thread already taking a side, and attempting to make a case for that side...where-as a standard debate you're more willing (imo) to concede or convince others, perhaps even at a quicker rate.  Basically, in the tourny you have full command of your forces, in standard matches, you're merely an observer ;) "

" @k4tzm4n said:

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "

you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "

LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "

well,you can check my debate with NeXus "

I  don't like to use tourny debates as examples.  Mainly because you enter the thread already taking a side, and attempting to make a case for that side...where-as a standard debate you're more willing (imo) to concede or convince others, perhaps even at a quicker rate.  Basically, in the tourny you have full command of your forces, in standard matches, you're merely an observer ;) "

your entirely right,however this doesnt mean you can just ignore posts made during a tournament do you think my ``fight`` with Nexus can go either way or am is he going to get every vote? :( "