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#1 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

Dane's Team

Characters:
5- Captain America (Steve) - Shield.
5- Daredevil - Muramasa, Grenade Launcher, Billy Clubs.
5- Clint Barton - Bow, Arrows and 10 Exploding Arrows.

Addons:   
2- 5x Hand Ninjas.
1- Telepathic Link.
1- Gas/Pheromone Immunity.
3- Bloodlust.
3- Muramasa + Grenade Launcher.
 
 

DeadmanWalkin's Team

Characters:
11- High-Tec Punisher -  Goblin Glider, 20 pumpkin bombs, 1 of doc oc’s arms, replica of cap’s shield, iron man’s glove (with repulsor blast, 5 shots only), wrist blades, whiplash’s whip, 9mm automatic pistol,  pym particles (to reduce weapon size, making them easier to carry all).
7- Nightcrawler - Unarmed.
5- Daredevil - Billy Clubs.
 
Addons:
1- We Are One-Telepathic Link
1- Boom Baby!-3 each of various grenades and explosives. (3 of each for your team: flash bangs, incendiary grenades, sonic grenades, claymores, tear gas grenades) 
 
 

Setting:

The Setting is at twilight.   The moon is rising and the sun is setting. Only the exterior of the island is on limit.   Entering buildings is not allowed.  The location is unpopulated.   If a character is knocked into the surrounding waters, they are considered eliminated via BFR.

Blue Team = Dane |  Red Team =  DedmanWalkin
Blue Team = Dane |  Red Team = DedmanWalkin

 Rules:

- Please Quote or Reply to the person you are debating with. This avoids confusion as to who you were talking to and makes it easier to pick up arguments if one person has to leave for a while. It is going to be necessary with the number of people that will be arguing at once, so please follow this rule.
-Both Teams are aware of the situation.
-All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified.
- You ONLY have 25 points to construct your team. You will be disqualified if you are over this amount.
-Victory is by death, knockout, BFR or incapacitation.
-Team chemistry does come into play.
- There is no prep time, and teams have absolutely no knowledge of each other prior to the match.
-Characters with guns have unlimited ammo unless specified otherwise.
-Characters with bows/throwing knives have unlimited arrows/knives unless specified otherwise.
-Characters still need to reload.                                                                                                                                                  
-Your team MUST consist of at least 2 characters.                                                                                                      
-You may not use more than 3 add ons for a single character.   Team add ons do not contribute to this total.                                             
-No tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, or BFR.
-If a debater fails to show up for an extended period of time (greater than a week) then the moderators have a judgment call as to disqualify them.
-Winning teams will be immortalized in the , and their teams are off-limits for future tournaments.
-Assume characters will not be freaked out or question if another version of them is on the team (aka Winter Soldier and Bucky Cap, Bone claw & adamantium Wolverine, Ult Cap and 616 Cap, Venom Gargan and Scorpion, so on and so on)  
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#2 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

I assume you aren't going to just concede victory to me so I'll go ahead and start. 
 
As I have a some equipment to disperse, I’ll do that now.
Punisher: Doc Ock Tentacle, Glider, 10 Pumpkin Bombs, Iron Man Gauntlet, 9mm Autopistol, 3 Claymores, 3 Incendiary Grenades  
Daredevil: Whiplash’s Whip, Cap’s Shield
Nightcrawler: Wrist Blades, 10 Pumpkin Bombs, 3 Flash Bangs, 3 Sonic Grenades, 3 Tear Gas Grenades
 
Given that both of our teams has a Daredevil and a Telepathic Link, we can go ahead and assume that both of our teams know exactly where the other person's team members are at all times and since he has had dealings with all characters listed that both teams know exactly who they will be facing in this battle. So we can dispense with any discussions on stealth, tracking, and not knowing who they are dealing with. 
 
After assessing the situation, my team will conclude that taking out Daredevil is a priority as without him, you'll be running blind. Nightcrawler will immediately teleport to your team's location and drop a flash bang and a sonic grenade. Your team will then be disoriented for a couple seconds wherein Nightcrawler will grab Daredevil and teleport him to my teams location. Punisher, while he is teleporting, will have set up a claymore mine so that Nightcrawler can drop him in front and teleport out. Punisher detonates the mine and fires off a repulsor blast and then pulls out his autopistol and starts firing. Daredevil may be able to dodge shots without a problem but when he has been hit with a sonic grenade and a flash bang and also has suffered through Nightcrawler teleportation, which is disorienting for someone if Nightcrawler wants it to be, he will be too dazed to dodge or use that Muramasa. 
 
Without your Daredevil, my team now has a mobility and awareness advantage. Simply put, my team can move across the island completely without your knowledge and can avoid your entire team. With unrestricted movement, my team gets to choose when and where a battle takes place. You have 3 options here; 1: Camp at your starting location, 2: Spread out across the island and look for my team, 3: Sweep the island as a team moving as one unit.
 
Option 1: Nightcrawler teleports in and bombards the area with Pumpkin Bombs likely killing your Hand Ninjas and Clint Barton. The pumpkin bomb burns hot enough to melt through 3 inches of Steel and with the 20 foot radius K4tz established Nightcrawler should be able to lay down at least 100x100 feet of burning destruction. Captain America will likely survive because he is Captain America. Captain America will then be at the mercy of 3 very powerful opponents. Before deciding to get in close, they pile on the grenades and pumpkin bombs. If Cap survives, Matt and Frank go in. Matt keeps Cap distracted while Frank moves in with the Tentacle to the foot. Once he gets a hold of him, he lifts Cap in the air and waits for the shield throw. Daredevil intercepts the shield as he is the only one with the skill. Hanging upside down and without his shield, Cap has no protection against the Repulsor Blast that Frank finishes this with.
 
Option 2: This is the stupidest option your could choose as my team can eliminate your team without wasting any pumpkin bombs just by isolating and killing them. 
 
Option 3: This plays out like Option 1 but my team uses a trap to do it. 
 
Any way you slice it, my team has the edge in mobility and firepower allowing me to choose the when and where of every battle that is fought giving me a decided advantage here. 

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#3 Posted by Andferne (38281 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck you two.
 
@DedmanWalkin said:

"I assume you aren't going to just concede victory to me so I'll go ahead and start."
lol
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#4 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate to intrude, but I couldn't help but comment...Dedman, do you really believe Kurt would take part in something that would result in the death of his opponent?
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#5 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

Firstly, I'll start by saying It's 4am here but I'll post my response later today. Secondly, best of luck to you regardless of my own stake in the debate.
 
I will however point out two immediate flaws:
1. Your team isn't bloodlusted and DD/NC won't do half the things you've said for that reason alone.
2. Your team doesn't have a teamwork addon and DD/NC won't work with a known killer like Frank Castle.
 
I'll provide support for both of these when I post my response to your post.

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#6 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll wait till you have more time to reply so the thread doesn't get bogged down in posts.

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#7 Posted by Power NeXus (10283 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:  

Firstly, I'll start by saying It's 4am here but I'll post my response later today. 

 
A-HA!! 
If my calculations are correct, you live in Australia.
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#8 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Power NeXus said:
" @Dane:  

Firstly, I'll start by saying It's 4am here but I'll post my response later today. 

 A-HA!! If my calculations are correct, you live in Australia. "
I do, but Prima solved the puzzle yesterday :P
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#9 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin: ok counter-argument.
 
Your teamwork and gear distribution is off. The most important part of building a team is making a cohesive unit.  There is a reason why teamwork and bloodlust addons cost points and I won't let you assume you have them when you don't. With morals on Daredevil has shown many times that he won't kill someone even if they've murdered his loved ones. It's simply not on the cards that he will attack his friends with Whiplash's Whip or work with Frank Castle at all. Nightcrawler will go one step further, he doesn't just have rules against killing, he won't tolerate people who do and will even physically restrain teammates who do:

No Caption Provided


No Caption Provided


With morals on, if Frank Castle proposes a plan to kill Daredevil, Captain America and Hawkeye - Nightcrawler would actually have more chance of joining my team than carrying out your orders. He certainly wouldn't agree to carry in explosives like a suicide bomber.
 
Theres also the fact that Punisher has refused to raise a hand to Steve Rogers. Your whole battle plan needs to be rethought because the one you've proposed won't work with the team you have.
 
To address your battle plan:
 
Daredevil will know you have Nightcrawler on your team and my team will be expecting a bamf. Daredevil will be able to smell the brimstone and pre-emptively attack where he's going to teleport the same way Wolverine does. Except my DD has his M-Blade/Grenade Launcher so if you choose that tactic NC will die straight away.  Since he's bloodlusted he won't have any trouble killing Kurt as quickly as possible.  Wolverine tags Nightcrawler pretty easy and he doesn't have the senses that Daredevil does.
 
Let's not forget, DD's reflexes > Elektra's reflexes > Wolverine's reflexes:

No Caption Provided

Since you haven't given Punisher any means of protection whatsoever, he'll get one-shot by Hawkeye. He has very little experience on the glider so, pre-emptively speaking, let's not compare him to Norman Osborn or anything. A volley of exploding arrows would knock Frank off his glider but honestly he doesn't need it. One arrow through the brain will end Frank quicker than Daken on an acidtrip.
 
My bloodlusted Captain America vs your regular Daredevil with equipment he isn't used to using isn't even a fight. Cap would destroy him.
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#10 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought this tournament had the "Willing to Kill" rule turned on. I know Luna's did so I assumed it was on here. Either way it has no real bearing because you have made some choices that ultimately hinders your team in this battle. I may not have Bloodlust or Team Cohesion but I do have:
-All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified.
 
You have 5 Hand Ninjas, 1 Character who is supposed to be dead, 1 character who came back from the dead through vaguely explained circumstances, and a duplicate of Daredevil. What organization has at one time targeted superheroes for use as super agents? Has come after Daredevil many times? Has the means to possibly procure and resurrect dead heroes? Has the resources to possibly magically or technologically clone a person they have sought many times to lead their troops? And has 5 agents on Alcatraz Island? Your guys are also Bloodlusted which is the same state that Wolverine, Elektra, Northstar, and a multitude of other villains were in when they were raised by this organization. Heck, they even have a duplicate of magic sword that was last implanted into Daken and one of their guys has taken the name Ronin recently which is a name that comes from where this organization originated. All of this evidence would certainly lead someone like Daredevil to believe that your entire team was assembled by another off shoot of the Hand to kill him and take leadership of the Hand away from him. Tell me how does Daredevil generally deal with the Hand? Do you think that he could convince Nightcrawler of all of this? Do you think it would take anything at all to convince Frank? So maybe my team may not be bloodlusted and willing to outright kill but they will certainly be okay with allowing Frank to do it. Is Daredevil bloodlusted when he fights the Hand? Is Daredevil bloodlusted when he fights criminals? Since they have an "Evil" Captain America, he will definitely be okay with murdering him because he has a problem with anyone trying to defile Captain America's memory given he took on an all new Hatemonger and his army just to stop him from misusing Cap's legacy. Do you think anyone of them would hesitate to kill any of the Hand ninjas? Nightcrawler wouldn't stand for someone dragging Cap, Clint, or Daredevil's souls from Heaven for nefarious purposes. Given the circumstances, I am pretty sure that Daredevil will find Frank to be a useful ally here. Choosing Hand Ninjas and Bloodlust ultimately hurt your team's chances here.
 
You always assume that when Nightcrawler teleports, he has to teleport within melee range of his targets. If Nightcrawler teleports above your people and drops the grenades and teleports there is nothing beyond trying to shoot him that you can do. He has shown that he can out-teleport Cyclops firing at him so Ronin, DD, Cap, and your Ninjas will be unable to put a weapon into him before the grenade goes off and knocks all your people for a loop. Once he takes DD from you, your team is blind. I don't necessarily need Punisher Nightcrawler to bombard your team, I can have Punisher do it from 250 yards up well out of the range of everything but Captain America's Shield. He'll have no problems killing the Ninjas and Clint since he is supposed to be dead anyways. Likewise once he has Cap in his Tentacle he'll likely salute as he fires, maybe saying something like "This is for Steve!"
 
If need be, I can alter my plan to be completely removed of any hint of Bloodlust by replacing death with BFR. Also, Frank could act as his own agent here using his telepathic link to leech the information he needs to get the job done.

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#11 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin: Absolute hog-wash.  

From OP: " Assume characters will not be freaked out or question if another version of them is on the team (aka Winter Soldier and Bucky Cap, Bone claw & adamantium Wolverine, Ult Cap and 616 Cap, Venom Gargan and Scorpion, so on and so on)" 

"All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified."
 
"Team chemistry does come into play." 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
My team isn't the Hand and even if it was that wouldn't make Nightcrawler and Daredevil willing to kill. Didn't you see the scan I posted of Nightcrawler? He attacked a fellow X-Man for using lethal force against an enemy that was trying to hunt and murder the only savior for mutant-kind. That was after Cyclops told him to 'bring her back safe, no matter what the cost'. No one is convincing him to start hurling pumpkin bombs at Captain America.
 
"Nightcrawler wouldn't stand for someone dragging Cap, Clint, or Daredevil's souls from Heaven for nefarious purposes."
 
I'm sorry I must have missed the post where bloodlusted characters magically became zombies for you alone. None of my characters are even dead, what are on you on about? 
 
If you really want to bring up character deaths, isn't Frank Castle currently an undead abomination? I'm sure that'll endear the trust of his teammates when he wants to kill some legendary heroes.
 
Post a scan of Nightcrawler or Daredevil ever using lethal force the way you say they will with morals turned on or never mention those strategies again. 
 
Telepathic Link is mental walky-talkies. Punisher can't leech sensory information from your team.
 
And your Nightcrawler doesn't have to be in melee range to die. Daredevil can detect when and where he'll teleport with his senses and shoot a grenade at his face. If you teleport toward my team while they're expecting it your Nightcrawler will die.
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#12 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

Absolute hog-wash.       

*spits drink, hands Dane an award for actually using the phrase 'hog-wash'* 
 
 
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#13 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
"

Absolute hog-wash.       

*spits drink, hands Dane an award for actually using the phrase 'hog-wash'*    "

*poses with award*
 
It's too bad I passed up the chance to use the words "team synergy" - which everyone in business knows is a 10 ton hammer for any argument.
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#14 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
"

Absolute hog-wash.       

*spits drink, hands Dane an award for actually using the phrase 'hog-wash'*    "

*poses with award*  It's too bad I passed up the chance to use the words "team synergy" - which everyone in business knows is a 10 ton hammer for any argument. "

HAH.  Thankfully, I was a communications major.  I gone done speaks good!
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#15 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Every great business plan will have the words "flow" and "synergy" in them. I did a few courses in Informatics, it's basically the science of making confusing IT graphs for business administrators who won't understand but will be so impressed they'll agree to any amount of project funding you ask for.

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#16 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @k4tzm4n: Every great business plan will have the words "flow" and "synergy" in them. I did a few courses in Informatics, it's basically the science of making confusing IT graphs for business administrators who won't understand but will be so impressed they'll agree to any amount of project funding you ask for. "

Ah, yes.  Charts and graphs which have no sound facts behind them are always of great use against people who are clueless.
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#17 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

It says that they won't question a duplicate on there own team not enemy teams so your unallied, unlinked Daredevil would be viewed with some suspicion. The examples given suggest different versions not exact duplicates. Don't you think that Daredevil would find it odd that there are 5 Hand Ninjas on the island that aren't under his control as the Leader of the Hand? The person Nightcrawler saves is a misguided human not possibly a brainwashed abomination of evil magic. 
 
What was the standard procedure for dealing with Hand-washed (lol) Heroes? Neutralization and decapitation, they only tried to cure Wolverine because you can't decapitate him due to his powers and skeleton as this was before the Muramasa. Northstar was only saved because Wolverine felt guilty. Nightcrawler certainly tried to help in the neutralization process when Wolverine attacked but couldn't bring himself to do the decapitation of Northstar but was okay with almost allowing Elektra to do it. Frank will be playing the part of the hot Greek ninja in this play. I can even put him in a skimpy red outfit if you'd like. 
 
Daredevil has killed hundreds of Hand ninjas maybe thousands, this will be no different. Nightcrawler has killed before, has absolutely no problem with killing demons in Limbo, and allowed Beast to use the Skrull Bible to create a weapon of mass genocide to stop the Skrulls. Did Nightcrawler kill any undead mutants in Necrosha? 
 
What happens if someone else has a Walky-Talky set to your Walky-Talky's frequency? You can hear everything they are saying. When Nightcrawler and Daredevil inevitably begin their plan he'll know the when's and the where's allowing him to intercept.
 
 I need sleep but I'll be back tomorrow.

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#18 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin: 
 
On topic, let's look at this. You've said since we both have Daredevil it'll likely come down to a straight fight. I mean you've said your team has greater mobility but since Frank's glider is loud enough to be heard by regular humans and Nightcrawler's teleport is heralded by the smell of brimstone you won't actually be able to surprise my team by any means.
 
So let's look at a straight fight:
 

Captain America

 
Cap vs Frank - Cap is fast enough to dodge pumpkin bombs from the real Green Goblin. Let's not pretend Frank has any skill with the glider that would apporach that and he has no body armor or durability like GG. There is nothing Frank could throw at him that Cap couldn't dodge with ease. On the other hand, a bloodlusted Cap has both the skill and the necessary equipment to throw he shield straight through Frank, his glider and any weapons he might be carrying all at the same time. Frank get's his head seperated from his body (again). Captain America can throw his shield so hard and fast he can intercept missiles from behind. He can throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it. Frank would get destroyed here.
 
Cap vs Nightcrawler - Due to the TP Link, my Daredevil would warn Cap of Nightcrawler coming. Cap has reflexes and tactical skill to match or beat anyone who has predicted Nightcrawler's teleport blitzes. In terms of fighting skills, Steve Rogers makes Kurt Wagner look like a kid waving a stick. Steve has tagged guys like Spider-Man with ease, Kurt is not fast or skilled enough to pull this off.
 
Cap vs DD - This is basically DD with weapons he hasn't used before vs bloodlusted Cap with the shield he is the master of. You've actually put DD at a disadvantage by giving him this equipment. But Steve would win a straight fight either way.
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verdict: No one on your team can take down Steve Rogers.
 

Clint Barton

 
Clint vs Frank - Clint might look like the weakest member of my team but he would easily take Frank, who is arguably your strongest. It comes down to this: a guy on a flying machine he's never used before throwing grenades from above vs a guy who is completely in his element hitting a moving target with a volley of exploding arrows. Which do you think goes faster, a grenade being thrown or an arrow being shot from a bow? Who do you think has the element of surprise, a guy wearing an entirely black suit at night or a guy rolling along on a jet powered glider?
 
Clint vs Nightcrawler - Probably your best match up. Has Clint taken down better fighters? Yes, by the dozen. If this was a one on one solely, NC would take the win. However, Clint does have DD telling him exactly when and where Nightcrawler will teleport and he has a stock of exploding arrows to light him up. Again, if you put him at distance, arrows are faster than grenades. If he's in melee range it's nunchucks vs fists. Nightcrawler might be able to evade Cyclops but Cyclops doesn't have DD's senses. Wolverine can beat Nightcrawler where Cyclops cannot through reflexes and enhanced senses. I'm not saying Clint would win the majority in a one on one but if Nightcrawler attacks from range, Clint will know where he's going to teleport before he begins and an explosive arrow will end him.
 
Clint vs Daredevil - Another good match up for you. DD is too fast to be hit by Clint and has him beat even after Clint's recent display of fighting skills where he took down most of the Dark Avengers solo. Clint can't feasibly beat DD in close quarters but he'll be warned of his approach and DD will have to cover a lot of ground before he can get to Clint. As I've shown in previous threads, the ability to narrowly dodge bullets will not avail you against explosive arrows. If DD tries to dodge a volley of 3-5 at once he will have to be several feat away from all of them to avoid losing a limb. If Clint fired them in a circle around DD he could almost guarantee maiming him before he's close enough to inflict damage.
 
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Verdict: Although he's at a disadvantage, Clint could severely maim Nightcrawler and Daredevil by using a well placed volley of explosive arrows. He could take out Frank easily or pre-emptively attack where Nightcrawler is going to teleport and end him with a single arrow.
 
 

Daredevil

 
DD vs Frank - No matter which way you try to cut it with zombie moral/whatevers. Frank has no means to take down Daredevil. He has bloodlusted, an M-Blade and a Grenade Launcher. If Frank gets close enough he'll be cut into pieces. If Frank stays at longer range he'll be blown to pieces. DD's senses allow him a degree of accuracy that is unmatched in Marvel Universe even among Bullseye and Clint Barton. There is nothing Frank could do on a glider to avoid him. There is nothing Frank can throw at him that Daredevil can't dodge.
 
DD vs Nightcrawler - He beats NC for every reason Wolverine does times 5. He has better senses. He won't hold back. He has a Muramasa Blade that can cut through anything. He has a Grenade Launcher with superhuman accuracy. Stun grenades and flashbangs are irrelevant. He can predict his teleportation before it happens. He can kill him at any distance. No contest.
 
DD vs DD - I gave my Daredevil bloodlust and a sword, with which he is a master, defeating samurai and ninja by the hundreds. You gave your Daredevil a shield he has never used or trained with and a whip he has never used or trained with. My sword can cut through your shield and your whip. There is no debating here. I have created a superior character.  
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Verdict: No one on your team can defeat my Daredevil.
 
 
On the whole I don't think your team has that much of a chance and you're grasping at straws by trying to give your team synergy and bloodlust without having purchased the addons. I mean no disrespect but I tire of irrelevant scenarios where my team are zombies or whatever excuse you need to make Daredevil and Nightcrawlers into killers who will work with Frank Castle. My team has that respect and trust without loony backstories and the bloodlust and weapon addons simply make them more deadly than they originally were.
 
If you really must continue with ignoring morality for your characters you will post scans of DD or Nightcrawler killing another human character. Not demons or zombies, or possessed souls. People. My characters are Captain America, Clint Barton and Daredevil. There is nothing you can twist to unmake this fact. They aren't duplicates or creatures from another dimension. Argue against the team I have with the team you have. Nothing more or less.
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#19 Posted by Andferne (38281 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
"Captain America can  throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it."
With his eyes closed.
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#20 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Andferne said:
" @Dane said:
"Captain America can  throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it."
With his eyes closed. "

Just curious: has he done this before? lol
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#21 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Andferne said:
" @Dane said:
"Captain America can  throw it so accurately he ricochet it off walls and switch off a lighter without damaging it."
With his eyes closed. "

No Caption Provided

Yes sir :P
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#22 Posted by Andferne (38281 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
"Just curious: has he done this before? lol "
Yuppers, Dane just posted the scan for it.
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#23 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

*jaw drops* Dayumn! lol
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#24 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: Yep, Captain America is the man for feats. Check this one out:
 

No Caption Provided

Imagine what a bloodlusted Cap is going to do when Frank Castle wobbles in on his Goblin Glider with no body armor. Yeah, boosh.
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#25 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before.
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#26 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "
Yeah, Steve Rogers is mind-bendingly spastic-good with that shield.
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#27 Posted by Andferne (38281 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "
I've posted it before. A lot >_<
runs off crying to his room
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#28 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "
Yeah, Steve Rogers is mind-bendingly spastic-good with that shield."

Meh, he's alright. Personally, I think Armless Tiger Man should wield the shield. 
 
 
@Andferne
said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Yeah, I've just never seen the lighter incident before. "
I've posted it before. A lot >_<
runs off crying to his room "

LOL.  I've seen plenty of others, but never that one =P 
 
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#29 Posted by Andferne (38281 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
"LOL.  I've seen plenty of others, but never that one =P   "
I think it has to do with me posting so many feats at once. lol Becomes a scan overload. xP
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#30 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
"LOL.  I've seen plenty of others, but never that one =P   "

Doth what she hath said, gentle knight.
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#31 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Maximum Range for any Bow is about 200 Yards. Maximum Range for most grenade Launchers is about 160 Yards. That means that Frank flying at 250 yards will be invulnerable to everything but Captain America's shield. Keep in mind these ranges are firing horizontally not vertically which lowers the maximum range. Simply put, Clint, DD, and your Hand Ninjas are useless against Frank since he won't try to engage at close range knowing that he is no real match for many of the people on your team. Keep in mind that if you throw the shield you likely lose it which leaves your team at a disadvantage. Frank also has the advantage of a HEAT SEEKING MISSILE which will hit the person he targets such as Daredevil which will blind your team to my team's movements. Frank's Glider also allows him to drop his pumpkin bombs and gives him a machine gun in addition to the 9mm autopistol and Iron Man's Gauntlet which can easily take down Clint thanks to Frank's accuracy and the AOE of the blast. Your only option at this point is to lose the shield which thanks to Frank's Tentacle, he could catch. I could actually make the case that Frank with his gear could solo this because you have no weapons in your arsenal that can hit him save for 1 that you lose once you use it.
 
WHY DO YOU ALWAYS ASSUME THAT NIGHTCRAWLER HAS TO TELEPORT INTO MELEE RANGE? Every time you talk about Nightcrawler you assume that he teleports within 3 feet of his target which given the martial prowess of these guys Nightcrawler would avoid. He has non-lethal grenades that he can throw at a distance that could disable your entire team long enough for him to strike without anyone striking back. It is like you think Nightcrawler is retarded who likes to get pummeled by enemies. Nightcrawler is a very skilled thinker and fighter. Stop suggesting that your team stands any chance against NIghtcrawler with Flashbangs and Sonic Grenades. Also just like you said, the TP link is like walky talkies which means that in the time it takes for Daredevil to sense Nightcrawler and then tell Clint, Nightcrawler will already have 'ported in and 'ported out and any weapon you fire will hit nothing but smoke. If Nightcrawler plays this correctly and eliminates Daredevil first he could easily eliminate all but maybe Cap without any real problems teleporting them to the docks and kicking them in the water thus BFRing them without violating the Tele-BFR rule and without killing anyone on your team.
 
About the only person on my team who couldn't nearly solo your team is Daredevil and since he is functioning as a Radar anyways he doesn't have to even fight anyone till we get to Cap. Cap is the only person on your team that even stands a chance but once it becomes a 3 on 1 he will go down to Nightcrawler's teleportation, Frank's brutal lethality, and Daredevil's incredible skills. Also, what makes you think he has to use either weapon I have given him. Does he always use his billy clubs? No, he is smart enough to choose when to use weapons and when to stow them. Also remember that Daredevil isn't used to using any gun much less a grenade launcher so his aim and capability with it will be much lower.

The Muramasa won't cut Cap's Shield! The one feat it has of cutting through adamantium could be easily explained by the fact that only Sabretooth's bones were adamantium and not his connective tissue like Wolverine which would allow his limbs and head to be severed if struck in places that are held together by connective tissue.
 
The "Lighter Incident" isn't really that impressive given that he set up the lighter, chose the location he was throwing from, and has a photographic memory. If it was in the middle of combat it would be impressive but outside of combat it is little more than a magic trick. However, bringing down the missile with the shield is pretty damned impressive.

Let's ask K4tz then for a ruling on whether or not my "your guys are Hand guys and as such fall into the completely killable category" is within the rules. It won't make my guys bloodlusted or provide team synergy it will just provide them with the "in character" motive they need to work together and take down the competition.  
 
I never said that this would be a straight up fight, I said that we can dispense with any stealth, tracking, or unknowns given Daredevil's powers. You have Captain America on your team, do you seriously think that any of them really want to directly engage him when they have other options? My team is seriously faster than your team and has ultimate initiative once they take out DD which will be their first target.

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#32 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin:
 
"Maximum Range for any Bow is about 200 Yards. Maximum Range for most grenade Launchers is about 160 Yards. That means that Frank flying at 250 yards will be invulnerable to everything but Captain America's shield."
 
Which would be good except Captain America's shield will cut him in half and won't ever miss. That's kind of important. 
 
"Keep in mind these ranges are firing horizontally not vertically which lowers the maximum range. Simply put, Clint, DD, and your Hand Ninjas are useless against Frank since he won't try to engage at close range knowing that he is no real match for many of the people on your team.
 
Since Hand Ninja have engaged Iron Man in mid-air I don't think they'll have trouble with Frank Castle on a glider. Also, I'm not sure how much you know about Clint Barton but hitting moving targets is something he's been doing for awhile now. If Frank is flying that high above everyone his grenades will explode before they hit the ground. If my grenade launcher is out of range, so is your guy throwing them manually.  
 
"Keep in mind that if you throw the shield you likely lose it which leaves your team at a disadvantage."
 
I've already shown Steve throwing the shield, having it do a series of complex movements and then return to him. Bouncing his shield off things and having it come back is a very basic Captain America feat that he does all the time.
 
"Frank also has the advantage of a HEAT SEEKING MISSILE which will hit the person he targets such as Daredevil which will blind your team to my team's movements."
 
Everyone on my team has the accuracy and ranged ability to intercept a missile long before it hits them. Daredevil's grenade launcher/billy clubs, Hawkeye's arrows, Captain America's shield. Can your team say the same about my ranged threats? 
 
"Frank's Glider also allows him to drop his pumpkin bombs and gives him a machine gun in addition to the 9mm autopistol and Iron Man's Gauntlet which can easily take down Clint thanks to Frank's accuracy and the AOE of the blast."
 
Really, a machine gun? I'm sure Steve Rogers and co will be sweating in their sleep about that for years to come. The real Iron Man couldn't hit Steve with his gauntlets so I don't know where you're pulling "Frank's accuracy" from, considering it's a weapon he's never used. What area of effect are you talking about? Clint and Daredevil have both dodged better than Frank Castle so I'm not sure what you mean by "Frank's accuracy"
 

 
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I probably shouldn't like to bring up Frank Castle's accuracy against my team if I was you. And that's with a weapon he actually knows how to use.
 

"Your only option at this point is to lose the shield which thanks to Frank's Tentacle, he could catch.
 
I'm sure Avengers comics would have ended a long time ago if Captain America was as retarded as you seem to think. And really, Frank Castle trumping Steve Roger's reactions?
 

"I could actually make the case that Frank with his gear could solo this because you have no weapons in your arsenal that can hit him save for 1 that you lose once you use it."
 
I'd like to see that case considering he has nothing that can hurt them. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that Frank Castle's accuracy is superior to that of Daredevil, Clint Barton and Steve Rogers. My team has much better dodge feats and much better protection. I've said it before but I'll say it again, the second Frank gets in range to use any of his weapons, my team will know he's coming and have a volley of arrows or a shield prepped to go through his brain. I'm not sure how that fact has been avoided in your strategy but theres no amount of low-balling you can do to take away the years of feats I have to back it up.
 
"WHY DO YOU ALWAYS ASSUME THAT NIGHTCRAWLER HAS TO TELEPORT INTO MELEE RANGE? Every time you talk about Nightcrawler you assume that he teleports within 3 feet of his target which given the martial prowess of these guys Nightcrawler would avoid. He has non-lethal grenades that he can throw at a distance that could disable your entire team long enough for him to strike without anyone striking back. It is like you think Nightcrawler is retarded who likes to get pummeled by enemies. Nightcrawler is a very skilled thinker and fighter."
 
I kind of wonder if you read my post. Really, I already mentioned he can teleport at any range and still die as soon as he teleports. I said earlier the range of my team's grenade launcher/arrows is greater than the range of NC throwing grenades by hand. It's a simple fact. Any range he can teleport at will be predicted by Daredevil's senses. DD doesn't need anyone else to help him kill Nightcrawler.
 
At range he hits him in the head with a grenade, at melee he turns him into blue steak with the M-Blade and he always knows exactly when and where he's coming. My team has a bullet-proof counter for Nightcrawler, deal with it.
 
"About the only person on my team who couldn't nearly solo your team is Daredevil and since he is functioning as a Radar anyways he doesn't have to even fight anyone till we get to Cap."
 
Yeah, if everything goes to your plan that I already debunked twice. Your teamwork and bloodlust still isn't there and only Frank will do the things you're claiming.
 
"Also remember that Daredevil isn't used to using any gun much less a grenade launcher so his aim and capability with it will be much lower."
 
Really, looks like he picked up the skill pretty quickly against Bullseye. He even shot something out of his hand.
 

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Don't lowball DD's accuracy or weapon skill :(
 
 
"The Muramasa won't cut Cap's Shield! The one feat it has of cutting through adamantium could be easily explained by the fact that only Sabretooth's bones were adamantium and not his connective tissue like Wolverine which would allow his limbs and head to be severed if struck in places that are held together by connective tissue."
 
Wolverine has used it to cut through SHIVA (a solid adamantium robot) and through Omega Red's armor/skin which was easily resistant to adamantium. Didn't you find it odd that when Wolverine fought Captain America with it he never managed to land a blow against Cap's shield? It's because he didn't want to lose it. When it says it cuts through anything, that's what it means.
 

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"The "Lighter Incident" isn't really that impressive given that he set up the lighter, chose the location he was throwing from, and has a photographic memory. If it was in the middle of combat it would be impressive but outside of combat it is little more than a magic trick. However, bringing down the missile with the shield is pretty damned impressive."
 
Please decide in advance that you want to doubt the credibility of Mr. Steve Rogers. I'll bring my customary avalanche of scans.
 
"Let's ask K4tz then for a ruling on whether or not my "your guys are Hand guys and as such fall into the completely killable category" is within the rules. It won't make my guys bloodlusted or provide team synergy it will just provide them with the "in character" motive they need to work together and take down the competition.
 
You can ask k4tz for anything you like. It won't change the fact that 2/3 of your team members won't kill or take part in any plan that involves killing (and involves Frank Castle).  

"I never said that this would be a straight up fight, I said that we can dispense with any stealth, tracking, or unknowns given Daredevil's powers. You have Captain America on your team, do you seriously think that any of them really want to directly engage him when they have other options? My team is seriously faster than your team and has ultimate initiative once they take out DD which will be their first target."  
 
Yes, I'm sure flying in throwing pumpkin bombs will confuse and disorientate my team beyond belief. I'm sure none of them have ever faced every single member of your team. This is also somehow avoiding that fact that my team will know you're coming.
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#33 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


Let's ask K4tz then for a ruling on whether or not my "your guys are Hand guys and as such fall into the completely killable category" is within the rules.

Regarding this, I would simply say apply logic to the scenario.  If you believe your team set would indeed have no gripe with killing Hand Ninjas, then you should be able to debate why they would do so. 

 

 

 

 

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#34 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: I think he means treating my entire team as resurrected hand zombies/mind controlled heroes as he mentioned earlier. It was his reasoning for his whole team using lethal force and working together as a unit.
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#35 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @k4tzm4n: I think he means treating my entire team as resurrected hand zombies/mind controlled heroes as he mentioned earlier. It was his reasoning for his whole team using lethal force and working together as a unit."

Oh, I thought it was restricted to the Hand ninjas. 
 
Regarding all characters: Characters will interact with other characters how they normally would, however add ons may change their methods.  However, no character will REFUSE to attack an enemy (IE Punisher to Captain America).  Assume Frank will treat Cap as he does all other heroes (assuming he isn't bloodlusted).  He won't want to kill them, but he'll want to defeat them to get them out of the way.
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#36 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:

" @Dane said:

" @k4tzm4n: I think he means treating my entire team as resurrected hand zombies/mind controlled heroes as he mentioned earlier. It was his reasoning for his whole team using lethal force and working together as a unit."

Oh, I thought it was restricted to the Hand ninjas. 
 
Regarding all characters: Characters will interact with other characters how they normally would, however add ons may change their methods.  However, no character will REFUSE to attack an enemy (IE Punisher to Captain America).  Assume Frank will treat Cap as he does all other heroes (assuming he isn't bloodlusted).  He won't want to kill them, but he'll want to defeat them to get them out of the way."
I have no problem with Frank being who he is 95% of the time. What about Nightcrawler and Daredevil? I mean the way he's saying it like they're in this to kill and will go to any lengths etc. Nightcrawler teleporting in with grenades and whatnot. I mean I've shown scans that indicate Nightcrawler won't be a party to any mission that involves killing, let alone taking part in it himself from the first page.
 
I can refute his tactics and assertions until the vote opens up and leave it to the voters to decide or you could make a judicial decision. Either way is fine for me.
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#37 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio


To be fair, it isn't my opinion to dispute how one chooses to use their team, but only to provide the ground rules.  If you feel some characters are not being used correctly, include it in your debate (which I have seen you do so far) and it will be up to the voters to determine if they agree. 

 

Hope that helps.

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#38 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

sounds alright to me :)

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#39 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher knows that Cap will inevitably throw his shield as it is his signature ranged attack. Taking this into consideration, he'll be waiting for the windup which Cap does when he is throwing the shield over long distances like a pitcher (not a belly itcher). While Frank's reflexes aren't sufficient to grab the shield out of the air, the tentacle is or do you really think that Doc Ock has sufficient reflexes to beat the crap out of Daredevil without the Tentacles as he did in Daredevil #165? The Tentacle will allow Frank to pluck the shield out of the air effortlessly when it is thrown. Even if Frank does get taken down, you still lose the Shield. There is no way that you can throw the shield into the air with nothing to ricochet it off and have it return. It is impossible, unless you can show me a scan of him doing it over 250 yards. This isn't a boomerang throw, he'll have to throw it like a spear in order to hit and spears don't come back. It didn't return to him after he took down that missile, it had to be retrieved. Pumpkin Bombs are impact-based bombs not timer-based grenadeswhich means he could drop them from a thousand yards up and they'd still only go off after hitting the ground. Some specific ones are timer-based but some specific ones also release gases and smoke and anti-Spider Sense gas. The Machine Gun and autopistol fire is simply to keep your people busy while he targets you with other weapons. Frank had no problem using the Satan's Claw which functions exactly like the Iron Man Gauntlet in this tourney. I never said that Frank could hit Steve with a repulsor blast because his shield would protect him but Clint on the other hand would not be able to get out of the way quickly enough. Frank has accuracy enough to almost put a bullet in Norman Osborne from at least a mile away, that is a very difficult shot to make.
 
Yeah, the Missile is a distraction to get Nightcrawler in to deploy his grenade. I also need to see a scan of Clint taking down a missile, keeping in mind that they travel far faster than bullets, so bullet dodging feats will not count. DD and Cap could likely do it but not Clint. If DD is distracted by taking down the missile then Nightcrawler can get in and drop the flash and sonic and disable your team allowing my team to BFR Daredevil. Flashbangs and Sonic grenades do no real lasting damage so Nightcrawler should have no real problem. They would be cool with Frank firing the missile because they know it won't kill anyone as someone will destroy it and your guys are Hand. I was hoping you would bring that up.  
 
Show me a scan of Nightcrawler being shot or tagged by someone at range as he is teleporting. All the scans, I have seen of him getting tagged are melee scans. We have seen him teleport out of the way of Cyclops' lightspeed optic blasts before without knowing they were coming not slower than sound arrows and grenades. This time, he not only knows that they will know he is coming but that they will be attempting to kill him so he'll be extra careful to stay in the real world for less than a second which is all he needs to drop the grenade. Nightcrawler also has the skills to dodge arrows and grenades outside of his teleportation powers as he is as acrobatic as Cap and DD if not more so because of how his skeleton is formatted. 

I was unaware of the Omega Red scan but I was under the impression that the robot wasn't adamantium. I'll have to go back and find it. 

Those Hand Ninjas if I remember correctly were teleported in by the Hand leaders, they are not capable of such a feat without their Hand-lers. 
 
I'll get to the rest later, my wife needs the computer.

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#40 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@DedmanWalkin: 
 
Daredevil #165 was printed in 1980. Back then Bat-Roc the Leaper was a legitimate threat to the Avengers. If you want to prove that Doc Oc has superhuman reflexes by virtue of his tentacles you should come up with something a bit more recent. The only thing Frank Castle would be plucking the shield out of will be his forehead. 
 
 
And it doesn't look like DD is having any trouble dodging him.
 
"This isn't a boomerang throw, he'll have to throw it like a spear in order to hit and spears don't come back. It didn't return to him after he took down that missile, it had to be retrieved.

I've never seen Captain America throw anything like a spear so I don't know where that comes from. And he still manages to take out things much faster moving and much further away than Frank will be. If you're conceding that Frank can be one shot and I've already shown that Nightcrawler will be one shot the second he teleports then you're down to one man. A shieldless Captain America could solo DD let alone with help from Clint and DD w/ M-Blade. 
 
"Pumpkin Bombs are impact-based bombs not timer-based grenadeswhich means he could drop them from a thousand yards up and they'd still only go off after hitting the ground"
 
A) I'm pretty sure regular humans could hardly even see targets from a thousand yards away without aid from equipment. Especially since this is at night. So have fun with Frank's accuracy there.
 
B) My team dodge shotguns at point blank for breakfast so good luck at a thousand yards while flying a freaky goblin glider with no training. 
 
"The Machine Gun and autopistol fire is simply to keep your people busy while he targets you with other weapons."
 
9mm weapons from 1000 yards? I personally wouldn't be scared of that. I'm serious, go to a shooting range and tell them you want to a fire a 9mm from 1000 yards and watch everyone laugh at you.
 
"I never said that Frank could hit Steve with a repulsor blast because his shield would protect him but Clint on the other hand would not be able to get out of the way quickly enough."
 
Yeah 'cause Clint Barton is that slow from 1000 yards. Good luck hitting the guy with a jet black suit at night. 
 
Clint's skills, for your humble review:

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"Frank has accuracy enough to almost put a bullet in Norman Osborne from at least a mile away, that is a very difficult shot to make."
 
A perfectly still target, he has a sniper rifle while stationary and with all the time in the world to control his breathing and he "almost" put a bullet in him? Seriously, any SHIELD agent could have made that shot with ease.
 
He doesn't have a sniper rifle here and he has to steady himself on a goblin glider he doesn't know how to fly. Doesn't sound promising for Frank.
 
"I also need to see a scan of Clint taking down a missile, keeping in mind that they travel far faster than bullets, so bullet dodging feats will not count."
 
You want proof that Hawkeye can hit a moving target? Seriously?
 
"Flashbangs and Sonic grenades do no real lasting damage so Nightcrawler should have no real problem.
 
I'm sure he's also fine with the part about firing a heat seeking missile at an Avenger and then kicking Daredevil off a cliff. Yeah really, Nightcrawler on meth is what you have on your team.
 
"They would be cool with Frank firing the missile because they know it won't kill anyone as someone will destroy it and your guys are Hand. I was hoping you would bring that up."
 
Here's something else I'll bring up about the Hand: they make Frank Castle completely useless.
 

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 Looks like they can magically block bullets. They seem perfectly capable of anything with just Daredevil around so I don't know what you mean by "Hand-lers"
 
"Show me a scan of Nightcrawler being shot or tagged by someone at range as he is teleporting.
 
He got tagged pretty easy by Scalphunter in Messiah Complex, I'll dig up a scan of that if you like.
 
"We have seen him teleport out of the way of Cyclops' lightspeed optic blasts..."
 
Call Cyclops' optic blasts 'lightspeed' at the peril of being put in the league of Storm fans. It's up to you but if you really want to claim Nightcrawler's reflexes are above lightspeed I'll get scans of him being hit by decidedly slower projectiles. Your call on that one.
 
"This time, he not only knows that they will know he is coming but that they will be attempting to kill him so he'll be extra careful to stay in the real world for less than a second"
 
Yeah, you're right. I forgot bloodlust means my characters will run around screaming "HEY WE'RE REAL F#$KING MAD AND WE'RE OUT FOR BLOOD SON" and waving their arms like air traffic controllers on amphetamines.
 
But seriously, how does he know they're bloodlusted? 
 
"Nightcrawler also has the skills to dodge arrows and grenades outside of his teleportation powers as he is as acrobatic as Cap and DD if not more so because of how his skeleton is formatted."
 
He totally does. Unfortunately exploding arrows combined the speed of the arrows he barely dodges with the explosive power of grenades that he can only dodge because they're moving at throw speed. Just an FYI, Cap can barely dodge explosive arrows when Taskmaster fires them one at a time.
 

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Clint Barton's a better marksman and he fires them in volleys of 3-5.
 

 "I was unaware of the Omega Red scan but I was under the impression that the robot wasn't adamantium. I'll have to go back and find it."
 
For reference, it had adapted to Wolverine's claws and they no longer cut through it. He used the Muramasa and chopped it in half with one cut. Boosh.
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#41 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

" If DD is distracted by taking down the missile then Nightcrawler can get in and drop the flash and sonic and disable your team allowing my team to BFR Daredevil."
 
" Show me a scan of Nightcrawler being shot or tagged by someone at range as he is teleporting. All the scans, I have seen of him getting tagged are melee scans. We have seen him teleport out of the way of Cyclops' lightspeed optic blasts before without knowing they were coming not slower than sound arrows and grenades."
 
Let me take both of these out with one scan:

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I'm pretty sure Cyclops fighting Wolverine, Colossus, Rogue and Storm all once qualifies as a distraction. It'd distract him much more than a missile would distract Captain America, Daredevil and Hawkeye and Cyclops still punks him mid-teleport. Cyclops has neither the senses of Daredevil nor that tactical mind of Captain America (though close to it), so I don't think Nightcrawler will be surprising anyone here. 
 
Like I said from the start, as soon as Nightcrawler teleports, regardless of where and when, he will die in one hit.
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#42 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, Wednesdays I have School and Work almost back to back and my laptop's ac adapter fizzled out. I am having to use my wife's computer. 
 
You are right on many points, Dane. My team won't behave in such a manner given their morality issues. That is why I wished that I had gotten to debate the last 2 rounds because inevitably this error in judgement would have been revealed earlier and by the time I had gotten to you I would have a had a lean mean fighting machine. So, I went back to the drawing board and came up a with a moral plan that will allow my team to do what it needs to do to win without compromising.  I apologize for insulting your intelligence with my previous posts.
 
To make things less confusing my Daredevil will be Deddevil while yours will be Danedevil. 

To begin:
Deddevil fills in everyone on the whos and wheres of the enemy. They know they are bloodlusted due to the increased heartbeat and physical signs of being bloodlusted after all if you're happy and you know it then your face will surely show it. Now because you have Cap this will tell them that they need to work together. This is not to say that DD and Frank have beef but that Frank can be professional enough to accept help from one DD if he gets to wipe the smug look off of the other DD with Deddevil's blessing. I am relying on Frank's dislike of DD to get him to work with my team. I think we can both agree that no one will hesitate to kill the Hand Ninjas. Nightcrawler and DD have a lot in common so they'll have no problem working together. 
 
Just to update the equipment roster:
Frank: Everything not given to DD and NC
DD: Whiplash's Whip, Billy Clubs
NC: Cap's Shield, 3 Flashbangs, 3 Sonic Grenades, 5 Pumpkin Bombs
 
Non-Lethal weapons like Flashbangs and Sonic Grenades are the hallmark of good crowd control. Frank knows this and will convey that to the team. He'll tell them that the first thing they need to do is blind your team to my team's movements which means getting rid of Danedevil. There is a nice boat dock on the west side of the island that will provide my team with an easy means of disposing of your team members without killing them. Nightcrawler will use his dexterous feet to grab hold of the shield and then teleport above your team. Even if you know where he is the shield will take anything your can throw at it meaning that my Nightcrawler will be free to throw his grenades without a problem and teleport out. Letting go of the shield and grabbing it with his tail he frees his legs to grab Danedevil. The Sonic and Flashbang double whammy will leave your team unable to strike while Nightcrawler absconds with Danedevil. By this time, Deddevil and Frank should have arrived at the docks care of the Glider and Doc Ock's tentacle. Frank will be readying up a Iron Man Gauntlet punch for Danedevil when he arrives. This punch will not kill but will likely incapacitate but since the punch will also send you into the BFRing water it doesn't even have to do that. Nightcrawler at this time will be dropping in again and dropping the next salvo of grenades only this time stealing away Clint Barton. He will drop Clint off with Deddevil who will use Whiplash's Whip's tazer-like effect to knock Clint out cold for maybe an hour or so, effectively incapacitating him. This takes away your eyes and your main ranged advantage. Nightcrawler will take a brief breather and then locate the Hand Ninjas with Deddevil's help and drop off a Pumpkin Bomb for each of them. Hand Ninjas are unholy abominations anyways so he'll have no real moral objections to this. This makes this a 3 on 1. At this point, Nightcrawler will throw his last 2 grenades while Deddevil rushes Captain America, the sole aim of which to wrestle the shield away from him. Cap will be dazed by the Flash Bang and Sonic Grenade so this should be doable with a little electrical shock therapy loosening his grip. Nightcrawler then teleports him to the docks where Frank will salute as he throws his entire weight at Cap to knock them both into the BFRing Water. No deaths, no lasting damage for either team, though Danedevil will need a dentist. Simply put, my mobility advantage allows me to easily trump your martial prowess. 
 
If you would like I can respond to all of your previous points but I believe this revised plan to be full-proof.

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#43 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio

Dedmanwalkin, +respect points.
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#44 Posted by Matezoide2 (16064 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "
you never give me respect points
*cries*
 
btw,this debate is preety good
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#45 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "
you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "

LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history).
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#46 Posted by Matezoide2 (16064 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "
you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "
LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "
well,you can check my debate with NeXus
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#47 Posted by DaddyCool (725 posts) - - Show Bio

Now things are getting interesting.

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#48 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "
you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "
LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "
well,you can check my debate with NeXus "

I  don't like to use tourny debates as examples.  Mainly because you enter the thread already taking a side, and attempting to make a case for that side...where-as a standard debate you're more willing (imo) to concede or convince others, perhaps even at a quicker rate.  Basically, in the tourny you have full command of your forces, in standard matches, you're merely an observer ;)
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#49 Posted by Matezoide2 (16064 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "
you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "
LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "
well,you can check my debate with NeXus "

I  don't like to use tourny debates as examples.  Mainly because you enter the thread already taking a side, and attempting to make a case for that side...where-as a standard debate you're more willing (imo) to concede or convince others, perhaps even at a quicker rate.  Basically, in the tourny you have full command of your forces, in standard matches, you're merely an observer ;) "
your entirely right,however this doesnt mean you can just ignore posts made during a tournament
do you think my ``fight`` with Nexus can go either way or am is he going to get every vote? :(
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#50 Posted by k4tzm4n (41721 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @Matezoide said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" Dedmanwalkin, +respect points. "
you never give me respect points *cries*  btw,this debate is preety good "
LOL.  Oh sheet! I need to give you a ranking (looks through your history). "
well,you can check my debate with NeXus "

I  don't like to use tourny debates as examples.  Mainly because you enter the thread already taking a side, and attempting to make a case for that side...where-as a standard debate you're more willing (imo) to concede or convince others, perhaps even at a quicker rate.  Basically, in the tourny you have full command of your forces, in standard matches, you're merely an observer ;) "
your entirely right,however this doesnt mean you can just ignore posts made during a tournament do you think my ``fight`` with Nexus can go either way or am is he going to get every vote? :( "

I certainly don't ignore them, I just like to rate based on other battles.  Also, I haven't read the debate. I'm trying to avoid reading because I don't want to vote in a tourny I've created =)  Even if someone does get all of the votes, that is far from meaning it wasn't a great debate.
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