Marvel Supermen vs DC JSA

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TheDevil98

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#1  Edited By TheDevil98
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RULES:

Morals off.

Random encounter.

Perfect teamwork.

Kent Nelson Dr Fate.

616 and Post Crisis->current versions.

Win by death, KO, incap.

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jimohkolawol10

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Marvel Superman doesn't really has what it's take to win this.

Allan\Dr fate solos.

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Eredin12

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#3  Edited By Eredin12

Both sides have weak links, but I would say that Hyperion and Sentry are better than the guys on team 2. It comes down to whether Fate can carry with his hax, if not, the Marvel team wins.

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hatsonmelo

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Marvel Superman stomp. Guys like Alan, Kara, Fate, etc aren't at the Superman class.

Shazam and Adam are good, but they aren't enough to carry.

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TheDevil98

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bump.

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SupremeGeneration

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JSA stomps lmao, this is not close.

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IloveParis

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Ancient_0f_Days

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Okay, JSA curbstomp, what is this???? Billy, Black Adam, Karen and Kara? On the same team? And is that Damage? Why do Alan Scott need to be on a team with his son? Why is Dr Fate here??? Do you hate the Marvel Supermen? Jesus.

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NovaPrime2

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#9  Edited By NovaPrime2

Why give the JSA 3 extra members when already any 5 of them could stomp the Marvel Supermen?

Mismatch of epic proportions.

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Eredin12

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#10  Edited By Eredin12

@supremegeneration:

JSA stomps lmao, this is not close.

Reason? I am not seeing how tbh. Hyperion and Sentry have better showings than guys on the JSA team, which has too many weak links honestly to really compare as hatsonmelo already pointed out.

@iloveparis: May I ask why do you think JSA team wins?

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TheDevil98

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The_Gaurdian

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Post crisis feats for JSA makes it unfair for the Marvel team. Shazam, Adam, Supergirl and Alan Scott are enough, Obsidian is iffy BC I'm not that familiar with his feats but adding Fate to the mix is a nail in the coffin

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Eredin12

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#14  Edited By Eredin12
@the_gaurdian said:

Post crisis feats for JSA makes it unfair for the Marvel team. Shazam, Adam, Supergirl and Alan Scott are enough, Obsidian is iffy BC I'm not that familiar with his feats but adding Fate to the mix is a nail in the coffin

Reason? Supergril and Alan are not really that strong, and while Shazam and Adam are good, Hyperion and Sentry have better showings and those 2 are not really enough to carry given their generally lacking teammates like Kara and so forth. Fate with hax could be a problem though, but that is only if he actually uses it effectively, which is not always the case.

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Strike3

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@thedevil98:

Dr Fate can easily teleport the Supermen to another dimension. Obsidian can become untouchable, envelope the team in darkness to another dimension. Change them out probably.

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TheDevil98

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@strike3 said:

@thedevil98:

Dr Fate can easily teleport the Supermen to another dimension. Obsidian can become untouchable, envelope the team in darkness to another dimension. Change them out probably.

Bfr is not allowed. I specifically mentioned win by death, KO, incap only.

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Strike3

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#17  Edited By Strike3
@thedevil98 said:
@strike3 said:

@thedevil98:

Dr Fate can easily teleport the Supermen to another dimension. Obsidian can become untouchable, envelope the team in darkness to another dimension. Change them out probably.

Bfr is not allowed. I specifically mentioned win by death, KO, incap only.

DC wins with the powerful back up. While the 4 Marvel Superman types go at the 4 DC Superman types, Fate, Damage, Obsidian, Sentinel drop the 5th Marvel Super, then back the rest in winning.

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PedroLopesMateus

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@eredin12: lol, surprised to see you comment in a mainstream comic Marvel vs DC thread.

I don't really care about either side but I used to like Green Lantern (yes, I know Alan isn't part of the corps). Alan Scott can do some crazy hax like aging an entire planet to dust. In addition to being > Jordan in raw power. So I wouldn't say he isn't that strong...

Still don't really care about this, lol.

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Eredin12

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#19  Edited By Eredin12

@pedrolopesmateus: Just to make some change tbh, I was mostly commenting on SW threads for long time, so I decided to mix it up bit more for time, but I still mostly just comment on other things.

But yea that is cool stuff, though I think issue is that as far as aging is concerned, most here are immortals in that sense, so that would not be very effective and in canon crossovers, guys like Iron Man and Terrax who are well below heavy hitters here held their own against Lanterns quite well.

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#20 geekryan  Online
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@eredin12: I see.

Off-topic, did you watch Tales of the Empire? I thought it was pretty decent for something by Filoni. On pair with the best TCW episodes.

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Eredin12

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@pedrolopesmateus: Not yet, but if that is case, then I am planning on doing it soon. Thanks for letting me know it is actually decent.

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rajjarsalt

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#24 rajjarsalt  Online

Al Ewing retconned Hyperion to no-sell the destruction of those two universes

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#25 Mage101  Online
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@mage101: Reason? Why do you think they stomp?

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Marvel

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Raven_godKing

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#28  Edited By Raven_godKing
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TheDevil98

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@eredin12 said:
@the_gaurdian said:

Post crisis feats for JSA makes it unfair for the Marvel team. Shazam, Adam, Supergirl and Alan Scott are enough, Obsidian is iffy BC I'm not that familiar with his feats but adding Fate to the mix is a nail in the coffin

Reason? Supergril and Alan are not really that strong,

Alan's best feat that comes to mind would be working alongside John Stewart to hold earth together for some time when it had no gravity, definitely not enough to solo or carry but enough to trouble guys like Blue Marvel and Gladiator. Supergirl has had a few inconclusive fights with Superman and some of them he's holding back but she's absolutely faster than a lot of the marvel supermen so she'll be a lot of trouble while the big guns of the DC team go on a tear.

and while Shazam and Adam are good, Hyperion and Sentry have better showings and those 2 are not really enough to carry given their generally lacking teammates like Kara and so forth.

Billy has direct scaling to Superman and other bigger heroes and Adam's feats in WW3 where he takes on multiple superhero teams at once is something that nobody the marvel team can replicate. These two are absolutely the strongest out of everyone and while Supergirl and Green Lantern aren't as strong they're definitely above the weakest members of team marvel which is all that matters.

Fate with hax could be a problem though, but that is only if he actually uses it effectively, which is not always the case.

OP specified perfect teamwork and morals off so it's safe to assume he's working to the best of his ability here which is enough to put the supermen away.

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TheDevil98

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Eredin12

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#32  Edited By Eredin12

@the_gaurdian:

Alan's best feat that comes to mind would be working alongside John Stewart to hold earth together for some time when it had no gravity, definitely not enough to solo or carry but enough to trouble guys like Blue Marvel and Gladiator. Supergirl has had a few inconclusive fights with Superman and some of them he's holding back but she's absolutely faster than a lot of the marvel supermen so she'll be a lot of trouble while the big guns of the DC team go on a tear.

As you can see in Post 4 already, it is quite consistently shown that Supergirl is not on Superman's level unless he is specifically holding back. Otherwise, she gets fodderized by guys on that level even with help. She lacks the stats to be any kind of trouble for guys like Hyperion or Sentry, and even weaker members of Team 1 have feats solidly better feats than her. As for speed, in basically every canon crossover, Marvel characters had no issues keeping up with DC characters, so that will not really be an issue in this fight, especially as the Marvel team has some decent feats themselves there like Hyperion moving faster than Thor's lightning and so forth.

Billy has direct scaling to Superman and other bigger heroes and Adam's feats in WW3 where he takes on multiple superhero teams at once is something that nobody the marvel team can replicate. These two are absolutely the strongest out of everyone and while Supergirl and Green Lantern aren't as strong they're definitely above the weakest members of team marvel which is all that matters.

Not really though. Billy is good, but even at his best, he does not have strength feats on as good as Hyperion catching a planet moving at 800,000 KMH, or Sentry having a near near-equal fight with World War Hulk and throwing enough power to shred planets while fighting Genis-Veil. As for Adam, while those showings are without doubt impressive, let us not forget the context of why he did so well there in the first place, which was that he was completely bloodlusted while many heroes were not:

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It is quite clearly said that there are heroes stronger, faster and more powerful than him there, but unlike them, Adam does not pull his punches, he was completely bloodlusted, which is what lead to him doing so well. Now those two are good, but as I said they simply cannot carry them here given the heavy hitters on team 1 and their lacking teammates. Supergril herself for example is below even Blue Marvel or Ikaris feats-wise, she will not be able to do anything meaningful here.

OP specified perfect teamwork and morals off so it's safe to assume he's working to the best of his ability here which is enough to put the supermen away.

If teleportation/BFR was allowed I would agree, but without it, I do not think he has hax he has used enough that would get job done here given his lacking stats in comparasion.

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The_Gaurdian

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#33  Edited By The_Gaurdian

@eredin12 said:

@the_gaurdian:

Alan's best feat that comes to mind would be working alongside John Stewart to hold earth together for some time when it had no gravity, definitely not enough to solo or carry but enough to trouble guys like Blue Marvel and Gladiator. Supergirl has had a few inconclusive fights with Superman and some of them he's holding back but she's absolutely faster than a lot of the marvel supermen so she'll be a lot of trouble while the big guns of the DC team go on a tear.

As you can see in Post 4 already, it is quite consistently shown that Supergirl is not on Superman's level unless he is specifically holding back. Otherwise, she gets fodderized by guys on that level even with help. She lacks the stats to be any kind of trouble for guys like Hyperion or Sentry, and even weaker members of Team 1 have feats solidly better feats than her.

Not true, we've seen her take on and beat versions of Ultraman, compete in strength with Lobo reeling and when she was brainwashed by Darkseid herself and attacked Superman it caused him to use kryptonite against her instead of attempting to physically subdue her. It's pretty clear cut that even if she's not fully at Superman's level she's closer to it than the Superman expy team from marvel which puts her above the weak links. DC weak links being>>>the marvel ones here is a big problem.

As for speed, in basically every canon crossover, Marvel characters had no issues keeping up with DC characters, so that will not really be an issue in this fight, especially as the Marvel team has some decent feats themselves there like Hyperion moving faster than Thor's lightning and so forth.

The problem with taking canon crossovers into account is that there's DC characters that have clear cut victory over Marvel guys and there's plenty of DC heroes here that scale to the ones with wins if we're going that route.

Billy has direct scaling to Superman and other bigger heroes and Adam's feats in WW3 where he takes on multiple superhero teams at once is something that nobody the marvel team can replicate. These two are absolutely the strongest out of everyone and while Supergirl and Green Lantern aren't as strong they're definitely above the weakest members of team marvel which is all that matters.

Not really though. Billy is good, but even at his best, he does not have strength feats on par with Hyperion catching a planet moving at 800,000 KMH,

This is where the direct scaling comes in handy again because although he ended up losing eventually we see Billy compete with Superman in arm wrestling for a decent time frame which indicates he's near him thus wouldn't struggle replicating this.

or Sentry having a near near-equal fight with World War Hulk and throwing enough power to shred planets while fighting Genis-Veil.

Captain Marvel had a near equal fight with Eclipso possess Superman as well though so he's higher than Sentry on the scaling chain again.

As for Adam, while those showings are without doubt impressive, let us not forget the context of why he did so well there in the first place, which was that he was completely bloodlusted while many heroes were not:

It is quite clearly said that there are heroes stronger, faster and more powerful than him there, but unlike them, Adam does not pull his punches, he was completely bloodlusted, which is what lead to him doing so well.

An important thing to note here is that not bloodlusted doesn't mean they were holding back however, Adam at this point had been going around the planet completely decimating every superhero team he came across so they were very much taking him seriously. Soon after taking on waves of heroes in that scan he has a lengthy exchange with Martian Manhunter, somebody that'd arguably solo the marvel supermen.

Now those two are good, but as I said they simply cannot carry them here given the heavy hitters on team 1 and their lacking teammates. Supergril herself for example is below even Blue Marvel or Ikaris feats-wise, she will not be able to do anything meaningful here.

She will though, none of the marvel supermen are doing anything comparable to the real guy and Kara has shown she can hurt him and also compete with people like Lobo in terms of physicals.

OP specified perfect teamwork and morals off so it's safe to assume he's working to the best of his ability here which is enough to put the supermen away.

If teleportation/BFR was allowed I would agree, but without it, I do not think he has hax he has used enough that would get job done here given his lacking stats in comparasion.

Post Crisis versions were specified so depending on how far back you go Fate still has wacky feats without resorting to hax with his magic.

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Eredin12

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#35  Edited By Eredin12

@the_gaurdian:

Not true, we've seen her take on and beat versions of Ultraman, compete in strength with Lobo reeling and when she was brainwashed by Darkseid herself and attacked Superman it caused him to use kryptonite against her instead of attempting to physically subdue her. It's pretty clear cut that even if she's not fully at Superman's level she's closer to it than the Superman expy team from marvel which puts her above the weak links. DC weak links being>>>the marvel ones here is a big problem.

It is true though. When you bring Lobo are you refering to Blue Beetle #18 instnace? Because there she just punched him without doing any damage there, that is not really competing with him. The Verion of Ultraman she fought does not have impressive feats on this level either irrc. Now let us take a look at how she actually compares to Superman:

Superman/Supergirl: Maelstrom #1, Maelstrom wrecks her:

In the very same comic, Superman easily beats Malestorm:

From post 4, Superman handles her just fine:

A Superman clone stomps Kara while Superman easily restrains same clone with one arm:

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Zod stomps her:

Both she and Power Girl who is as strong as her are beaten by Non(post 4 already posted it)

Supergirl cannot damage a Superman robot, while Clark trashes several:

Being as strong as Superman utterly no sell her:

These are just some instances. The fact is she is consistently shown as far below Clark as post 4 already established. And when you look at her stand-alone showings as well, she does not have feats as good as even weak links on Marvel team like Blue Marvel. So she would go down and marvel team member who took her would then help others.

The problem with taking canon crossovers into account is that there's DC characters that have clear cut victory over Marvel guys and there's plenty of DC heroes here that scale to the ones with wins if we're going that route.

The same goes the other way though, for example, Iron Man doing well against Hal or Terrax matching Kyle. I am not saying that crossovers are end be all, but my point with them is that at least as far as speed is concerned, Marvel characters always kept up speed-wise.

This is where the direct scaling comes in handy again because although he ended up losing eventually we see Billy compete with Superman in arm wrestling for a decent time frame which indicates he's near him thus wouldn't struggle replicating this.

The problem with this is that PC Superman himself has no feats on that level either. He did move planets, but more often than not, he had help doing it, and he never did something like stop a planet moving at 800,000 KMH with his sheer strength like Hyperion did. Of course, I am not talking about outliers like some screwattack kind of scaling, Hyperion has universal feats in that way as well, but when we look at consistent high ends, Hyperion has simply better strength feats, and he is especially better than Billy.

Captain Marvel had a near equal fight with Eclipso possess Superman as well though so he's higher than Sentry on the scaling chain again.

He is not though, World War Hulk is well above Clark, in fact, even weaker versions of Hulk have better feats than Clark in a number of areas. So regardless of do we go with such scaling or high end stand alone feats, Sentry has an edge over Billy.

An important thing to note here is that not bloodlusted doesn't mean they were holding back however, Adam at this point had been going around the planet completely decimating every superhero team he came across so they were very much taking him seriously. Soon after taking on waves of heroes in that scan he has a lengthy exchange with Martian Manhunter, somebody that'd arguably solo the marvel supermen.

I am not saying they were not taking him seriously, I am saying that the comic itself notes that reason he is doing so well is that he does not pull his punches unlike them, and that he has no fear of his death, while also pointing out that some heroes there stronger/faster/more powerful than him. So Adam is not some kind of team buster like Thanos or such who is just much stronger than teams of heroes, but rather mindset played a very important role of why he did so well. As for Manhunter, in character Manhunter whom he fought would not do anything such, no. With his tendency to brawl and his weakness he could lose to some individual members. Now if this was bloodlusted Manhunter/Fernus who actually uses his hax effectively, that would be something else, but that is not the version Adam fought.

She will though, none of the marvel supermen are doing anything comparable to the real guy and Kara has shown she can hurt him

She will not though, PC Superman does not have better strength feats than Hyperion or power Sentry showed against Green Scar and Photon and Kara is absolutely not on his level. Hurting him does not matter, Aquaman has done that too, hell normal Superboy has hurt Superboy Prime as well, Colossus has hurt Hulk, but that is not the the same as being comperable to guy. Which she has shown that she consistently is not.

Post Crisis versions were specified so depending on how far back you go Fate still has wacky feats without resorting to hax with his magic.

I mean even you are calling them " wacky" lol, but which ones are you referring to?

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jimohkolawol10

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#38  Edited By jimohkolawol10

Anyone claiming this fodders are par with superman are clearly deceiving themselves.The machine not as big as planet,but It is very big on the rogue planet,read scan,and this machine of size we know it,

HYPERION slowed down a Rogue planet which is not bigger than city.

From even hulk perspective its like 100 or 60 foot in the machine.

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Nevertheless not on this.

EVven if the OP has removed Supergirl ,She's has far better striking feats than this her cousin clone fodders.

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She's capable of destroying entire moon with ease, While the best striker here is Blue marvel who just so happens to crack a part of the moon,when angry and Sentry here is the biggest fodder ,He was literally oneshotted by BM and KH Koed him with ease.

Forgotten Gladiator either way he is inconsistent to consistency of Supergirl tiers.

Superman >>Supergirl>>Supermen's clones of Marvel.

Allan alone is a bigger threat than any of this fodders could dream of taking on.

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TheDevil98

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@rajjarsalt:

Well Hyperion was revealed to be an Eternal, so should be really hard to kill.

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#41  Edited By rajjarsalt  Online

@jimohkolawol10: ??? Rogue Planet only city size? Granted there were multiple artists in that comic, but like...

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#42  Edited By rajjarsalt  Online
@strike3 said:

@rajjarsalt:

Well Hyperion was revealed to be an Eternal, so should be really hard to kill.

Nice

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#43 destinyman75  Online

Either Dr fates Hax turns the tide or marvel wins