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#1 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting:


The Setting is at twilight.   The moon is rising and the sun is setting. Only the exterior of the island is on limit.   Entering buildings is not allowed.  The location is unpopulated.   If a character is knocked into the surrounding waters, they are considered eliminated via BFR.

 

Strafe's Team - Blue Base

Characters:
11- Iron Fist – unarmed 
5- Scorpion (Gargan) – energy blast attachment 
3- Echo - Billy clubs, Desert Eagle and throwing knives

Addons:  
3- I am the alpha and the omega - Begin the match with full knowledge of your foes abilities, traits, powers and potential weaknesses 
2- Can you hear me now? - Your team’s jumping, climbing, walking & running is silent. 
1- Why Can’t We Be Friends? – Makes your team respect one another and follow each others commands and orders.   In short, they’ll function as a unit and any bad blood / tempers won’t exist.   They will cooperate with one another.

Dane's Team - Red Base

Characters:
5- Captain America (Steve) - Shield.
5- Daredevil - Muramasa, Grenade Launcher, Billy Clubs.
5- Clint Barton - Bow, Arrows and 10 Exploding Arrows.

Addons:   
2- 5x Hand Ninjas
1- Telepathic Link
1- Gas/Pheromone Immunity
3- Bloodlust
3- Muramasa + Grenade Launcher
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#2 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I will be gone from this Sunday to Thursday. So we will have to be active and fast about this or I will have to step out. I'm ready to start when you are. Good Luck!
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#3 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower:
I can start asap. Good luck to you too :)
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#4 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
Ok, you can post first.
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#5 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower:
ok here's how I see this going down.
 

Points of Interest

Your team starts with full knowledge but no prep, as far as I know. 
My team, using DD's senses will be able to identify who they are facing (DD being very friendly with both IF and Echo, familiar with Mac Gargan) and by TP Link share this information from DD to the others.
Your team does not have a means of tracking or detecting my team, as far as I am aware.
My team is bloodlusted, yours is not.
Your team has silent footsteps but DD should still be able to hear their heartbeats with ease and relay their location to Cap and Clint
 

Argument

I think because my team has the advantage in knowing where your team is, they will be able to choose when and where the inevitable confrontation takes place. It means we should get a surprise attack by using an ambush or at the very least, the first shots will come from us. This is dangerous when you consider DD's accuracy combined with his Grenade Launcher and Clint Barton's Exploding Arrows. They would know when you're going to turn a corner and could fire a fraction of a second before you turn it, negating any reflexes your characters might have. It's entirely possible and even probable that you would lose a team member in this way right off the bat (though likely not Mac Gargan due to his durability)
 
Since as I say, I believe we would get to choose the rules of engagement and with Captain America relaying strategies telepathically to the other two, I imagine my team would have a well thought out plan for close-quarters engagement. Since you have Iron Fist it's very likely that this will occur. 
 
Scorpion: I think anyone on my team would take down Mac Gargan with ease. Despite his durability his severely lacks fighting skills. Captain America has taken down Rhino with one hit (have scans) and his shield would reflect Mac's energy blast. Clint Barton (bloodlusted keep in mind) could quite easily with his accuracy put an arrow or an exploding arrow straight through Scorpion's eye and kill him in one hit. Keep in mind Spiderman has webbed up Gargan's eyes to blind him many times and Clint is a much finer marksman. Daredevil is bloodlusted with a Muramasa and would absolutely slaughter Gargan.
 
Echo: I think Captain America's fighting skills are well above Echo's. He could block her pistol shots with ease and take her down. I think she may have agility too good to be shot by Clint but his fighting skills combined with his nunchucks could give her a very even fight imo. He did replace her as Ronin after all and is a better weapons master. Daredevil, again bloodlusted and with a Muramasa would make fairly quick work of her.
 
Iron Fist: Easily your best and most dangerous combatant. 2/3 of my team have hung with him normally and I think bloodlust could give them the edge. I wouldn't rank any of their fighting skills above his but they do have the means to beat him. Captain America has given him a very, very good fight and his shield could block the chi strikes. Cap could hold him off while the other 2 defeat their targets and then the 3 of them take Iron Fist down. Clint Barton has no means to defeat Iron Fist really unless he fired about 5 exploding arrows at once, which I guess he could do.  Clint would get served but. He would be a very poor choice and not a likely considering Cap's tactical prowess. Daredevil with the Muramasa on the other hand, is extremely dangerous. Danny is really fast but if he gets tagged once (and it's not difficult to imagine him being tagged once) it's all over.
 
Overall, I think I have you outmatched. In terms of tracking and detection and overall fighting skills. I think there are people on my team who could quickly down most of your team on their own and the opposite is simply not true.
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#6 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane: 
 
 Ok, with the intial knowledge of the opponents and there abilitys, plus the knowledge of them my characters already have, I would leave my team in there position and let you come to me to take away the advantage you have of knowing where they are. They won't be going past their starting points and would just create strategy as you are getting there, giving the prep time that I need. This will keep you from taking one of the members out intially like you have described. Iron Fist will also give them a heads up on the fact that they are bloodlusted and to kill at first chance, assuming they get that knowledge with my add-on.  
 
Scorpion: You severly underestimate Gargan here. None of you members could take a hit from Gargan to the head and survive with his superior strength by a good margin. Considering the fact that Captain America has faced him before and they know each other, I would let Gargan fight him. Steve is a great fighter, bloodlusted as well, but Gargan is faster, more agile, stronger, has a range attack and can easily take him down in a few shots. I haven't seen Steve take someone with Gargan's stats and win. Proof of this would be great. The fact taht Steve is bloodlusted might actually hinder him more than it helps him with Gargan who is superior in almost everything. I see Gargan trying to disarm the sheild, leaving Steve open to the few hits it would take to finish him. Captain is bloodlusted and therefore won't act as intelligently as he normally would in battle.
 
Echo: This is where Clint goes down and hard. I love Clint and he is one of my favorite characters, but he isn't on Echo's level of H2H ability. Also it would be hard for him to hit her with arrows in normal conditions, but at Twilight it will be even harder to do so and wouldn't happen IMO. She is superior from there in upclose combat against Clint. Her ability to read her opponents movements plus her superior H2H skills should make this a handy win for her. 
 
Iron Fist: This is where it gets the most interesting. Daredevil and Danny have a long history and this would be a good match. Daredvil is bloodlusted and Danny could definately use this to his advantage. Danny has superior stats and better H2H skills. The only problem I see is the Muramusa blade, but Danny has beat Black Panther when he had weapons as deadly. He is more agile and faster than DD making it hard for DD to hit him. Also, Danny has the healing ability if he gets a minor injury. Not to mention He can shoot Chi and take care of the Grenade launcher from the beginning. I see IF being able to hold him off until Echo is through with Clint. Then the two will double team Matt and take him down. 
 
If Cap does beat Gargan, these 2 can go from there and end Captain America. I could see this happen without to much problems after Captain has fought someone of Gargan's stats. I disagree with being outmatched. Honestly you have the weakest character here and that will cost you the match IMO. Clint can't hold up his fight long enough for DD and Captain America to get the up and up on their opponents.
 

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#7 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower:
On the bloodlust, it doesn't affect their combat abilities or intelligence, planning etc. Original thread says so.
 
The linchpin of your arguments is that the fight turns out exactly as you say it will with that exact 3 on 3. I disagree that someone with Captain America's tactical intelligence would allow for the exactly weakest match up possible for his team. He'll play to his strengths and not go racing in as you've said. Your team has no way of knowing that there is an ambush waiting for them. They have absolutely no way of detecting or tracking my team.
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#8 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
Wasn't posted with your team, my bad. 
 
I can argue other line-ups you choose as well.  While that may be true, IF and the team know his intelligence and tactical mind, and will have planned this before they get there. My team will have just as much of a say so as Cap does. Also, They are in a wide open space, so they will see the other team coming from any position between the 3 of them.
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#9 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm very sorry you said Captain America couldn't take someone with Scorpion's physical stats. 
 
He's taken down bigger.
 

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Badder.

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Stronger.

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Faster and more Agile.

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than Scorpion has ever been. 
 
And that was without bloodlust.
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#10 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
Rhino has been beaten by everyone and anyone. That means nothing here. 
 
Hulk is absolute PIS, that attack shouldn't even hurt him really with his durability.  Gargan is also faster and more agile.
 
Colossus got hit by the sheild. Gargan is more that agile/fast enough to dodge a strike like that. 
 
He hit Batroc when he wasn't looking, that won't help him against someone who has a range attack to knock it off course and Gargan won't be running. Captain throwing his sheild would be the worst thing he could do. 
 
And the last one looks Bloodlusted, but Beast isn't on the level Gargan is IMO. He maybe as Fast and agile(Maybe), but He isn't as strong IIRC. He aslo doesn't have full knowledge on his opponent and silenced movements and ranged attacks. That scan is almost irrelivant. Beast has never been the most impressive in battle anyway despite his intillect
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#11 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:

" @Dane: Rhino has been beaten by everyone and anyone. That means nothing here.  Hulk is absolute PIS, that attack shouldn't even hurt him really with his durability.  Gargan is also faster and more agile. Colossus got hit by the sheild. Gargan is more that agile/fast enough to dodge a strike like that.  He hit Batroc when he wasn't looking, that won't help him against someone who has a range attack to knock it off course and Gargan won't be running. Captain throwing his sheild would be the worst thing he could do.  And the last one looks Bloodlusted, but Beast isn't on the level Gargan is IMO. He maybe as Fast and agile(Maybe), but He isn't as strong IIRC. He aslo doesn't have full knowledge on his opponent and silenced movements and ranged attacks. That scan is almost irrelivant. Beast has never been the most impressive in battle anyway despite his intillect "

Rhino gets beat by everyone? sounds like Mac Gargan to me. The proof is Captain America can take down people with ultra-high durability, well above Gargan.
 
I believe that's a Grey Hulk but Gargan has a lot less feats to his name than Hulk.
 
Again, the point is Colossus is very strong and has better fighting skills than Gargan and he got taken down.
 
Batroc has agility and speed well above Gargan, the evidence is that Cap can tag very fast people. In this area, I'll post more scans since those do not meet your satisfaction.
 
Beast is a better fighter than Gargan and he's easily as fast and agile if not more so. Beast isn't impressive? neither is Gargan. Name one person with fighting skills on par with Captain America he could take down in his dizziest daydreams. 
 
Beside the point is the fact that Clint Barton and Daredevil would both kill him and I mean literally kill in one shot.
 
Further Evidence of Cap taking down fast, agile opponents. 


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Tags Spider-Man dozens of times and was only scratched by a surprise attack. Gargan cannot boast that kind of fighting skills nor speed and agile and we both know it. Scorpion is also a much bigger target.
 

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You say Gargan would kill him in one punch to the head? hogwash. Iron Man beats the sh#t out of him here. Scorpion is 15 tons max when you compare him to Spider-Man's 10 tons. Iron Man is at least 90 tons and he can take dozens of punches and still be standing and ready to fight.
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#12 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
Really? Gargan has beat Spiderman before on multiple occasions, something Rhino hasn't been able to do. 
 
The fact still remains, a punch from a peak human should do nothing to any hulk who take shots from people way above Caps strength level. 
 
Also that is a silver age scan. DD was punching Hulk and hurting him back in the Silver age. it really isn't relevant here. Also, Colossus doesn't have the agility, range, Speed or knowledge that gargan has. It is a completely diffrent fight. 
 
I doubt that. Scorpion is on par or above Spiderman, Batroc isn't on that level. He has been beaten by Clint with ease. 
 
Oh wait, there is Spiderman! Gargan has beaten him on several occasions. Spiderman is above Captain america in almost every way. 
 
Captain vs. Iron Spider is a pretty good example, but Peter explained how Scorpion would beat him. Disarm him and make him fight Gargan's way. 
 
Scoripion was 20-25 tons IIRC and Iron Man states he doesn't want to hit him in those scans. How is that the same when Gargan won't be holding back, as Tony clearly is there? Also Stark explains how he needs medical attention, Cap wasn't ready to fight. A another hit and he would have been down. 
  
Clint wouldn't hit him and all his attacks would be shot out of a twilight sky. That would be one of the worst fights you could choose. Daredevil would beat Gargan, but Captain and Clint would loose then and Then IF and Echo would take down DD like in my last strategy.

Why Gargan isn't easy to beat:

 
 

 
 


 
 
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#13 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio

um, Gargan clearly states that he has made a tactical location choice that specifically doesn't suit Spiderman in that and he only succeeds in throwing Spider-Man away when he could have just crushed his windpipe. Hence, he's a moron. Captain America isn't and Gargan doesn't have a tactical advantage at all here. Scorpion couldn't disarm Captain America. Scorpion can't use his energy blasts unless he wants them reflected back into his face. Do you have proof that puts him at 25 tons? I've always heard he was 15 tons. If he was holding back he wasn't doing a good job considering how many times he hit him, he is still many times stronger than Mac Gargan regardless.
 
Saying that Batroc being beat by Clint is a bad showing, you are lowballing Clint badly. He can hit superhumanly fast and agile characters with perfect accuracy every time. Characters like Scorpion.
 
I have no idea why you think Clint will be disadvantaged by using attacks that will be 'shot out of a twilight sky'. His Ronin costume blends into dark places and since your characters have absolutely no means to tracking or detecting, they have no warning of his first shot and he has the aim to put several arrows into each of them at once. 

Spider-Man is not above Captain America in fighting skills and tactics and I assure you those are the most important parts of this battle.
 
I would have to say all of this is only partially relevant. Since your team is staying in their base and waiting and my team, through DD's senses my team would know that. It stands to reason they would form a plan. Here is a plan that would take advantage of the situation:
  


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As you can see, there are a number of structures that provide excellent visibility of your base. Each character has 2 or 3 route options that would provide them optimal cover and a position to advantageously attack you. Your base is wide open with minimal to no cover. Whilst the rules say you may not enter a building, they say nothing about scaling rooftops. Were you to wait my team would have time to take up positions and they would know where each of your team members were at all times. Ronin wears a completely black uniform and since it's likely nightfall by the time the attacks start and because you have no way of detecting or tracking you wouldn't know my team was there until you started catching explosives arrows with your face. Captain America would travel with Clint and protect his position against subsequent gunfire/energy blasts.
 
If you wait it is unquestionable that Clint could bombard your team with exploding arrows and you would take casualties. Echo has been tagged by regular hand ninja before. In terms of stealth, Daredevil is the leader of the Hand and Cap has ran black ops since WW2, they're both extremely well versed in stealth and DD has snuck up on Ninja Lords before (have scans). He could very easily get into a position, as you can see by the shadows cast even in daylight, his first path is completely hidden from your base and the second that goes around to the base has the cover of the building and darkness at night. Something else to think about is that I also have 6 Hand Ninja working with the team that are loyal to Daredevil. I imagine 4 of them would stay with Daredevil for the ambush whilst 2 would travel with Clint Barton to protect and defend him. Keep in mind that Hand Ninja are capable of deflecting barrages of bullets with ease (have scans).  Once the volley has hit and your team is in a state of disarray and are working up counter-attacks, Daredevil and his ninja could come in from the side or behind.
 

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Then it's wheelchair time.
 
Ka-kow!
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#14 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:
I disagree, Gargan is not that smart, that is obvious, but he has all the knowledge that he needs against cap and will follow my team's orders without arguement. He doesn't need to be smart to carry out a plan that IF makes.The point was to show you that Gargan has done well against opponents in the past and can do the same here. I don't see a reason in the world why Captain will beat Gargan just becasue he is smarter. There is nothing around for him to use to out smart him. Gargan might just simply knock him into the water and BFR him from the match, something Gargan can easily do with his stats. 
 
Batroc isn't impressive was my point. 
 
Clint is impressive at times, but his Arrows won't help him here. Only exploding arrows will hurt Gargan and they will be shot before they get to him after the first one. IF and Echo can dodge them with their agility and can even ranged attacks back once Clint has given away his location. This is at night as well, making it harder for Clint to hit such agile targets. Ronin wouldn't have all the arrows he usually had as Hawkeye with him either, which is how he beat alot of his opponents.  
 
Against Iron Fist? Seems like you are down there as well. 

Once again, I disagree that Clint would take any of these guys out with 10 explosive arrows when all have ranged attacks and the agility to dodge. Remember Echo knows he has the suit and knows that he has stealth seeing as they have worked together in the past. The Ninja don't make a difference either IMO. Anyone on my team should be enough to take out these guys. 

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#15 Posted by k4tzm4n (41722 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wanted to say nice debate so far.
Moderator
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#16 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:
"

@Dane:
I disagree, Gargan is not that smart, that is obvious, but he has all the knowledge that he needs against cap and will follow my team's orders without arguement. He doesn't need to be smart to carry out a plan that IF makes.The point was to show you that Gargan has done well against opponents in the past and can do the same here. I don't see a reason in the world why Captain will beat Gargan just becasue he is smarter. There is nothing around for him to use to out smart him. Gargan might just simply knock him into the water and BFR him from the match, something Gargan can easily do with his stats. 
 
Batroc isn't impressive was my point. 
 
Clint is impressive at times, but his Arrows won't help him here. Only exploding arrows will hurt Gargan and they will be shot before they get to him after the first one. IF and Echo can dodge them with their agility and can even ranged attacks back once Clint has given away his location. This is at night as well, making it harder for Clint to hit such agile targets. Ronin wouldn't have all the arrows he usually had as Hawkeye with him either, which is how he beat alot of his opponents.  
 
Against Iron Fist? Seems like you are down there as well. 

Once again, I disagree that Clint would take any of these guys out with 10 explosive arrows when all have ranged attacks and the agility to dodge. Remember Echo knows he has the suit and knows that he has stealth seeing as they have worked together in the past. The Ninja don't make a difference either IMO. Anyone on my team should be enough to take out these guys. 

"
Actually, he can't BFR Captain America. His shield absorbs impacts and Captain America is coming from the top down to you so he's as far from the water as you can be. He isn't just smarter, he's several leagues above him in terms of fighting skill.
 
Captain America and Daredevil could individually give Iron Fist a very good fight. Together, bloodlusted and with a Murasama they can kill him. I don't know why you're harping on Clint. His fighting skills are as good as Echo's and better than Scorpions and he has a ranged attack you have no way to protect against or avoid. Dodging explosive arrows isn't enough and I'll prove why.
 
No part of your post addresses the strategy or the situation at hand. They can't dodge what they don't know is coming and they have no way of knowing whats coming due to lack of senses.
 

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The blast radius is quite considerable. A volley of these would hit every square inch of your base to the south. Even if your people dodged it's very likely that Echo and Danny would take damage or be knocked off their feet and disorientated by the blasts. Daredevil and 4 Hand Ninjas could finish them both off in seconds. Captain America has much, much better dodge feats than Gargan or Echo and he is knocked off his feet here by Taskmaster who merely copied Clint Barton's aim and used replicas of his bow and arrow and Clint has improved as a Weapons Master since then. I might add also that Taskmaster clearly doesn't have a surprise attack here either. Clint will have the element of surprise. The deck is stacked toward him blowing them up.
 
There is no one on my team that would lose to Mac Gargan.   

Daredevil would slaughter Scorpion and Echo in seconds and possibly Iron Fist in a tough battle.  

Captain America has taken down better than Echo in a single hit and Mac Gargan similarly, he's held his own against Iron Fist and has experience against him.

Clint Barton hasn't got quite the fighting skills of the other two but his hand to hand and weapon feats are easily as good as Echo's. He's also the finest Marksman in the world, he's bloodlusted and has explosive arrows. Even if you dodged them you have to understand they still explode. It's not like dodging bullets or regular arrows, you can't have them miss by inches. You would have to be at least a few feet away to avoid loss of limb or life here and he can fire in volleys of 3-5 arrows at once.
 
The Hand Ninja on their own wouldn't be a problem for your team, certainly. But they're under the telepathic tactical command of Captain America. If they hold the attention of any of your team members for even a second thats a second Clint Barton has to a put an arrow through your team member's brain and he can do it that quick. What about a bloodlusted Daredevil with a sword that can cut through anything? Think they can take their eyes off him for a second and expect to survive?
 
@k4tzm4n said:
" Just wanted to say nice debate so far. "

Cheers :D
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#17 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
I could see that working if Scorpion didn't have the tail and arms to hit him with. Cap only has a sheild to block with. Scorpion could out maneuver him IMO. He has done it to people with better speed, agility and senses. That fighting skill can only get you so far. spiderman hurt his hand in the scan above hitting Scorpion, it will take more than fighting skill to put down Gargan. 
 
Echo and Gargan wouldn't let IF be taken on by 2 opponents at the same time. That is just not going to happen. The reason why I harp on Clint, is because his fighting skills aren't equal to Echo's and They all have a ranged attack. IF can send his chi out like a wave, taking out all arrows coming at them by himself if he wanted to. Add a machine gun and and energy blaster, I doubt manny make it too the team. The fact is the arrows will mean squat here.  
 
They all have good senses and I'm not sure if Scorpion has enchanced senses or not. I'll check on it, but even at night I think they would be able to spot arrows raining from the sky. 
 
Clint and Cap could loose to Gargan. 
 
DD would beat both of the first 2 members, but I don't know if it would be a slaughter. He would beat them handily. IF is a whole different subject. I don't see DD beating him and cenrtinally not in the time it would take for Help to come to IF 
 
Cap has taken down who taht is better than Echo in one hit? I know he has done this too clint, but He isn't as good as Echo. I have argued the part with Gargan and I'm not going to be redundent. 
 
I disagree.Bullseye is tyhe best Marksman in the world, not Clint. Echo took a whole room of Hand Ninja and Elektra by herself and was holding her own for a good while. Clint couldn't even survive an encounter with Elektra, let alone a room full of hand ninja added in. Clint is a 4 in fighting skill in the latest entry I have seen him in. Echo is a 5 I think. She can read his movements and has a machine gun. Clint would loose that fight. 
 
The hand have been defeated by IF and Echo in previous encounters. They won't be a problem because they simply don't have the means to take out any of my team members. You act like the y will just forget about your team members, which they won't. They have full knowledge of your team and abilitys. They know them as well, so DD won't get the chance to suprise them. Same goes for Clint once the battle has started.
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#18 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n:
Thanks :)
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#19 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower:
 
You're ignoring my arguments about the strategy. Knowledge of who they're facing doesn't give them the means to detect any of my teammates nor the attacks they can make from an ambush.
 
"3- Echo - Billy clubs, Desert Eagle and throwing knives"  
 
Echo doesn't have a machine gun, she has a Desert Eagle. It's a semi-automatic pistol with a clip size of 7. 
 
"They all have good senses and I'm not sure if Scorpion has enchanced senses or not."
 
They all have human senses. They can detect as well as you can. My team has Daredevil telepathically feeding them informaton.
 
"Clint and Cap could lose to Gargan."
 
Mac Gargan has absolutely no feats that put him anywhere near Captain America or any that would save him from a one-shot death to Clint Barton.  Cap could decapitate Scorpion with his shield in about one second and Hawkeye could put an arrow through each one of his eyes and there is nothing Mac Gargan could do about it.
 

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"Cap has taken down who that is better than Echo in one hit?"
 
X-23. Without Bloodlust.

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#20 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
"I disagree. Bullseye is the best Marksman in the world, not Clint. Echo took a whole room of Hand Ninja and Elektra by herself and was holding her own for a good while. Clint couldn't even survive an encounter with Elektra, let alone a room full of hand ninja added in. Clint is a 4 in fighting skill in the latest entry I have seen him in. Echo is a 5 I think. She can read his movements and has a machine gun. Clint would loose that fight."
 
I think Daken is a 6-7 in Marvel's fighting skills scale. Clint takes him, Mac Gargan with his Venom suit and Bullseye, who you think is a better marksman, all at once.  
 

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Behold, a bloodlusted Clint Barton.
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#21 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:
No you are ignoring my arguement of everything that ambush does for them being useless. The arrows will be shot out of the sky if they are explosive and dodged if they are regular arrows.
 
Forgive me, I was in a hurry when writing the last one. Still the handgun and throwing knifes will suffice. 
 
Gargan and Echo are used to fighting people with enhanced senses. They know DD has the senses and will prepare for this. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to spot Clint on a rooftop. 

I have already argued why Clint would loose to Gargan as would Captain America potentially. There is no point in repeating myself. Clint one-shotting Gargan is ridiculous. Captain won't be doing that as he could the time they met. 
 
That is one showing and X-23 looked like she didn't know Cap was there and was scared. Looks like there is story behind that scan to me. 
 
Also I have read Avengers the List and have those scans. He did that once and hasn't shown H2H or anything like that since. That comic was all about trying to make Clint look good at the expense of others. All three of them could beat Clint one on one. I don't see how that applies here as he doesn't have the weapons he has in the scans, the element of suprise to the point when they weren't prepared for an attack. Also his opponents here are better and ready for him.

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#22 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower
 
 "No you are ignoring my arguement of everything that ambush does for them being useless. The arrows will be shot out of the sky if they are explosive and dodged if they are regular arrows."
 
I've never seen Echo shoot a projectile out of the air nor Mac Gargan. Arrows are about as silent as anything can be so I don't know how they are detecting them. It's possible they might catch a glimpse of them but it doesn't give them the ability to knock them all out of the air.
 
I've never seen Iron Fist project his chi outward in an energy blast like Ms. Marvel does or create a shield around allies in a large open area.  
 
"Gargan and Echo are used to fighting people with enhanced senses. They know DD has the senses and will prepare for this. There is no reason they shouldn't be able to spot Clint on a rooftop."
 
 Just saying they make preparations isn't enough. What preparations do they make to negate DD's senses? So far you've suggested their tactical prowess consists of standing right where they land on the island, not moving and waiting for an attack against people they can't see, smell or hear and that they will somehow magically know when an attack is coming.
 
Check out the scans I posted for Clint. Daken doesn't even know he's there until he hurls Mac Gargan screaming out of a window. Daken's senses are absolute leagues above the base human senses your team has. In what way do they see a stealth expert, dressed entirely in black in the darkness?
 
"I have already argued why Clint would loose to Gargan as would Captain America potentially. There is no point in repeating myself. Clint one-shotting Gargan is ridiculous. Captain won't be doing that as he could the time they met."
 
They have both hit faster and more agile targets. They both have the tools to kill him in one hit each and they're both bloodlusted. At range Gargan has nothing on Clint and in the time it takes him to close that range Clint could have put half a quiver into his face. Captain America has taken down people faster, stronger, more agile and with better fighting skills from any distance and thats with character morals. With bloodlust he could throw his shield straight through Gargan. If you want more accuracy feats I have dozens of scans for Captain America hitting things with his shield that outstrip Gargan.
 
"That is one showing and X-23 looked like she didn't know Cap was there and was scared. Looks like there is story behind that scan to me."
 
Doesn't take away from the fact that she was trying to evade him and he took her down in one hit. Notice how he hits her in a part of her leg that will take her down without injury? that's how good his accuracy is. I'm sure you won't argue that if he wanted to he could have thrown his shield straight through her neck and taken her down permanently.
 
"Also I have read Avengers the List and have those scans. He did that once and hasn't shown H2H or anything like that since. That comic was all about trying to make Clint look good at the expense of others. All three of them could beat Clint one on one. I don't see how that applies here as he doesn't have the weapons he has in the scans, the element of suprise to the point when they weren't prepared for an attack. Also his opponents here are better and ready for him."
 
It's only been a few months since, how many super villains can the guy take down in that time? I think Clint with bloodlust could take any of them individually. There is nothing to stop him putting arrows into any of them. Mac Gargan might have been asleep but Bullseye and Daken were armed and clearly on high alert. You're right though, he doesn't have the weapons he had there. In that instance he had an assault rifle and took Bullseye's bow and arrow. In this case he has exploding arrows instead of the assault rifle. So instead of having an upper-body riddled with bullets Bullseye wouldn't have an upper-body, period. I've explained with diagrams and superior powersets why Clint and all my team have the element of surprise. Have a look at all the security staff they have littering Avenger's Tower. They were more ready and better prepared for an attack than your team, they have technological scanners and trackers like Daken that you don't and he still infiltrated them without detection. They didn't know he was there until he had already taken one of their most powerful members down.
 
Something else comes to mind too. 

"Echo took a whole room of Hand Ninja and Elektra by herself and was holding her own for a good while."
 
That was a Skrull impersonating Elektra, not Elektra. Luke Cage had the speed to kick her in the ass on that occasion. Something I very highly doubt he could do to the real Elektra.
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#23 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane:
Echo has good enough accuracy to do this. I've seen people with no accuracy training do it. Gargan doesn't have to have accuracy. He can shoot a wide beam and take out all coming his way.

 


 
 


He shows his chi blast and senses of some sort. 
 
I said they would stay where they started, but this will move around some to get a idea of the place around them so they can use that to their advantage. It won't be as easy to use suprise elements now that I found the scan showing IF's danger sense. So now I'm definately sure you won't get the up and up on my characters, like you are depending on. 
 
They might not detect Clint, but I could see IF or Echo detecting Steve who hasn't shown what stealth he is supposed to have since he is going to be with Clint. 
 
I find it hard to believe Clint is going to tag someone who has to evade attacks from Spiderman on a regular basis. Also, How is the Arrows going to go through the suit/mask if they are bullet proof? Clint won't win this fight. Scorpion could just shoot him with energy blasts while he is on the way to finish the job.

 
We have seen how much Gargan ovepowers Steve when they met. Steve only one that match off of PIS. Why would be any different know that Steve is bloodlusted. Also, all the scans you have shown me, the characters were evading or running from Captain America, save Colossus. Scorpion will be running towards hima nd has his energy blasts to kock the sheild off course. 
 
Good X-23 scan. *thumbs up* 

 
There is no way Clint was planning to get past all of those characters by himself logically and succed. They weren't on high alert when Clint infiltrated the building, they were asleep. It is a big difference. Also Clint lost because the other team, Norman to be exact, was prepared and outsmarted him. I don't see that one instance proving he could do it every time when he has never shown Stealth or Superhuman speed as that book suggests. It was a flawed plot to try and make Clint look "Bad Ass" Daken should have detected him. There is no reason why he wouldn't have. 
 
Echo still took down a room full of Hand ninja before being put down. Thats more Than I have ever seen Clint do. 
 
Also I have been doing some research and I have found that IF mastered the Hypnotic Fist technique some time back. That could be used against the team to make this a 4 on 2 match. The smartest person to take would be Captain America, making a big problem for you team in the process. How effecient IF is at using this in battle is still being researched, so I'm going to have get back to you on how he does this in the fight.
 

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#24 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower: 
 
"He shows his chi blast and senses of some sort."
 
His Chi blast is hitting something directly in front of him, that won't allow him to protect the others and would only protect him if he knows its coming which he won't. That "danger sense" isn't very impressive. He doesn't even notice half a dozen Hydra guys until they're literally 1 foot behind him. I think anyone with ears could match that feat. 
 
"I said they would stay where they started, but this will move around some to get a idea of the place around them so they can use that to their advantage. It won't be as easy to use suprise elements now that I found the scan showing IF's danger sense. So now I'm definately sure you won't get the up and up on my characters, like you are depending on."
 
Again, what tactics are they employing? you can't say they're using something to their advantage without saying what it is. You have a map of that area, what are they using in that area for cover? 
 
Iron Fist's danger sense won't let him detect or track any of my characters until he is in extremely imminent danger and he still can't protect the other two. My team isn't dependant on surprise to win the battle but they can wipe your whole team out in one attack with no risk of injury to themselves with it.
 
"They might not detect Clint, but I could see IF or Echo detecting Steve who hasn't shown what stealth he is supposed to have since he is going to be with Clint. "
 
If you check out Captain America's paths that I drew on the map you can see the shadows outlined even in daytime to show that they are hidden from view. He doesn't need a black uniform to be hidden when he's standing behind a building. Your characters have nothing above human senses so they can't see in the dark any better than we can, they can't smell or hear him coming from that distance. Captain America still knows exactly where all of them are from Daredevil's telepathic link.
 
"I find it hard to believe Clint is going to tag someone who has to evade attacks from Spiderman on a regular basis. Also, How is the Arrows going to go through the suit/mask if they are bullet proof? Clint won't win this fight. Scorpion could just shoot him with energy blasts while he is on the way to finish the job." 
 
I've already shown Clint hitting people with equal or better agility and speed. Mac Gargan has been tagged by people with worse accuracy than Clint. I could dig up more if you really want. I haven't seen Mac Gargan's eyes deflect bullets, if he can I'd like to see a scan. Regardless, these arrows explode like grenades and pack a lot more power than pistol rounds. 
 
"We have seen how much Gargan ovepowers Steve when they met. Steve only one that match off of PIS. Why would be any different know that Steve is bloodlusted. Also, all the scans you have shown me, the characters were evading or running from Captain America, save Colossus. Scorpion will be running towards hima nd has his energy blasts to kock the sheild off course."
 
Just because Gargan has higher physical stats doesn't mean he wins. It isn't an arm wrestle.
 
 The only characters that were trying to evade in the scans Captain America were X-23 and Batroc. My evidence was the fact that he could hit someone faster and more agile than Gargan and he hit Batroc easily when he was trying to evade him. That proves that Gargan couldn't evade him. I posted X-23 cause you asked for a scan of him taking down someone as skilled as Echo. Rhino, Hulk, Colossus and Beast were all trying to take him down and all of them could legitimately beat Gargan. 
 
Keep in mind, if you want to argue Gargan beats Rhino you should be prepared to throw out your argument for Gargan vs Captain America. Rhino has vastly superior strength and durability and if you think physical stats are the deciding factor he would trounce Gargan. Fighting skills and intelligence are very important and Mac Gargan has absolutely zero of both. Captain America regularly beats characters with vastly superior stats because he is smarter and more skilled than they are. He is undeniably smarter and more skilled than Gargan.
 
If Mac Gargan shot his energy blast at Captain America he would have it shoot straight back at him. Cap's shield reflects energy of all kinds and strengths.If you don't believe me I have plenty of scans but he's done it in nearly every Avengers appearance ever.  The same goes for him throwing his shield at difficult targets and taking them down with ease. I think these are pretty well accepted abilities for Captain America but let me know if you disagree.

"Good X-23 scan. *thumbs up*"
 
Cheers, honestly Cap has taken down some really good fighters without breaking a sweet. He's kind of the man.
 
"There is no way Clint was planning to get past all of those characters by himself logically and succed. They weren't on high alert when Clint infiltrated the building, they were asleep. It is a big difference. Also Clint lost because the other team, Norman to be exact, was prepared and outsmarted him. I don't see that one instance proving he could do it every time when he has never shown Stealth or Superhuman speed as that book suggests. It was a flawed plot to try and make Clint look "Bad Ass" Daken should have detected him. There is no reason why he wouldn't have." 
 
I don't know about Superhuman Speed being inferred from those scans. Everything he did seems completely legitimate for his physical abilities and weapons master skills. In a straight fight against all 3? No he wouldn't win most of the time but he used stealth and intelligence to take out the biggest threat first while he still had the element of surprise. There is no reason why he couldn't beat any of those guys one on one unless Daken had time to affect him with phermones. They aren't on high alert as in waiting for him to come along but when Bullseye comes out he has his bow with an arrow fitted to the string. That's about as ready as you can be. Likewise Daken has his claws popped before we even see him on panel so he was clearly anticipating a fight.
 
"Echo still took down a room full of Hand ninja before being put down. Thats more Than I have ever seen Clint do."
 
 You must very selectively read Avengers books then. I'll cook up some scans. If you don't think Clint can take out generic henchmen it might explain why you're lowballing him so hard if you've never seen him in generic fights.
  
" Also I have been doing some research and I have found that IF mastered the Hypnotic Fist technique some time back. That could be used against the team to make this a 4 on 2 match. The smartest person to take would be Captain America, making a big problem for you team in the process. How effecient IF is at using this in battle is still being researched, so I'm going to have get back to you on how he does this in the fight."
 
That sounds very vague and keep in mind Daredevil knows Danny extremely well. If he had this ability DD would know about it and be expecting it. Also, in all of their fights Iron Fist has been unable to counter or adjust for DD's enhanced senses, accuracy and precision nerve strikes. Iron Fist might be an overall better martial artist but DD can play to strengths that Danny doesn't have. I'd like to see scans of Iron Fist hitting someone with very high fighting skills like Cap and DD with this ability. Keeping in mind Cap has been able to use his shield in the past to block all of IF's chi attacks.
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#25 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:

 
 
 
He shows it again, but on a level that is high enough to detect anyone on your team. 
 
I'll reply to the rest later, I have to jet.
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#26 Edited by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:

" @Dane:

No Caption Provided
 He shows it again, but on a level that is high enough to detect anyone on your team.  I'll reply to the rest later, I have to jet. "
He is meditating in a room with no other sounds and he clearly has to concentrate to produce that technique. 
 
"Like this one-- the Black-Black Poison Touch. Heightened powers, heightened skills.. and heightened awareness."
 
He would only have the heightened awareness when channeling that technique. Is he channeling it the whole time he is waiting for my team to attack? It's a good showing for his detecting abilities but keep in mind she is no more than 3 feet away from him. That doesn't match the range that my characters can attack from. Nor the range of Daredevil's senses which are something like 6 city blocks. In terms of arrows flying at him, he would still only have enough time to protect himself from them, he doesn't have the means to shield his teammates from a volley of exploding arrows. The time it would take for the arrows to fly that distance would be about one second. He wouldn't have time to warn them and would hardly have enough time to channel his chi to protect himself.
 
I'll also be going soon, it's quite late here.
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#27 Posted by brandonthejuggernaut (135 posts) - - Show Bio

my vote goes to dane
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#28 Posted by Spellca2 (594 posts) - - Show Bio
@brandonthejuggernaut said:
"my vote goes to dane "

Kid, vote when it is deemed finish. Follow along and be patient. I believe you were told that already. 
 
Sorry guys for interrupting.
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#29 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Stop voting before it has been called for. If at the end of the debate you still want to vote for Dane do so then.

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#30 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
I disagree, but I don't have time to make a reply before I leave again, so I will have to concede unless you are ready to go to voting.
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#31 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:
" @Dane: I disagree, but I don't have time to make a reply before I leave again, so I will have to concede unless you are ready to go to voting. "
You are welcome to continue our discussions and explore other avenues of our match-up for as long as you like. Don't feel pressured by some random guy walking into the thread by any means.
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#32 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4157 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, 2 debates haven't even gotten off the ground yet, mine included so you guys got time.

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#33 Posted by Strafe Prower (13013 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
I'll be leaving in a few minutes and won't be back till Thursday with no Internet access. I am either ready for voting or conceding. Depends on what you want to do. I won't be back on to respond, so either way great debate Dane. :)
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#34 Posted by Konnal (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Great topic, awesome debate. =)

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#35 Posted by dane (10861 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower said:
" @Dane: I'll be leaving in a few minutes and won't be back till Thursday with no Internet access. I am either ready for voting or conceding. Depends on what you want to do. I won't be back on to respond, so either way great debate Dane. :) "
Thanks man, you too. It's time to open up voting, I'll inform k4tz.
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#36 Posted by Spellca2 (594 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote would go Dane based on his team, his talking points and his overall stratagy.
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#37 Posted by brandonthejuggernaut (135 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow guys you really don't have to get so defensive.  Dane seemed to have the match in my eyes I didnt need to wait around to say it, there wasn't really much of a debate yet. I wanted to vote in case I didnt get a chance to.
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#38 Posted by Power NeXus (10283 posts) - - Show Bio

bump 
 
My vote goes to Dane. 
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#39 Posted by k4tzm4n (41722 posts) - - Show Bio

This needs more votes!
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#40 Posted by Donovan Montgomery (5752 posts) - - Show Bio

Dane ftw,  
Unfortuatly Strafe's team was just outclassed fom the beghining.  He put up a great battle, in my eyes, but just got overpopwered. 
Anyone would be hardpressed if they had to go against Dane's 3 + 6 Hand Ninjas.
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#41 Posted by k4tzm4n (41722 posts) - - Show Bio

Unfortunately, I doubt Dane will continue.  He recently dropped out of the War Thread.
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