Martian Manhunter vs Darth Sidious

@iragexcudder said:

You should. Because Palpatine could totally mess with MMH's head. Martian Manhunters telepathy is impressive, but his resistance to his very own power isn't all too great (compared to other superheroes [superman]). Also, just so you know, I feel like Sidious takes this 6 or maybe 7/10 times. It's by no means a stomp (despite me getting carried away in my first post and saying otherwise haha). I mean, J'onn can take on Superman. He's an impressive martian. Just not on Sidious' level.

@edude117: oh wow I messed up, I meant Spectre. Sorry lol

I've never seen J'onn telepathically controlled, he's a planetary telepath (so is Sidious) but TP isn't a factor here when both are extremely powerful in that attribute. J'onn can beat much more powerful than Supes..

@iragexcudder said:

You do have a point. Sidious would probably try and use his more direct offensive Force abilities such as Force Lightning, TK, etc. as opposed to using TP knowing that even if he could penetrate MMH's mind, he'd have moderate if not serious difficulty doing so. In a heated battle, he may just not have the time.

@edude117: I'd pay to see it l that's for sure

@iragexcudder: I'd pay to see a looooooooot of battles on this Vine.

@edude117: absolutely, could Sidious perform the Force Storm at any time?

@iragexcudder: Yes. Force Storm does not require a ritual nor is it a necessarily taxing Force ability. And Sidious' Force Storms are planet-wide. Let's just say they're big and dangerous. Lol Sidious also has near-absolute control over his Storms, however, they have been turned on him before. But that was via Force Light, I believe, and I don't think MMH knows that ability.

@edude117: I see. Does Sidious have any reaction time feats?

@iragexcudder: Reaction feats? I'm assuming you're talking about his lightsaber dueling speed. Yes, he does have feats and they're quite impressive indeed. His only dueling equals were Yoda, Luke, and some argue Mace Windu, however I disagree. And after a lengthy duel, I'm sure Yoda would be overpowered and lose. After all, he did lose in Ep. III. Therefore, the only Jedi, to my knowledge, that can best Sidious in a lightsaber duel is Luke. Speaking of Episode III, Palpatine murdered Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, his Jedi would-be assassins, almost instantly. Kit Fisto, who was said to be one of the Orders greatest lightsaber duelists, was struck down only seconds after. In fact, he was such a master of Force Speed that most opponents found themselves simply unable to react to him. He was able to defend himself against several hundred or more assailants at a time. Armies... His precognition was beyond excellent. And he was, like Darth Maul and many other dueling masters, a master at reading body language. He could easily anticipate attacks and viciously defend himself against them. All of that aided by his very impressive precog. skills. Simply put, Sidious fights at near relativistic speeds and arguably has nanosecond reaction time. And in terms of fighting prowess, he was a master at very many lightsaber dueling techniques and was infamous for randomly switching between forms in order to confuse his opponents. Here are some very useful links on Sidious if you're interested:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Palpatine

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/emperor-palpatinedarth-sidious-respect-thread/63101/

@edude117: I absolutely will, thank you

@iragexcudder: No problem, man.

It's not really possible to "prove" omnipotence, at least by feats. The only way we can tell are by statements.

The Bedlam Spirits haven't really done anything - they turned a stormtrooper into a diamond and then Leia's heart into a diamond, then reversed it and sent stormtroopers 8, 000 years into the past (essentially, BFRing them back in time).

You could probably draw parallels between them and the Elder Gods of Mortal Kombat, which I know you know a lot about. The difference is that the Bedlam Spirits are a lot less developed.

@shootingnova: thE difference would be the Elder Gods Mortal Kombat while they may not Have a crazy amount of feats like most god characters of their respected universe. They do have enough to prove their the.creators.of the.mku.and have unequalled power.

These Star Wars beings I'm sure they are omnipotent so the bio saYs however from a feat perspective they seem to have non like you said, alot less developed where as mk eg first few games were vaguely mentioned but as time went on they explained their power and that they literally created the mku, the realms etc eons before mortal kombat tourney came into play.

I take it these star wars beings are separate from the canon movie verse since the eu is its own universe? At least thats what lucas said long time ago. Now that he sold the rights who knows...

@vaeternus: Umm.. it's not really a "separate universe", but you can consider it that way. It's meant to be a supplement/expansion for the movies, but it quickly grew into what it is now.

Im merely going by what lucas said. He said he.had considered his universe, the film swu separate from the eu. All im saying.

No doubt the eu is an expansion of the films. Same with the games.

Manhunter would crush sidious..

@vaeternus: Not really, and Lucas has contradicted himself over and over again.

I think Lucas meant was that he did not make the comics or games but he allowed other writers to expand his movie characters, which makes it canon still..

@dark, thats the thing though, when they asked him ge said he considers it different canon/universe then his movie universe. Example look at sidious in the movies. Hes so weak compared to the comics...

Also i found out most if not all the games arent canon.

Shooting nova, yes really. I can post his interviee if youd like. How does he contradict himself?

Here is a scan of MM going Avatar State, with Goku testifying its power.

@foreverevil: ???

Lucas contradicts himself because he keeps going back on what he says.

And most of the games are canon, they are just all C-Canon. The ones that aren't canon include the lego versions and other offshoots of the movies.

Here are Lucas's own views on canon, and the EU:

It wasn't long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more than a single film could hold. As the saga of Luke Skywalker and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at least nine films to tell—three trilogies—and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story.

After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not the stories that I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imaginations of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga. This legacy began with Splinter of the Mind's Eye, published less than a year after the release of Star Wars. Written by Alan Dean Foster, a well-known and talented science-fiction author, Splinter was promoted as a "further adventure" of Luke Skywalker. It hit the bookstores just as I was preparing to write my own "further adventure" of Luke, in the form of a script entitled The Empire Strikes Back.

It seems only fitting, after all these years, that Splinter would be republished as I prepare once again to write another further adventure set a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

Source: Splinter of the Mind's Eye

I'm not sure I see contradictions per-se but I can see how that may confuse a newer SW fan. Thing that I agree with him with is the separate thing, yet "continue" the saga so long as it doesn't conflict with anything" part. See reason why I say the EU can't be mingled with the movie SWU is simple for things like not only Sidious but take even Vader. In the EU(much like fanmade vids) Vader has "lightning" which he never had in the mainstream canon movies or games.

BTW, with games, some of them aren't canon(some are like with ones with Starkiller for example) but even they kept true to the films canon with not making Vader have random force lightning.

@vaeternus: Vader almost never uses Lightning. The one time that he did was because he was using the Kaiburr Crystal which amplifies the Force abilities of Force-Users, allowing Vader to use Lightning without destroying himself. That's the only canon example that I know of.

@jameskm716: Like you said, another one of my friends told me the same thing that he can't because he'd literally destroy himself unless he has that crystal(since he's mostly metal lol) and well we saw what happened in the 6th film when Sidious hit him with little lightning.

@vaeternus: No what I'm saying is show me proof that he has used lightning outside of that time with the Kaiburr crystal. As far as I know there isn't.

You're saying he does in the EU. PROVE IT.

I'm saying IF he has it's dumb because he doesn't, that's my point. No need to prove it it's obvious.

You said this:

Your argument is that EU should be separate because it conflicts with the Films. Your evidence is that Vader has lightning. You never said "IF" he has it. You don't have evidence for your point, because writers don't let Vader use Force Lightning generally. The one example where he does use Force Lightning has clear reasoning for why he has it.

Vader has never used Force Lightning. Don't spread misinformation.

THIS.

@ the thread.

@dccomicsrule2011: I'm not spreading, if you read my post and the other guys you'd know only with one exception he's never used it.

Kids...

@jameskm716: Yes, thus why I said fanmade vid like the one posted on youtube. Someone made a gandalf vs. vader with Vader using lightning...

I find that kind of silly how he's able to use it with that crystal but whatever. lol I'll save that for another topic.

Going back to this topic since that's what it is, pretty certain MMH wins here.

The thing is he never used Force Lightning at all. The instance you're referring to is when he used Kinetite, which is nothing like Force llightning

@dccomicsrule2011: People always use "EU" for SW arguments but between lucas's comments and the fact that the movie versions are far weaker then then on screen versions.

But going back to this topic, pretty certain MMH wins here.

@zijuun said:

@captnmcdeadpool said:

How is this not a curb stomp in favor of J'onn?

THIS.

@ the thread.

Because it's not a stomp by any stretch of the imagination?

The way I see it is is a stalemate or Palpatine wins.

@vaeternus: In my opinion, MMH wins 5/10 or 4/10 times. No way he takes the majority. I mean, that is if he truly isn't weak against fire anymore. If he is, he loses 100% of the time.

@edude117: Given his feats, I'll go with 8 or 9/10 times MMH takes it.

@vaeternus: What about Palpatine's feats? His lightning is a little above planetary, his TP is beyond planetary, arguably galactic, his TK is planetary, his reflexes are as fast as MMH's, and he can move at a little under lightspeed. The only advantage MMH has on Sidious is his travel speed which is irrelevant 'cause this is a fight, not a race.

@edude117 I don't think Palpatine's feats are "poor" per-se I just feel that given what MMH has done over time and who's minds he's gotten into(ie Spectre, reality warpers, Planet busters etc) I'd run with MMH here.

Not just speed, but strength and is a superior Telepath to Sidious.

@zijuun: So.....Instead of actually making a case you're just going to spam the thread with irrelevant meme's and gifs? Good, now I can stop wasting my time here.

@vaeternus: I disagree. Sidious and MMH are on par at best in terms of telepathy. There is not a single entity/being that Sidious can't telepathically affect in the Star Wars universe.

@dccomicsrule2011: You're a fan of DC Comics? Then you should know that Martian Manhunter wins this fight easily.

Round 1, MMH completely wipes out Darth Sidious off the face of the galaxy in less that a milisecond. He has been know to travel speeds as fast as Superman which is around light speeds and he can go even faster since he can become intangible. So technically he has the mass of light and it's impossible for Darth Sidious to react light speeds in a random encounter unless you can prove otherwise with scans or feats.

Round 2 may not be as one-sided as round 1 as Vaeternus said on page 1, but MMH has more options here if the battle gets dirty. His telepathy is top notch and he can easily become intangible if needed be. In that case Darth Sidious has nothing to counter it. MMH is pretty much exceeds every department compared to Darth Sidious except resources and such.

Done.

@zijuun: I agree, it may not be an "utter stomp" as in two seconds or anything but I definitely think MMH will be the one to prevail here. I definitely don't feel that Palpatine's TP is anywhere near MMH's level.

@edude117: That's fine, I just feel very different. I honestly don't feel Sidious is anywhere near MMH's TP in power. That's just the thing, in SWU. There's nothing in any universe that MMH can't get into their mind...So far MMH has effected beings in both DCU and Stormwatch Universe characters.

Exactly, that's why I had to display my laughter on the internet.. It wasn't my fault. :P

Because it's not a stomp by any stretch of the imagination?

The way I see it is is a stalemate or Palpatine wins.

@zijuun:

MMH completely wipes out Darth Sidious off the face of the galaxy in less that a milisecond.

No he doesn't. And even if he does he has no way of banishing Palpatine's Essence to Chaos anyway, hence a stalemate.

He has been know to travel speeds as fast as Superman which is around light speeds

Travel is irrelevant in combat. Palpatine actually fights at near relativistic speed, MM doesn't.

and he can go even faster since he can become intangible. So technically he has the mass of light and it's impossible for Darth Sidious to react light speeds in a random encounter unless you can prove otherwise with scans or feats.

How would MM speed blitz when Palpatine is faster in combat and he precognition?

They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide.

By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be

Palpatine

?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine fights at speeds nearing relativistic.

Show me MM fighting at those speeds. Travel is irrelevant.

Palpatine could drain MM life force such as he did on Byss:

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes.

A Force Storm could damage MM:

And MM has no way to banish his Essence to Chaos:

Gallery

At best stalemate, at least Palpatine via Force Storm or Life force draining.

Also credit to Silver2467 for the scans.

may not be as one-sided as round 1 as Vaeternus said on page 1, but MMH has more options here if the battle gets dirty. His telepathy is top notch and he can easily become intangible if needed be. In that case Darth Sidious has nothing to counter it. MMH is pretty much exceeds every department compared to Darth Sidious except resources and such.

I think my comments above already deals with most of this.

MMH

Stalemate, or Palpatine.

MMH has insane TP feats so he totally wipes Palpatine's mind. Just reading this topic and read up on both feats, also judging by recent feats. MMH wiped Infinitus's mind(who would have destroyed the universe)

palps