Mard geer vs hades(fairy tail)

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DRdaddy

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#1  Edited By DRdaddy

Who winnns

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SinisterSpirit

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#2  Edited By SinisterSpirit

Hades

He has WAY more offensive power: He blew up 1/4 of Tenrou Island without even using the huge boost of his Devil's Eye. And I agree that Mard SHOWED better defense, but we never truly SAW the full extent of Hades' defense since he only opened his Devil's Eye for 2 minutes, in which he was mostly monologuing until his heart got destroyed. Mard's only major advantage is speed, but I doubt he could dodge DOZENS of Nemesis demons' attacks forever or block Amaterasus 100 boosted by the Devil's Eye for long.

The reasons people think Mard is so OP is because:

-Memento Mori, wich may obliterate the target, but it only affected a 15 per 15 feet zone while Mard was 30 feet away. In comparison, Fairy Law has about the same casting time but it almost wiped out an entire ARMY, and Grimoire Law is pretty much the same spell.

-Mard was "on par" with CSK, but we're not sure how powerful CSK really is. Yes he destroyed the Cube, but that's something Hades could've done as well with an Amaterasu 100. Hell, the explosion of an Amaterasu 100 is bigger than CSK himself and it drains the magic of everything it touches, so Hades could've hurt CSK MUCH more than Mard did.

-Mard was killed because Zeref burned his book, but he was still defeated before then. I know he wasn't knocked out or dismembered, but he was too injured to keep fighting, he's WAY too arrogant to stay on the ground unless he simply can't stand up. Gray could've finished him with one more Devil Slayer attack.

-The Tartaros guild is stronger than Grimoire Heart, but it doesn't necessarily means the same goes for their masters. Hades at full power could casually wipe out his entire guild if he wanted, while Mard Geer would already have difficulties against Silver.

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WiseforAges

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What +sinisterspirit said Mard Geer is only seen as strong thanks to the idea of FT's Powerscale working something like Narutos or DBZs powerscale.

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SinisterSpirit

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#4  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@wiseforages: I didn't even watch Naruto or DBZ lol!

Still, I don't deny that Mard Geer IS strong and he'd still give Hades a good fight. What pisses me off is that a lot of people are making too many assumptions. I mean saying things like Mard Geer can't be killed except by burning his book JUST because that's how he died is the equivalent of saying Esdeath from Akame Ga Kill is unkillable except by hits from Akame's sword.

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CyberBlades22

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I think this match is a really close fight that could go either way. Both have spells that can essentially one shot, Mard Geer has Memento Mori and Hades has Grimoire Law. It's hard to say which one is stronger, Grimoire Law like Fairy Law causes massive damage to the opponent usually leaving the opponent defeated, while Memento Mori under most circumstances erases the opponent from existence, however Hades did say that fairy law colliding with Grimoire Law would cause great destruction it's possible that the same effect would occur with Memento Mori and Grimoire Law. Both Mard Geer and Hades are extremely durable, but I think Mard Geer edges out since in base he easily tanked Lightning Flame Dragon Natu's attack and this Natsu should be above his tenrou version due to training and unlocking 2nd Origin which boost up his power a lot, while base Hades was getting damaged from tenrou arc lightning flame dragon Natsu, both have transformations that boost their durability but I think Mard Geer in his etherious form would still have better durability than Devil's Eye Hade's due to tanking attacks from Dragon Force Natsu who should be stronger in Tartaro's arc and also tanking some attacks from Gray who had ice devil slayer magic but it's possible Hade's with Devil's eye could be more durable but due to lack of feats with Devils Eye I think Mard Geer should be more durable. In speed and agility I think Mard Geer definitely edges out here since in base he was easily reacting to LFD Natsu, Sting, and Rogue then in etherious form he went on to blitz Natsu and Gray by dragging their heads through the ground seemingly while holding back, and he showed a lot of agility in base against Natsu, Sting, and Rogue in Etherious form he additionally gains flight further adding on to his versatility. In attack power once again I think this is really close, Hade's has blown up a quarter of Tenrou Island without using his Devil's Eye, while base Mard Geer was comparable to the CSK (summoned by Lucy) who had feats that some calced to be mountain level and Mard Geer without going Etherious was able to block one of his swings, I think the CSK attack should be above Hade's attack and Mard Geer should somewhat scale to this attack since he was in base during his fight with CSK. However I will take into account that Hade's never went all out since his heart was destroyed shortly after he opened his Devil's eye and his Nemisis demons should be problem seeing as attacks from demons or demon slayer magic are especially effective against Mard Geer. So I think this fight could honestly go either way when we take all the various factors into consideration.

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SinisterSpirit

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@cyberblades22: Indeed, so let's look at the details closely:

-It's true that Mard Geer is close to CSK's level, but that doesn't mean ALL their stats are close. Afterall CSK was mostly causing devastation with his Meteor Blade while Mard was mostly dodging his attacks, showing a great fight of offense VS speed. If you look at all the offensive spells Mard ever used (except Memento Mori), his offense may be impressive, but it's still not even close from blowing up 1/4 of Tenrou Island (and Hades wasn't even using his full power when he did).

-Here's another detail interesting to observe: Mard's Thorns may have pierced CSK, but they never pierced Natsu, Gray, Sting or Rogue, these guys always dodged or partially blocked them. This probably means Thorns aren't very accurate, CSK was a huge and slow target, while human mages are much smaller and faster. Even if Hades isn't as fast as Tartaros Natsu or Gray, his Nemesis demons should be enough to protect him from the Thorns he can't dodge. So all in all, Hades definitely has a massive advantage in offense.

-For defense, even though we never saw the full extent of Hades', I admit Mard's is probably better. Natsu may have been weaker in Tenrou than in Tartaros, but he admitted himself he used ALL his magic into his lighting fire roar, and we saw the difference it made since it could've destroyed 1/3 of Tenrou Island. So I can't even say for sure the ATTACK itself was really weaker than the one Mard witstood, even if Natsu grew stronger with time. And of course, Mard may have tanked it better, but he was already in his Etherious form while Hades hadn't activated his Devil's Eye. I still think Mard's durability is better, but not by very far.

-In terms of speed, Mard is definitely better, plus he can fly, but here's some clues that indicate Hades isn't bad either: Mard easily dodged attacks from 3 enemies at the time while holding a book, while Hades dodged SOME attacks from 5 enemies at the time. Also Mard may have made impressive jumps when he dodged attacks from CSK, but Hades was able to jump from his flying ship (wich was still above water) to Tenrou Island, wich is pretty much on the same level.

-As for their ultimate spells, it's debatable if Memento Mori and Grimoire Law clashing together would cause cataclysmic destruction, but even if it doesn't, both spells could 1-shot the other and they have about the same casting time. So I prefer ignoring them both since they would just bring a draw.

So my conclusion is that Mard has small to medium advantages in speed and defense, while Hades has one huge advantage in offense. The fight would be close and Mard would last for a while, but I think he'd eventually be overwhelmed by such destruction.

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CyberBlades22

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@sinisterspirit:

- Mard Geer did manage to block one of the CSK sword swings with his Thorn's curse while in base and throughout the fight he was using one hand and seemed to be holding back a little since he was smiling and acting arrogant in the fight. I think that should at least give him comparable offensive power to CSK and Hades. I think CSK would have much better destructive feats than Hades Amaterasu 100 that destroyed 1/4 of Tenrou island, some calcs I've seen put Hades attack anywhere from large town level to city level which to some degree I agree with due to the size scaling of Tenrou Island, while calcs for CSK put him at mountain level because one swing let him destroy the cube and Mard Geer to some degree with one hand and in base (seemingly not going all out since he was cocky throughout the fight) stalemated one of CSK swings and that was when CSK was bloodlusted after seeing Lucy hurt. I wouldn't say Mard Geer has the same level of destructive power as CSK but he should be comparable to some degree. I agree Hades with Devil's eye would have far greater offensive power than his feat that destroyed 1/4 of Tenrou island, and imo I think the two of them are very close in destructive capabilities and I could see Devils Eye Hades indeed having greater offensive power but not by a lot IMO.

- Thats true, but Mard Geer for the most part wasn't going all out in base and he did manage to corner Natsu, Sting, and Rogue and nearly killed (or at the very least seriously injure Natsu) before Gray saved them by freezing Mard Geer's attack.

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And when fighting 1v1 against Natsu he managed to restrain him with his thorns before Sting and Rogue saved him.

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This leads me to believe that Mard Geer toying with them is ultimately what allowed them to not get captured or pierced by his thorns. I agree Nemesis demons would help Hades a lot in this battle.

- I agree with this, we never saw the true extent of Devil Eye Hades durability but I think Mard Geer would still be above him. That's true but Mard Geer in Etherious form tanked attacks from Natural Dragon Force Natsu who's power should be above lightning flame dragon mode, Mard Geer really only sustained serious injuries from Gray's devil slayer magic that is highly effective in damaging demons so I'm not sure what the extent of Mard Geer's durability is towards attacks without demon slaying magic but at the very least he is capable of tanking dragon force Natsu's attacks. Mard Geer was in Etherious when tanking Natsu's dragon force attacks, he was in base when tanking Natsu's lightning flame dragon modes attacks.

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- Agreed. The opponents Mard Geer fought were stronger and faster (with the possible exception of Tenrou Laxus), Natsu had unlocked 2nd origin at this point same with Gray who later also got devil slayer magic, Sting and Rogue were both above base Natsu in the Tenrou arc in speed since base Natsu after returning from tenrou Island couldn't hit Max and was losing until he used lightning which Max barely dodged (tho Natsu did say it was weaker than when he used it on Hades) and Max was stated to be weaker than Sting at that point in time. I agree that Hades has really good agility himself that might be troublesome for Mard Geer to handle, but I think Mard Geer's flight would help him against this.

- Agreed both spells are arguably one shots to the other and really depends on who casts their spell first, which is my primary reason for me saying it could go either way since I believe if either Hades or Mard Geer are unable to damage the other they'll be forced to resort to their ultimate and from that point it depends on who lands their spell first, and it could honestly end in a stalemate here based on Hades statement about 2 spells like Fairy Law and Grimoire Law colliding and causing mass destruction.

IMO I think Mard Geer can avoid Hades' attacks especially with flight and superior speed. I also think that both of them to some degree should have comparable offensive power, I honestly believe the battle will reach a point where neither are able to effectively damage the other forcing them to use their ultimate spells which could go either way (depending on who casts their spell first) and their is a possibility that one of them might be able to survive the others spell since both spells are really featless and it could also end in a stalemate, which is why I think this battle could go either way.

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SinisterSpirit

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@cyberblades22:

-I still prefer not assuming Mard's offense is close to CSK's JUST because he wasn't going all out. Could it be better than what we saw? Sure, that's also what I think with Hades since he wasn't at full power either when he blew up 1/4 of Tenrou Island. But I repeat: Just because you're on par with someone doesn't mean your EVERY STATS are close, one could have much more offense while the other has much more speed and the fight would remain close. And the fact Mard was being arrogant doesn't mean much, he's ALWAYS extremely arrogant, even when there's DRAGONS nearby, yet we know he doesn't stand a chance against them. So my personal way of guessing their full offensive powers is taking the best they did (Hades' Amaterasu 100 and Mard Geer's explosion) and telling myself they could've been twice more devastating if the caster was at full power. I know it's not an accurate method, but it's the safest we can do without making too many assumptions. So by following this tactic, Hades' full power might destroy HALF of Tenrou Island, while Mard's is stronger than an Amaterasu 28 and more than enough hurt CSK, but still not close to a basic Amaterasu 100. And yes, MAYBE CSK's attacks can be more devastating than Hades', but from what we saw, a basic slash causes less damage than a basic Amaterasu 100 (by comparing the size of the Tartaros' building with the whole Cube's, Tenrou Island must be at least twice bigger than the Cube, and technically, CSK didn't destroy the whole Cube, he pierced his way through it wich made it fall), and the most powerful attack CSK used DID seem more destructive, but it formed a straight line easy to avoid, not a blast covering a wide zone.

-I agree with your reasoning with the Thorns, they're more accurate than I thought but Hades' Nemesis demons would indeed protect him well.

-Actually, the last DragonForce attack Natsu used on Mard Geer did hurt him quite well (though yeah, Mard quickly recovered), so I know it's not very accurate, but I'd estimate the best of his Etherious durability (without any defensive spell) must be about three times bigger than this attack Natsu used. This is very likely bigger than the lightning fire roar Hades witstood, even if Natsu was using all his magic into this roar and nearly destroyed 1/3 of Tenrou Island. I still think Etherious Mard's durability is better than Devil Eye Hades, but not by very far. Their defensive spells however are another story: Mard was capable of blocking a normal hit from CSK's blade (and seeing how he only did it once and not against CSK's most powerful attack, I'd say this must be the best he could block, so MAYBE his Etherious form could have blocked CSK's most powerful attack, though barely). Hades on the other hand could easily deflect a basic roar of Natsu or even reflect a spell of Makarov back to him. He could surely do better, especially with the Devil's Eye, but there's probably a considerable difference with Mard.

-Glad we agree with their agilities.

-Yeah, if we include Grimoire Law and Memento Mori, they'll definitely try to use them eventually and it'll surely kill them both, so I think we already have the logical answer to this thread: DRAW. That's why I prefer analyzing all the rest of their abilities, and so far, we can tell they both have their strengths and weaknesses: Mard's natural speed and durability are slightly better than Hades', but he can make a considerable difference by flying or using defensive spells, while Hades has much more offensive power.

Still, if we look at the details, flying won't be enough to dodge an Amaterasu 100, it covers a too big zone (unless Mard can fly as fast as Superman), as for hand-to-hand combat, Mard should have the advantage at first with his speed, but Hades is intelligent and has enough physical strength to throw a TITAN Makarov (and I don't know if the Devil's Eye further increases this strength), so he should eventually adapt to Mard's patterns and gain the upper hand. And I know it doesn't make a difference for a 1 VS 1 fight, but even though Grimoire Law has a less destructive effect, it has at least 100 times more range and zone-effect than Memento Mori since Fairy Law almost wiped out an entire ARMY, so I'd say for most situations other than a 1 VS 1 fight, Grimoire Law is more useful (in fact, if both the Grimoire Heart and Tartaros flying bases were close, I wonder if Hades could wipe out the entire Tartaros guild before Mard can react). Plus Hades' heart should immunize him against the life-drain side effect.

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CocaColaMan

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#9 CocaColaMan  Online

Mard Geer. He was whooping Post-Timeskip LFD Natsu and no selling his attacks while Hades was getting ragdolled and damaged by Pre-Timeskip LFD Natsu.

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CocaColaMan

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#10 CocaColaMan  Online

@sinisterspirit:

He has WAY more offensive power: He blew up 1/4 of Tenrou Island without even using the huge boost of his Devil's Eye.

I wouldn't say that. Mard was able to beat down Natsu, Sting, and Rogue at the same time in his human form. Hades may have more raw offense, but Mard doesn't fall far behind. But in a fight, what matters is how Hades' offense compares with Mard's defense, and considering Mard no sold Lightning Flame Dragon attacks and tanked full power strikes from Dragon Force Natsu, Hades isn't putting him down in any amount of reasonable time.

And I agree that Mard SHOWED better defense, but we never truly SAW the full extent of Hades' defense since he only opened his Devil's Eye for 2 minutes, in which he was mostly monologuing until his heart got destroyed

Hades' defense may not have been fully shown, but all that means is he's more durable than was shown. We can't assume how much better his defense was, just that it was better. So maybe Prech won't go down as quickly as his feats show, but he won't last an awful lot longer.

Mard's only major advantage is speed, but I doubt he could dodge DOZENS of Nemesis demons' attacks forever or block Amaterasus 100 boosted by the Devil's Eye for long.

Weren't Nemesis Demons the Stormtrooper aim things Hades had after he opened his eye? Mard doesn't even have to try to dodge them. Amaterasu 100 was powerful, but I'd argue Tartoros Base Natsu is more powerful than A100, much less the forms that Natsu used which Mard still dismantled with ease.

Memento Mori, wich may obliterate the target, but it only affected a 15 per 15 feet zone while Mard was 30 feet away. In comparison, Fairy Law has about the same casting time but it almost wiped out an entire ARMY, and Grimoire Law is pretty much the same spell.

Yeah, MM isn't really going to be helpful here.

Mard was "on par" with CSK, but we're not sure how powerful CSK really is. Yes he destroyed the Cube, but that's something Hades could've done as well with an Amaterasu 100. Hell, the explosion of an Amaterasu 100 is bigger than CSK himself and it drains the magic of everything it touches, so Hades could've hurt CSK MUCH more than Mard did.

CSK did this:

No Caption Provided

Which covered an area close to or bigger than the LFD Roar that Natsu used on Tenrou. The difference being that CSK wasn't drained of magic after using it. Mard wasn't even threatened by this and kept up the entire fight.

Mard was killed because Zeref burned his book, but he was still defeated before then. I know he wasn't knocked out or dismembered, but he was too injured to keep fighting, he's WAY too arrogant to stay on the ground unless he simply can't stand up. Gray could've finished him with one more Devil Slayer attack.

The level of punishment Mard took was far superior to anything Hades could have hoped for. Prech lost to Natsu's Lightning Flame Dragon Secret Art after he practically drained himself of magic while Mard tanked Natsu's Phoenix Sword, arguably his most powerful attack, when Natsu was far more powerful, this being after facing Lightning Flame, Sting and Rogue, and Gray, a Demon Slayer. It took an arrow that Mard wasn't expecting from Demon Slayer Ice to put him down. If not for Gray, Mard Geer would have honestly stomped Natsu by himself.

The Tartaros guild is stronger than Grimoire Heart, but it doesn't necessarily means the same goes for their masters. Hades at full power could casually wipe out his entire guild if he wanted, while Mard Geer would already have difficulties against Silver.

Eh. Bluenote is arguably the strongest non-guild leader in the Barlam Alliance. And I don't really think Mard would have much more trouble beating his guild since he can just one shot them all with thorns through the heart, but Meredy alone can make Hades hurting his team impossible without hurting himself.

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SinisterSpirit

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@cocacolaman:

-Actually yes, Mard is quite far behind Hades in terms of offense. I know Mard wasn't throwing everything against CSK, but neither was Hades against Makarov, so all we can do is take the best they did (piercing CSK VS blowing up 1/4 of Tenrou Island) and tell ourselves both these attacks could've been worse. And I seriously think the Amaterasu 100 is far worse since the blast was quite bigger than CSK himself (making it more devastating and hard to dodge than Mard's Thorns), plus this spell drains the magic from anyone it hits (I know Mard is using Curses, but you can tell the spell is more useful IN GENERAL).

-Hades' durability feats don't seem that far from Mard's. Mard may have witstood a powerful Dragonforce attack, but he was already in his Etherious form and it clearly hurt him, so my personal guess is that he can endure up to 3 times worse (without using any defensive spell). Hades on the other hand wasn't using the Devil's Eye and Natsu's roar only knocked out for a short moment. What's the most powerful attack Mard witstood in his BASE form WITHOUT dodging or using a defensive spell? I don't even remember. And frankly, I'm not sure which of these attacks was the most powerful, I mean sure, Natsu was stronger in Tartaros and his Dragonforce is better than Lightning Fire mode, no-doubt his Phoenix Sword is a lot better than a BASIC lightning fire roar, but Natsu stated he gathered ALL his magic energy into this one roar, and we saw the difference it made since he could've destroyed 1/3 of Tenrou Island.

-Hades stated his Nemesis demons only missed because his heart was already destroyed when they started attacking. Hell, if his heart was intact, maybe even their attack power could've been much stronger! And I wouldn't say Tartaros Natsu's most powerful attack is stronger than an Amaterasu 100, but yeah, they must be close. But Hades wasn't even using his Devil's Eye when he used it, and the Devil's Eye IMMENSELY increases Hades' power.

-Mard Geer acting arrogant doesn't mean a thing, he's ALWAYS like this, even when there's DRAGONS nearby (yet we know he'd get stomped by them). I agree that the most powerful attack CSK used was as much (if not more) powerful than the lightning fire roar Natsu used on Hades, however it only formed a straight line Mard could easily dodge due to his great agility. An Amaterasu 100's blast would cover a zone almost as big as the entire Tartaros Cube, so Mard CAN'T dodge it unless he can fly as fast as Superman. In fact, the main reason Mard fought CSK evenly was because he dodged all his attacks except one, wich was only a basic slash attack. So I'm pretty sure CSK's best attack would've been too much for him (or at least too much for his defensive spell).

-Needless to compare how Mard would fare against Grimoire Heart, my point was just to prove that the master/members scales of power aren't always the same. Just because Tartaros is arguably the most powerful dark guild doesn't mean its master is also stronger than any other.

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SinisterSpirit

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Here's the comparisons in my opinion.

Hades' offense VS Mard's defense: An Amaterasu 100 is likely close (if not a bit stronger) to the basic CSK slash Mard blocked with a spell, and we know Mard can't dodge it since it covers a too big zone. With the Devil's Eye, Amaterasu Formulas should be more than powerful enough to break through Mard's defensive spell, however Mard's power won't be drained since he's using Curses, not magic. As for Mard's natural durability (with his Etherious form), he can wistand multiple attacks of Phoenix Sword's level, wich a basic Amaterasu 100 is likely close to as well. I estimate that Amaterasu 100 x Devil Eye's boost - the part Mard would manage to block with his defensive spell ~ basic Amaterasu 100 damage taken, if not a bit less. So Hades can't 1-shot Mard, but he can keep hurting him until Mard is down for good.

Mard's offense VS Hades' defense: Hades was agile enough to dodge some attacks from 5 enemies at the time and jump from his flying ship (wich was still above water) to Tenrou Island where Makarov was, and Hades wasn't being serious in any of these fights, so his agility doesn't seem very far from Mard's (though I admit Mard's is still better). As for his defense spell, he could casually block a basic roar of Natsu or reflect one of Makarov's spells back to him, he could likely do more, especially with the Devil's Eye boost, but I admit this spell can't tank Thorns for long. As for Nemesis demons, having dozens of them should definitely help since they could destroy some Thorns in advance or even serve as shields for Hades, but it wouldn't be enough either to ensure a perfect protection. However if we add ALL these elements together: Mard's Thorns - Hades' dodging half of them with his agility - those Hades can block with his defense spell - those his Nemesis demons can protect him from = Nothing much left I'm afraid, at least nothing Hades can't tank all day long.

Mard is mostly a tank, he's not bad in offense but it's not his speciality. He may have dominated Natsu + Sting + Rogue, but they could all block or dodge his Thorns for a while, same for the unnamed "explosion", it was powerful, but Mard's foes could still fight after withstanding it. Mard never showed anything that could 1-shot them except Memento Mori OR the giant Thorns that pierced CSK. And these giant Thorns were surely less accurate than those Mard used against humans since they formed straight lines instead of being flexible (they may have hit CSK, but he's huge and slow compared to humans). So if mages like Natsu can dodge more accurate Thorns for a while, I'm pretty sure Hades can easily dodge the giant ones.

I KNOW Mard was being arrogant, but seeing how he's always like this even when dragons way more powerful than him are nearby, I can't even be sure when he's throwing everything and when he's not. Hades at least SHOWED he could've caused much more damage, he could've 1-shotted Team Natsu + Laxus with an Amaterasu 100, he could've knocked them out with the same physical strength he used to throw a TITAN Makarov, he could've cast Grimoire Law while Fairy Tail was fighting his Kins of Purgatory (despite its range limit, it should've at least hit 1/3 of Fairy Tail), etc. But seeing how Mard is arrogant and never really SHOWED how easily he could "crush these insects", he looks more like he's being pretentious. Afterall he's over 300 years old and he admitted himself he forgot how anger feels like, so maybe he's only acting like he could win easily because that's what he's used to.

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alextheboss

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Pretty sure Mard Geer is supposed to be stronger. One of his minions used the power of Hades and he was clearly inferior to Mard Geer. I don’t think he was quite on par with the real Hades, but I think it’s clear Mard Is stronger, especially due to the fact he fought the celestial spirit king.

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SinisterSpirit

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@alextheboss: The author probably wanted to make Mard stronger, but didn't know how to do it and still make him lose. Afterall he already had a lot of trouble making Hades lose: Everyone was already completely drained and near-defeated when Hades finally unleashed his full power, so the author made him lose because his heart got destroyed in time. And CLEARLY a genius like Hades is smart enough to create Fairy Heart but not smart enough to ask one of his Kin of Purgatory to guard his heart!

So instead, he made it LOOK like Mard Geer was stronger with details like those you said. But if you look more closely, here's what you see:

-Franmalth didn't use ANY of Hades' most powerful spell (Amaterasu 100, Grimoire Law, Devil's Eye, Nemesis, Katsu, etc), the best he did was an Amaterasu 28, he didn't have the Grimoire Heart to constantly get back up, and he wasn't even half as durable as Hades. He was VERY far from the real Hades' level, and yet it still took Tartaros Natsu + Lucy to beat him, wich means regardless of how powerful everyone became with time, Hades is still among the strongest characters.

-As for the Celestial Spirit King, Hades should've been able to dodge his attacks almost as easily as Mard Geer did, but an Amaterasu 100 would've hurt CSK MUCH more than Mard's Thorns since the blast it causes is bigger than CSK himself and it drains the magic from everything it touches.

The author is good at making it LOOK like someone's stronger, but it's not always the case. That's why it's important to look at the details.

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CocaColaMan

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#15 CocaColaMan  Online

@sinisterspirit:

Actually yes, Mard is quite far behind Hades in terms of offense. I know Mard wasn't throwing everything against CSK, but neither was Hades against Makarov, so all we can do is take the best they did (piercing CSK VS blowing up 1/4 of Tenrou Island) and tell ourselves both these attacks could've been worse. And I seriously think the Amaterasu 100 is far worse since the blast was quite bigger than CSK himself (making it more devastating and hard to dodge than Mard's Thorns), plus this spell drains the magic from anyone it hits (I know Mard is using Curses, but you can tell the spell is more useful IN GENERAL).

He really isn't. If Mard can stomp three Dragon Slayers simultaneously and effortlessly, he shouldn't be far behind Hades at all.

Hades' durability feats don't seem that far from Mard's. Mard may have witstood a powerful Dragonforce attack, but he was already in his Etherious form and it clearly hurt him, so my personal guess is that he can endure up to 3 times worse (without using any defensive spell). Hades on the other hand wasn't using the Devil's Eye and Natsu's roar only knocked out for a short moment.

That's the point. A weaker Natsu in a weaker form did worse to Hades than a stronger Natsu in a stronger form to Mard Geer.

What's the most powerful attack Mard witstood in his BASE form WITHOUT dodging or using a defensive spell? I don't even remember.

Probably a LFD attack that he no sold, scan in post #7.

And frankly, I'm not sure which of these attacks was the most powerful, I mean sure, Natsu was stronger in Tartaros and his Dragonforce is better than Lightning Fire mode, no-doubt his Phoenix Sword is a lot better than a BASIC lightning fire roar, but Natsu stated he gathered ALL his magic energy into this one roar, and we saw the difference it made since he could've destroyed 1/3 of Tenrou Island.

Natsu's Phoenix Sword also drained him of all his magic to the point he went limp.

Hades stated his Nemesis demons only missed because his heart was already destroyed when they started attacking. Hell, if his heart was intact, maybe even their attack power could've been much stronger!

I don't remember any of this.

And I wouldn't say Tartaros Natsu's most powerful attack is stronger than an Amaterasu 100, but yeah, they must be close. But Hades wasn't even using his Devil's Eye when he used it, and the Devil's Eye IMMENSELY increases Hades' power.

GMG Natsu had already overpowered Dragon Force Sting and Rogue's full power all put into one attack, which should be more powerful than an Amaterasu 100 by a good margin. Tartaros Natsu is stronger.

Mard Geer acting arrogant doesn't mean a thing, he's ALWAYS like this, even when there's DRAGONS nearby (yet we know he'd get stomped by them).

The Dragons weren't attacking Mard Geer, he had no reason to be scared.

I agree that the most powerful attack CSK used was as much (if not more) powerful than the lightning fire roar Natsu used on Hades, however it only formed a straight line Mard could easily dodge due to his great agility. An Amaterasu 100's blast would cover a zone almost as big as the entire Tartaros Cube, so Mard CAN'T dodge it unless he can fly as fast as Superman. In fact, the main reason Mard fought CSK evenly was because he dodged all his attacks except one, wich was only a basic slash attack. So I'm pretty sure CSK's best attack would've been too much for him (or at least too much for his defensive spell).

Escaping an explosion isn't all that hard. Mirajane did it when the explosion was attached to her back on Tenrou. And Mard being on par with CSK isn't really all that important to me, anyway. The weakest form of Mard effortlessly treating Natsu and the Twin Dragons as fodder is better than Hades doing the same to a vastly weaker Natsu, Gray, and Erza.

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#16  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@cocacolaman:

Mard Geer mostly dealt with Natsu, Sting and Rogue because they couldn't keep dodging or tanking his Thorns forever, while he could easily handle their attacks. Even in his Etherious form, he never really showed anything that could 1-shot them, except for Memento Mori and the giant Thorns that pierced CSK (wich are probably easier to for humans to dodge since CSK is huge and slow), even after the unnamed "explosion" he used, his foes could still fight. Hades on the other hand could casually 1-shot them all with an Amaterasu 100 without needing his Devil's Eye (in fact the only reason he didn't use it against Team Natsu and Laxus is because he didn't want to blow up his entire ship and destroy his own heart, but it WOULD'VE 1-shotted them all easy). Besides, Natsu, Sting and Rogue aren't the most durable characters, their specialty is offense, Makarov at least DID have a powerful defensive spell in comparison and yet he almost got 1-shotted by an Amaterasu 100, so even if Mard COULD 1-shot them all, it still wouldn't be as impressive as with Makarov.

Alright, I agree than the attack Natsu used on Mard was stronger than the one Hades withstood, but it doesn't change the fact Mard was at his full power while Hades wasn't. YES I agree that Mard's defense is surely better, but seeing how agile Hades can be (he dodged some attacks from 5 enemies at the time and could jump from his flying ship (wich was still above water) to Tenrou Island where Makarov was) + the fact he DOES have a defensive spell (though less effective than Mard's, I agree), he shouldn't be that far.

In my opinion, Natsu didn't beat Sting and Rogue because he grew a lot stronger, but because THEY were a lot weaker than they seemed. Sure, the size of the blast they caused was impressive, but it wasn't nearly close to an Amaterasu 100's (the arena isn't much compared to 1/4 of Tenrou Island) and Natsu wasn't that hurt by it. Just look at Wendy, I know Sting and Rogue aren't THAT weak, but just because you're a dragonslayer doesn't always mean you're powerful. Dragonforce may triple the power, but 3 x 0 still makes 0 (I know it's an exaggerated exemple, but you get my point).

Actually I don't remember if it's in the manga, but I can confirm that in the anime, Hades stated his Nemesis demons wouldn't have missed their targets if his heart hadn't been destroyed.

I know Mard always looks like he's not putting any efforts, so my question is: HOW IS IT when he does? Hades at least left us clues of his full power, but all Mard Geer does is SAYING that humans are "insects he could easily crush" and taking his time to defeat them with his Thorns. By combining this with the fact he admitted himself he forgot how anger even feels like, I think he's just being pretentious and CAN'T really do anything better in terms of offense.

And the explosion Mirajane escaped was about twice her size, indeed easy to dodge if you're fast enough. But an Amaterasu 100 covered 1/4 of Tenrou Island and it could've been worse if Hades was using his Devil's Eye. Unless Mard can somehow fly as fast as Superman and move out of such a zone in less than a second, he CAN'T dodge it, he'll be forced to block it.

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CocaColaMan

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#18 CocaColaMan  Online

@sinisterspirit:

Mard Geer mostly dealt with Natsu, Sting and Rogue because they couldn't keep dodging or tanking his Thorns forever, while he could easily handle their attacks. Even in his Etherious form, he never really showed anything that could 1-shot them, except for Memento Mori and the giant Thorns that pierced CSK (wich are probably easier to for humans to dodge since CSK is huge and slow), even after the unnamed "explosion" he used, his foes could still fight.

Mard was physically embarrassing them the whole time. Also, Hades wouldn't have one shot them either, so I don't see the point.

Hades on the other hand could casually 1-shot them all with an Amaterasu 100 without needing his Devil's Eye (in fact the only reason he didn't use it against Team Natsu and Laxus is because he didn't want to blow up his entire ship and destroy his own heart, but it WOULD'VE 1-shotted them all easy). Besides, Natsu, Sting and Rogue aren't the most durable characters, their specialty is offense, Makarov at least DID have a powerful defensive spell in comparison and yet he almost got 1-shotted by an Amaterasu 100, so even if Mard COULD 1-shot them all, it still wouldn't be as impressive as with Makarov.

There's no proof Hades could one shot these guys. Hades had already been fighting with Makarov, it wasn't a one shot at all.

Alright, I agree than the attack Natsu used on Mard was stronger than the one Hades withstood, but it doesn't change the fact Mard was at his full power while Hades wasn't. YES I agree that Mard's defense is surely better, but seeing how agile Hades can be (he dodged some attacks from 5 enemies at the time and could jump from his flying ship (wich was still above water) to Tenrou Island where Makarov was) + the fact he DOES have a defensive spell (though less effective than Mard's, I agree), he shouldn't be that far.

I think you're either underestimating the power difference between Tartaros and Tenrou or you're overestimating the amount of power Hades wasn't using. Not only is Tenrou Natsu a whole power up behind Tart Natsu, but Dragon Force is leagues ahead of LFD in terms of power amp.

In my opinion, Natsu didn't beat Sting and Rogue because he grew a lot stronger, but because THEY were a lot weaker than they seemed. Sure, the size of the blast they caused was impressive, but it wasn't nearly close to an Amaterasu 100's (the arena isn't much compared to 1/4 of Tenrou Island) and Natsu wasn't that hurt by it. Just look at Wendy, I know Sting and Rogue aren't THAT weak, but just because you're a dragonslayer doesn't always mean you're powerful. Dragonforce may triple the power, but 3 x 0 still makes 0 (I know it's an exaggerated exemple, but you get my point).

Sting and Rogue were plenty strong. In the fight, their Drives beat Natsu and Gajeel, Natsu and Gajeel adapted to that, then Sting in Dragon Force solo stomped the two together casually.

Amaterasu 100's size isn't all that. Here's Edolas Natsu with help from Gajeel and (fodder) Wendy

No Caption Provided

That's at least comparable, and a weakened Natsu put in the vast majority of that explosion.

I know Mard always looks like he's not putting any efforts, so my question is: HOW IS IT when he does? Hades at least left us clues of his full power, but all Mard Geer does is SAYING that humans are "insects he could easily crush" and taking his time to defeat them with his Thorns. By combining this with the fact he admitted himself he forgot how anger even feels like, I think he's just being pretentious and CAN'T really do anything better in terms of offense.

No matter how pretentious you are, if you struggle, it shows. Mard was smirking the whole time and was holding a book in one hand. He no sold the strongest attack they used. I think his statements are totally fair.

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@cocacolaman:

Amaterasu 100 was still THE spell that mostly dealt damage to Makarov. Before then, all Makarov withstood was Hades throwing him around with his chains, and after the Amaterasu 100 was cast, Makarov could barely fight anymore. And no-one in Team Natsu or Laxus has a true defensive spell (Wendy may be a support, but she can't create shields), except Erza with her Adamantine armor, wich I doubt is as resistant as Makarov's 3 Pillar Gods. And if we forget defensive SPELLS and only focus on natural durability, even Laxus was down after taking an Amaterasu 28 or lower (though I admit it took time for his magic to be drained), so I doubt anyone would've been able to take a 100 one. So yeah, I'm quite positive Hades could've 1-shotted them all if his heart wasn't nearby. Even if mages like Natsu got stronger in Tartaros, I doubt their durability became better than Tenrou Erza's Adamantine Armor, wich is likely not as good as the 3 Pillar Gods (or it's equal to it at best), wich was destroyed by an Amaterasu 100.

Dragonforce may be about twice stronger than Lightning Fire mode at best, but I wouldn't say it's LEAGUES superior.

It LOOKED like Sting stomped Natsu and Gajeel, but then it was revealed he didn't hurt them much, and then Natsu overpowered both Sting and Rogue's Dragonforces without using his own. Even if Natsu grew stronger from Tenrou to GMG and he's the main character, I doubt he could grow THAT strong so quickly, Sting and Rogue must've been weaker than they looked.

I doubt Mard would show when he's struggling. I don't recall exactly how he reacted when Achnologia showed up, but I'm pretty sure the idea that he came to destroy END's book crossed his mind (even if he didn't say it, he must've thought it, he's smart) yet Mard still remained calm despite not knowing Igneel would show up as well. THAT'S why I can't tell when he's toying with his opponents and when he's serious: Even when he's facing imminent defeat, he still acts like everyone are insects compared to him. Anyway Mard Geer DID seem serious after he took his Etherious form and admitted how angry he was, yet he still didn't throw anything THAT impressive except for Memento Mori. Mard seems to be a TANK, mostly sure of himself because he can dodge or block almost anything while slowly beating his opponents as they desperately try to hurt him.

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JDogg

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Mard Geer wins. Hades is more comparable to the top 3 of Tartarus than the Master. Mard Geer tanked DF Natsu who would wreck Tenrou LFD Natsu and Hades at the same time.

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@jdogg: Please explain. As you can see, we're bringing a lot of details to truly determine who would win:

Even if Mard TANKED attacks from DF Natsu, it doesn't mean his OFFENSE is as good as his. I know Mard was mostly toying with his opponents, but he didn't show a very devastating offense (except for Memento Mori, wich has the same casting time as Grimoire Law, but Grimoire Law has so much range and zone-effect it could wipe out the entire Tartaros guild). Hades on the other hand casually blew up 1/4 of Tenrou Island without even using the Devil Eye's huge boost, so this fight seems quite close since we have a huge offense VS a huge defense.

Starting to see what I mean? Just because a character has ONE feat better than the other doesn't mean he's better in EVERYTHING, or that he's sure of winning.

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@sinisterspirit: Mard Geer stats on his game card put his defense and offense equal to each other so he is stronger than DF Natsu.

Memento Mori has no cast time and immobilize the target as the spell is casted.

Hades got destroyed by Tenrou LFD Natsu who is far weaker than Tartarus LFD Natsu and Mard destroyed Tenrou LFD Natsu backed up by the Twins. Mard also parried the CSK who can do as much damage as Hades with just a simple swing of his sword. You can't forget that Attack Potency is a thing as well lol. Just bcs Mard Geer doesn't have stellar DC attacks doesn't mean his AP is weak. Mard wrecked Kyouka with his vines and Kyouka was manhandling Tartarus Erza pre-PoF buffoonery. Silver also froze all off Sun Village and the surrounding mountains which is a comparable feat to Amateratsu 100. Mard Geer was far stronger than Silver.

Hades got beat by Tenrou Team Natsu + Laxus. Mard Geer got beat by a collective force of CSK, Twins, Tartarus DF Natsu and Tartarus DeS Gray. Mard has the better showings.

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#23  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@jdogg: Can we trust these cards?

Memento Mori DOES take a few seconds to be cast, just like Grimoire Law. And MM may immobilize its target, but its range is about 30 feet while GL's must be 100 times better since Fairy Law almost wiped out an entire army. If both Hades and Mard were in their flying bases, Hades could use it to 1-shot Mard while the latter is still flying to reach him.

Hades wasn't really defeated by LFD Natsu since he still got up after Natsu used all his magic on him. And Hades was toying A LOT with Natsu if you look at everything he's capable of: He has enough physical strength to throw a TITAN Makarov, he's agile enough to jump from his flying ship (wich was still above water) to Tenrou Island where Makarov was, he can deflect spells (though we don't know the limits), and he casually casted a devastating spell close to Natsu's final roar, except Natsu was completely drained after doing it (so Hades could've just dodged it to win, and seeing how he can make huge jumps, he likely could've done it). And Hades wasn't even using the Devil Eye's huge boost to do any of this. So you can tell Hades could've stomped him, he just wanted to see Natsu's full strength. In fact, he could've 1-shotted the whole Team Natsu + Laxus with an Amaterasu 100, he just didn't want to destroy his whole ship and his heart.

Indeed, I'd say Hades and CSK's offenses are close: I'm pretty sure an Amaterasu 100 is close to the BASIC CSK slash Mard blocked, but seeing how Mard only blocked ONE of these and dodged the rest, this could likely be his limit. CSK can do worse since he has a mega attack that split the ground in half, wich Mard dodged. Hades can also do worse since he has the Devil's Eye (wich in my opinion doubles or even triples his power). Not sure which is stronger between CSK's best attack VS an Amaterasu 100 boosted by the Devil's Eye, but both are likely stronger than anything Mard can block, except Amaterasu 100 is much harder to dodge since it covers a huge zone instead of forming a straight line.

We don't know if Silver froze the Sun village in a SINGLE move, or if he fought Atlas Flame's soul for several minutes and gradually froze it as the fight kept going. And Kyoka didn't even try to fight back since she's a servant of Mard, so no-wonder she got wrecked. These exemples are too inaccurate for me to consider.

Hades may not have faced threats as big as those Mard fought, but he was always in his base until all his foes were completely drained and brought to their knees, THEN he started unleashing his full power, and only got defeated because the exceeds destroyed his heart in time (and a genius like him is clearly smart enough to create Fairy Heart but not enough to ask one of his Kin of Purgatory to guard his heart!) Mard on the other hand WAS throwing everything he had in the end, and he was still defeated fair and square (maybe not in a 1 VS 1 fight, but not because of external plot either).

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Gilateen

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Mard Geer takes it

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@sinisterspirit:

Let’s see, the fact is Tartaros Natsu>>>>Tenrou Natsu and Base Mard Geer was no selling his attacks, better than hades. Tartaros would destroy grimiorie heart anyway.

No need for me to explain further.

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SinisterSpirit

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#28  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@gilateen: It's debatable if Tartaros DF Natsu's attacks are really better than Hades' since Hades casually blew up 1/4 of Tenrou Island without even using his Devil's Eye (wich likely doubles or even triples his power). True, the GUILD Tartaros is better than Grimoire Heart, but it doesn't necessarily mean the same goes for their masters. Hell, if Grimoire Law is included, Hades could use it to 1-shot the whole Tartaros guild while both flying bases are close (afterall Fairy Law almost wiped out an entire army).

So yeah, please explain further because first impressions can be tricky.

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Gilateen

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#29  Edited By Gilateen

@gilateen: It's debatable if Tartaros DF Natsu's attacks are really better than Hades' since Hades casually blew up 1/4 of Tenrou Island without even using his Devil's Eye (which likely doubles or even triples his power).

Not really that debatable, Tartaros natsu is obviously stronger than his tenrou self. Mard geer(Base) was easily taking and no selling attacks from Natsu, sting, and rogue at the same time without breaking a sweat, he would of killed them if gray hadn’t arrived.

True, the GUILD Tartaros is better than Grimoire Heart

Better and Stronger

but it doesn't necessarily mean the same goes for their masters.

If tenrou natsu could beat him than so can Geer, he had better showing and more impressive.

Hell, if Grimoire Law is included, Hades could use it to 1-shot the whole Tartaros guild while both flying bases are close (afterall Fairy Law almost wiped out an entire army).
thats only if geer allows that to happen, could just restrain him from using it. Memento mori casts faster than that anyway.

So yeah, explain further because first impressions can be tricky.

Nope, cause if hades got beat by tenrou natsu then I don’t see why Mard Geer can’t beat hades.

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SinisterSpirit

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#30  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@gilateen:

Natsu never really beat Hades, since Hades still got up after Natsu used all his magic on him. And Hades was beyond toying with Natsu since he already had impressive feats even without the use of his Devil's Eye (like throwing Makarov in his titan form, jumping from his flying ship to where Makarov landed, blowing up 1/4 of Tenrou Island, reflecting one of Makarov's spells back to him) yet he didn't do any of this against Natsu, he mostly stood by and barely fought back, probably because he wanted to see Natsu's full strength. Even without the Devil's Eye, he could've easily won in many ways: Jumping high enough to dodge Natsu's final roar (wich drained all of Natsu's magic), casting an Amaterasu Formula wich was enough to bring Laxus to his knees, throwing Natsu into the skies with his titanic strength (he did grab his fists with a chain and Natsu took a few seconds to break free), etc.

Actually no, Grimoire Law and Memento Mori's casting times seem pretty close, except Memento Mori only affected a 15 per 15 feet zone while Mard was 30 feet away. If we imagine that both guilds' flying bases are close, with their members ready to fight, there's no-way Mard would have enough range to use it on Hades while they're both still in their flying bases, but Grimoire Law WOULD have enough range and zone effect to end the fight before it even starts.

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CyberBlades22

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@sinisterspirit:

- Fair enough by feats Hades has superior destructive power, I however think Mard Geer's spells should be durable enough to tank Hades attacks since his base spell tanked a hit from CSK's sword swing so while it can be argued Hades has more destructive power Mard's thorns have tanked sword swings from the CSK. Mard Geer however was still in base during the fight CSK and had END's book in his hand so we can't really say he was full power, and he has been shown to get serious and Enraged like when Gray and Natsu survived Memento Mori through Gray's Devil slayer magic. I think Mard Geer should have the durability to survive amaterasu 100 since he has blocked strikes from the CSK and his attacks forced CSK to block with his sword as well.

No Caption Provided

When the CSK was charging Galaxia Blade and his magic engulfed the entire battlefield, Mard Geer assumed the CSK was using an offensive spell that covered all sides and didn't look worried at all implying that he has the durability to survive an attack of that scale,caliber, and magic power, and he was still in base during this.

So while Mard Geer may not have on panel Destructive feats of Hades amaterasu 100's level, he still has his thorn curse that managed to tank some of CSK's attacks and even damage him, along with his already amazing durability. While I avoid using VS battles pixel scaling and DC calcs, the calcs for CSK attack that put a hole through the Cube apparently scales above Hades amaterasu 100, so Mard blocking a couple of bloodlusted CSK's strike and trading 2 blows with him should scale his spells durability to a similar level, not his destructive power since Mard hasn't shown destructive power of this level. So I can agree that Hades indeed has better on panel feats when it comes to destructive power.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Captain_Torch/Celestial_Spirit_King_Feats

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Captain_Torch/Tenrou_Calcs_Machup

- Agreed, Nemesis could prove troublesome for Mard.

- Seems reasonable I don't have any disagreements for your reasoning's here. Agreed Mard Geer should have superior durability. Also agree with this, Mard Geer with Etherious should be able to block CSK's attack imo based off him implying that he could survive a offensive spell on the level of Galaxia Blade (since he originally thought Galaxia Blade was a attack aimed at him and everything around CSK). True Hades could reflect attacks back so this could be a key factor in their battle especially with devils eye powering it up.

- Agreed.

- I actually just thought of this now but isn't Grimoire Law just Hades version of fairy law or another derivation of Law (but with darkness instead or a darker light), and the description of Fairy Law / Law is a bright light that envelopes the area and after the user counts to 3 to prep the spell it the light eliminates all the user deem to be an enemy. Since the spell is light based (or possibly darkness based) couldn't Mard Geer technically absorb it like he did with Stings light/white and Rogues darkness dragon slayer unison raid spell.

No Caption Provided

If Mard Geer can absorb Grimoire Law and darkness based spells that just give him the win in this fight imo. I think it's a possibility since he did absorb a unison raid of light and darkness dragon slayer magic that surrounded him. But if not I agree this would be a draw between both their ultimate spells. Agreed Hades destructive power is better while Mard Geer is more durable, faster and agile with flight.

I think he could defend against the attack or tank it, Makarov did survive against it and base Mard Geershould be above while Etherious Mard Geer would be above even that, and with defensive spells he could minimize the damage taken from amaterasu 100. Agreed Hades is intelligent but Mard Geer should have comparable intelligence to Hades, if not his knowledge and 400 years of experience should make up for this and should also in turn allow him to better understand Hades attack patterns. That's true Hades does have remarkable physical strength but Mard Geer arguably does too since he has really good hand to hand feat and physical power showings like dragging Natsu and Gray through the ground. I can agree with that Memento Mori is just meant to erase whatever is in the area of the spell while Fairy Law and Grimoire Law eliminate whatever their light covers if the user deems them an enemy (tho the more people it's used the worse the drawbacks on the user become which could lead to death if used on to many people but maybe Hades heart could minimize or completely eliminate this drawback). It's possible but I'm not sure since Tartaros is stated to be the stronger of the two guilds so I'm inclined to believe it won't be that easy for Hades to take them out. That's true his heart probably does remove the side effects, but I'm not sure how the spell would effect people on the level of the 9 demon gates + Mard Geer. I also think the place where the battle takes place is pretty important, because if it takes places on the Cube then Mard Geer could use Alegria, but if the battle takes place on Hades ship or close to it then it could be a big handicap to Hades since his heart is on the ship and if damaged would result in his defeat. But for this battle I'm assuming it's on neutral ground and not on the Cube (since Alegria would give Mard a big advantage) and that Hade's ship is out of range to get his heart damaged.

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SinisterSpirit

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#32  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@cyberblades22:

Indeed, none of them can 1-shot the other except of course with Grimoire Law and Memento Mori, and I doubt Mard could absorb Grimoire Law because absorbing Sting and Rogue's combined attacks isn't that impressive, even a base Natsu can overpower them. I don't deny that while Hades' offense is better, Mard has a better defense, so they'll both tank each other's attacks until one crumbles first. Here's my analyzis of who would fall first and why:

In my opinion, the order of destructiveness is: Basic CSK Slash ~ Basic Amaterasu 100 ≤ the huge Lightning Fire Roar that drained all Natsu's magic < Natsu's Phoenix Sword attack ≤ Amaterasu 100 with the Devil Eye ≤ CSK's Meteor Blade attack that split the ground. The best Mard managed to BLOCK with a spell was a Basic CSK slash, while the best he could WITHSTAND was Natsu's Phoenix Sword. If you take an Amaterasu 100 with the Devil Eye boost - the portion Mard would block with a spell, I'd say the amount of damage left he'd take is roughly equal to a basic Amaterasu 100, or a bit less. He can tank that, but not forever, and he can't dodge it since it covers a too big zone.

Mard seems to have 2 main types of Thorns: The ones he used against mages like Natsu, Sting, Rogue and Gray, wich can be tanked, dodged or destroyed in advance. Even after the unnamed "explosion" he used, his foes could still fight (and they're likely less durable than Hades). I'm willing to believe these Thorns can be worse, but Mard never SHOWED anything worse, even when he was enraged, so I doubt his worse is THAT far from it. His other type is the one he used against CSK, wich may be lethal, but seeing how these Thorns's WIDTH is bigger than a human size, using them on agile humans would be like trying to pierce a fly by throwing spears: You'd always miss, wich explains why Mard never did it. So I eliminate this one and only focus on the first type.

Hades' agility seems close (though still not as good) to Mard's, his defensive spell and natural durability are considerably weaker but still better than any human Mard faced, and he can summon dozens of Nemesis demons who'd protect him. Also due to his heart, Hades recovers quickly from non-lethal hits. By combining all these elements: Mard's Thorns - those Hades can dodge - those he can block with a spell - those his Nemesis demons can protect him from = Nothing much left I'm afraid. And if Mard can spam his unnamed explosion (wich is pretty hard to dodge), even if Hades' defensive spell isn't enough to block it, he'd still be able to tank it easily since even Natsu, Sting and Rogue tanked it (and they didn't use any defensive spell). And even IF he falls first because of this (wich I doubt), he'd constantly get back up due to his heart.

So I'm pretty sure Mard would crumble first, though he'd still put up a good fight.

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CyberBlades22

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@sinisterspirit:

My reasoning for saying Mard Geer could possibly absorb it is because he said light and darkness and that it will vanish within him which implies magical attacks of light or dark can be absorbed by him so since Grimoire Law is light or dark based it should also get absorbed by Mard Geer. I'm not trying to say that Sting Rogue's spell is strong or comparable to Grimoire Law only that light and dark spells by Mard Geer's words seem to be ineffective against and that law spells light based, or possibly dark based for Grimoire law. Even when the celestial spirit king was using galaxia blade a spell that he described using star light, Mard Geer was confident he would survive the spell if it was intended to destroy him, possibly through his absorption.

I can agree with the order on the spells, but it's possible some spells would be below others but it's difficult to tell since some haven't been used full power but I agree that the order of destructive power should look like this. I can see Mard Geer dodging amaterasu 100 since he did dodge CSK's slashes that managed to cover long ranges in a short amount of time so I can see it being possible for him to dodge Amaterasu 100 from devils eye Hades. He can also use his thorns to cover himself and his defensive spell that pushes away enemies and their attacks, and his flight should also help him avoid the attack imo.

That's true that Mard Geer didn't show anything worse with thorns but we can say that with etherious his attacks could be worse since we're also giving Hades the same benefit with his devils eye amped amaterasu 100, otherwise it seems kinda unfair to say Hades spell would be stronger with devils eye but Mard Geer's thorns from his etherious form wouldn't be stronger. Agreed the bigger thorns while stronger are usually mean't for bigger opponents and thus I see it being possible for Hades to dodge unless Mard Geer could restrain him and pierce him which could be possible with the thorns he uses to restrain with being used in conjunction with the bigger thorns. It's also note mentioning that Mard did toy with 3 dragon slayers for the most part and none of them really damaged him until Gray came along and it's possible that dealing with 3 opponents at once might have made it harder for him to focus on a single target since before that he had caught Natsu in thorns before Sting and Rogue saved him and after getting more serious he nearly took out Natsu, Sting, and Rogue before Gray saved them.

Agreed, but I think Mard Geer's agility would be considerably greater than Hades imo. Agreed Mard Geer hasn't faced anyone as strong as Hades but it's worth mentioning that same can be said for Hades and that the opponents he fought were weaker than the ones Mard Geer fought. Agreed Hades can repeatedly get up with his heart but it's possible that there is a limit to how much his heart can save him. I think Mard's durability, speed, agility would help him a lot in this match and that the match would be close, I think it could be a stalemate if both cast ultimate spells which I honestly see Mard using early on due to Hades ability to get back up after being damaged and since Hades should be above Natsu or Gray he should use the spell early on. I think Mard might have been holding back with the explosive spell and that he could similarly amp with his etherious form while serious, and the same could also be said for Makarov surviving amaterasu 100 from base Hades. Mard could use the moment he's getting back up to prep a memento mori and also use his thorns to stab or hold down Hades.

Overall I agree with you on the match being close but I think it's either a stalemate or a possible win in Mard's case if he can absorb Grimmoire Law which should be possible since he has been shown capable of absorbing light and dark based magic and I don't think strength of the magic doesn't have anything to do with him absorbing the spell since he commented that the spell of dark and light was magnificent. If Mard can eliminate the threat of Grimoire Law I can see him taking the victory.

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SinisterSpirit

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#34  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@cyberblades22:

There's always a limit when the spell is too powerful, even Gray's supposed "immunity" to ice after he became a Devil Slayer proved to have limits against Invel. And Mard could've likely been confident just because he could dodge CSK's blade, no-need to be resistant enough when you don't get hit.

Mard may have dodged CSK's best attack, but this attack still formed a straight line, a big lateral jump was enough to dodge it. An Amaterasu 100 on the other hand covers a huge zone both in height, length and width, so unless Mard can jump or fly Kilometers high in less than a second, I don't see how he could dodge it.

I'm also willing to believe Mard Geer's offensive power increases with his Etherious form, but in comparison to Hades, he didn't have any excuse not to use it at its best. Hades didn't use an Amaterasu 100 in the final fight since it would've destroyed his entire ship (including his heart), and by the time he got serious and was about to throw everything, his heart was already destroyed, weakening his Nemesis demons' attacks. Mard on the other hand didn't have to be careful about anything, he didn't get weakened by plot, he did get serious (even enraged) in the end, and yet he still didn't do much worse than what we already saw. That's why as much as I wanna believe his Etherious form boosts his powers, I think it mostly increases his durability and speed.

True, maybe focusing on 3 opponents at once slowed him down. But I doubt immobilizing Hades would be easy, in fact even without his arsenal of spells, he should be able to break free with his physical strength since he was strong enough to throw a Titan Makarov (and by my calculations, this titan form was even taller than CSK).

Hades' REFLEXES may not be as good as Mard's if you compare how they fought Team Natsu and Natsu + Sting + Rogue respectively (Hades dodged SOME attacks from 5 opponents while Mard dodged almost ALL attacks from 3 opponents and he was holding a book), however Hades' JUMPS should be better than Mard's: After he threw Makarov somewhere on Tenrou Island, his ship was still above water, yet he easily jumped from it to the place Makarov landed. The distance must've been KILOMETERS long, wich is more impressive than any jump Mard ever made. I know Mard should still be considered more agile IN GENERAL, but not by very far if you forget his flight.

Hades' heart surely has a limit against too big damage (like Mard's giant Thorns IF they ever hit him), but seeing how he could tank regular Thorns better than mages of Natsu's level (plus he can partially block them with a spell), I doubt Mard would be able to hurt him beyond healing. Anyway even if he CAN, it doesn't mean he'll have time, maybe HE'LL be the one falling first, and unlike Hades, he can't heal himself once he's down.

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CyberBlades22

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@sinisterspirit:

Fair point, but Natsu was eating Atlas flame so I think it's possible. CSK's attack was coming from every direction so I doubt Mard could have dodged, his only option was tanking the attack, blocking it or absorbing it, the only way for him to avoid it would have been out running the attack which would mean that he could avoid amaterasu 100 the same way since both spells had similar range, but you could also be right saying Mard was being overconfident but I think he would have pulled out his etherious form at the bare minimum if that was the case, since he does know when to get serious like against Gray and Natsu, and Mard does have prior knowledge about CSK as they had met before.

I think it's possible since the height of the two attacks are really similar and CSK's attack seems faster since it crossed a larger distance, and he could just fly to avoid it.

Fair enough, I still think that Etherious would increase Mard's all of Mard's stats. Mard only lost due to being offguard by Gray tho, who also had a slayer advantage against him and his powers at the time were amped due to making half his body demonic.

Mard did immobilize CSK so he should be able to immobilize Hades with both his restraining thorns and his piercing thorns that he used against CSK, I don't think Hades physical strength is enough to break free since CSK should have higher physical strength and Hades was using chain magic hen he threw Makrov it's difficult to say whether the chain magic did most of the work in throwing Makarov, but still I won't deny that Hades is really strong physically.

I think Mard would have better jumps since in the manga we don't really see how Hades made it from his ship to Tenrou (he could have used magic) while Mard is seen on panel jumping from ground level to above the CSK and even jumping above CSK's attacks that are taller than CSK himself. The distance isn't kilometers it's a few hundred meters at most from what I can see in the manga scan.

I think Mard's agility would be considerably above Hades in all honesty, Mard for the most part was in base toying around with a book in one hand.

I agree with some of this, but I think Mard's thorns he used on CSK could hurt Hades beyond healing. Fair point but Mard with flight, better speed, durability and agility should be able to prevent himself from going down first.

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SinisterSpirit

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@cyberblades22: True, I forgot about Atlas Flame. But Mard's absorbtion doesn't work like a Slayer's, and it doesn't have enough feats to convince me that it can really negate something of Grimoire Law's level (even a base Natsu can overpower Dragonforce Sting and Rogue, and I don't think they were in DF when they fought Mard, right?)

I'm not sure of following you with "CSK's attack was coming from every direction so I doubt Mard could have dodged"... CSK's moves were slow, so Mard could see each attack coming and move out of the blade's trajectory. Also I highly doubt the height and width of CSK's occasional blasts is as huge as an Amaterasu 100 (though I don't deny the damage they cause must still be close). If I remember well, they were barely as high as CSK himself, while an Amaterasu 100 mist be quite bigger since its diameter is as big as 1/4 of Tenrou Island. Sure, CSK's best attack split the ground and formed a kilometers-long LINE, but it doesn't matter if you can just step aside.

Anyway the range of Hades' Amaterasu Formulas may not be clear, but seeing how he can make the magic circles appear anywhere he wants, he can surely cast this spell in the airs, making it difficult even for a flying Mard to dodge it. Flying is one thing, but how FAST can Mard fly? Once the magic circles appear, Mard only has 2-3 seconds to get out of a zone as big as 1/4 of Tenrou Island, or maybe even bigger if the Devil's Eye is activated. Even if he can do that, he'd be extremely far from Hades, and Hades would be prepared to cast another if Mard gets close enough. So I really think Mard will be forced to only block and tank without ever dodging, even his Thorns' range must have a limit and I doubt they could reach Hades from THAT far.

Regardless of whether Hades jumped or used magic, his mobility is still impressive. In fact, if Hades magically teleported or flew, this would make him even harder to hit than if he had just jumped.

It's true that Hades' strength may not be enough to break free afterall, but I still can't see how Mard's Thorns could reach him in the first place. Even assuming they could've taken Natsu down 3 times faster if Sting and Rogue hadn't been there, there would be dozens of Nemesis demons protecting Hades, Hades' agility is likely better (or at least equal) to Tartaros Natsu's, and he has a protective spell strong enough to deflect one of Makarov's spells (wich is likely as strong as Mard's Thorns, though it affects a much smaller zone). Only the giant Thorns that pierced CSK would break through the Nemesis demons + Hades' defensive spell, but we already agreed Hades could easily dodge them if he's not already immobilized.

So in my opinion, Mard can't really hurt Hades except with his unnamed explosion, if it really deals more damage than regular Thorns. But I think the damage it causes - the amount Hades would block with his spell wouldn't leave much, at least not nearly as much as a Devil Eye boosted Amaterasu 100 - the amount Mard can block. However the fight would still be close since Mard did prove he could take more damage than Hades, so at first glance, it looks like it could go either way: A bigger durability taking bigger damage VS a lesser durability taking lesser damage. However seeing how Hades' heart slowly regenerates him, the minor or moderate injuries left by Mard's explosion should be almost healed by the time Mard casts another.

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Raziel2014

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#37  Edited By Raziel2014

Mard geer is far stronger than Base Hades, Full Power Hades could possibly match Base Mard geer however Etherion form Mard will still win out.

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floridaman29

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#38  Edited By floridaman29

Mard Geer stomps Hades to the ground.

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SinisterSpirit

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Guys, please explain instead of just saying "This one stomps. The end."

I know Mard gave the IMPRESSION to be stronger and newer villains are USUALLY stronger than older ones, but it doesn't prove anything.

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SinisterSpirit

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@drdaddy: Simple curiosity, what do YOU think?

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SinisterSpirit

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#41  Edited By SinisterSpirit

One thing I just noticed: Makarov's size in his titan form is likely close to CSK's, right? Well in his fight against Acnologia, we can see the trees are reaching his waist, which would make an Amaterasu 100 over 20 times bigger than him. And I looked at the hole CSK made in Tartaros' cube when he pierced through it, it was about 1/10 of the size of the whole cube. This should mean the blast of an Amaterasu 100 is even bigger than the entire Tartaros cube, and I repeat Hades wasn't even using the Devil Eye's boost, which should at least double the destructiveness!

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legend531

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I don't have that much knowledge of either one, but Mard geer could win.

Stomping a far stronger Natsu and Gray who already unlocked their 2nd Origin is impressive enough to put him above Hades.

Yes I will keep in mind that Hades didn't technically lose the fight, his heart was destroyed thus leading him to become a goner,

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legend531

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@sinisterspirit: Amatarasu 100 Couldn't even kill Makarov, soo.... I doubt it would even damage Mard geer at all

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SinisterSpirit

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#44  Edited By SinisterSpirit

@legend531: Makarov barely survived Amaterasu 100 even though he used a godlike defense spell. Sure, Hades can't 1-shot Mard, but he can definitely hurt him, especially with the Devil's Eye.

And Mard was mostly "stomping" mages of Tartaros Natsu's level because of his huge speed and defense, but his offense is quite disappointing: His opponents weren't the most durable ones, yet even in Etherious form and clearly enraged, he was still just slowly beating them down instead of 1-shotting them.

Hades on the other hand could've easily 1-shotted the whole Team Natsu + Laxus, he just didn't want to accidentally destroy his entire ship.

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SinisterSpirit

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#45  Edited By SinisterSpirit

I'm mostly on Hades' side because even though I know people grew stronger with time, Mard WAS at full power and even enraged in the end, yet he was defeated fair and square by Natsu + Slayer advantage Gray.

On the other hand, Natsu + Gray + Erza + Lucy + Wendy + Laxus couldn't beat 20% of Hades' full power (if you look at his best feats against Makarov, you can see he was toying with them in comparison, plus he wasn't using the Devil Eye's huge boost against Makarov).

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Woodward

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Mard stomps.

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SinisterSpirit

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Machoman12345

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I would give it to hades

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Wabubub

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Mard. People are overestimating Hades who wasn't much stronger than Laxus really.

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SinisterSpirit

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@wabubub: You mean Current Laxus or Tenrou Laxus? Hades was MUCH stronger than Tenrou Laxus, he just couldn't use spells such as Amaterasu 100 inside his ship because his heart was close and the blast of an A100 is like 10 times bigger than his ship.