The debates should focus on the quality of the argument and should not devolve into a respect thread. To that end, each debater will be limited to six feats per-post. Feats are defined as thus: Credit again to Jedi for the rules
Any sort of image
With the exception of the opening image of your character, should you wish to provide one, for purposes of fanfare. Same goes for a closing image.
Feats are counted on a per-image basis, so multiple scans will count as multiple feats. The only exception is a splash page, which counts as one.
Any sort of quote (whether in-universe or out-of-universe)
Any sort of video or audiofile.
You may refer to any timestamp within a 30 second span in a video, and it will be one feat. Going beyond that will count as another feat.
Ex: In a video 5 minutes long, referring to any feats that occur between 1:32 and 2:02 is one feat. Then going and citing a feat at 2:10 will count as a second feat.
Links to anything. Respect threads, other user's posts, etc.
If you cite another user's work (for, say, math calculations), then it will count as a feat. If you use somebody's work and do not cite it, you will be disqualified.
This includes posting negative feats against your opponents, so use your four feats wisely. You may describe a feat or ability and explain how it would come into play in the debate. But the point of this is to test your own critical reasoning and not rely on a flood of feats to support your character. There is no post count limit, and you should be encouraged to write a lot.
Feats may be used in your opening and successive posts. However, no feats may be posted within your concluding post. Each player will be given four posts each: one introduction, two debate posts, and one conclusion (with no feats). The person who goes first will be decided based on a computer-generated coin toss, conducted by me. The battle conditions will be negotiated between the two players and I, then I will post the thread. The battle itself will be judged like a CaV. Voters must have over 500 posts (there is no post count restriction for tournament participants, however). Participants may not vote.
Character rules:
Character must not casual island busting in strength, durability or DC
Speed should cap at MHS to just above MHS. Nothing sub-relativistic or above.
Healing factor: Cannot survive decapitation or destruction of the brain or heart.
No offensive telepathy (mind-reading is acceptable)
Summons, constructs or any other fodder can be no stronger than 616 Spider-man
Summons, constructs or other fodder are limited to 25
Clones are limited to 10
No NLF precognition
No reality warping
No intangibility
No BFR
No Time Manipulation
Other hax will be dealt with on a case by case basis.
I will have the final say on who is allowed. If you don't like it, move on.
I'm not gonna bother with an actual bio considering how restrictive this format is. So I'll just hop right into the feats. Due to the nature of this format, this post I will focus on offensive capabilities. I place Fate in the Multi-Mountain level category through scaling and potency feats, but before I get to proving strength I will feel I should talk about his abilities in general similar to what you did.
Feats and Stuff
Fate keeps up with Negi, who's speed is stated to be the return stroke of lightning So right off the bat this is automatically better than virtually any presented speed statement for the characters in Naruto. Nobody in Naruto should be that fast until Naruto gets his final powerup in the series. So Fate should have a solid speed advantage over Naruto which Fate can take full advantage of.
His main way of ending this fight is by turning Naruto into stone. He can do this via lasers, energy blasts, physical contact or even full on clouds of petrification magic
He instantly skewers a giant Dragon and turns it into stone.
Petrification isn't lethal, but it does incapacitate, and even if it doesn't completely cover you or knock you out that leaves you vulnerable to a continued assault. Meaning, the instant Naruto gets hit,(which should be easy seeing as Fate is faster) he gets skewered and manhandled.
You didn't really post a strategy for me to counter so based off what I know of Fate, I will simply argue that he will blitz Naruto, turn him to stone, then wail on him. The match ends there.
Fate keeps up with Negi, who's speed is stated to be the return stroke of lightningSo right off the bat this is automatically better than virtually any presented speed statement for the characters in Naruto. Nobody in Naruto should be that fast until Naruto gets his final powerup in the series. So Fate should have a solid speed advantage over Naruto which Fate can take full advantage of.
Nice and all but the speed of the return stroke(relastivistic) is well above the massively hypersonic limit of the tourney.
His main way of ending this fight is by turning Naruto into stone. He can do this via lasers, energy blasts, physical contact or even full on clouds of petrification magic
He instantly skewers a giant Dragon and turns it into stone.
Petrification isn't lethal, but it does incapacitate, and even if it doesn't completely cover you or knock you out that leaves you vulnerable to a continued assault. Meaning, the instant Naruto gets hit,(which should be easy seeing as Fate is faster) he gets skewered and manhandled.
Seems like a dangerous technique. Fortunately for Naruto, Fate's only showcased speed feat is above the tourney's limit thus gets automatically invalidated meaning Naruto and his 10 clones can blitz Fate before the latter even knows he's in a fight.
I have two feats left so I'll use this opportunity to mention Fate's shields. He has a multi-layered defense which allows him to take insane hits. Even allowing him to outright ignore an orbital laser that can engulf a monster that was 700 meter tall monster( I'll show this next post.) and created an explosion that was several kilometers wide.(I will cite info and scans to back the size of this later if needed)
Durability Feats for the shield? Anything short of multi moutain durability would mean he gets his shield destroyed and dies when Naruto makes a Taled Beast Bomb that was shown to be able to stalemate 5 mountain busting Bijuudamas. Tanking A laser that "engulfed" a 700m monster is useless when you didn't give DC/Potency feats for the laser nor Durability feats for the monster(I assume the laser managed to kill the monster).
Gallery
You didn't really post a strategy for me to counter so based off what I know of Fate,
I cannot post a strategy when I know nothing about this Fate dude prior to reading this post. A strategy is not the only thing that get countered in a tourney/CaV, you counter your opponent's character abilities as well, like I did.
I will simply argue that he will blitz Naruto,
Fate Can't blitz Naruto when the only speed feat that was represented for him is above the tourney's limit leaving him with 0 speed feats. Naruto is the one doing the blitzing.
turn him to stone, then wail on him. The match ends there.
Same here, Naruto is faster but let's just assume the return stroke thing was valid, Fate would have to go pertrifying Naruto's 10 clones one by one before getting to the real Naruto, which is something he can't accomplish when either of the 10 clones can just detonate a TBB /Rasenshuriken on ground, Fate would be caught in the AoE and would die since you didn't post moutain/multi-mountain durability feats for him or for his shield.
Conclusion:
Naruto is faster and can blitz as the only speed feat showcased for Fate is above the tourney's limit.
Naruto can one-shot throught TBB/Rasenshuriken since no multi-moutain durability/Piercing durability feats were showcased for Fate nor for his shield.
@rabii99: Pffft you think I need that to not only argue my character within limits, but argue that my character blitzes Naruto? Not even. Expect my post in an couple of hours.
@rabii99:Since I posted what I needed for Fate's basic abilities, and I am still limited to six scans, I will focus on two things. Some of Fate's abilities to counter Naruto, and Fate's speed, which I only need a couple of scans to prove.
Round 2
,,,
Seems like a dangerous technique. Fortunately for Naruto, Fate's only showcased speed feat is above the tourney's limit thus gets automatically invalidated meaning Naruto and his 10 clones can blitz Fate before the latter even knows he's in a fight.
Fine. I have something equally enough to blitz Naruto anyway. You barely touched on why dodging Raikage was impressive asides the fact that he is as fast as lightning or faster. Which I am aware of. But nobody in Naruto save EOS Naruto has ever done something like what I am about to show you. AND ITS WITHIN LIMITS.
Gallery
UQ Holder Chapter 38
Here Fate reacts to an orbital laser. The distance between low earth orbit and the ground is over 1000 miles.(Close to 1300) this laser crossed such a huge distance in an instant. At two seconds crossing that distance is Mach 3000, 1 second, Mach 6000. That's absolutely insane. This is faster than virtually any feat you can possibly show me for BSM Naruto or what you showed so far, so I still think Naruto is getting massively blitzed considering the speed of lightning is only Mach 300 at most. As you said the return stroke of lightning is 1/3rd the speed of light. This feat is far below that. So MHS feats are still existent in this verse.
Durability Feats for the shield? Anything short of multi moutain durability would mean he gets his shield destroyed and dies when Naruto makes a Taled Beast Bomb that was shown to be able to stalemate 5 mountain busting Bijuudamas.
Tanking A laser that "engulfed" a 700m monster is useless when you didn't give DC/Potency feats for the laser nor Durability feats for the monster(I assume the laser managed to kill the monster).
The problem is, there is so much scaling and lore I would have to go into just to give you a solid idea on how powerful that monster is. But since I posted two scans so far I am down to four. Anyway, Naruto doesn't start off with Biiju Bombs anyway even if I don't manage to satisfy you with feats.
When I have a limit on the amount of scans I am able to post, the only thing I can do for an opener is spitball terms like multi-mountain level and such. That 700 meter tall monster was going toe to toe with an ancient dragon that stalemated Jack Rakan, another character with mountain level feats. In the fight between the dragon and the monster, it one-shotted the dragon casually.(Chapter281) Jack Rakan is the same guy who on the fly made a technique that one shotted a mountain. And he was completely casual at the time. (Chapter 201) In my next post if you doubt the legitimacy of the feat I can get more scans to discuss the likely size of it compared to other structures. So now that we have a general idea of how durable and powerful the monster is.(It one shotted a dragon that could fight evenly with a combatant that could level mountains while trying to think of new techniques to specifically teach, and accidentally made it more powerful than intended, meaning he was holding back, if you'd like read the chapter for context) So the Dragon can reasonably be argued as mountain level in terms of durability, in some capacity correct? The same monster shrugged off an assault from the dragon but yet was completely vaporized by the aforementioned laser.(Chapter 281) So a 700 meter tall and wide monster durable enough to take on mountain+ characters(and that's a lowball mind you since I don't have a bunch of scaling and other scans to back this in one post) was completely bombarded and vaporized by a laser that Fate casually blocked with his shields. To give you an idea look up the tokyo sky tree to give you another perspective on how tall that is. That's pretty insane and I think falls under the radar of Multi-Mountain level, in my next post I'll go into more detail relating to scaling considering I posted my arguments for speed and durability.
I cannot post a strategy when I know nothing about this Fate dude prior to reading this post. A strategy is not the only thing that get countered in a tourney/CaV, you counter your opponent's character abilities as well, like I did.
A strategy is a general battle plan. Like the one I presented. Even If I knew nothing about Naruto, my general battle plan if for Fate to engage his opponent, use his earth magic to skewer his opponents and petrify them, and blitz them to oblivion in close quarters. To give an example in your case you could say, Naruto's battle plan is to start off with a bunch of clones to feel out Fate's fighting style.
Same here, Naruto is faster but let's just assume the return stroke thing was valid, Fate would have to go pertrifying Naruto's 10 clones one by one before getting to the real Naruto, which is something he can't accomplish when either of the 10 clones can just detonate a TBB /Rasenshuriken on ground, Fate would be caught in the AoE and would die since you didn't post moutain/multi-mountain durability feats for him or for his shield.
He doesn't need to go to each individual clone, also if Fate is massively faster than Naruto(which he is) then he would blitz all ten before he could do a thing. Besides it won't matter if Fate uses an AOE petrification technique. Anyway, Fate can spam literal hundreds of petrification darts. Meaning he would tag all ten clones in an instant.
Remember each of those darts can petrify AND poke a huge hole through Naruto. Soooo yeah a bunch of these would swarm your clones, making them irrelevant every single time and eventually tag the real naruto. Fate can also create decoys as well to bait out Naruto
To Conclude
Fate is still faster, is still tough enough and even if he cannot tank a biiju bomb, naruto won't use it before Fate uses petrification and is likely too fast for Biiju Bombs to tag him regardless. Naruto's clones are his biggest saving grace, but he won't make a dent with only 10 clones. Fate wins.
Here Fate reacts to an orbital laser. The distance between low earth orbit and the ground is over 1000 miles.(Close to 1300) this laser crossed such a huge distance in an instant. At two seconds crossing that distance is Mach 3000, 1 second, Mach 6000. That's absolutely insane.
1 second and 2 seconds are both highballs but I'm gonna along with that since it's still not enough to make Fate faster than Naruto. Narutoverse's cloud-to-ground lightning speed from Cumulonimbus clouds is 0.001 second, Cumulonimbus range from 200m to 4000m. Just taking the median it becomes 2100m/0.001 s= mach 6122. So Naruto while only taking the median for Cumuloninmbus height is still faster than Fate while highballing the time it took the laser.
Gallery
This is faster than virtually any feat you can possibly show me for BSM Naruto or what you showed so far,
so I still think Naruto is getting massively blitzed considering the speed of lightning is only Mach 300 at most.
As you said the return stroke of lightning is 1/3rd the speed of light. This feat is far below that. So MHS feats are still existent in this verse.
Countered above.
The problem is, there is so much scaling and lore I would have to go into just to give you a solid idea on how powerful that monster is. But since I posted two scans so far I am down to four. Anyway, Naruto doesn't start off with Biiju Bombs anyway even if I don't manage to satisfy you with feats.
When I have a limit on the amount of scans I am able to post, the only thing I can do for an opener is spitball terms like multi-mountain level and such. That 700 meter tall monster was going toe to toe with an ancient dragon that stalemated Jack Rakan, another character with mountain level feats. In the fight between the dragon and the monster, it one-shotted the dragon casually.(Chapter281) Jack Rakan is the same guy who on the fly made a technique that one shotted a mountain. And he was completely casual at the time. (Chapter 201) In my next post if you doubt the legitimacy of the feat I can get more scans to discuss the likely size of it compared to other structures. So now that we have a general idea of how durable and powerful the monster is.(It one shotted a dragon that could fight evenly with a combatant that could level mountains while trying to think of new techniques to specifically teach, and accidentally made it more powerful than intended, meaning he was holding back, if you'd like read the chapter for context) So the Dragon can reasonably be argued as mountain level in terms of durability, in some capacity correct? The same monster shrugged off an assault from the dragon but yet was completely vaporized by the aforementioned laser.(Chapter 281) So a 700 meter tall and wide monster durable enough to take on mountain+ characters(and that's a lowball mind you since I don't have a bunch of scaling and other scans to back this in one post) was completely bombarded and vaporized by a laser that Fate casually blocked with his shields. To give you an idea look up the tokyo sky tree to give you another perspective on how tall that is. That's pretty insane and I think falls under the radar of Multi-Mountain level, in my next post I'll go into more detail relating to scaling considering I posted my arguments for speed and durability.
That "mountain" that Jack Rakan busted is not a mountain. If we're going to consider that mountain sized then the hill that Kurama towered above is also mountain sized. The mountains that Kurama casually busts multiple of, are even bigger than him rendering all that scaling ineffective as it still wouldn't protect Fate from Bijuudamas.
A strategy is a general battle plan. Like the one I presented. Even If I knew nothing about Naruto, my general battle plan if for Fate to engage his opponent, use his earth magic to skewer his opponents and petrify them, and blitz them to oblivion in close quarters. To give an example in your case you could say, Naruto's battle plan is to start off with a bunch of clones to feel out Fate's fighting style.
I can't write a battleplan when I know nothing about the opposing character. What If I write "Naruto makes a bunch of clones to feel out his opponent's fightning style" and the opponent is naturally intangible or can blitz Naruto before the latter thinks of doing anything? One never knows. You could have tried countering my character's abilities, on the other hand.
He doesn't need to go to each individual clone, also if Fate is massively faster than Naruto(which he is) then he would blitz all ten before he could do a thing. Besides it won't matter if Fate uses an AOE petrification technique. Anyway, Fate can spam literal hundreds of petrification darts. Meaning he would tag all ten clones in an instant.
Countered the speed thing, Naruto is the one doing the blitzing.
Remember each of those darts can petrify AND poke a huge hole through Naruto. Soooo yeah a bunch of these would swarm your clones, making them irrelevant every single time and eventually tag the real naruto.
Not gonna happen considering Naruto's speed.
Fate can also create decoys as well to bait out Naruto
Naruto spams Bijuudamas and Fate would die alongside his decoys.
Fate is still faster,
Countered.
is still tough enough and even if he cannot tank a biiju bomb,
Considering the feats and scaling represented for Fate so far, he's not tanking one.
naruto won't use it before Fate uses petrification and is likely too fast for Biiju Bombs to tag him regardless.
Bijuudamas can tag characters of comparable speed to Naruto and as I've shown, Naruto is faster so Bijuudamas will tag Fate.
Naruto's clones are his biggest saving grace, but he won't make a dent with only 10 clones. Fate wins.
Naruto is faster with higher DC than Fate's durability and 10 clones. Naruto wins.
Conclusion:
Naruto is still faster, and with 10 clones of equal speed on top of that. Based on what my opponent has showcased so far, Fate lacks the durability feats to tank the DC of a Bijuudama or the piercing effect of a Rasenshuriken so the match ends as soon as Naruto pulls out either of the two.
1 second and 2 seconds are both highballs but I'm gonna along with that since it's still not enough to make Fate faster than Naruto. Narutoverse's cloud-to-ground lightning speed from Cumulonimbus clouds is 0.001 second, Cumulonimbus range from 200m to 4000m. Just taking the median it becomes 2100m/0.001 s= mach 6122. So Naruto while only taking the median for Cumuloninmbus height is still faster than Fate while highballing the time it took the laser.
Ironically enough those are lowballs, if we take into consideration that the fighters involved in that feat are massively hypersonic I can still take the feat further,(I can provide feats if needed, or if you'd like you can do some research on the characters, there are a few CAVs you could look at and a detailed respect thread on reddit IIRC) so you could further take the value to less than a second like say 0.8 seconds as opposed to a full second and that still a good deal faster than your calculation. If you refer back to the scans I posted, you will notice that the attackers are still in mid-air even after the laser makes impact making the feat more impressive. In regards to your calc the mountain in question looks no more than a 1000 meters, definitely less than 2000 at least. I settled for 1 to 2 seconds(which is the low-end taking no other variables into consideration) because taking the feat any further might be a stretch for the feat in question. In your case that is definitely true, the mountain in question doesn't have many good shots relating to its height, but it seems less than 2000 meters.(Best shots of the mountain are in chapters 380, 390, 391)
I have several problems with this feat.
1) There isn't a stated speed for the bolt of lightning, all we get is a very poorly phrased statement: "lightning is a thousandth of a second, its faster than sound." which is vague, and a lack of understanding on the writer's part relating to lightning, and it was likely referring to how fast lightning travels to the ground. This is the same writer who stated water based attacks in his databook are light speed, and said Kirin is light speed.
2) Despite Zetsu's statement, the lightning bolt was artificially created by Sasuke's own jutsu so there isn't even a guarantee that Zetsu's description matches up with the actually lightning strike in question. And considering how close the clouds Sasuke created were to the mountain they were on, and there wasn't a cloud in sight.(the voters can confirm this in the chapters I cited) I highly doubt the clouds were any higher than 1500 meters which still puts the feat a good degree below the feat for the orbital laser.(This is why I was referring to the height of the mountain up above)
At most you can calc this reasonably to Mach 3000, but even then, it seems more reasonable to argue it as a simple lightning strike,(its speed being consistent with what is known, which is around Mach 200 to Mach 300) as opposed to going off of Zetsu's statement which clearly makes no sense.
3) You showed no feats on par with it nor proved its consistent. Fate has reacted to this orbital laser on two separate occasions, the first occasion he wasn't even at his peak as a combatant, and both instances he accomplished this were ambushes. You also didn't elaborate on how Naruto scales above it.
That "mountain" that Jack Rakan busted is not a mountain. If we're going to consider that mountain sized then the hill that Kurama towered above is also mountain sized. The mountains that Kurama casually busts multiple of, are even bigger than him rendering all that scaling ineffective as it still wouldn't protect Fate from Bijuudamas.
Even busting a hill would be considered small mountain level, completely vaporizing a monster that durable is easily mountain level. Also to elaborate on the size of the mountain, Rakan's tower is 320 meters tall according to the WOG, looking into the mountain in question. The mountain he busted was nowhere in sight even looking at the right side (referring to middle panel where on of the characters points out the oasis)
Here's another shot showing there was no other major elevation in sight.
The mountain must have been a good deal far from their location implying that the mountain is even bigger. I think 1000 meters for its height is fair given its distance.(several calcs reasonably put the mountain at 1000+ meters in height and the final result for the destroying is is always around mountain level) Seeing my limitations on scans, I won't press this issue any further, to boost the credibility of the feat being mountain level, lets elaborate on the destructive capacities of the orbital laser. It was stated to be capable of destroying the ruined city of Ostia, which dwarfs the Gravekeeper place which is about a mile tall and wide.
By the way you see the dome of energy surrounding the gravekeeper's palace and the ruins and what not? That barrier is at least a couple dozens of miles in diameter and the ruins take up most of it. There are several shots I can provide if necessary.
But if none of that is enough I'll settle it with this. Fate and Negi were pretty much neck and neck in terms of raw power. This is important because there are two series. Negima, and UQ Holder. UQ Holder(The version of Fate I am using here) Negi and Fate are absurdly more powerful via scaling. Fate should be on par if not stronger than Negi who destroyed an asteroid 50KM in Diameter
UQ Holder Chapter 140(This takes place during the Negima Era, this is a flashback)
Considering the sheer size of the meteor, this is a multi-mountain feat to island level feat.
That sort of covers power and speed, lets get into the battle overall.
I can't write a battleplan when I know nothing about the opposing character. What If I write "Naruto makes a bunch of clones to feel out his opponent's fightning style" and the opponent is naturally intangible or can blitz Naruto before the latter thinks of doing anything? One never knows. You could have tried countering my character's abilities, on the other hand.
You are looking to deep into this. A battle plan is a general strategy, if your opponent can handle it, then you adapt with the various other strategies your character has. But I'm not going to keep arguing this with you, this is clearly trivial and has no bearing on the debate.
Countered the speed thing, Naruto is the one doing the blitzing.
Even if I agreed with your calc, a measly difference between Mach 6000and Mach 6100 isn't enough to blitz Fate. And AOE techniques mitigate any speed advantage. It was stated that his magic could wipe out as far as the eye can see. Fate says something similar in the same chapter. This is consistent with characters like Evangeline who has feats of freezing entire cities, and another statement Fate made in chapter 139 of UQ Holder stating that he could petrify up to 20 thousand targets, whether this is with a high speed volley of attacks like the darts I showed earlier or one big attack is up in the air, but that says a lot about his potential to immobilize Naruto immediately.
Naruto spams Bijuudamas and Fate would die alongside his decoys.
He would literally never do this in character. Every fight he has ever been in he has started off with close quarter engagements with shadow clones, the instant he does he gets petrified.
To summarize, Naruto starts off with CQC and clones, gets petrified, and immobilized, then Fate skewers him and kills him. He should be fast enough if not way beyond what could be considered a reasonable speed for Naruto, and should scale nicely to or above those who have the raw power to survive a biiju bomb or more, and even if you disagree, Naruto would never use bijuu bombs in character at the start of the battle in any circumstance even if he was willing to go all out. Fate doesn't go around throwing out nukes like the tailed beast do or the juubi in particular, so he wouldn't start off with such a technique. So the only means for Naruto to put down Fate anyway is out of the question, at least until its too late.
@rabii99: Its fine. We can probably do another CAV on this in the future where there isn't any silly restrictions making it harder to scale my characters lmao
@darthjhawk: At first I thought it was simple and was like "HA TOO EASY" But Rabii showed me in this debate that I need more scans to back my points at least for Fate specifically, If I was using Negi or Rakan this probably wouldn't have been an issue.
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