Mandrakk The Monitor vs Molecule Man

Death Battle.

Molecule Man vs Mandrakk The Dark Monitor who would win and Why ? comics

This is spite, Mandrakk blinks.

Molecule Man takes it.

Mandrakk is all Platonic Concepts, he has broadcasted non-existence and battled beings that do not exist yet. The concept of "to exist" means nothing to him. Particle Manipulation cannot affect Platonic ideas.

Molecule Man blinks.

@soratoumiga: @deagonx: @byondeon: Yes. The being composed of no physics is going to be blinked by a physics manipulator. Amazing logic everyone.

@xearesay: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but concepts will never hurt me.

If your argument is "my character is purely conceptual and doesnt even actually exist" then you already lost.

@xearesay: The bias is as bad as ever isn't it?

@sagathelegend: It’s next levels of favoritism. It could be Mandrakk vs 2 rocks and they’d find a way to say the 2 rocks win.

@xearesay: lol @ comparing 2 rocks to a multiversal reality warper.

@deagonx: Who said that was my argument? Did I type those words? Don’t put words in my mouth.

My argument is simple. Mandrakk exist far beyond the Multiverse and views all of creation as a flaw upon the Overvoid. He’s transcendent to the fundamental abstract forms from which realities derive. Making the notion that beings within creations can effect him absolutely ridiculous.

The stuff these comic book writers make is honestly comedy.

@xearesay:

>Making the notion that beings within creations can effect him absolutely ridiculous.

And yet he himself is merely a creation of the Over-void. The fact that fictional worlds exist below him is not a feat unto itself. That'd be like saying Homer Simpson is fundamentally transcendent to fiction because he watches Itchy & Scratchy on TV.

He's "transcendent" but then his fellow Nil Monitors get fought and beaten by Green Lanterns lol. Yeah, real transcendent.

@deagonx: He’s an extension and a probe. Meaning he’s a utilization of what’s already existent. That’s not a creation.

The fictional worlds below all derive from Nil which is literally something Mandrakk can create from scratch.

His depowered fellow Nil Monitor Rox Ogama was thrown into the story and had to be removed by a plot device via another Nil Monitor. However let’s just leave all of that out and say he was “KilLeD bY gReEn LaNtErNs” to sway the ignorant right?

@xearesay: And yet, another "utilization of what's already existent" e.g. World Forger who was also created from a chunk of the Over-void was OHKO'd by sun-dipped Superman.

The dimensional tiering of Monitor-wankers sounds nice and all until you realize whenever these people meet other characters they are of comparable strength to them. Superman shouldnt even be able to perceive World Forger, being that he is literally a piece of Over-void, and yet, he gets physically punched in the face and defeated by him.

>His depowered fellow Nil Monitor

Being depowered shouldnt change the fundamental nature of your existence. That's nonsense.

>However let’s just leave all of that out and say he was “KilLeD bY gReEn LaNtErNs”

Yep that's literally what happened in the comic book. I guess he doesnt actually transcend them, otherwise he should be completely conceptual beyond existence etc etc etc nonsense that you guys bring up.

Lmao, your argument doesn't make sense. Mandrakk embodies an abstract concept that transcends reality, he is not composed of matter or space-time, he is a "living idea". Have you ever heard of Platonism or Idealism? Or better, the power called "Conceptual Embodiment".

Final Crisis runs on the theory that ideas shape the reality DC characters live in, and CAS embodies those ideas, simple as that. Matter or Physics Manipulation won't work on him because physics are meaningless on Nil.

@sagathelegend: Ideas cannot attack people. Therefore MM wins by default.

Conceptual existence is all well and good, but it isnt indicative of an actual power level. Plenty of "living concepts" have been a part of various fictional cosmic hierarchies all with varying level of power. The Endless were once considered living ideas, but they are now well below CAS on the food chain.

So how powerful are these characters? Since their "conceptual nature" isnt an actual feat outside of their own fiction? Not as powerful as Pre Retcon MM, I can tell you that much. The Nil Monitors look cool and all living in "the blank/nil/gone/5000+ other words for the same thing" but then they actually interact with regular characters and are weak as fuck.

World Forger is literally a piece of the highest tier in DC's current continuity, made from a piece of the Overvoid itself, and was totally pimp slapped by an otherwise regular Superman who flew through a bunch of suns first.

Feats. Being a concept is not a feat, or a power level. If the only thing you have to say in your characters favor is that he's a "living idea" then at best it's a stalemate since they cant interact with eachother in a meaningful way.

@sagathelegend: Isn't it funny how they were all fine with this logic until it was being applied to CAS and Mandrakk? All of sudden people went from "Demattis said the all things are apart of Yahweh" too, "no conceptual arguments" and "don't use author statements."

@xearesay: Lol and you have the gall to complain about me "putting words in your mouth?" I've never said anything like that, ever.

Pretty much

@sagathelegend:

>He is not an imaginary idea, he is a platonic idea, those are independant of the human mind and exist outside of reality. He runs on the Platonic Theory of Forms, you confusing things.

It's never been stated anywhere that DC's cosmology runs off of the Theory of Forms. ToF isn't even essential to Platonism. All "platonic" really means out of context is the existence of an abstract being. The whole thing about shadow reality and true reality etc are complete fanon, it's never stated in the comics or even by Grant. But regardless, platonic ideas can't hurt people either. Until they can, in which case the platonic nature of their existence is irrelevant until quantified in the source material. At which point, why are we even discussing the "nature of their existence?"

>"Conceptual Narure isn't a feat outside of their own fiction". By your logic I could say MM has no feats outside of his own fiction which is true.

No, that's not what I mean. Destroying a planet is a compatible feat with other forms of fictions. Being "the living embodiment of death" or something means 100 different things to 100 different universes, which is why quantifiable feats are more important.

>You mean the Superman who was amped and broke the limits of physics and imagination itself. If anything that is a feat for Superman, thank you.

Yep, flying through physical 3D suns allowed a Kryptonian to defeat a 6D being who should be transcendent to all fiction. Horrible, devastating anti-feat for the dimensional tiering argument used by the "CAS stomps all fiction" crowd. If being in a physical, non-platonic, 3D series of yellow suns allows you to hurt a 6d "transcendent" being then the nature of his transcendence is basically irrelevant.

Also it never said he broke physics, it said his speed was beyond physics. Dont change the wording of the comic to suit your needs.

>Also, the World Forge was knocked back only, and stood up afterward without even having to heal himself.

Completely irrelevant, Superman should be unable to even interact with him.

>Not only that but Monitors get weaker while inside a lower plane as existence such as a multiverse.

Then their power is a nature of the plane they are on. On a neutral plane they are relatively normal characters, thus PRMM stomps since his power isnt bottlenecked by what plane he is on.

>but said idea can affect the physical aspects of the world since platonics are the source of their existence in the first place.

Okay, then we are back to feats. To what extent has Mandrakk shown a capability of affecting the physical world? Is it greater than PRMM?

@deagonx: Not comparable. Mandrakk is a story from Monitor Mind while World Forger derives from the Source and perpetua. Perpetua states "you were created from me."

The punch you're referring to ripped apart the 6th dimension of impossibility and shattered World Forgers multiverse.

The World Forger was also not fully KO'd. He could clearly speak and open his eyes. He also gets up one scan afterwards and stands with them. LOL.

And lol he's not even hurt. He was just knocked down and mad that he failed to fully read Batman's mind and was hoodwinked.

>Superman shouldnt even be able to perceive World Forger, being that he is literally a piece of Over-void, and yet, he gets physically punched in the face and defeated by him.

The World Forger literally states he made a physical form to interact with them. Did you even read the issue?

>Being depowered shouldnt change the fundamental nature of your existence. That's nonsense.

And yet it did. I don't care about what you consider nonsense. They took away his powers and dumped his ass into the story so he could be fully woven to narratives. Remember the Monitors were "faceless and numberless until narratives formed around them like crystals in a solution." With no powers they wove him into the story Monitor Mind was working through which effectively trapped him since Nix Uotan was spared to be Monitor Minds final storyteller and representative.

>Yep that's literally what happened in the comic book. I guess he doesnt actually transcend them, otherwise he should be completely conceptual beyond existence etc etc etc nonsense that you guys bring up.

No it's not. Rox was beaten via Nix Uotan and the Miracle Machine. Both which are powers capable of dictating the narrative they were in.

Superman used the Miracle Machine previously to conceptually remove Darkseid from the roots of reality. He still had some of the Miracle Machine in him. Rox was trying to put an end on the story within the Orrery but Superman had already dictated the narrative with a happy ending.

And with the plot set in place. The narrator/storyteller Nix Uotan who Grant stated was left to be Monitor Minds only representative shows up to put an end on the story.

You do realize Rox had to lose no matter the outcome right? The ending is literally just Nix Uotan working through the narrative.

This is why in response Rox tries to "devour these last traces of story" because Nix Uotan was preparing to close out the story with Rox in it.

It's literally the same thing Mandrakk was doing to Thought Robot throughout their battle but in reverse. With this time being Superman and Nix ending the story instead of Mandrakk ending the Thought Robots story.

@xearesay:

>Mandrakk is a story from Monitor Mind while World Forger derives from the Source and perpetua. Perpetua states "you were created from me."

Irrelevant, World Forger was created from a piece of the Over-Void, like all of Perpetua's "children."

>The punch you're referring to ripped apart the 6th dimension of impossibility and shattered World Forgers multiverse.

That's not stated in the scan you posted, but regardless, this is just another huge anti-feat for the 6th dimension. No amount of flying through suns by a Kryptonian should change the nature of his existence. The fact that a piece of Overvoid can even be affected by Superman flying through suns is a horrible antifeat.

>The World Forger was also not fully KO'd. He could clearly speak and open his eyes. He also gets up one scan afterwards and stands with them. LOL.

And he still got knocked down by someone he should transcend by multiple infinities due to the very nature of his existence. LOL.

>The World Forger literally states he made a physical form to interact with them.

He should still be all powerful relative to them. But he isnt.

>And yet it did. I don't care about what you consider nonsense. They took away his powers and dumped his ass into the story so he could be fully woven to narratives. Remember the Monitors were "faceless and numberless until narratives formed around them like crystals in a solution." With no powers they wove him into the story Monitor Mind was working through which effectively trapped him since Nix Uotan was spared to be Monitor Minds final storyteller and representative.

And yet he should have been conceptually transcendent to most of the characters in that story and wasn't. Huge anti-feat for Mandrakk and Nil Monitors, they arent actually that much more powerful than regular characters. Certainly not "infinity" times greater or "materially transcendent." Utter nonsense.

>No it's not.

Lol k.

Green Lanterns shouldnt be able to affect a Nil Monitor, but they can. Nothing about "the plot" changes this material fact. Plus the Miracle Machine was created by people who should be transcended by nil monitors, so thats another anti-feat.

Whew, things are not looking good for this "Nil Monitors are greater than everyone by multiple infinities" argument. Anti feat after anti-feat.

@deagonx: "fanon." LOL don't tell me you're that same guy I got into a 2 day debate with on reddit.

@xearesay: Yep I'm that guy. I've been smacking you around over multiple battleboards LOL.

Incorrect. It is stated in the comics and also by the author. Mandrakk is directly cited as something even more powerful than a Platonic Concept and far worse than what Darkseid had become. At that exact moment in the comic, Darkseid took over the entire Multiverse and was one with it.

>Incorrect. It is stated in the comics and also by the author. Mandrakk is directly cited as something even more powerful than a Platonic Concept and far worse than what Darkseid had become. At that exact moment in the comic, Darkseid took over the entire Multiverse and was one with it.

None of that references the theory of forms, and only vaguely references platonism, Michael. Platonic forms have been references as early as the Lucifer comics, but the existence of abstract objects or living ideas isnt confirmation of a "shadow reality" and "true reality."

This is headcanon that you have created, and its deplorable that you would disrespect the authors who worked so hard to create these stories for you by putting words in their mouths.

@deagonx: You didn't win that debate. Getting the last comment doesn't mean you had the better arguments. You lied, cut apart information, and played stupid as a way to drag out the discussion.

I gave you this scan stating "The New Gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a kind of platonic, archetypal world."

You typed "living ideas" verbatim into your search engine as a way to say "ItS nOt ThE tHeOrY oF fOrMs." You literally played dumb. It's obvious the scan is trying to communicate that the New gods represent ideas and come from a platonic archetypal world which is located beyond the Orrery. Playing stupid isn't smacking people in debates buddy.

You even tried to deny that the Overvoid was a Yahweh type god figure even though Grant Morrison has stated “So I thought of the page as God” while going into his thought process when creating Final crisis.

Anyone who has a functioning brain and enough time to read the thread knows you got cornered halfway throughout the discussion and started distorting information as a way to drag out the debate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/f4para/jean_grey_vs_cosmic_armor_superman/fhw40fe/?context=8&depth=9

>You didn't win that debate. Getting the last comment doesn't mean you had the better arguments. You lied, cut apart information, and played stupid as a way to drag out the discussion

LOL whatever helps you sleep at night. You reduced yourself to petty insults because you couldn't prove your baseless claims.

>I gave you this scan stating "The New Gods are incredibly powerful living ideas from a kind of platonic, archetypal world."

Yep, and then you spun your fan theory that DC is based on Theory of Forms based on this incredibly flimsy evidence and presented it as fact. Not fact, no evidence, just your headcanon.

>You even tried to deny that the Overvoid was a Yahweh type god figure

Nope, never did that, I said he wasn't omnipotent. You said he was and your only evidence for this was Grant referring to him as God. God doesnt mean omnipotent, terrible, no evidence theory. Now youre just plainly twisting my words because you're incapable of putting together a coherent argument for this claim.

>Anyone who has a functioning brain and enough time to read the thread knows you got cornered half through the debate and started distorting information as a way to drag out the argument.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm happy to keep dunking on you though if you want to make more silly baseless claims about a cosmology you clearly know nothing about LOL.

@xearesay: That user forgot that The Spectre and The Radiant were incapable of undoing what Darkseid had done to the Multiverse. Kane forced Crispus to remake Creation in Final Crisis Revelations. Two beings who can undo and reforge Creation were immobilized by Darkseid and not allowed to leave Earth.

Metron then says Mandrakk is far worse than Darkseid at this very same moment.

Mandrakk stomps, this is a horrible match-up.

The universes of DC are contained in Earth 33, the representation of the real world. One level of Shadow Reality confirmed. That Earth-33 is part of another hierarchy, a truer area above it. A confirmed second Shadow Reality.

DC is a triple Meta with two layers of Platonic Structure before we even arrive at Nil. We don't need to debate this further. The scans confirm it, the author confirmed it and the guidebook confirmed it. Your fan interpretation on that subject is noted and respected.

@sleepygypsy: Well that's largely because he believes the sphere of gods is a 3D space because it looks 3D despite it being referenced as a platonic archetypal world filled with beings who represent living ideas... Let that sink in for a moment.

@sleepygypsy:

>One level of Shadow Reality confirmed. That Earth-33 is part of another hierarchy, a truer area above it. A confirmed second Shadow Reality.

Irrelevant, as proven time and time again. Superman, a character of one of Earth-33's "fictions" was able to affect a piece of the Overvoid by punching out World Forger. Levels of fiction are equalized for fights anyways. Otherwise Mike Tyson beats CAS since Mike Tyson is "real" and CAS is merely fiction to him.

>DC is a triple Meta with two layers of Platonic Structure before we even arrive at Nil.

Sure, and your fan interpretation of what that means for battles is noted, but unproven. Nil Monitors have repeatedly fought and lost characters they should be 3 meta layers above, meaning that these layers are not indicative of a power gap the magnitude you seem to have dedicated your life to saying it does.

@xearesay:
>Well that's largely because he believes the sphere of gods is a 3D space because it looks 3D despite it being referenced as a platonic archetypal world filled with beings who represent living ideas

Or because 3D characters go there repeatedly and lay cans of whoop ass on beings from "Platonic Archetypal" worlds lmao. But this fact is so devastating to you that you just throw your hands up in outrage and say "so absurd!" because you can't fabricate evidence to prove it wrong.

It seems you don't understand how the Orrery functions. Earth-33 gives way to everything else, it doesn't lay above it. The ideas of humans on Earth - 33 make everything else, including the structure that lays above Earth - 33. Your Tyson metaphor is nonsensical and invalid. Nil Monitors never fought anyone in the history of DC Comics. The only confrontation ever seen by one is when Mandrakk ended one of them on a whim.

The inhabitants of Earth - 33 made the Overvoid a reality. You need to research the theory of the Hyperloop. This isn't a hard concept to grasp. The grandson made the grandfather, the fans of the author wrote the author into existence for the fans to later read his stories. If you cannot understand this very basic Philosophical Theory 101, often taught to first year students, then you shouldn't continue with this debate.

>Nil Monitors never fought anyone in the history of DC Comics.

Categorically untrue. Rox Ogama Mandrakk fought and lost to multiple people. The children of Perpetua are also Nil Monitors having been made from pieces of the Overvoid, and have repeatedly fought and lost to regular "fictional" characters.

>The inhabitants of Earth - 33 made the Overvoid a reality.

If your scan is supposed to be evidence of that, it doesn't say that at all. It says their ideas become worlds in the Orrery, which is several layers below Overvoid. I've never seen anyone state that Overvoid was created by Earth-33 inhabitants.

>If you cannot understand this very basic Philosophical Theory 101, often taught to first year students, then you shouldn't continue with this debate.

Lol. What a childish insult. If you cannot prove your position, you shouldn't continue this debate. "If you understood philosophy you'd agree!" is not an argument nor is it evidence. And given that you took to Reddit an hour ago to ask Physicists of all people to settle this debate for you, clearly you dont actually understand philosophy that well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskPhysics/comments/f62jhu/help_me_with_a_comic_debate_i_am_having_if_a/

Molecule Man

@deagonx:

But this fact is so devastating to you that you just throw your hands up in outrage and say "so absurd!" because you can't fabricate evidence to prove it wrong.

What are you talking about? You literally dipped from the thread and deleted your account.

There is different ways to reach different realms in the sphere of gods.

For the News gods it's boomtubes.

For the skyland pantheons its shrines and temples.

Olympus for example has Mount Olympus.

Your logic is literally "people can be teleported there so it's a 3D space." I hope you realize how absurd that is.

Mandrakk uses his fate manipulation to change Molecule Man. Good luck changing the molecules in a concept Owen.

According to you, the comic text doesn't matter, just the visuals drawn. If this topic were about Marvel, you would be saying this is a 3D fight and there is no evidence to support otherwise, merely because the illustrators drew it on a comic page. This is a poor argument.

There are no physical anythings at Limbo and Nil lays beyond it. You asked for evidence of no physical matter there and you've disregarded 7 scans in the span of just one comic book that stated it clearly for you. I do not take your comments here seriously, you are baiting. You've been shown these scans many times and the fact that you claim they don't exist is laughable at this point.

Gallery

It couldn't be more clear. Nothing Material there. 7 scans in total that Daegonx2 claims don't exist in this comic.

@xearesay:

>Your logic is literally "people can be teleported there"

If your "higher level of being" is nullified the moment you exist as the same plane as someone, you aren't actually more powerful than them lol. Besides that scan of Orion is comical. Im not arguing the New Gods arent bigger, being bigger doesnt make you more than 3D. Thats terrible logic.

@deagonx: It's not just being bigger. They're conceptually beyond the Orrery.

Also love the logic that there is no shadow and true reality relationship when THE ENTIRE ORRERY WAS A "SHADOW" TO THE "TRUE FORM DARKSEID." How can you be this dense?