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#1 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules

  • All have there normal wands
  • No prior knowledge or prep
  • Victory by Death of all opposing combatants

Location

  • The Department of Mysteries Veil Room

Note: Malfoy is Lucius not Draco.

Note: The Death Eaters are members of Voldemort's inner circle not fodder Death Eaters from Deathly Hallows.

Round 1: Characters mentioned

Round 2: Team 2 gets Kingsley

Round 3: Team 2 gets Kingsley and Sirius but Team 1 gets five more members of Voldemort's inner circle.

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#3 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucius wouldn't last long 1 on 1 against any of team 2. Can't remember how strong Yaxely was. Crouch is very capable and imo underrated, but he isn't matching anyone either. Rowle is kind of a wild card. If he fights like he did in the astronomy tower he has just as much chance of killing his own teammates as he does of team 2. Not sure how to quantify 6 generic death eaters. If there're anything like the 4 snatchers Bellatrix fodderized then they probably won't matter.

Overall I'd say quality beats quantity in this case. Team 2 wins.

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#5 Posted by decaf_wizard (17002 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, depends what sort of Death Eaters we are talking

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#6 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#7 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

Lucius wouldn't last long 1 on 1 against any of team 2.

He gave Lupin a fight.

Can't remember how strong Yaxely was.

Yaxley is inconsistent. He managed to stalemate Flitwick who beat Dolohov but he lost to George Weasley and Lee Jordan.

Crouch is very capable and imo underrated, but he isn't matching anyone either.

By dueling feats, statements and magical ability he is above Malfoy who gave Lupin a fight.

Rowle is kind of a wild card. If he fights like he did in the astronomy tower he has just as much chance of killing his own teammates as he does of team 2.

Only reason Rowle caused such a mess was because in that batte he was fighting in a narrow corridor allowing is destructive magic to maximize damage. Here he is in a much more open environment.

Not sure how to quantify 6 generic death eaters. If there're anything like the 4 snatchers Bellatrix fodderized then they probably won't matter.

They're not. They're members of Voldemort's inner circle who trained in the dark arts. I mention in the op that they're not the fodder from Deathly Hallows but rather the Death Eaters from Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince who gave Order members a fight.

Overall I'd say quality beats quantity in this case. Team 2 wins.

Fair enough.

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#8 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, depends what sort of Death Eaters we are talking

I mention in the op that they are members of Voldemort's inner circle from Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince who were giving Order members a fight.

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#9 Posted by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Sorry I have bad habit of not reading the whole op.

I'm actually not sure now of round 1. I'm starting to think 6 inner circle Death Eaters is enough to turn this in team 1's favor.

Kingsley can take at least 2 of the Death Eaters, but there's probably still enough pressure from the numbers to keep this in team ones favor.

I think they win with Sirius though.

There that's my revised opinion.

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#10 Posted by Vitisid (1199 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2, I'd say.

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#11 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (2461 posts) - - Show Bio

Bellatrix, Dolohov, or Snape can take out the 6 fodder death eaters by themselves. So one of them takes on the 6 death eaters. And than 3 take of the rest of the death eaters and win with low-mid difficulty.

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Lupin>Lucius+Yaxely

Lupin>Harry>Hermione=George+Lee Jordan=Two Death Eaters=Yaxely=Lucius

Snape>Crouch Junior+Rowle

Snape>McGonagall=Kingsley>Mad Eye=Crouch Junior>Tonks=Rowle

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Dolohov+Bellatrix

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Bellatrix+Dolohov>Kingsley+Lupin=Five High Tier Death Eaters

Team 2 narrowly based off the above scaling.

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#13 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Bellatrix, Dolohov, or Snape can take out the 6 fodder death eaters by themselves. So one of them takes on the 6 death eaters. And than 3 take of the rest of the death eaters and win with low-mid difficulty.

The six Death Eaters are high tiers though. These are the guys who were giving order members good fights two on one or even one on one. Order members who are only slightly worse than Bellatrix, Dolohov and Snape. Not saying it's implausible just giving my opinion.

:]

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#14 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@emmafrostxmen said:

Bellatrix, Dolohov, or Snape can take out the 6 fodder death eaters by themselves.

These aren't the fodder Death Eaters from Deathly Hallows. They're the members of Voldemort's inner circle from Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince who could give Order members a fight one on one. The most the Order members could do was fight two at a time. Here is evidence of the Order members struggling with Death Eaters.

"Through watering eyes he saw Sirius dueling with a Death Eater some ten feet away."

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"Sirius and his Death Eater lurched past, duelling so fiercely that their wands were blurs."

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"Kingsley was fighting two at once."

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"Kingsley swayed across his field of vision, battling with the pockmarked and no longer masked Rookwood."

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

"Professor McGonagall and Lupin, each of whom was battling a separate Death Eater."

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince page 558

So one of them takes on the 6 death Eaters.

Yeah from what I showed in the quotes above that is not going to happen.

And than 3 take of the rest of the death eaters and win with low-mid difficulty.

Again that isn't going to happen because if 1 of them tries to solo 6 Death Eaters they'll die in seconds.

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#15 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (2461 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: Lol, bellatrix And Snape go against the six death eaters and obliterate them in less than a minute together while dolohov and Lupin hold off the others. When Bella and Snape are done with their fight they all gang up on the ones still standing and win.

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#16 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: Lol, bellatrix And Snape go against the six death eaters and obliterate them in less than a minute together while dolohov and Lupin hold off the others. When Bella and Snape are done with their fight they all gang up on the ones still standing and win.

Please read the long list of quotes I gave you. That isn't happening.

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#17 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@emmafrostxmen said:

Bellatrix, Dolohov, or Snape can take out the 6 fodder death eaters by themselves. So one of them takes on the 6 death eaters. And than 3 take of the rest of the death eaters and win with low-mid difficulty.

The six Death Eaters are high tiers though. These are the guys who were giving order members good fights two on one or even one on one. Order members who are only slightly worse than Bellatrix, Dolohov and Snape. Not saying it's implausible just giving my opinion.

:]

It is. You're being to kind. Who do you think would win by the way?

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#18 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: Lol, bellatrix And Snape go against the six death eaters and obliterate them in less than a minute together while dolohov and Lupin hold off the others. When Bella and Snape are done with their fight they all gang up on the ones still standing and win.

Team 2 takes this but no team of two on the second the team is winning against the six [If these were Deathly Hallows fodder I'd agree but these are high tiers capable of fighting Order members]

Since you know I'm one of those guys who can't be bothered typing out long stuff I'll just copy out the previous scaling for my above post.

Lupin>Lucius+Yaxely

Lupin>Harry>Hermione=George+Lee Jordan=Two Death Eaters=Yaxely=Lucius

Snape>Crouch Junior+Rowle

Snape>McGonagall=Kingsley>Mad Eye=Crouch Junior>Tonks=Rowle

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Dolohov+Bellatrix

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Bellatrix+Dolohov>Kingsley+Lupin=Five High Tier Death Eaters

Team 2 narrowly based off the above scaling.

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#19 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77 said:
@emmafrostxmen said:

Bellatrix, Dolohov, or Snape can take out the 6 fodder death eaters by themselves. So one of them takes on the 6 death eaters. And than 3 take of the rest of the death eaters and win with low-mid difficulty.

The six Death Eaters are high tiers though. These are the guys who were giving order members good fights two on one or even one on one. Order members who are only slightly worse than Bellatrix, Dolohov and Snape. Not saying it's implausible just giving my opinion.

:]

It is. You're being to kind. Who do you think would win by the way?

Lupin>Lucius+Yaxely

Lupin>Harry>Hermione=George+Lee Jordan=Two Death Eaters=Yaxely=Lucius

Snape>Crouch Junior+Rowle

Snape>McGonagall=Kingsley>Mad Eye=Crouch Junior>Tonks=Rowle

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Dolohov+Bellatrix

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Bellatrix+Dolohov>Kingsley+Lupin=Five High Tier Death Eaters

Team 2 narrowly based off the above scaling.

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#20 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
@emmafrostxmen said:

@riddlerfan77: Lol, bellatrix And Snape go against the six death eaters and obliterate them in less than a minute together while dolohov and Lupin hold off the others. When Bella and Snape are done with their fight they all gang up on the ones still standing and win.

Team 2 takes this but no team of two on the second the team is winning against the six [If these were Deathly Hallows fodder I'd agree but these are high tiers capable of fighting Order members]

Exactly.

Since you know I'm one of those guys who can't be bothered typing out long stuff I'll just copy out the previous scaling for my above post.

Lupin>Lucius+Yaxely

I agree.

Lupin>Harry>Hermione=George+Lee Jordan=Two Death Eaters=Yaxely=Lucius

For the most part this scaling is fine besides Yaxley=Lucius.

Snape>Crouch Junior+Rowle

Agreed.

Snape>McGonagall=Kingsley>Mad Eye=Crouch Junior>Tonks=Rowle

This scaling is fine besides Crouch Jr>Tonks

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Dolohov+Bellatrix

Agreed.

6 High Tier Death Eaters>Bellatrix+Dolohov>Kingsley+Lupin=Five High Tier Death Eaters

Five high tier Death Eaters>Kingsley+Lupin>4 high tier Death Eaters

Team 2 narrowly based off the above scaling.

Okay.

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#21 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (2461 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: I don’t agree I think Bella can easily take 3 high tier death eaters and so can Snape because Bella=Snape(more or less). And Lupin And dolohov just have to use sheiks charms until Bella and Snape are done. I see my scenario working but Lupin will likely die.

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#22 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: I don’t agree I think Bella can easily take 3 high tier death eaters and so can Snape because Bella=Snape(more or less).

I don't agree. One random Death Eater gave Sirius a fight and Sirius>Bellatrix.

And Lupin And dolohov just have to use sheiks charms until Bella and Snape are done. I see my scenario working but Lupin will likely die.

This doesn't work. You can't just spam shield charms to fight. Duels require quick reactions and you can only block a few spells before going down. If they spam Shield charms they die in seconds and Bella and Snape can't help.

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#23 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: I don’t agree I think Bella can easily take 3 high tier death eaters and so can Snape because Bella=Snape(more or less). And Lupin And dolohov just have to use sheiks charms until Bella and Snape are done. I see my scenario working but Lupin will likely die.

Did you even read the quotes I posted as to why Bella can't fight 3 high tier Death Eaters?

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77: I don’t agree I think Bella can easily take 3 high tier death eaters and so can Snape because Bella=Snape(more or less). And Lupin And dolohov just have to use sheiks charms until Bella and Snape are done. I see my scenario working but Lupin will likely die.

Kingsley and Lupin a duo barely inferior to Snape/Bellatrix are roughly worth four Death Eaters together so I'd say that it won't happen but I can see where you're coming from. Regardless or not of whether a duo on this team can solo six Death Eaters, they still win regardless.

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#25 Posted by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Team 2 with casualties. They are heavily outnumbered,but having Bellatrix helps a ton. She casually stomped 5 snatchers, who I don't think are much below regular death eaters,if at all. Dolohov can also take on at least 2 - 3 mooks at once, and Snape and Lupin could beat at least 1 at once. They might go down though,especially as Bellatrix and Dolohov are not known for their great team work.

R2: Easier win for team 2. Kingsley is Dolohov level. They might even win without casualties.

R3: Same as round 1. Kingsley + Sirius are roughly equal to 5 death eaters, maybe slightly better.

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#26 Posted by FromBeyond (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Team 2 with mid-high difficulty. Either Bellatrix or Dolohov can solo Malfoy, Yaxley and Rowle, as the last 3 have pretty much no feats apart from getting their arses handed to them. The other three members of team 2 just need to keep the rest of team 1 at a stalemate until this happens. At this point, T1 will take the victory.

Round 2: Even easier win for Team 2. Although Kingsley is below Bellatrix and Dolohov in power, he's still a valuable asset.

Round 3: Very very hard round, casualties on both sides. For me team 2 still have the slight advantage simply because Malfoy, Yaxley and Rowle are literally fodder here in comparison to the likes of Bellatrix and Dolohov.

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#27 Posted by FromBeyond (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:

R1: Team 2 with casualties. They are heavily outnumbered,but having Bellatrix helps a ton. She casually stomped 5 snatchers, who I don't think are much below regular death eaters,if at all. Dolohov can also take on at least 2 - 3 mooks at once, and Snape and Lupin could beat at least 1 at once. They might go down though,especially as Bellatrix and Dolohov are not known for their great team work.

R2: Easier win for team 2. Kingsley is Dolohov level. They might even win without casualties.

R3: Same as round 1. Kingsley + Sirius are roughly equal to 5 death eaters, maybe slightly better.

I know this isn't quite on topic, but im interested to see your reasoning behind this statement. Bellatrix was able to make short work of kingsley in the OOTP, and Dolohov is quite arguably superior to both with his combat feats. He beat Moody, fought well against Sirius, and was able to simultaneously duel Harry, Ron and Hermione.
I agree with your outcome for round 2, just wondering what puts Kingsley at Dolohov's level.

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#28 Edited by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@frombeyond:

Bellatrix was able to make short work of kingsley in the OOTP

Because outside of the big three (Dumbledore, Voldie, Grindelwalk), she is by far the most skilled duelist we have ever seen in the HP series.

and Dolohov is quite arguably superior to both with his combat feats.

Definitely not the case.

He beat Moody,

Who was way past his prime and didn't have any notable feats in the books.

fought well against Sirius,

Their duel was really brief, and Bellatrix was the one who actually took out Sirius.

and was able to simultaneously duel Harry, Ron and Hermione.

Again, this battle was extremely brief, and Rowle was there too. Harry was also invisible during it so it wasn't that fair. By which I am not saying Dolohov is some noob, but he is not comparable to a witch who rofl stomped 5 adult wizards in open battle.

So Bellatrix stomping Kingsley means very little. She is just on another level. She is the only one outside of Voldemort who can block spells from Dumbledore, while fleeing no less, and has dueling feats that put her above everyone else named in the thread by far.

Looking at Kingsley feats, he canonically defeated two "inner circle" death eaters at once. He also got jumped by several death eaters, at least 3 and possibly a lot more, and fought his way out of that, with no mention of him being injured at all. That in my mind puts him a bit above Dolohov, who has some great feats of his own but nothing quite that impressive.

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#29 Posted by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3: Very very hard round, casualties on both sides. For me team 2 still have the slight advantage simply because Malfoy, Yaxley and Rowle are literally fodder here in comparison to the likes of Bellatrix and Dolohov.

I don't think Yaxley is on the level of anyone of team 2, but he also isn't exactly fodder. He stalemated with Flitwick, who is a former dueling champ and defeated Dolohov, which is not something I see Malfoy do for example.

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#30 Posted by FromBeyond (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:

@frombeyond:

Bellatrix was able to make short work of kingsley in the OOTP

Because outside of the big three (Dumbledore, Voldie, Grindelwalk), she is by far the most skilled duelist we have ever seen in the HP series.

and Dolohov is quite arguably superior to both with his combat feats.

Definitely not the case.

He beat Moody,

Who was way past his prime and didn't have any notable feats in the books.

fought well against Sirius,

Their duel was really brief, and Bellatrix was the one who actually took out Sirius.

and was able to simultaneously duel Harry, Ron and Hermione.

Again, this battle was extremely brief, and Rowle was there too. Harry was also invisible during it so it wasn't that fair. By which I am not saying Dolohov is some noob, but he is not comparable to a witch who rofl stomped 5 adult wizards in open battle.

So Bellatrix stomping Kingsley means very little. She is just on another level. She is the only one outside of Voldemort who can block spells from Dumbledore, while fleeing no less, and has dueling feats that put her above everyone else named in the thread by far.

Looking at Kingsley feats, he canonically defeated two "inner circle" death eaters at once. He also got jumped by several death eaters, at least 3 and possibly a lot more, and fought his way out of that, with no mention of him being injured at all. That in my mind puts him a bit above Dolohov, who has some great feats of his own but nothing quite that impressive.

Your reasoning as to why Bellatrix is superior to Dolohov is very logical, and I can't fault any of the points you made there (apart from that she only beat Sirius because he got cocky ;p).
However as for Kinglsey, saying he managed to escape a group of Death Eaters doesn't really mean much at all. Harry escaped big groups of Death Eaters all the time, often fighting his way out. That doesn't put him anywhere near Bellatrix or Dolohov.

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#31 Edited by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@frombeyond:

apart from that she only beat Sirius because he got cocky ;p

People tend to make that point often, but I don't agree with that. He made one taunt towards her, but he didn't exactly lower his wand and left an opening. The way the book describes it, she just found a moment to strike and it happened to be after he said that. It doesn't take away from her skill imo. Also, one thing people seem to forget is that none of the death eaters, including her, were fresh at the point when the order arrived, meaning they had to fight them (slightly) fatigued. That is why Dolohov's feat of nearly beating Sirius at that point is quite impressive to me, as he specifically is stated to have been wounded/bleeding as well.

Harry escaped big groups of Death Eaters all the time, often fighting his way out.

Name an example of when he was cornered, alone, and fought his way out against multiple death eaters.

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#32 Posted by FromBeyond (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: Deathly Hallows, he escaped from the Death Eater aerial ambush. Hagrid did next to nothing, it was Harry that saved them from the group of Death eaters. Which bit are you referring to by the way when you said Kingsley was jumped by several death eaters?

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#33 Posted by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: Deathly Hallows, he escaped from the Death Eater aerial ambush. Hagrid did next to nothing, it was Harry that saved them from the group of Death eaters.

That was a broom chase, he didn't duel his way out of that.

Which bit are you referring to by the way when you said Kingsley was jumped by several death eaters?

Jordan Lee describes the event on Potterwatch in DH.

Exactly! You’ve got to give them credit, it makes sense. It was only people who were serious about standing up to him like Dumbledore, who ever dared use it. Now they’ve put a Taboo on it, anyone who says it is trackable, quick and easy way to find they Order members! They nearly got Kingsley.”

“You’re kidding?”

“Yeah, a bunch of Death Eaters cornered him, Bill said, but he fought his way out. He’s on the run now, just like us.”

Harry has never fought his way out of a situation like that, especially not singlehandly.

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#34 Posted by FromBeyond (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:

Jordan Lee describes the event on Potterwatch in DH.

Exactly! You’ve got to give them credit, it makes sense. It was only people who were serious about standing up to him like Dumbledore, who ever dared use it. Now they’ve put a Taboo on it, anyone who says it is trackable, quick and easy way to find they Order members! They nearly got Kingsley.”

“You’re kidding?”

“Yeah, a bunch of Death Eaters cornered him, Bill said, but he fought his way out. He’s on the run now, just like us.”

See the problem here is we don't know the actual details of that encounter. "Fought his way out" could mean holding them off for a few moments before apparating away. My point is we don't have any reliable feats to put Kinglsey on Dolohov's level. Don't forget, Dolohov killed Lupin, who himself was a very accomplished duelist.

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#35 Edited by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@frombeyond:

See the problem here is we don't know the actual details of that encounter.

That's true.

"Fought his way out" could mean holding them off for a few moments before apparating away.

YMMV but that is not how I interpret that description. Fighting a way out to me means he had to battle several death eaters at once. And Dolohov has no feat of battling more than 1 adult wizard.

My point is we don't have any reliable feats to put Kinglsey on Dolohov's level.

I feel that the above description + him beating 2 death eaters at once + him hanging with Voldie in a team is roughly equal to (and arguably above) Dolohov beating a rusty Moody, hanging with the main trio and potentially beating Sirius.

Don't forget, Dolohov killed Lupin, who himself was a very accomplished duelist.

This happened completely "off-panel" and thus, while usable as a reference, is not any different from me using the Kingsley cornered feat.

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#36 Edited by FromBeyond (1046 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:

I feel that the above description + him beating 2 death eaters at once + him hanging with Voldie in a team is roughly equal to (and arguably above) Dolohov beating a rusty Moody, hanging with the main trio and potentially beating Sirius.

If by "hanging with Voldie" you mean getting absolutely STOMPED by Voldie, yes I agree, he fared very well against Voldie. Whilst I can't quote exactly because I dont have the book to hand right now, I seem to remember that duel ending with the team writhing in agony in the air or something ridiculous, as they got blasted away by voldemort.

Dolohov killed Lupin, who himself was a very accomplished duelist.

This happened completely "off-panel" and thus, while usable as a reference, is not any different from me using the Kingsley cornered feat.

Alright true, but if we then consider both feats to be somewhat unreliable, that leaves Kingsley with very little to go off. Personally, I don't quite see it, but with some of the thing said in the books, I don't think your opinion is completely unfounded, so fair play.

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#37 Edited by WardedMan7050 (69 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Thanks for tagging me. I love Harry Potter threads but since im not on this forum all the time I often miss them. Much appreciated.

Round 1: I'm going to go against the crowd and say Team 1 wins. Here is my logic behind it.

Bellatrix being the best of team 2 is roughly equal to 2.5 of any combination of the above Death Eaters. The reason being is she was equal to Hermione, Ginny, Luna and would arguably have won had the duel continued. However i'm going to assume that these Death Eaters are better then Ginny or Luna so I think 2.5 is a good number.

For those saying she fought 4 snatchers no problem keep in mind that none of them even fought back or even fired a spell back at her. And we have no idea of their skill. For all we know they can't even do a shield charm like 90 % of ministry employees and therefore even Ginny and Luna are above them. Also keep in mind that the OP stated that these are the best Death Eaters not fodder.

So I think 2.5 is a good number for Bellatrix.

Snape is equal to roughly 2 of these Death Eaters.

Dolohov is equal to roughly 2 of these Death Eaters. And yes i know Dolohov is probably slightly better then Snape at dueling but it doesn't matter if you want to get technical and say he is equal to 2.25 Death Eaters it doesn't matter.

Lupin being the weakest of team 2 is equal to roughly 1.5 Death Eaters.

Now do the math 2.5+1.5+2+2= 8

So they can only take on 8 of these Death Eaters but since there are ten they get overwhelmed.

Now round 2. Using the same logic from round 1 Kingsley is equal to 2 of the above Death Eaters. So now its even although i would say Team 2 takes a slight to moderate majority since they have overcome their numbers disadvantage and now have a enormous skill advantage.

Round 3. 15 Death Eaters vs. now with Sirius they can take on 12 Death Eaters since Sirius is equal to 2 of the above Death Eaters (roughly) so they again should get overwhelmed.

Now i'm not saying Team 2 loses every round in Rounds 1 and 3. Duels don't work like that. Upsets happen. But I think they should lose a majority.

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#38 Edited by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@frombeyond:

If by "hanging with Voldie" you mean getting absolutely STOMPED by Voldie, yes I agree, he fared very well against Voldie.

Did you read the same book as I did? The fight between Voldie and the trio lasted for longer than a lot of other fights in the series. He is already described as battling them before we cut to Bellatrix fighting the three girls, Molly jumping in, then they duel a bit, Molly kills her, and then Voldemort is so overcome with rage he unleashes a shock wave and blasts his opponents away. That is clearly a sound defeat, but an absolute stomp implies that they couldn't hold him off in the slightest. They were stalemating with him for quite a bit, and Voldie seeing his most loyal lieutenant die before his eyes is a clear edge case that gave him an advantage to finish the fight. You are twisting words, like saying that Harry battled his way out of being cornered by death eaters while he clearly wasn't. Don't do that, it doesn't do your argument any favors.

Alright true, but if we then consider both feats to be somewhat unreliable, that leaves Kingsley with very little to go off.

Same can be said for Dolohov. We have to work with what we have. Unfortunately, Rowling never really described duels in a lot of details, and she never cared that much for power levels and feats, much to my personal dismay

Personally, I don't quite see it, but with some of the thing said in the books, I don't think your opinion is completely unfounded, so fair play.

Alright.

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#39 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:

R1: Team 2 with casualties.

They are heavily outnumbered,but having Bellatrix helps a ton. She casually stomped 5 snatchers, who I don't think are much below regular death eaters,if at all.

Snatchers are way below members of Voldemort's inner circle. One Death Eater could give Sirius a fight and Sirius>Bellatrix. Also it was 4 Snatchers and none of them had there wands out. This is one of the most overrated feats ever.

Dolohov can also take on at least 2 - 3 mooks at once, and Snape and Lupin could beat at least 1 at once. They might go down though,especially as Bellatrix and Dolohov are not known for their great team work.

Dolohov can take out 2 as can Bellatrix.

R2: Easier win for team 2. Kingsley is Dolohov level. They might even win without casualties.

Kingsley is not Dolohov level. Dolohov is a tier 8 (based off feats) and Kingsley is a tier 7 (based off feats). I'd argue Lupin could take Kingsley.

R3: Same as round 1. Kingsley + Sirius are roughly equal to 5 death eaters, maybe slightly better.

3 Death Eaters>Sirius>Kingsley>Two Death Eaters.

Neither of them can take 3 as Kingsley took a whole battle to defeat 2 and Sirius struggled with 1.

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#40 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: Dolohov>Bellatrix via feats and scaling.

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#41 Posted by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Edited by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:
@riddlerfan77 said:

@cpt_nice: Dolohov>Bellatrix via feats and scaling.

Not remotely the case.

I've made my case for this debate before, and I've made it convincingly so I'll let you state why you think Bellatrix wins first [Let's see whether or not it's a direct mirror to the other arguments I've faced which were all the exact same].

"Grabs minstrels ready for the chaos known as debating too ensue"

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#43 Posted by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

First off, It is bad form to debate in your own threads. You are supposed to be neutral. But I will humor you.

Snatchers are way below members of Voldemort's inner circle.

Based on?

Sirius>Bellatrix.

Just, lol. That is why she killed him?

Also it was 4 Snatchers

True, I misremembered. She already took out the fifth guy before the battle even started

and none of them had there wands out.

Incorrect.

There was a roar of anger from his fellows. Scabior drew his wand.“What d’you think you’re playing at, woman?”

Scabior was the only one in Harry's line of sight at that point and he is explicitly stated to draw his wand, so his mates did the same thing.

Dolohov can take out 2 as can Bellatrix.

Bellatrix has better feats than Dolohov, so she can take out more. The number is debatable. Also, if you have clear numbers in mind, why did you make this thread? Again, this is bad form on CV and is stated in the battle forum rules.

Dolohov is a tier 8 (based off feats) and Kingsley is a tier 7 (based off feats).

Terms made up by you, and with no weight.

I'd argue Lupin could take Kingsley.

Right.

Neither of them can take 3 as Kingsley took a whole battle to defeat 2 and Sirius struggled with 1.

Taking on =/= beating. Kingsley beat 2 death eaters, as he battled two and went after Bellatrix after that. So he could at least stalemate with 3 for a while. Sirius is debatable, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could put up a fight against 2. Probably not win.

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#44 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Thanks for tagging me. I love Harry Potter threads but since im not on this forum all the time I often miss them. Much appreciated.

Your welcome.

Round 1: I'm going to go against the crowd and say Team 1 wins. Here is my logic behind it.

Bellatrix being the best of team 2 is roughly equal to 2.5 of any combination of the above Death Eaters.

This is all accurate except for her being Voldemort's best Death Eater. I'd argue otherwise but I have seen conivincing cases be made for this.

The reason being is she was equal to Hermione, Ginny, Luna and would arguably have won had the duel continued.

She was described as being equal to them so I think she could have won had the duel continued but based on this quote if the scenario played out 10 times she would win 5 times.

However i'm going to assume that these Death Eaters are better then Ginny or Luna so I think 2.5 is a good number.

Yes this accurate. Ginny dueled Amycus who is a random Death Eater but she couldn't contend with him even while amped by Felix Felicis. Luna is featless and based off statements is inferior to Ginny so Amycus=One Death Eater>Hermione>Ginny>Luna. Also note Hermione is already likely inferior to one Death Eater as well and in the duel against Bellatrix she was nerfed so she was arguably equal to Ginny at this point. Amycus=One Death Eater>Hermione>Nerfed Hermione=Ginny>Luna.

For those saying she fought 4 snatchers no problem keep in mind that none of them even fought back or even fired a spell back at her. And we have no idea of their skill. For all we know they can't even do a shield charm like 90 % of ministry employees and therefore even Ginny and Luna are above them. Also keep in mind that the OP stated that these are the best Death Eaters not fodder.

Finally someone who read the op. Also Ron escaped from a group of Snatchers solo (granted he only jinxed one of them) so based off this it is fair to say they're fodder.

So I think 2.5 is a good number for Bellatrix.

I agree.

Snape is equal to roughly 2 of these Death Eaters.

I disagree. Snape duelled Minerva and defended against all her spells with ease never launching a single curse in return and defending in Harry Potter is hard. So Snape>Minerva who by scaling is above or equal to Kingsley who beat two Death Eaters.

So Snape>Minerva>Kingsley>Two Death Eaters.

By looking at this scaling we can safely say Snape is on par with 2.5.

Dolohov is equal to roughly 2 of these Death Eaters. And yes I know Dolohov is probably slightly better then Snape at dueling but it doesn't matter if you want to get technical and say he is equal to 2.25 Death Eaters it doesn't matter.

Dolohov does not equal two. He is by feats equal to Bella and Snape>Bella=Dolohov.

This is just my opinion though but it is based off logic.

Lupin being the weakest of team 2 is equal to roughly 1.5 Death Eaters.

There is a case that can be made for Lupin>Kingsley and Kingsley beat 2 Death Eaters so Lupin is roughly equal to 2.

Now do the math 2.5+1.5+2+2= 8

I disagree. I think you lowballed Snape and Dolohov to much. 2.5+2.5+2.5+2.25=9.75

I made this thread to be close. I didn't make this thread for a team to be 2 Death Eaters short.

So they can only take on 8 of these Death Eaters but since there are ten they get overwhelmed.

They are just barely short and I can see an arguement being made for team 2.

Now round 2. Using the same logic from round 1 Kingsley is equal to 2 of the above Death Eaters. So now its even although i would say Team 2 takes a slight to moderate majority since they have overcome their numbers disadvantage and now have a enormous skill advantage.

This is fair.

Round 3. 15 Death Eaters vs. now with Sirius they can take on 12 Death Eaters since Sirius is equal to 2 of the above Death Eaters (roughly) so they again should get overwhelmed.

Again this is fair but Sirius>Bellatrix=Dolohov so he is equal to 2.5 like Bella and Dolohov not 2.

Now i'm not saying Team 2 loses every round in Rounds 1 and 3. Duels don't work like that. Upsets happen. But I think they should lose a majority.

Again this is fair.

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#45 Edited by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77:

You mean that little >, <, = thing above? Stopped reading halfway through. This isn't math class. Feats are looked at as an accumulation and in context, not as something in a vacuum. Otherwise you get weird situations. Flitwick couldn't beat Yaxley in their fight, but he defeated Dolohov. But Jordan Lee and George Weasley defeated Yaxley, so that puts them significantly above Dolohov. But Dolohov got defeated by Hermione, Harry and Ron, so that means George and Lee are significantly above the main trio, while Hermione has several feats to suggest she is better than either or even both of them. See where I am going with this?

Also, even looking at your flimsy math problem, you just make several statements without making an argument. Why is Harry above Hermione? Why is McGonagall equal to Kingsley? What are 6 high tier death eaters, when they all have different showings? Why would they be above Dolohov and Bellatrix?

I am up for a debate, but you are gonna have to use some actual passages from the book to strengthen your point, not baseless statements and some algebra.

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#46 Edited by WardedMan7050 (69 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Neither Snape nor Sirius are better then Bellatrix. There is no evidence for this.

She has the best combat record bar none of everyone except Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Voldemort and possibly Delphini Riddle if you include CC.

While i would totally agree Snape has a greater knowledge of magic, knows more spells, and is more versatile then Bellatrix he is not better then her at dueling.

A perfect example similar to this is Harry and Hermione. While i don't think anyone would question Hermione is a better witch then Harry, Harry would win against her in a duel. This was confirmed by J.K Rowling. So it is the same with Snape and Bellatrix. End of argument.

Sirius is also not better then Bellatrix. If he was he would have been owning the Death Eaters left, right, and center at the Battle of the Ministry of Magic and this wasn't the case.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

Not the argument I was talking about but ok.

@cpt_nice said:

@riddlerfan77:

You mean that little >, <, = thing above?

No I don't.

Stopped reading halfway through.

Good for you.

This isn't math class.

Those signs don't just apply to maths you know.

Feats are looked at as an accumulation and in context, not as something in a vacuum.

I don't understand you analogy here.

Otherwise you get weird situations.

Like the one mentioned below.

Flitwick couldn't beat Yaxley in their fight, but he defeated Dolohov.

Ironically talks about context and then misses it. We see a brief exchange on page and then nothing that occurs after. It's not quantifiable to say that Yaxely+Flitwick based off a two second exchange that takes up a line of the page.

But Jordan Lee and George Weasley defeated Yaxley, so that puts them significantly above Dolohov.

No it doesn't because nothing supports the theory that Yaxely>Dolohov.

But Dolohov got defeated by Hermione, Harry and Ron, so that means George and Lee significantly above the main trio, while Hermione has several feats to suggest she is better than either or even both of them.

Harry and Hermione on there own are superior to either never mind together and with help from Ron. Beating someone who's claim to fame is a two second one line exchange isn't impressive and does not put them above Dolohov.

See where I am going with this?

No I don't because the basis for this argument is flawed.

Also, even looking at your flimsy math problem, you just make several statements without making an argument.

Again I'd be happy to provide these arguments but you chose something that I wasn't referring too in my above post.

Why is Harry above Hermione?

Statements throughout the books and by the author herself.

Why McGonagall equal to Kingsley?

Scaling off their fight against Voldemort.

What are 6 high tier death eaters, when they all have different showings?

Because based off the average for high tiers they are better than them.

Why would they be above Dolohov and Bellatrix?

Based off scaling from Lupin and Kingsley a duo marginally below Bellatrix/Dolohov based off the fact that Antonin and Bellatrix have beaten a member of this duo each individually and each of them as fought and beat two high tiers simultaneously that should put them equal in between four/five death eaters and Dolohov/Bellatrix should be equal to about five based off that and below six.

I am up for a debate, but you are gonna have to use some actual passages from the book to strengthen your point, not baseless statements and some algebra.

I'll happily do it f you want, I didn't put quotes in my initial post because I didn't want to debate but you've got my attention. Posts may take a while due to me having to find quotes but sure I'll be happy too.

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#48 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice said:

@arkhamasylum3:

First off, It is bad form to debate in your own threads. You are supposed to be neutral. But I will humor you.

I'm not picking a side. Just stopping lowballing.

Snatchers are way below members of Voldemort's inner circle.

Based on?

Based on the fact Ron mangaed to outsmart a group of Snatchers and escape from them (effortlessly jinxing one of the Snatchers) I'd say they are fairly incompetent. Meanwhile one solo Death Eater gave Sirius a fight.

Sirius>Bellatrix.

Just, lol. That is why she killed him?

Sirius only lost to Bellatrix due to his overconfidence. He'd just spent months in his family's home and when he runs off to fight the Death Eaters guess who he meets. You guessed it a member of his family. By this point Sirius is fuming from being stuck in his house for months so when he meets a member of his family he lets out his anger by making her angry by laughing and mocking her. She then exploits this opening and uses it to kill him. So the Bellatrix>Sirius arguement is flawed at its core.

Now that we've got that out of the way I can bring up the fact that seen as we have no dueling feats to compare we have to compare in universe statements which Sirius trumps Bellatrix at. There was a reason why Sirius was considered Voldemort's number one Death Eater when he was framed. It is because people to belived Sirius to be more powerful than Bellatrix. Based on this I say Sirius>Bellatrix.

Also it was 4 Snatchers

True, I misremembered. She already took out the fifth guy before the battle even started

Thank you for being reasonable and admitting when you were wrong.

and none of them had there wands out.

Incorrect.

There was a roar of anger from his fellows. Scabior drew his wand.“What d’you think you’re playing at, woman?”

Scabior was the only one in Harry's line of sight at that point and he is explicitly stated to draw his wand, so his mates did the same thing.

I'll admit when I'm wrong and here I am. Based of what I said earlier though they are fodder so this matters little.

Dolohov can take out 2 as can Bellatrix.

Bellatrix has better feats than Dolohov, so she can take out more. The number is debatable. Also, if you have clear numbers in mind, why did you make this thread? Again, this is bad form on CV and is stated in the battle forum rules.

I made up numbers so it would be a fair match up. The numbers total up to roughly even if you count up. I did this because I wanted it to be fair and also so I didn't show bias as the op as the numbers are even. Also based off feats Bellatrix=Dolohov.

Dolohov is a tier 8 (based off feats) and Kingsley is a tier 7 (based off feats).

Terms made up by you, and with no weight.

I'm saying based off feats. By feats Dolohov=Bella who stomped Kingsley.

I'd argue Lupin could take Kingsley.

Right.

Okay.

Neither of them can take 3 as Kingsley took a whole battle to defeat 2 and Sirius struggled with 1.

Taking on =/= beating. Kingsley beat 2 death eaters, as he battled two and went after Bellatrix after that. So he could at least stalemate with 3 for a while. Sirius is debatable, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could put up a fight against 2. Probably not win.

Adding another duelist to a 1v2 engagement making it a 1v3 makes a huge differance so I'd argue Kingsley goes down rather quickly against 3. As for Sirius based on the scaling Sirius>Bellatrix>Kingsley I'd argue he could beat two but would lose to 3.

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#49 Edited by cpt_nice (10026 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

I'm not picking a side.Just stopping lowballing.

By stating I am lowballing you are expressing a disagreement with how I view the outcome of the battle, which means you have a made up mind. That is clearly picking a side, which is bad form.

Based on the fact Ron mangaed to outsmart a group of Snatchers and escape from them

Outsmarting/escaping is not the same as dueling skill. Try again.

Sirius only lost to Bellatrix due to his overconfidence. He'd just spent months in his family's home and when he runs off to fight the Death Eaters guess who he meets. You guessed it a member of his family. By this point Sirius is fuming from being stuck in his house for months so when he meets a member of his family he lets out his anger by making her angry by laughing and mocking her. She then exploits this opening and uses it to kill him. So the Bellatrix>Sirius arguement is flawed at its core.

You are projecting so hard I could point you at a wall and show off a powerpoint presentation on you.

Sirius was sloppy and he got killed. He also has no feats to suggest he could beat someone who made a joke out of 4 wizards and blocked a spell from Dumbledore himself.

no dueling feats to compare

Bellatrix has plenty. Sirius has few. So yeah, I know who I am supporting.

in universe statements which Sirius trumps Bellatrix at

Yeah, that is totally how argumentation works. You are really ace at this.

There was a reason why Sirius was considered Voldemort's number one Death Eater when he was framed.

He wasn't.

Thank you for being reasonable and admitting when you were wrong.

Contrary to some people, I tend to debate using factual statements and own up to faults on my part.

I'll admit when I'm wrong and here I am

Alright.

Based of what I said earlier though they are fodder so this matters little.

Goes back to my first point. I need some in-universe proof that snatchers are way below death eaters.

I made up numbers so it would be a fair match up.

You seem REALLY hung up on numbers, going as far as to go into decimals, which to me is kinda silly when discussing these battles. But ok.

I did this because I wanted it to be fair and also so I didn't show bias as the op as the numbers are even.

In your mind, this is fair. In other's minds, there is clear advantage. And you seem so hung up on what you believe, you are fighting tooth and nail for it. And that, again, is really bad form.

Also based off feats Bellatrix=Dolohov.

Citation needed. Also, this clearly shows bias.

I'm saying based off feats. By feats Dolohov=Bella who stomped Kingsley.

Which feats? Also, I wasn't talking about that, I was commenting on the fact that you are dragging totally made up terms into this debate that you made up yourself. Tier 8 or tier 7 is not a thing in the HP verse.

Adding another duelist to a 1v2 engagement making it a 1v3 makes a huge differance so I'd argue Kingsley goes down rather quickly against 3.

See that is your problem, you are arguing a bit too much in threads you created yourself. Also, this does nothing to dispel my argument that someone who can beat 2 could stalemate 3.

As for Sirius based on the scaling Sirius>Bellatrix>Kingsley

Scaling is bs, he has no feats on their level and he got killed by Bellatrix. So he is not higher than them and you arguing he is without the citation from the books is disingenuous. So I am not going to argue with you any further. I will reserve further debate for other people.

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#50 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Neither Snape nor Sirius are better then Bellatrix. There is no evidence for this.

Sirius only lost to Bellatrix due to his overconfidence. He'd just spent months in his family's home and when he runs off to fight the Death Eaters guess who he meets. You guessed it a member of his family. By this point Sirius is fuming from being stuck in his house for months so when he meets a member of his family he lets out his anger by making her angry by laughing and mocking her. She then exploits this opening and uses it to kill him. So the Bellatrix>Sirius arguement is flawed at its core.

Now that we've got that out of the way I can bring up the fact that seen as we have no dueling feats to compare we have to compare in universe statements which Sirius trumps Bellatrix at. There was a reason why Sirius was considered Voldemort's number one Death Eater when he was framed. It is because people to belived Sirius to be more powerful than Bellatrix. Based on this I say Sirius>Bellatrix.

Here is an arguement that says Sirius>Bellatrix.

Also Snape is roughly equal to Bella (based off feats) and me putting him above her may be bias (the same is true for Sirius although for Sirius a more concrete case can be made).

Here is some scaling which puts Snape on par with Bella.

Snape=Bellatrix>McGonagall>Kingsley.

Heck I'd put McGonagall over Bellatrix but it's more concrete to put her roughly around Kingsley tier.

She has the best combat record bar none of everyone except Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Voldemort and possibly Delphini Riddle if you include CC.

My head-canon says CC does not exist. I would agree with you that she has the best quality and quantity of feats balance but I wouldn't say she has the best of either.

While i would totally agree Snape has a greater knowledge of magic, knows more spells, and is more versatile then Bellatrix he is not better then her at dueling.

His knowlege is what puts him above Bella for me as they are roughly on par combat wise (based on feats).

A perfect example similar to this is Harry and Hermione. While i don't think anyone would question Hermione is a better witch then Harry, Harry would win against her in a duel. This was confirmed by J.K Rowling. So it is the same with Snape and Bellatrix. End of argument.

This is a good araguement but one example doesn't apply to all cases.

Sirius is also not better then Bellatrix. If he was he would have been owning the Death Eaters left, right, and center at the Battle of the Ministry of Magic and this wasn't the case.

Sirius wasn't owning Death Eaters because he only fought one normal Death Eater (the rest he fought were high tiers). Besides the Death Eater didn't give him much of a fight. Yes the Death Eater gave him a fight but it was short.