Mako, Ghazan, Zuko vs Bolin, Ming Hua, Azula

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Arcus1

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#1  Edited By Arcus1

Team 1:

Mako, Ghazan, Zuko

Team 2:

Fight takes place in a forest like this one, except with a river running by

No Caption Provided

Each team has in character knowledge on each other and 5 minutes to brief their other team members.

All are in character but determined

Time is perpetual twilight. Starting distance is 50 feet. Victory by ko or death

Which team will win?

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MetalJimmor

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Hmm. I feel like Ghazan is a pretty harsh counter to Ming Hua. His earth and lavabending can destroy anything she tries to climb on, and I can't imagine she can block his lava attacks very well. Add in Mako and Zuko with all their fire and Ming Hua, or indeed any waterbender, is going to struggle to keep their water source up. Even with a river.

Mako and Zuko can hold off Azula and Bolin pretty well. Azula's lightning is basically a non-factor since two of her opponents can redirect it. As of now Ghazan is the superior lavabender, so he can likely counter Bolin pretty well too. Not to mention we've seen Mako's fire blast away Ghazan's lava blast before, so he could be able to handle his brother's lava in the same way.

So team Hot and Spicy take it! Mako, Zuko, and Ghazan are just too hot to beat.

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Jacthripper

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Team 1

Bolin has yet to do anything impressive as Ghazan did with lava, Zuko already stalemates Azula, and Mako already beat Ming Hua, so they have the overall advantage.

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Koays

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Team 1. I think they can all hang with Ming Hua for a bit in a fair fight and she's probably team 2's ace in the hole. But Mako's lightning seems to be the easiest way to take her down. On the other hand team 2 doesn't really have an easy take down like that.

Though really it's pretty close with the exceotion of a Mako/Ming Hua mash up.

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Arcus1

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Hmm. I feel like Ghazan is a pretty harsh counter to Ming Hua. His earth and lavabending can destroy anything she tries to climb on, and I can't imagine she can block his lava attacks very well. Add in Mako and Zuko with all their fire and Ming Hua, or indeed any waterbender, is going to struggle to keep their water source up. Even with a river.

Mako and Zuko can hold off Azula and Bolin pretty well. Azula's lightning is basically a non-factor since two of her opponents can redirect it. As of now Ghazan is the superior lavabender, so he can likely counter Bolin pretty well too. Not to mention we've seen Mako's fire blast away Ghazan's lava blast before, so he could be able to handle his brother's lava in the same way.

So team Hot and Spicy take it! Mako, Zuko, and Ghazan are just too hot to beat.

On the other hand Ming Hua's agile, airborne fighting style could be well suited for avoiding lava. Ming Hua doesn't have to fight Ghazan either, she could go for Zuko or Mako

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Arcus1

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Team 1

Bolin has yet to do anything impressive as Ghazan did with lava, Zuko already stalemates Azula, and Mako already beat Ming Hua, so they have the overall advantage.

Mako beat Ming Hua under some very particular circumstances. Let's not forget that she wrecked him in their first fight

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LokLegends

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Team 2 stomp. Ming-Hua and Azula could solo. Sane Azula is already a better fire bender than Zuko, and Ming-Hua made Mako look like fodder in their first fight. The only reason he beat her was PIS. She went from curbstomping him to losing? PIS. Azula and Ming-Hua quickly make short work of Mako and Zuko while Bolin holds Ghazan off. The three then gang up on him and Azula blitzes him with lightning.

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MetalJimmor

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@loklegends:

Azula can't even guarantee a majority over Zuko. She's not soloing.

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JasonHawke

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Team 2

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Arcus1

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Team 2 stomp. Ming-Hua and Azula could solo. Sane Azula is already a better fire bender than Zuko, and Ming-Hua made Mako look like fodder in their first fight. The only reason he beat her was PIS. She went from curbstomping him to losing? PIS. Azula and Ming-Hua quickly make short work of Mako and Zuko while Bolin holds Ghazan off. The three then gang up on him and Azula blitzes him with lightning.

Any reason for the bold? Mako and Ming Hua fought under different circumstances in their two fights

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Arcus1

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XxGin

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t2

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Korraspirit

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Azula possibly solos

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LokLegends

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#15  Edited By LokLegends

@metaljimmor: @arcus: Zuko cannot take a sane Azula without help. This was explicitly stated in the show. It was the reason why Katara went with him ton the palace. She would have dominated him. Everyone comes to this consensus, even Zuko himself. It is only until Zuko arrives and notices Azula's mental condition is he confident in taking her on alone.

Regardless of the conditions, Ming Hua stomped him effortlessly. She literally made him look like fodder

No Caption Provided

In this location Mako does not have the same advantage he had over her in the finale, so the fight is exactly the same as it was in "The Stakeout"

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Arcus1

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JasonHawke

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#17  Edited By JasonHawke

@arcus: ugh....

Azula curbstomps Zuko

Bolin actually -held- his ground against Ghazan for some reason.

Ming Hua wrecks Mako until situational environment advantage.

It's hard to see Team 1 pulling off a win.

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GXrevolution96

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#18  Edited By GXrevolution96

@korraspirit said:

Azula possibly solos

LOL. Fanboyisim at it's best.

@arcus

In all serious, as @jasonhawke said, Bolin somewhat held his own against Ghazan. Ming-Hua stomps Mako on a normal day unless he has a field advantage. Considering that the environment is similar to the mist palms in, Ming-Hua should take this without to much difficulty. Sane Azula should win with moderate difficulty at the most. It was made clear by Zuko can co that he couldn't take her.

In the end, it will be 3 v 1(Ghazan)

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Arcus1

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@jasonhawke: @loklegends: every time Zuko and Azula fought after his dragon training they were even. Zuko couldn't be sure of a victory but that doesn't mean Azula could be sure of a victory. They both had an even chance, which is why Katara was needed to ensure Zuko's success

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Arcus1

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@loklegends: also it was night in the stakeout, we know waterbenders get stronger at night and fire benders get weaker. It's perpetual twilight here

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MetalJimmor

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#21  Edited By MetalJimmor

@loklegends:

He said he'd need Katara to make sure he'd win. That doesn't mean he couldn't have won on his own, only that he wasn't 100% sure he would. If two fighters are evenly matched then it's basically a coin toss, and he wasn't willing to risk the fate of the Fire Nation on a coin flip.

You're also ignoring their fight at the Western Air Temple that ended in a stalemate. After Zuko discovered the true meaning of fire he became substantially more focused, and his fire became potent enough to rival Azula's blue flames as shown by how their fire repeatedly collided and cancelled each other out. When Azula started to lose it Zuko became confident he would win, because now the end result wasn't a coin toss. It was almost a sure thing.

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JasonHawke

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#22  Edited By JasonHawke

@arcus: Dude no, at the end of the series Iroh told Zuko to fight Azula with Katara because they both know that Zuko cannot take Azula alone.

BECAUSE ZUKO CANNOT TAKE AZULA ALONE.

There was no "even chance"

Azula > Zuko

besides, the "dragon training" was just to get Zuko and Aang to firebend again.

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Arcus1

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@jasonhawke: then explain why they were even at Boiling Rock and Northern Air Temple

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JasonHawke

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@arcus said:

@jasonhawke: then explain why they were even at Boiling Rock and Northern Air Temple

Omg look, I gave my arguments as to why I believe Team 2 > Team 1.

Go wiki the info or something okay? Btw, Waterbending only grows stronger during a full moon (which also weakens firebending) not cause it's night time and Firebending turns off completely during a Solar Eclipse.

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Firebending

Clearly, you need to brush up on your Avatar knowledge.

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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team 2 ming died from pis thats the only reason i feel she could beat mako or zuko in an actual fight and prolly stalemate ghazan, but ghazan is pretty slow himself so she mite just beat him as well.

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Mayan_Fist

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Team 1.

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GXrevolution96

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#27  Edited By GXrevolution96
@arcus said:

@jasonhawke: then explain why they were even at Boiling Rock and Northern Air Temple

Azula had already begun her decent into madness by the time she attacked Team Avatar at the Western Air temple. Just look at the way she fights. She was evidently losing her sanity, as her attacks became wild, less tamed and she was seemingly obsessed with killing Zuko.

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LokLegends

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#28  Edited By LokLegends

@metaljimmor@arcus

Zuko: "I can handle Azula"

Iroh: "Not alone. "You'll need help"

Zuko: You're right. How would you like to help me put Azula in her place?

Katara: What are you doing? She's playing you. She knows she can't take us both so she is trying to separate us.

Zuko: I know. But I can take her this time.

Katara: But even you admitted to your Uncle that you would need help facing Azula.

Zuko: There's something off about her, I can't explain it but she's slipping. And this way, no one else has to get hurt.

You're also ignoring their fight at the Western Air Temple that ended in a stalemate.

As GXrevolution96 already pointed out, she was already crazy by that poiny.

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Z___

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#29  Edited By Z___

So it waters down to tired versions of Mako & Ghazan vs. Azula. Interesting.

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Arcus1

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@loklegends: Sure, he would need help to guarantee a win, doesn'tean he'd be curbstomper by her alone @gxrevolution96: and what about Boiling Rock? Sure Sokka was there, but what did he do other than get in the way?

If Azula's sanity had been affecting her fighting, Zuko would have noticed at Northern Air Temple. It wasn't until the Agni Kai that he noticed her slipping (within a couple seconds, so he should have noticed after actually fighting her at the air temple if it was a problem)

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Arcus1

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@jasonhawke: right, not like they explained how water gets stronger at night in the season 1 finale with the siege of the north or anything...

I'm sorry that debating on a forum for debating bothers you so much

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MetalJimmor

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@loklegends:

Again, he'd need help securing a definite win. Those statements don't mean Zuko couldn't beat Azula. Especially since we've seen him fight evenly with her prior to this fight. Actual combat feats take priority over your interpretation of their statements.

@gxrevolution96:

She seemed to be fighting fine to me. She hadn't started seeing hallucinations and breaking into tears yet either. All that only started to happen near her coronation. She may have BEGUN her descent into madness, but frankly Azula was never completely sane to begin with. And there's no reason to suspect her fighting ability had already begun to drop given Zuko didn't notice a change in her until after the hallucinations started.

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pooty

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#33  Edited By pooty

@metaljimmor@arcus

Zuko: "I can handle Azula"

Iroh: "Not alone. "You'll need help"

Zuko: You're right. How would you like to help me put Azula in her place?

Katara: What are you doing? She's playing you. She knows she can't take us both so she is trying to separate us.

Zuko: I know. But I can take her this time.

Katara: But even you admitted to your Uncle that you would need help facing Azula.

Zuko: There's something off about her, I can't explain it but she's slipping. And this way, no one else has to get hurt.

You're also ignoring their fight at the Western Air Temple that ended in a stalemate.

As GXrevolution96 already pointed out, she was already crazy by that poiny.

There is no opinion needed. just an understanding of words. Uncle didn't say "you could possibly win but take Katara just in case". Uncle said "you'll need help". Zuko immediately agreed. Then Zuko said " I can take her this time". And Zuko is no mental doctor. He couldn't tell Azula was losing it until it was plainly evident. But her style of fighting had changed so that the viewer could tell she was acting off. You don't go from mentally sane to hallucinations. There are steps in between that are not noticed by everyone.

Azula >>Zuko

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Arcus1

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@pooty: then how come they were even at Boiling Rock? And if Zuko can notice that she's slipping after a few seconds of just talking to her, I think he would have realized if she was impaired at Northern Air Temple after talking with her and fighting her

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pooty

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@arcus said:

@pooty: then how come they were even at Boiling Rock? And if Zuko can notice that she's slipping after a few seconds of just talking to her, I think he would have realized if she was impaired at Northern Air Temple after talking with her and fighting her

Please post the Boiling Rock fight you are referring to? I don't remember a FIGHT. I remember them blasting and jumping a couple times. Zuko said " I can't explain it but she's slipping." He saw something then that he didn't see before. maybe the writers wanted the audience to notice before the characters noticed. Regardless he knew she was off. and he knew that "this time" he could take her. He didn't have that confidence BEFORE he saw her. So he saw something

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random_nerd

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Ming hua wrecks mako, azula takes zuko, and bolin could keel up with ghazan until back up arrives. Team 2 wins.

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MetalJimmor

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#37  Edited By MetalJimmor
Loading Video...

This is their first fight after Zuko learned the true meaning of fire, and consequently the very first time Zuko has ever shown the ability to dismiss Azula's fire. You can plainly see that blocking her attacks has no visible strain on him, and he can plainly keep up with her attack speed. With Sokka's help Azula came dangerously close to death in a very short amount of time. Contrast his fight here with his bouts with her in book 2 where he was only able to survive against her through ducking and weaving and you can see how much closer they are as fighters. Also notice that Zuko wasn't afraid to face his sister. In fact he seemed eager to fight her.

Loading Video...

Zuko again seemed pretty confident he wasn't marching to his death. He was fully aware it was his sister and was still confident he could at least match her long enough for the others to escape. I also see nothing in Azula's stance or technique that hint at her being a sloppier fighter, and she hadn't started seeing hallucinations yet, nor begun breaking down into hysterical sobbing. There's literally no indication that she isn't mentally capable enough to fight. This showdown ends after Zuko casually blows through all her attacks to get close, and the two have their attacks collide in a massive explosion that blasts both off the ship.

Zuko: "I can handle Azula."

Iroh: "Not alone. "You'll need help."

Zuko: You're right. How would you like to help me put Azula in her place?

As for this line of dialogue, notice that Zuko IS confident he can handle Azula. After all, his last two fights were very close. Iroh interrupts and says Zuko shouldn't go alone, to which Zuko agrees as he has tremendous respect for his uncle. Also keep in mind that Iroh was not around to see Zuko learn the true meaning of fire, and hasn't seen Zuko fight since book 2, so he has no way of knowing what Zuko's current skill level is to begin with. On top of that, we know that Iroh can be a worry wort when it comes to Zuko's safety.

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Aressword

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@koays said:

Team 1. I think they can all hang with Ming Hua for a bit in a fair fight and she's probably team 2's ace in the hole. But Mako's lightning seems to be the easiest way to take her down. On the other hand team 2 doesn't really have an easy take down like that.

Though really it's pretty close with the exceotion of a Mako/Ming Hua mash up.

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Gizmorino

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Coming back with a debate..... But am leaning on team 1 as ghazan is a better lava bender, and mako can beat ming-hua by striking any of her water arms(though tagging her would be difficult), and zuko vs azula is gonna be a long ass stalemate

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DeathHero61

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Team 2 stomp. Ming-Hua and Azula could solo. Sane Azula is already a better fire bender than Zuko, and Ming-Hua made Mako look like fodder in their first fight. The only reason he beat her was PIS. She went from curbstomping him to losing? PIS. Azula and Ming-Hua quickly make short work of Mako and Zuko while Bolin holds Ghazan off. The three then gang up on him and Azula blitzes him with lightning.

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Arcus1

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#41  Edited By Arcus1

@pooty:

MetalJimmor posted it, not sure what you'd call it except a fight

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, he saw that she was slipping, which he didn't see at the Air temple. I'm glad you agree

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Silverrings

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I think team 1 wins this, but it's definitely close.

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Jacthripper

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#43  Edited By Jacthripper

@arcus: Personally, I think that was due to the fact that Mako had never fought someone like Ming Hua, who fights in a way unrecognizable to traditional benders, and capable of inhuman movement speed. The second fight Mako was winning even before they fell in the water and he electrified her, because he had learned to adapt to her fighting style. Even so, as someone stated, Ghazan's presence weakens Ming Hua as the lava will evaporate her water rather quickly.

Here the link to their second fight, Mako had actually beaten her, before she jumped in the water. Even if there is more water here, there won't be for long, as Ghazan's lavabending will dry it up fast.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_FNUCkX-HcI

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pooty

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@arcus said:

@pooty:

MetalJimmor posted it, not sure what you'd call it except a fight

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, he saw that she was slipping, which he didn't see at the Air temple. I'm glad you agree

That clip was longer then the one I saw. I think Zuko lost. If the Gaang wasn't there to catch him, I think he would have fallen to his death. I've never seen him propel himself the way Azula did.

Also, just watched Ultimatum. For two seasons Tenzin was BULL$HIT in my eyes. Tenzin showed his stuff in that episode!!! Tenzin has my respect. BUT the real beast is that Water girl. Isn't she the best water bender we've seen? If not, who's better?

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Arcus1

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@pooty: Even if you count that as a loss its hardly a curbstomp nor something that would be extremely relevant when not under specific environmental conditions

Haha yeah Tenzin's awesome. You mean Ming Hua? She's extremely good. I think arguments could be made for Pakku, Unalaq, Katara, and maybe Korra being better than or at least rivaling her, but nothing for sure, mainly just do to her limited showings with large amounts of water

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pooty

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@arcus said:

@pooty: Even if you count that as a loss its hardly a curbstomp nor something that would be extremely relevant when not under specific environmental conditions

Haha yeah Tenzin's awesome. You mean Ming Hua? She's extremely good. I think arguments could be made for Pakku, Unalaq, Katara, and maybe Korra being better than or at least rivaling her, but nothing for sure, mainly just do to her limited showings with large amounts of water

After his dragon training I don't think Azula could curb stomp Zuko under any conditions. But I see people saying the fight was a draw/stalemate. Environmental conditions are a part of battle. Under those conditions I don't see a draw.

Really? all those people rival her? I've seen all of Katara's stuff. Ming Hua looked scary with large amounts of water

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Arcus1

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#47  Edited By Arcus1

@pooty:

True, but as far as the actual fight they were even, Azula just dealt with the environmental conditions better than Zuko (though for all we know Zuko might've survived)

Imo Ming Hua's better than Katara and Korra, but arguments could be made. I'm not sure about Pakku and Unalaq, if only because their limited showings make it hard to see their limits.

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GXrevolution96

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#48  Edited By GXrevolution96

@arcus said:

@pooty:

Imo Ming Hua's better than Katara and Korra, but arguments could be made. I'm not sure about Pakku and Unalaq, if only because their limited showings make it hard to see their limits.

I dont I recall you saying that Unalaq was the most powerful bender. Correct me if I am wrong. It could have been someone else.

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Arcus1

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@gxrevolution96: I might've said that, and he might be. Ming Hua's dangerous more because of her lethal speed and agility, we just haven't seen enough of her to know how she would fight in areas with large amounts of water (like the poles) with certainty. Same applies for how Unalaq and Pakku would handle her

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johnfrank120

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Is Azula sane in this fight?