@DJSNuva1: Because i hate it when DBZ characters are put up against comic characters. They are too broken. They win every time all the time. I don't care if it's DBZ vs. DBZ, but everyone else loses.
" @DJSNuva1: Because i hate it when DBZ characters are put up against comic characters. They are too broken. They win every time all the time. I don't care if it's DBZ vs. DBZ, but everyone else loses. "
The ramblings of a fanboy,. Scary thing. Heres an idea, instead of coming into dbz threads and trolling, which will undoubtedly start flame wars, how about you......not. Perhaps stroke your favorite comic book while you nap instead.
" @DJSNuva1: Because i hate it when DBZ characters are put up against comic characters. They are too broken. They win every time all the time. I don't care if it's DBZ vs. DBZ, but everyone else loses. "
@Louisiana Bob:@DJSNuva1: Okay, I do admit, it was a little bit trolling on my part. It's just at the beginning I would seriously get into these battles until I had DBZ fanboys come in and show the stats and tell me that I am an idiot if I thought any non-DBZ character would win. And over time I kept getting bombarded with these God-like stats and I just gave up. The DBZ fanboys p*ssed my off so hard. Now it's just mindless anger. I apologize. ;-)
Okay, I'm not going to reply to anyone, so please don't try and debate me as I'm only here to calmly explain what I think.
I think the Martian Manhunter wins. Now, firstly, I don't think chi fire is going to work because MM can phase(he did so against Super Boy Prime's heat vision, which is close to fire as chi is.). Now then, I know that Majin Vegeta is very powerful, but the fact that it's a brainwashed Vegeta(and yeah I know he willing accepted it some plot thing) that mean that Vegeta, ever so slightly can be effected by telepathy. I believe that based on what I've seen that Martian Manhunter should have the telepathic ability needed to effect Majin Vegeta. Not to mention his phasing, stretching, and Martian vision(basically heat vision without the fire part) give MM the versatility to overcome Majin Vegeta.
Once again, if you disagree, do not respond to me as I do not want to be sucked into any flame war that may appear in this thread.
" 2. Vegeta was never under any mind control as he let himself be attacked by mind control and just as easily resisted it.
This doesn't mean that Vegeta can resist other forms of telepathy.
@Louisiana Bob said:
"3.Heat vision is not fire
Initially, Ki energy isn't fire, either. It may set things on fire with contact, but that's different. No reason to think that he can't phase through it.
@Louisiana Bob said:
" 4. Ki blast explode, no matter what people want to tell themselves
You're right. But, a target has to be hit for it to explode.
@Louisiana Bob said:
"5. Martian manhunter isn't going anything more than mach 10 speeds same as always.
What makes you think that J'onn will tap out at Mach 10? Where was it established that he wouldn't exceed that?
@Static Shock: I didn't say it did, bu someone else stated that vegeta was mind fracked by the magician which he wasn't.
Ki blows sh!t up. It doesn't matter if he gets hit or the ground around him gets hit, when vegeta throws a ki blast sh!t is getting blown up and the fire well commence. If Flash thought he could kill MM with an exploding car, i'm sure vegeta will do just fine with his casual city busting. And as i said, MM loses the power to phase around fire.
It doesn't mean it has to hit MM. It can hit the ground around him as he phases. Things will blow up just the same, and he will lose his powers just the same
The fastest i herd MM going in earths atmosphere was mach 10
Ki blows sh!t up. It doesn't matter if he gets hit or the ground around him gets hit, when vegeta throws a ki blast sh!t is getting blown up and the fire well commence. If Flash thought he could kill MM with an exploding car, i'm sure vegeta will do just fine with his casual city busting.
What if he's in the air, flying? If he phases through it while airborne, he doesn't have to worry about anything getting blown up within his proximity. Thus, the blast would phase through him, and not even touch a combustible surface while he's in the air. If in the air with Vegeta, and he's phasing through Ki blast unharmed (even omni-directional ones), he can always close the distance in an attempt to subdue him to the point where Vegeta couldn't fight back.
@Louisiana Bob said:
" It doesn't mean it has to hit MM. It can hit the ground around him as he phases. Things will blow up just the same, and he will lose his powers just the same "
This relates to what I said above. J'onn wouldn't be restricted to the ground if he can fly.
@Louisiana Bob said:
" The fastest i herd MM going in earths atmosphere was mach 10 "
Where did you read that?
No telling how fast he's going here, but I don't recall it being stated that he taps out at Mach 10, just because.
@Static Shock: If he phases in the air then vegeta will know what to expect. Not to mention the final explosion which automatically makes well...an explosion
same
thats what i've been hearing and reading..with the whole protect the earth..damage earth..speed bad yada yada yada.
" @Static Shock: If he phases in the air then vegeta will know what to expect. Not to mention the final explosion which automatically makes well...an explosion
Final explosion? If he's in the air, and the ki blasts don't hit combustible surfaces after he phases through them, where and how would the explosion commence? If it's just an explosion of Ki energy in the air, it still wouldn't be fire. It wouldn't be any different from Ki blast, in general, if it doesn't hit anything combustible.
@Louisiana Bob said:
" thats what i've been hearing and reading..with the whole protect the earth..damage earth..speed bad yada yada yada. "
Several characters have exceeded Mach 10 without harming their surroundings, not counting the Flash since the Speed Force aura allows him to move faster than light without destroying things. I've seen Superman run at 2000 miles/sec (which is 7,200,000 mph), Captain Atom achieve speeds faster than Mach 34 within the confines of a building, Quicksilver move from Tibet to Indonesia in a few seconds (it was a more recent showing), and the list goes on. It would be different if they were all moving at light speed. But, they have all been able to to reach a certain speed under the atmosphere that doesn't come close to light speed so they wouldn't tear up the planet.
I don't think Martian Manhunter is excluded from that standard.
I feel like MM could mind rape him and if not that go intangible and rip Majin Vegeta's heart out or something along those lines MM is a beast. If this was Majin Buu this would be a better fight cause he's a giant blob that heals and can transmute whole cities into chocolate and he can't really be mind raped or get killed through intangibility which would make it come down to straight up raw power. I don't really see how Majin Vegeta could stop MM from going intangible or stop him from overloading his mind I mean he did resist babidi but I feel like MM is way more skilled and way way more powerful than Babidi (all around that includes Telepathy and all other powers related to screwing up peoples minds).
@Static Shock: Right because MM fights all of his battles in the air...of course. It doesn't matter he will phase and vegeta will know what he's up against. MM can either choose to unphase and try and attack or sit there and have vegeta dodge all of his attacks.
oh please right off the back i know you're talking about flash 220. Right they're runningg right past cars in a crowded city and nothing. PIS. CA inside of a building..think about it.Quiksilver from marvel has what to do with DC physics? They...do not equal MM.
" @Static Shock: Right because MM fights all of his battles in the air...of course. It doesn't matter he will phase and vegeta will know what he's up against. MM can either choose to unphase and try and attack or sit there and have vegeta dodge all of his attacks.
It isn't as if Martian Manhunter fights all of his battles on the ground, as well. Just because he's phasing doesn't mean he wouldn't have the opportunity to attack, or close the distance as I noted in my subsequent post. If he was able phase through Prime's heat-vision and get close for an attack, why would it be different here? Why didn't Prime continuously shoot heat vision beams all about? There was obviously an opportunity to attack there. There's even the opportunity to use other forms of telepathy besides mind control to throw Vegeta off his game
@Louisiana Bob
said:
" oh please right off the back i know you're talking about flash 220. Right they're rung right past cars in a crowded city and nothing. PIS. CA inside of a building..think about it.Quiksilver from marvel has what to do with DC physics? They...do not equal MM. "
Right. That was obviously the issue in question. And? I don't think it's PIS, though. It's a comic book (and Superman has had similar speed feats, anyway). It's not supposed to be realistic. The same goes for Captain Atom inside of a building. Nothing to think about. It's not a question of DC physics, but comic book physics, simply because speed is cut from the same cloth between DC and Marvel. People in DC have done things similar to that one Quicksilver feat, anyway. Doesn't matter if Pietro is from another comic book company. They don't have to equal Martian Manhunter, but you're convinced that he taps out at Mach 10, when you don't even have evidence to support that. If other characters don't, why would Martian Manhunter be doing it? If several characters are able to achieve speeds like that on a regular basis under the Earth's atmosphere, how is it PIS?
@Static Shock: god damn i was tired last night, i fell asleep on my keyboard smh
Uh huh again MM is going to keep this fight in the air the whole fight..no i don't think so. And yes thats exactly what phasing means the only attack he can do while phasing is martian vision which vegeta will easily dodge, which means MM will either get close, same as ever, or he will sit in the air like a tard which is highly unlikely. Are you seriously asking me why someone didn't do something for plot purposes? You mean the telepathy you don't know well work?
Actually yes it is. When its been stated even in the same issue that if superman does certain speeds he will do damage to the city around him, and he's clocking major speeds not only in a crowded city but around people and such, and is doing no damage whatsoever,....yes thats PIS. And again if someone is doing mach 36 inside of a building doing no damage whatsoever to surroundings......again PIS. Actually yes it is a question of DC physics. Dc and marvel are two very different playing playing fields and you already know that. It in fact does matter. Especially when DC likes to be all lossy goosey with their physics and marvel tends to keep things more real world to a point. I'm convinced because thats what i was told...if you have evidence to say otherwise...then please by all means..post it. I';m sorry but stating what someone did from a completely different comic book universe who have their own laws of physics and comparing it to another ...= no. You telling me about someone doing mach 35 inside a building with no damage being done to the surroundings = i'm smart enough to know it's PIS
I don't think Vegeta would get mind Raped in this battle. I do believe he would loose. He doesn't match the strength and overall power of the Martian. He would put up a hell of a fight. Plus Martian No longer has a weakness to fire. Also in regards to his speed of Mach10. I have a comic where he Flies Around the Earth and destroys like 80 machines then saves Kyle Rayner and it all happens in a few seconds. That is a feat of speed rite there.
@ThaMessenger07: You know who else didn't match the strength of MM? The guys who blasted his ass out the sky and then had him locked inside a cage before the finally just stabbed him in the chest and killed him. And MM is very much so weakened against fire.
Unless Manhunter knows of Vegetas weakness to having his foot stepped on i this Vegeta could pull this off maybe@Louisiana Bob: You Spike how many accounts do you have????
hhmm lets see so that 6 =4 -18 carry the 4 oh and theres that one and yep that makes 34 and she has a few side ones i thik so add it all together 3245 oh no wait 46 she uses mine too
" @DJSNuva1: Because i hate it when DBZ characters are put up against comic characters. They are too broken. They win every time all the time. I don't care if it's DBZ vs. DBZ, but everyone else loses. "
Typically yes. But this is one i don't think DBZ takes.
@Louisiana Bob
said:
"1. MM loses his phasing ability near fire, along with super strength, speed, durability and shape shifting. 2. Vegeta was never under any mind control as he let himself be attacked by mind control and just as easily resisted it. 3.Heat vision is not fire 4. Ki blast explode, no matter what people want to tell themselves 5. Martian manhunter isn't going anything more than mach 10 speeds same as always. 6. Martian manhnunter has been brought down and killed by humans using nothing more than fire and they werent anywhere near as powerful as vegeta. Vegeta wins "
MM has phased through Superboy prime's heat vision. Plus his telepathy faaaar exceeds Babidi's, who mainly uses magic. MM's has taken out all of the stations of the White Martian Invasion on several continents, in just a few seconds. His speed is definitely above Mach 3. Also MM can be invisible, and is much stronger than Vegeta, not to mention he telepathically adapts to anything Vegeta may try. MM was killed by a power stealing minion of Darksied, and alien Warlord. This was a man who was also able to resist and fight off the Spectre. Not some random fire-weilding humans.
(some of these feats were posted by Static Shock on the first page)
The only advantage Vegeta has are his ki blasts, which don't work if MM is intangible, invisible, and telepathically knows when and where Vegeta is going to attack.
@Louisiana Bob: Last time I read him in something he had overcome his fear which also made it known it was fear and never a true weakness like Kryptonite.
As for the Speed Feat:
White Martians Are Attacking and Have Towers Set up in Each Continent
These are the Towers Being Destroyed
This is the Guy Who Did it All in Moments and Also Save Kyles ass From The attack on the first panel
" @Louisiana Bob: Last time I read him in something he had overcome his fear which also made it known it was fear and never a true weakness like Kryptonite.
As for the Speed Feat:
White Martians Are Attacking and Have Towers Set up in Each Continent
These are the Towers Being Destroyed
This is the Guy Who Did it All in Moments and Also Save Kyles ass From The attack on the first panel Yeah.....Mach 10 My a$$ "
And once again, heat vision is not heat. Magic telepathy that allows babdi to scan minds of everyone on earth, allow himself to put images into peoples heads on everyone on earth is hardly low level tp. An by the way Magic>>everything else. Once again pics. Who said anything about mach 3? And vegeta can sense people he can not see. vegeta's no slouch in the strength department. You mean like he tp adapted to all those other times he got his ass kicked? Uhhh libra used a machine that he no longer has to steal "half" of the justice leagues powers in like...1970. He was killed by a minion of darksied who's only powers seem to be TP immunity and who later got his ass kicked by inertia...and then killed by lex luthor. So as far as the resist the spectre stuff goes..lol no. The spectre could not attack libra because he was protected by the anti life equation....same way a group of normal humans with no powers forced spectre to flee. MM got beat because of flaming trident. Thats of course after this
and then they locked him in a freaking flaming cage,where he was unable to escape.
i already went over everything else you said, so yeah
@ThaMessenger07: well read comic that was written this decade. And as for the speed feet meh, i guess he goes ahead and ignores his no speeding on earth when you know earth is about to be destroyed........which doesn't really prove anything other than that.
Oh and just blowing the Martian away is gonna be hard......The Martian Can Scan Everyone's mind on Earth Also :D.........He Also Has Some Ranged power :D.....He also does that regenerate thin ;)
Scanning Earth For One Person
Eye Beam BAM! MARTIAN EYES BABY!!!
Reviving From Goop After Being Tossed into a Volcano.
"And once again, heat vision is not heat. Magic telepathy that allows babdi to scan minds of everyone on earth, allow himself to put images into peoples heads on everyone on earth is hardly low level tp. An by the way Magic>>everything else. Once again pics. Who said anything about mach 3? And vegeta can sense people he can not see. vegeta's no slouch in the strength department. You mean like he tp adapted to all those other times he got his ass kicked? Uhhh libra used a machine that he no longer has to steal "half" of the justice leagues powers in like...1970. He was killed by a minion of darksied who's only powers seem to be TP immunity and who later got his ass kicked by inertia...and then killed by lex luthor. So as far as the resist the spectre stuff goes..lol no. The spectre could not attack libra because he was protected by the anti life equation....same way a group of normal humans with no powers forced spectre to flee. MM got beat because of flaming trident. Thats of course after this
and then they locked him in a freaking flaming cage,where he was unable to escape. i already went over everything else you said, so yeah "
Why is the word "heat" in heat vision then? It's projected infrared light, i.e. heat.
I take back my comment that Martian far exceeds babidi's tp, but mm still exceeds it. MM has taken control of virtually every mind on the planet before, and mindraped a cosmic force, babidi hasn't.
Meant to say Mach 10
Vegeta can sense people in the DBZ universe that he cannot see. DC charaters do not have power levels.
MM very rarely "gets his ass kicked." He tends to stay in the background since he's such a powerful character, most plots involving him wouldn't make since cuz of his myriad abilities.
All other examples are poorly written plot and idiocy. MM's speed and telepathy would allow him to easily beat every one in that panel simulataneously. But the writers thought the plot should happen "this way" so they wrote this nonsense. MM wasn't fighting at his full potential, he wasn't trying to incapacitate them he wanted to realay a message.
If MM is going for the kill there is very little anyone can do about it, as the Fernus situation showed people.
Also any instance involving fire is techinically aided by the Guardians of the universe since they are the ones who put that psychological weakness in them to prevent them from destroying the universe. Martians aren't weak to fire, they simply beleive they are, because of the Guardians genetic tampering.
@ThaMessenger07: uh huh..and when he scanned black adams mind what happened. Oh yeah he freaked out about all the dead people he saw and ran away literally crying. What do you think will happen when he scans vegetas brain who has killed planets full of people since he was a child?
And do i even need to say what vegeta would do to these people?
Thats what vegeta can do to a being who's equal to a guy who was tanking moon busters with one hand.
"And once again, heat vision is not heat. Magic telepathy that allows babdi to scan minds of everyone on earth, allow himself to put images into peoples heads on everyone on earth is hardly low level tp. An by the way Magic>>everything else. Once again pics. Who said anything about mach 3? And vegeta can sense people he can not see. vegeta's no slouch in the strength department. You mean like he tp adapted to all those other times he got his ass kicked? Uhhh libra used a machine that he no longer has to steal "half" of the justice leagues powers in like...1970. He was killed by a minion of darksied who's only powers seem to be TP immunity and who later got his ass kicked by inertia...and then killed by lex luthor. So as far as the resist the spectre stuff goes..lol no. The spectre could not attack libra because he was protected by the anti life equation....same way a group of normal humans with no powers forced spectre to flee. MM got beat because of flaming trident. Thats of course after this
and then they locked him in a freaking flaming cage,where he was unable to escape. i already went over everything else you said, so yeah "
Why is the word "heat" in heat vision then? It's projected infrared light, i.e. heat. I take back my comment that Martian far exceeds babidi's tp, but mm still exceeds it. MM has taken control of virtually every mind on the planet before, and mindraped a cosmic force, babidi hasn't. Meant to say Mach 10 Vegeta can sense people in the DBZ universe that he cannot see. DC charaters do not have power levels. MM very rarely "gets his ass kicked." He tends to stay in the background since he's such a powerful character, most plots involving him wouldn't make since cuz of his myriad abilities. All other examples are poorly written plot and idiocy. MM's speed and telepathy would allow him to easily beat every one in that panel simulataneously. But the writers thought the plot should happen "this way" so they wrote this nonsense. MM wasn't fighting at his full potential, he wasn't trying to incapacitate them he wanted to realay a message. If MM is going for the kill there is very little anyone can do about it, as the Fernus situation showed people. Also any instance involving fire is techinically aided by the Guardians of the universe since they are the ones who put that psychological weakness in them to prevent them from destroying the universe. Martians aren't weak to fire, they simply beleive they are, because of the Guardians genetic tampering. "
Heat does not = fire. Especially when it can be used as a concussive blast. Mind raped a cosmic force..i take it you mean the spectre who pretty much allowed it. And it wasn't anything near mind rapping but a trip down memory lane. Dc characters are alive...ki = people who have a life force...something superman can sense by the way. And yet he does get his ass kicked. And yet he didn't. I' sorry but MM getting his ass kicked and you not liking it isn't a proper retort. I'm sorry the guardians being behind the martians weakness to fire is what..suppose to mean something. I'm afraid it does not.
" Uh huh again MM is going to keep this fight in the air the whole fight..no i don't think so. And yes thats exactly what phasing means the only attack he can do while phasing is martian vision which vegeta will easily dodge, which means MM will either get close, same as ever, or he will sit in the air like a tard which is highly unlikely. Are you seriously asking me why someone didn't do something for plot purposes? You mean the telepathy you don't know well work?
Why not? He's fought a lot of battles in the air, so why is it different here? Are you assuming Vegeta was just stay on the ground and bait J'onn, as well (when he's fought a lot of battles in the air, too)? Just because he's phasing doesn't mean he wouldn't have the opportunity to attack. J'onn's ability to attack someone has nothing to do with the plot. Any reason why other forms of telepathy wouldn't work, when Vegeta hasn't shown to resist them?
@Louisiana Bob said:
" Actually yes it is. When its been stated even in the same issue that if superman does certain speeds he will do damage to the city around him, and he's clocking major speeds not only in a crowded city but around people and such, and is doing no damage whatsoever,....yes thats PIS. And again if someone is doing mach 36 inside of a building doing no damage whatsoever to surroundings......again PIS.
No. That wasn't stated in Flash #220. That was stated in a Superman comic book. Certain speeds would do damage, but it wasn't explicitly stated which speeds would do damage. The fact that you think it's PIS, doesn't change the fact that it happens regularly in comic books. You're entitled to your opinion, but that fact that it happens often makes it valid, no matter what.
@Louisiana Bob said:
"Actually yes it is a question of DC physics. Dc and marvel are two very different playing playing fields and you already know that. It in fact does matter. Especially when DC likes to be all lossy goosey with their physics and marvel tends to keep things more real world to a point.
Not really. The speed issue with both DC and Marvel basically the same. If not, Pietro would be covering over 8000 km in a few seconds. He wouldn't be running Mach 15 in a city, either. Sentry wouldn't be speeding from point A to point B in a city just to catch a bullet. Iron Man wouldn't be pushing past Mach 8 in a city, either. Silver Surfer wouldn't be zooming around the planet in search of something in a few seconds, either. It's the same.
@Louisiana Bob said:
"I'm convinced because thats what i was told...if you have evidence to say otherwise...then please by all means..post it.
What you were told doesn't really help much. There's no need to post evidence, really.
@Louisiana Bob said:
" I';m sorry but stating what someone did from a completely different comic book universe who have their own laws of physics and comparing it to another ...= no. You telling me about someone doing mach 35 inside a building with no damage being done to the surroundings = i'm smart enough to know it's PIS "
It doesn't really matter, when both comic book universes are doing the same thing. As far as it being PIS, it's OK for you to say that. But, happens regularly. So, it's valid.
@Louisiana Bob: Yes He Was. It was from the core that rose. It was Serious. But it appears he just melded down and meshed rite back together. I Love Vegeta, He is one of my Favorite Characters Period! Not in DBZ Not in Comics but Period. I Just feel he is fighting a superman like character with a placebo of powers that make him more then efficient to just destroy. He is more of a multi Z fighter threat then a single fighter. Think Kid Buu but not a rampaging savage as calculated as Cell and Frieza Combined. MM Literally IS all the DBZ villains combined as far as Unique Powers and Abilities minus the Ki blast and Brolly lol
" @ThaMessenger07: well read comic that was written this decade. And as for the speed feet meh, i guess he goes ahead and ignores his no speeding on earth when you know earth is about to be destroyed........which doesn't really prove anything other than that. "
You act as if it's wrong, when you don't even know how fast he's moving.
I wonder what MM would find in Vegeta's mind if he tried to scan it? If they fight in a say a jungle Vegeta is a smart fighter he would quickly notice his weakness to fire and turn it into a raging inferno.. Same goes for a city! Vegeta won't mind killing people to kill his opponent.
Now Vegeta allowed himself to have his mind controled and was still powerful enough to act in his own mind, basically breaking the mind control but keeping the power that came with it.
I think either has a chance to win but Martian manhunter has a better chance with his superior strength and phasing ability.
Sir i'm not about to sit here and go yes he will no he wont all day with you. You want to think that MM will keep the fight in the air, after reaviling to vegeta that he can phase...and for some reason think vegeta will just keep rushing at him...thats fine..idc. It does if you're asking why he didnt keep shotting his eye ball heat at SBP. Besides the fact that vegeta has resisted another form of TP...
Pretty sure flash said if he stole supes speed he would crap up the planet. the fact that superman when stopping a bullet from hitting miss lane in the face said something about sonic booms, one can assume any speed that involves sonic booms. The fact that it happens regulary in comics means theres a lot of pIS in comics. No the fact that it happens when its stated that they would not = PIS.
No they're not.
So what you're saying is you dont hae the proof, that he can go faster than that when the world isnt in grave danger...when people with similar speed such as superman went thats a no no..ok
No it does matter because the have different physics. Again the fact that it happens often when its been established that it shouldn't = PIS
" @ThaMessenger07: uh huh..and when he scanned black adams mind what happened. Oh yeah he freaked out about all the dead people he saw and ran away literally crying. What do you think will happen when he scans vegetas brain who has killed planets full of people since he was a child?
Martian Manhunter has been inside of the mind of the Spectre (who's witnessed more death than Black Adam has), as well as the Joker (whose mind is not only the most chaotic, but he has witnessed death at his hands too). Why didn't they send him away crying?
Besides, the only reason why Black Adam got away with that was because of the Courage of Mehen. The god gives him the willpower to resist attacks like that. Vegeta doesn't benefit from that, so the outcome wouldn't be the same.
" @Louisiana Bob: Yes He Was. It was from the core that rose. It was Serious. But it appears he just melded down and meshed rite back together. I Love Vegeta, He is one of my Favorite Characters Period! Not in DBZ Not in Comics but Period. I Just feel he is fighting a superman like character with a placebo of powers that make him more then efficient to just destroy. He is more of a multi Z fighter threat then a single fighter. Think Kid Buu but not a rampaging savage as calculated as Cell and Frieza Combined. MM Literally IS all the DBZ villains combined as far as Unique Powers and Abilities minus the Ki blast and Brolly lol "
Well thats..silly. He's fighting a superman like character who has several weaknesses that vegeta can easily exploit just by being vegeta
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