Magneto vs Ultimate Apocalypse

@masterofevil:

Absolutely missed that, fair point. Still it was most likely due to his severed arm, what else could that be?

What else could what be? Are you talking about the healing or Apocalypse?

@masterofevil:

HF that Apoc stole from Wolverine.

@adamtrmm: yeah that, you actually see apocalypse throw the arm at wolverine, so yeah.

@adamtrmm said:

@darklord_apoc:

You're so passionate about Apoc it's so cute :) I really want to say I'm doing it without much pleasure but since you called me out and Ult Apoc is a cartoonish villain parody, here we go:

First of all you missed some key points in "Ultimate X-Men" issue 91... Apocalypse also called out to the mutants saying he controls their genes, he said that to the remaining mutants alive, so was he lying? I will quote word for word what he said: " You've seen but a shadow of my abilities. I can drive your mutant genes, and work my way into your subconscious thoughts, I can control you all!! Mutants are my puppets" this was taking for "Ultimate X-Men 91"... So why did he bother to bring up the mutant genes and say that mutants are his puppets? He also goes on to say "Your friends, your family, any mutant you've had contact with, anyone they've had contact with, I command you all!" Meaning he has control over ALL mutants not just the ones he killed or that statement wouldn't of made sense correct? If I am not mistaking the X-men had contact with Magneto before right? Basically to sum it down he is talking about all mutants...

Was he lying? I dunno, but what I know is that Xavier confirmed he's only blocking his psionic control over muties, not anything else. I addressed that point already, but with this quote and specifically this part: "I can drive your mutant genes, and work my way into your subconscious thoughts" acknowledging everything that happened it seems he was able to only control the mutants as we know he never controlled any human (SHIELD) or superhuman (FF) in this area. Once again, if Xavier has blocked him telepathically, it cannot be gene manip.

You cannot use his words to confirm what he can do or not, we go by showings, and since he never controlled "their friends, their families, or any mutant they had contact with" specifically, it's nothing but a groundless statement.

And no they didn't have a contact with Magneto, it's 616, and again, 616 X-gene=/=1610 X-gene. This is not a good argument, see the scan I posted above where Beast explains muliversal awareness of how X-genes not always work the same way. And since Ultimate X-gene is man-made while 616 is evolutionary, you just can't use this argument, in all of the subtexts. Simple. I won't debate this again.

Another example of this was before he fought Wolverine he stated this, "You know not what you face, child. I can see your DNA. Your mutant GENES speak to me. I hear their song. I can reach out and take them if I want.." Meaning he doesn't have to kill the mutants to take their DNA from them, but I mean he can but nowhere does it say he has to kill them to take it from them... He again tells Wolverine " I will make your healing abilities my own. Your mutant gift is mines to take." All this was in Ultimate X-Men 91, and I have all the issues, and if this still isn't enough to prove he does in fact have control over their genes, then I will look for other examples in the other issues.... If you wish you can look or google the issue up and read up on what it is about and it should tell you, but I have the issues so I don't need to... I know in one of the issues it was stated that since Apocalypse was the first mutant in this universe that all of his genes are in every mutant making it so he can take their genes if he wants to since they rightfully belong to him and he was the start of the X Gene!

That's true, he did see that Wolverine possess a healing factor, but if he's a so potent gene manip as you claim, why couldn't he just mimic it? He said "I will make your healing ability my own.... you will be the first to fall" while attacking him, like you know, he needed him dead to take his power. Meaning he does have to kill them, what did he SHOW to prove he doesn't? Did he use Cyclops, Jean, Storm, or any other mutant powers that were around him? No? Good.

But it was said and shown that he needed them dead, with Sinister before, and then with Xavier, again you ignore what I say.

No, it was stated that Apocalypse CLAIMS to be the first mutant and thus thinking they all belong to him, but Ultimate mutants were retconned into a Weapon X product and first mutant to be.... Wolverine! So no, wrong again. The crap that is UU now.

If you consider him melting for like 8 pages a good showing, then I'm impressed indeed. :)

Also if I might add that just because Apocalypse wanted to kill Xavier and the use the X Gene against him doesn't mean that he couldn't do it if Xavier was alive... So you cannot go by that..

No, you cannot go by anything else since it's the only showing he has.

Also it was apparent that Wolverine's healing powers were gone along with his strength as well because he stabbed Apocalypse in the neck, and Apocalypse barley turned his neck and Wolverine's arm snapped off... He showed no signs of his healing powers...

So you're saying when Wolverine with his severed arm was back for the battle had no healing factor? Really?.....

He showed no signs of his healing powers...

Because that's how people who had their arms chopped off recently act right after.

But I mean I pointed out to you which issue that Apocalypse stated how he can control their genes in my last paragraph, he out right states it! So rather he choices to kill and then take their powers is irrelevant, but what is relevant is that he can control their genes even when they are alive... I mean Apocalypse loves to gloat and show how better he is than anyone else, so it doesn't surprise me that he choice to fight with the mutants and not just take their powers right away, and if you know Apocalypse you will know he loves a challenge and a fight, how could he have one if he just took all their powers away? It would be a easy win for him.

That's all works for a story, but not a battle. We go by what we're shown, and his gene manip is moot at best, so I go by actual raw power and skill which Magneto has a very potent 50 years advantage over him.

With Magneto he probably would've even take his powers right away either, but there is no way Magneto can win here at all.... He told the Phoenix Force that she greatly underestimated him and I will quote what she said "A mistake I wont let happen again" then she went on to tell him to take the full power of the Phoenix, and he still didn't die right away, and she is way more powerful and can do whatever Magneto can but to a higher degree, so nope there is not one chance Magnus can win this at all! Point in case!

All you have right here is a hyperbole, what I have is a guy who still can rip his blood off, can crush him with tons upon tons of ferrous components, can shut his nervous system off, or can simply cut him to pieces (like Wolverine did, and Ultimate Adamantium is a pale imitation of 616 one, which Magneto already liquified effortlessly).

You never countered any of that, that's the answer still.

!. And you are Apocalypse biggest haters that it is cute since you think 616 Magneto>>> Phoenix Force (that even she had to use her full power on him at the end)

2. Um Apocalypse you keep on that Xavier blocked Apocalypse's powers which duh he also had that Onslaught helmet and training by Cable in the future, and again, just because Apocalypse wanted to kill Xavier and then take his X Gene does not mean he couldn't have it just means he wanted to kill Xavier and then take his powers, as you can see he didn't need to kill Wolverine, and btw Wolverine as the picture above shows that he doesn't need his full healing powers to recover, I mean I have seen Wolverines powers gone and seen him survive Thor's hammer, so what is you point there?

3. Apocalypse states himself that he controls the mutant gene when he talks about how he controls every mutant, their families or even other mutants that have been around. Apocalypse didn't take Xavier's X-Gene when the FF and Shield was fighting him, so I don't see where that is relevant at all... Oh, and even if Apocalypse could use his TP on the FF or Shield doesn't mean he cant it means he didn't want to lol.... So Apocalypse could have used his own TP on the X-Men, as we saw, but he needed Xavier's Gene to become even more powerful...

4. Proof that the X Genes are different?

5. Anyways Magneto loses big time, he isn't going to give Apocalypse that much problems if the Phoenix Force had admitted she underestimated him, and used her full powers... Nothing Magneto can do here. He will be controlled by Apocalypse, and rather or not Apocalypse choices to fight him and then kill him and take his powers like he was going to Xavier, doesn't matter at all but what does matter is there is nothing Magneto can do here at all....

@adamtrmm: @sirfizzwhizz: kinda late, but it's proof that 616 and 1610 x-genes are the same

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/preview-magneto-19/1100-152572/

I knew it. Other guy was so reaching.

Magento gets controlled.

@sirfizzwhizz: How? it's psychic control. Prof Xavier confirmed it himself by blocking it with his telepathy

Controls mutant DNA, and there bodies. Nothing to do with mind control. People being controlled state as such, they are not in control of their bodies but think and talk fine. Magneto helmet protects against mind attacks, not other forms of psy abilities. If that was the case Telekinesis or Pyrokenesis would not work on him, but it does though they are Psychic in nature. mentally controlling DNA is the same.

Gallery

Apoc gets a new toy to play with.

That's not the "proof" tbh Sentinels were not once mistaken, but above that we're talking about a context that's still hidden (was 1610 Earth preparing for them? Did they define them as mutants because it's Magneto and Polaris who are mutants on their planet? Unrevealed)

To me the proof is clear as the blue sky, if you think that ancient Celestial evolutionary gene is the same as Weapon X manmade, our logic works differently and I'll gladly stick with mine.

Poccy gets atomized.

Apocalypse really easy.

@adamtrmm: denial is not a argument, nor is making up a scenario that was never shown in attempt to debunk something.

Get over it

@sirfizzwhizz:

Denial? I though that is called thinking. Denial would be, for a change, the clearest evidence thrown at you and dismissed, where Xavier outdid his supposed "dna control" telepathically, and there's no running from factual evidence, but you do. So in your case it's both it and blind devotion, don't know what's worse. We're at different points on that level, and you have nothing noteworthy to tell me.

Apocalypse.

@adamtrmm: you ignore the fact that Apoc controles DNA of mutants with his psy ability, not mind controls. Then ignore the Nimrods of 1610 fully recognize the X Gene of 616 as the same as 1610, which shot down your BS argument that 1610 and 616 mutants are not the same.

Get over it.

@sirfizzwhizz:

Did it recognize X-gene? Or just mutant counterparts? Hm..

Do you know that Sentinels also recognized Falcon as mutant, is he?

BS logic that separates Celestial evolutionary gene, and man made one... Absolutely BS. But yours is where the perfection lies, I've seen it a lot of times. Consistently.

Lol you only force yourself into the corner, Magneto's helmet protects him from psionic interference and his own powers stopped JG psionics just because. If Mathew Mallow was unable to overcome that, Poccy ain't getting past his defenses either.

Deal with it, I guess. Or not, I don't really give a crap.

@adamtrmm: you don't have to give an crap, your entire argument been slapped aside by facts.

Who cares if it was Celestials or Humans tinkering with DNA, both have the same X Gene.

Also lol at your attempt to say they recognize falcon as a mutant, even though it's clear he is in a group of mutants, and the Nimrods were referring to them, not Falcon alone.

I already stated Magneto helmet only works on mind attacks. As stated already a dozen times, Mags helm does not make him immune to Psy attacks like TK or Pyrokenisis, Ferrokenisis, or Technopathy, or anything. Just Telepathy of mind attacks. Which is not what Apoc uses.

I understand you have nothing but flimsy arguments, so it's ok not to care. You just want to root for Mags, that's understanable.

Apocalypse.

@sirfizzwhizz:

That would be the last argument, that discussion has everything said and done to this point, if anyone willing to read and judge, they can from whatever there was already.

Yeah who cares that mutants of 1610 are basically mutates (because they are artificially made) and mutants of 616 who are an evolutionary product. Because Hulk (a mutate who happens to develop his own species) and Wolverine (a true mutant) are the same species according to you, right? Well, not for me.

What Nimrod? It was a regular Sentinel. You don't even know what I'm talking about then just ask. And it was directed at him specifically. "lol at you"

You already stated... wow, I will recheck all my principal beliefs from that point on. Magneto jammed Jean Grey's psionic output entirely, and Apoc's "DNA control" is beyond questionable and effective, we've been there already, so he ain't controlling him entirely if other psychics couldn't.

Your understanding is "in character" and as comprehensive I guess. You put a character with years of X-men busting continuity below the character who has two issues of the same only on much less well-shaped and rounded level. And you come to me with that petty favoritism accusation when all I see from you is that blind devotion to anything Ultimate even when it's mediocrity like this Ult Apoc who's his original counterpart's pale imitation?

The irony.

Now, with your permission, even if you want to add anything to this dead end discussion, do it without tagging me. I'm out.

@adamtrmm: best part is so many see through your lame back peddling and flimsy counters, so many voting Apoc. Seems others see through your arguments.

616 and 1610 X-Genes is utterly stupid, considering their respective origins.

And btw I don't see anything to suggest that in the Nimrod scans. They identified mutants and recognised their counterparts, but never said they were the same mutants as in their realities. If Bunn meant this, then it is bad writing

@sirfizzwhizz:

I remember asking you to not tag me again right? I was debunking your amusing wank over this thread: from claiming that Gah Lak Tus and Galactus is one and the same, to refusing to see how this DNA manipulation has never worked the way you keep wishing it is, dismissing even a direct statement Xavier has made how Apocalypse uses psychic control over them when he himself successfully blocked him and so on. All I can see is a laughable attempt to use the numbers against me tells me exactly who you are. Just look up for the threads about three years ago where MMH was constantly pitted against even the best Marvel psychics and "the numbers" were always at his side. But then, knowledgeable people have come and through good exposure and time voila, and the numbers are already shifting. How is that possible?! But hey, stick with your new found comfort zone, it's the prerogative for the "best of us" lmfao

Thank you milady, it's good to see people with actual knowledge on the X-verse seeing things through the right perspective :)

Bad Writing is a cop out excuse, considering the intent, and you as a damn good debater know this.

If they could not recognized their counterparts as mutants, then they would not recognized them as Mutants. To be a mutant you need a X-Gene. Both 1610 and 616 are different in origins, but state to have the X-gene, regardless of origin. Its why the Nimrods see them as mutants, and not simple super genetic humans like the rest of the beings in 616 and 1610. Seriously now Veitha.

Ignorance at its best. Like your opinion is right lol.

This is Apocalypse's battle to win.

Ultimate Apocalypse wins.

@adamtrmm: I'm a guy :)

@sirfizzwhizz: what I meant is that 616 and 1610 X-Genes are so different in their origins that they are very likely not to be the same, unless human tech in 1610 is on par with Celestial tech.

Take for example the Astonishing X-Men story in which Forge used alternate reality mutants, Beast said that they were of course mutants but their X-Gene was different since they were from different realities(it was in a different set of cromosomes or something like that). So of course mutants from different realities have X-Genes, but that doesn't mean it's the same X-Gene in every reality. The Nimrods could have just detected an X-Gene(as did Hank in the Ghost Box storyline) or recognised Mags and Polaris from their 1610 counterparts, that doesn't mean it's the exact same gene.

I know bad writing is a poor argument in a debate, but this looks like one. 1610 mutants were lab-made by human scientists, 616 mutants were the result of Celestial manipulations and centuries of evolution, I find hard to see them as the same thing.

@veitha: Im not sure why being made by humans is a bad thing. The Watchers that watch the universe were shown to document the rise of Mutants and Captain America as a key event in the universe. Just because 616 Celestials done it does not mean humans cant. Many beings in 616 that live on earth make their own mutants, look at Sinister, or even Dark beast, and more. Unless other beings failed to make mutants, being made by Celestials is no indication of anything, other than they did it first in 616.

Good point on the last part, but I have issue with this argument as well. The Nimrods still recognize them as mutants, and tell the difference of super humans to mutants as such. However, lets say the chromosomes are different. Is this proof against Apoc power set? If the Nimrods can scanner wise (there powerset still work on different chromosomes to recognize mutants) then is there really a solid argument of Apoc unable to affect the same recognize mutant DNA? His power is mutant DNA control, and stealing.

Lets take this a step further! Lets say this match is DoFP Sentinels, that copy powers and such. lets say we pit one of them against Beast of 616. Are you or anyone going to try and argue the Sentinels main power against "mutants" is going to fail now? Beast from a different MARVEL universe.

This is the only defense i see for Magneto supporters here, and its a very bad one if you no what I mean.

@veitha:

I was mistaken all along...

This is exactly what I also told him a page ago. Even used a scan of Beast theorizing on Multiversal mutant gene debacle.

magneto

Apoc should win given his mutant manipulation powers.

Apocalypse