Magneto vs Ultimate Apocalypse

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MasterOfEvil

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The Scenario:

Sometime after the universe rocking ending to Secret Wars (2015), certain villains decided to bring together powerful and influential individuals for a new Cabal. It was decided that all potential members would need to win their way into the group by beating another candidate who could also represent a specific group. This time, it's mutants.

The contenders:

Magneto (616)

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vs

Apocalypse (1610)

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Location: Blue Area of the Moon

Win Conditions: KO or Death

No BFR

Both at full power

no prep on either side

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MasterOfEvil

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Primez0ne

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Ult Apocalypse. IIRC he could absorb mutant's powers.

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MasterKungFu

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apoc

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MasterOfEvil

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Ult Apocalypse. IIRC he could absorb mutant's powers.

From what I read in those comics, he needs to either kill the mutant or take a body part from a mutant before he can take his/her powers. What's interesting is that he eventually builds up a resistance to whatever he's hit with (picture above is from after he gets hit by missiles).

But after reading the magneto respect thread, i'm still not sure who would win.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@primez0ne said:

Ult Apocalypse. IIRC he could absorb mutant's powers.

From what I read in those comics, he needs to either kill the mutant or take a body part from a mutant before he can take his/her powers. What's interesting is that he eventually builds up a resistance to whatever he's hit with (picture above is from after he gets hit by missiles).

But after reading the magneto respect thread, i'm still not sure who would win.

You forgot one major power.

No Caption Provided

He simply controls the actions of any mutant in a city wide vicinity via Gene manipulation.

Magneto is his puppet. His Psy defenses or helmet is no defense.

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adamTRMM

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Ultimate Apoc was indeed usurping mutant powers, mimicking their DNA and TP that rivaled Xavier's own, he became pretty powerful, thrashed both X-men and FF, and it took Jean to submit to Phoenix Force to be the only one who can win. That said, none of them was as versatile as 616 Maggie and due to Apoc's limited showings I'll give this to Magneto.

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Primez0ne

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@masterofevil: @sirfizzwhizz: Can't believe I forgot that. I did remember him also beating the whole of the Xmen and FF too while out muscling the Thing. Anyway Apoc still wins then.

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decaf_wizard

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#9  Edited By decaf_wizard

Well can't ultimate apoc use gene manipulation?? How does that not make this fight a mismatch??

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MasterOfEvil

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@decaf_wizard: because when Xavier shows up, he says that he was the only one strong enough to block apoc's telepathic control powers. So Magneto is protected by his helmet, so it's not a mismatch.

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Kingant27

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#11  Edited By Kingant27

Ultimate Apocalypse wins, he was only stopped by Jean Grey fully unleashing the Phonix Force on him, after he returned and attacked that made her need to.

He also overpower everyone including the X-men, Fantastic 4, SHIELD, and even Xavier, and would probably absorb Magneto; but ultimately doesn't need to win.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@decaf_wizard: because when Xavier shows up, he says that he was the only one strong enough to block apoc's telepathic control powers. So Magneto is protected by his helmet, so it's not a mismatch.

Not really. Wolverine is for the most part immune to TP and he was affected. Also Xavier failed horribly to combat on a strict TP way.

Cable again states in Scan 1 that Apoc is not TPing people, using his powers of mutant DNA control. Scan 2 shows Xavier telepathic powers in no shape or form working on Apoc control of the mutants, and Xaver powers were simply negated by Apoc who again easily started to control Xavier's genes in Scan 3.

more evidence to this is Apoc stated jean is a mutant and more, as she had the Phoenix in her. This in turn as stated in the second scan made her immune to control only through the Phoenix Force.

There is nothing stated as "telepathy" about it, and Xavier with massive prep and special training/gear was no match. Only the Phoenix Force. So the helmet is not working unless you have proof of his powers stated as the same as "telepathy". Notice too all the mutants have full control of their minds, able to think and talk fine, just not their powers or bodies. More evidence to the fact.

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MasterOfEvil

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@masterofevil said:

@decaf_wizard: because when Xavier shows up, he says that he was the only one strong enough to block apoc's telepathic control powers. So Magneto is protected by his helmet, so it's not a mismatch.

Not really. Wolverine is for the most part immune to TP and he was affected. Also Xavier failed horribly to combat on a strict TP way.

Cable again states in Scan 1 that Apoc is not TPing people, using his powers of mutant DNA control. Scan 2 shows Xavier telepathic powers in no shape or form working on Apoc control of the mutants, and Xaver powers were simply negated by Apoc who again easily started to control Xavier's genes in Scan 3.

more evidence to this is Apoc stated jean is a mutant and more, as she had the Phoenix in her. This in turn as stated in the second scan made her immune to control only through the Phoenix Force.

There is nothing stated as "telepathy" about it, and Xavier with massive prep and special training/gear was no match. Only the Phoenix Force. So the helmet is not working unless you have proof of his powers stated as the same as "telepathy". Notice too all the mutants have full control of their minds, able to think and talk fine, just not their powers or bodies. More evidence to the fact.

in the last panel Xavier says its psychic control

No Caption Provided

plus the TP was working until it started to not work. Same thing happened with the SHIELD weapons and him growing armor. They don't say it clearly, but it looks like Apoc can adapt to whatever is thrown at him after a while.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@masterofevil: oh wow, nice. Your right then. I just read the issue, and they kept saying DNA control, not Psychic, yet in this one scan and one scan alone its now Psychic.

However this brings up the second problem. The Helmet only works on the mind, and again....

  • 1) Stated several times to control Genes, even if it is psychic base its not the mind being affected.
  • 2) Many foes can control the mind via Hormones, Hypnotizm, Soul Possessing, ect and all those ways do not get egated from wearing a helmet design for direct brain mental attacks.
  • 3) No one is mind control, everyone has full control of their minds. So its more than the typical mind control Xavier would do to Mags honestly right there.

I still backing the Helmet no negating it. It makes no sense for it to. By your argument, the Helmet would negate Purple Man mind control, and it does not. Different form of mental control.

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darklord_apoc

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#15  Edited By darklord_apoc

@primez0ne said:

Ult Apocalypse. IIRC he could absorb mutant's powers.

From what I read in those comics, he needs to either kill the mutant or take a body part from a mutant before he can take his/her powers. What's interesting is that he eventually builds up a resistance to whatever he's hit with (picture above is from after he gets hit by missiles).

But after reading the magneto respect thread, i'm still not sure who would win.

Not true... Wolverine attacked him and he was able to take away his healing ability from Wolverine when Wolvie attacked him, and his moved his neck and snapped Wolvies arm off with his neck. So this would be a stomp!! Apocalypse was also able to deal with the Phoenix until she used her full powers against him.... but then again when Rick Remender was writing the Uncanny X-Force and Uncanny Avengers, he made it known that Apocalypse's armor is fully celestial!! That was why Archangel and Weapon X with it was able to beat Jean Grey as the Phoenix, so Earth 616 Apocalypse is more powerful than the Ultimate version, and both are more powerful than Magneto....

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MasterOfEvil

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@darklord_apoc: you have a point there, but it seems more like anyone who got a celestial upgrade can take on the phoenix. I've read through nearly every 616 apoc storyline and nothing he's done suggests he can take on the phoenix.

Plus, 616 apoc is like 85% metal, so Magneto would kill him easy.

I read the magneto respect thread and I googled Apoc vs magneto. Its absurd that Mags doesn't rule the world by now lolz

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MasterOfEvil

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adamTRMM

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#18  Edited By adamTRMM

@sirfizzwhizz said:

You forgot one major power.

No Caption Provided

He simply controls the actions of any mutant in a city wide vicinity via Gene manipulation.

Magneto is his puppet. His Psy defenses or helmet is no defense.

First thing first, it took him time to absorb Wolverine's powers, so it's not like he does automatically. That's forgetting that Ultimate X-gene was revealed to be an absolutely different thing than 616 one.

And Magneto's helmet blocked even Mathew Malloy. Apocalypse ain't going through this, telepathically he's immune.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@adamtrmm:

First thing first, it took him time to absorb Wolverine's powers, so it's not like he does automatically. That's forgetting that Ultimate X-gene was revealed to be an absolutely different thing than 616 one.

No its not. They are both Mutants, the only difference is the X-Gene was accidentally made by scientist in 1610 while in 616 its made by Celestial. Assuming both with stated X Genes is radically different is just desperate rationalization.

And Magneto's helmet blocked even Mathew Malloy. Apocalypse ain't going through this, telepathically he's immune.

because he wears a helmet design to block and block only Psy attacks to the brain and not the body? No.

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adamTRMM

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#20  Edited By adamTRMM

@sirfizzwhizz:

No its not. They are both Mutants, the only difference is the X-Gene was accidentally made by scientist in 1610 while in 616 its made by Celestial. Assuming both with stated X Genes is radically different is just desperate rationalization.

It's a thing to consider. They are different reality, to assume otherwise is your speculation since you claim X-gene made by Celestials (which was never confirmed for 616 as far as I know) and by human scientists is one and the same.

because he wears a helmet design to block and block only Psy attacks to the brain and not the body? No.

Xavier already blocked him. What are you talking about?

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SirFizzWhizz

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@adamtrmm said:

@sirfizzwhizz:

No its not. They are both Mutants, the only difference is the X-Gene was accidentally made by scientist in 1610 while in 616 its made by Celestial. Assuming both with stated X Genes is radically different is just desperate rationalization.

It's a thing to consider. They are different reality, to assume otherwise is your speculation since you claim X-gene made by Celestials (which was never confirmed for 616 as far as I know) and by human scientists is one and the same.

because he wears a helmet design to block and block only Psy attacks to the brain and not the body? No.

Xavier already blocked him. What are you talking about?

I assume both are stated X genes, and both are alternate realities of the same universe. I assume this is neutral universe where powers and such are interchangable, and to say otherwise is a pathetic attempt to find a way for your bias to pick a winner.

No he did not. He was overpowered. To block is to suggest he stop Apoc, he failed miserably. neither Xavier or Cable could figure out why.

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adamTRMM

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@sirfizzwhizz:

I assume both are stated X genes, and both are alternate realities of the same universe. I assume this is neutral universe where powers and such are interchangable, and to say otherwise is a pathetic attempt to find a way for your bias to pick a winner.

Absolutely wrong. Galactus/Gah-Lak-Tus - different entities, and so are Thanos, Vision and Dormammu and many other characters and concepts, there are no abstracts in UU and actuality of magic is barely magical. There are lots of conceptually similar universes, 616 and 1610 are not the ones.

Neutral universe means powers and limitations that characters already showed within their respective universe and only a speculator can assume different genetic origins with the same title might actually mean the same origins.

My bias is only towards good arguments, want to make one? Show me something that Apocalypse done to assume he can break through a force field that withstood Thor's strike and multiple nukes.

No he did not. He was overpowered. To block is to suggest he stop Apoc, he failed miserably. neither Xavier or Cable could figure out why.

He blocked him telepathically and thus countered his control of several students. This is pure psionics, whatever you tried to make out it is not, he isn't getting through Magneto's psychic defenses.

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MasterOfEvil

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@sirfizzwhizz: He did stop apoc from controlling some of the other mutants, but when Xavier tried to attack him directly with TP, he adapted to it. Him and Cable probably thought that Xavier could take him out before that happened.

It makes no sense that they wouldn't know about that ability since they just arrived from the future.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@adamtrmm:

Absolutely wrong. Galactus/Gah-Lak-Tus - different entities, and so are Thanos, Vision and Dormammu and many other characters and concepts, there are no abstracts in UU and actuality of magic is barely magical. There are lots of conceptually similar universes, 616 and 1610 are not the ones.

Wrong again. Galactus and Gah Lak Tus were alike enough to merge since they were the same entity of different universes.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Silver Searcher even states the Gah Lak Tus is Galatus counterpart.

Ouch....

Neutral universe means powers and limitations that characters already showed within their respective universe and only a speculator can assume different genetic origins with the same title might actually mean the same origins.

Except both are from the same Marvel Multiverse, and both have X genes. Regardless.....

My bias is only towards good arguments, want to make one? Show me something that Apocalypse done to assume he can break through a force field that withstood Thor's strike and multiple nukes.

I do not think you would accept a good argument, so I might be wasting my time. As for apoc, he simply wins by tasting Magneto's powers and absorbs it for his own use like he did Xavier or Wolverine. Magento is not killing any faster than Ultimate Phoenix could, and Apoc stil has the Gene manipulation.

So strength of a force field means little here.

He blocked him telepathically and thus countered his control of several students. This is pure psionics, whatever you tried to make out it is not, he isn't getting through Magneto's psychic defenses.

yet Psionics come in many forms. Including TK which is a psychic power, yet used on Magento regardless of his helmet lol. Stated DNA manipulation whether psionic or not is stated DNA manipulation not mind. Deal with it.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: He did stop apoc from controlling some of the other mutants, but when Xavier tried to attack him directly with TP, he adapted to it. Him and Cable probably thought that Xavier could take him out before that happened.

It makes no sense that they wouldn't know about that ability since they just arrived from the future.

Xavier used his amped Psy abilities to counter DNA manipulation, makes sense. Still the DNA Manipulation is not the same as direct mental assault when it never mentally attacked anyone or stated to. Just genes.

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MasterOfEvil

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@sirfizzwhizz: He never took Xavier's powers. Phoenix stopped him before he could. Like I said earlier, he takes powers through dead bodies (he told Xavier this before he started choking him) or through ripped off body parts (Wolverine losing an arm and his healing). Cable is Wolverine from the future and has scars on his face that proves it.

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MasterOfEvil

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@sirfizzwhizz: And Xavier said that it was psychic control. Every time that it was said that it's gene manipulating, it's apoc who says it. And Cable said that Apoc was deranged.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: He never took Xavier's powers. Phoenix stopped him before he could. Like I said earlier, he takes powers through dead bodies (he told Xavier this before he started choking him) or through ripped off body parts (Wolverine losing an arm and his healing). Cable is Wolverine from the future and has scars on his face that proves it.

Dead bodies, can I get the qoute of that. i like to see it. Thanks.

@sirfizzwhizz: And Xavier said that it was psychic control. Every time that it was said that it's gene manipulating, it's apoc who says it. And Cable said that Apoc was deranged.

Tlekenisis is psychic, so is precognition, firekenisis, ect. All work on Magneto. Why does psychic control of DNA and not the mind fail again?

Deranged? it was stated several times that Apoc control Genes/DNA. Deranged or not what proof you have its the same Mind control Xavier uses when A) people are not mind controlled, just their bodies, and B) he overpowers everyone with Telepathy, and C) its it stated Mutant DNA several times?

I agree to disagree. Magneto is DNA controlled. Thats my opinion.

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MasterOfEvil

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No Caption Provided

@sirfizzwhizz: flowery speech, but he does say it. And here's more confirmation:

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If he could take powers while they were in one piece, he would have.

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darklord_apoc

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@darklord_apoc: you have a point there, but it seems more like anyone who got a celestial upgrade can take on the phoenix. I've read through nearly every 616 apoc storyline and nothing he's done suggests he can take on the phoenix.

Plus, 616 apoc is like 85% metal, so Magneto would kill him easy.

I read the magneto respect thread and I googled Apoc vs magneto. Its absurd that Mags doesn't rule the world by now lolz

Actually Earth 616 has fought a full power Jean with the Phoenix Force, but he has fought her and beat her easily when she had just one percent of the Phoenix powers (every time the Phoenix bonds with a host it leaves some of it's powers with the host).... No, Magneto would not beat Apocalypse at full power.... Maybe when he is not at full power but not a full powered up Apocalypse... Apocalypse slangs Cable around easily (unless he isn't serious when fighting Cable or weak), and Cable has advance TK, he was able to hold up an island while fighting the Silver Surfer at the same time!! Stryfe (Cable's clone) has advance TK and Psi as well, he was able to beat both Cable and Nate Grey at the same time, but in the Messiah War, Apocalypse tank all of Strfye's TK and Psi attacks and it did not even phase Apocalypse at all due to his mutant powers of regeneration and his celestial armor, and Apocalypse just used one attack to K.O Stryfe....

En saba Nur may not have fought a Jean with the full Phoenix Force (not talking about the White Crown Phoenix she is mulitversal) but Archangel did fight AOA Phoenix and he easily beat her and knocked her out, and he had the same armor that Apocalypse had, even though he was not use to it and all it's powers like En Saba Nur was, he still was able to best Jean.... Weapon X from AOA timeline also held the mantle of Apocalypse and had his celestial armor and he also was able to beat Jean Grey with the Phoenix Force...

So Magneto only beat Apocalypse in AOA timeline, and that was because at first him and Nate Grey were attacking Apocalypse with everything they had, and even then Apocalypse was weak but still powerful enough to beat Magneto... The reason Magneto won was because while Apocalypse was bragging and talking (how must villains do lol) Magneto was able to concentrate on one fatal attack to kill Apocalypse, so in other words Apocalypse was not fighting back while Magneto was laying on the ground, and Nate Grey's and Magneto's attacks before that was able to hurt Apocalypse... Magneto did not kill Apocalypse on his own, he just finished him off by luck.... Would you say if Apocalypse was taking him seriously that Magneto could have still had time to concentrate to finish Apocalypse off? No right? Apocalypse in that timeline was able to kill the Garden Celestial (we don't know how he did it, but if you read Age of Apocalypse you will know that Apocalypse uses his own powers when fighting someone, and he has even said that only the weak rely on weapons to Bishop) Magneto is very powerful but I don't see how he could win against a full powered Apocalypse that is serious about him..

Earth 616 Apocalypse has more high showings than low showings, but his low showings is what everyone wants to pick at... This Apocalypse was able to tank attacks from X-Factor and Black Bolt along with the other Inhumans at full power, and Apocalypse just laughed at their attacks.. This Apocalypse was also able to go toe to toe with the High Evolutionary, the same one that fought and hurt a weakened Galactus, which yes Galactus was weak but it is still a high feat for High Evolutionary... Matter of fact, Apocalypse was taunting the High Evolutionary and was able to move so fast that not even his lasers were able to tag Apocalypse... It was like Apocalypse knew when the High Evolutionary was going to attack and fast enough to dodge them, and I believe lasers go at FTL speeds, and High Evolutionary was close enough to Apocalypse to where his attacks shouldn't have missed.................................................................. Apocalypse has also fought Loki and embarrassed Loki by snatching him up and putting him inside one of his machines to drain Loki's powers.... Loki did escape, but when he did he left and didn't dare to challenge Apocalypse after that....

In Uncanny Avengers Volume 2 Apocalypse challenged Unworthy Thor and was tossing him around like nothing and toying with him, he allowed Thor to hit him with his ax Jabjorn to prove that his Celestial tech cannot be destroyed.... Unworthy Thor even went to Odin and Odin warned Thor to leave Apocalypse be, but Thor was blood lusted and hated the fact that Apocalypse had almost killed him because Apocalypse had hit him so hard that it sent shock waves 100 miles wide (I believe) and would've separated Thor's head from his spine if not for his insane durability, but even then Thor almost died and had to retreat, but as I was saying, Odin told Thor just to leave it be... Kang (disguised as Loki) told Thor that there was only one spell that could penetrate and get thru Apocalypse's Celestial Armor to kill him, so Kang used Thor to cast the spell on his ax.... Kang himself was scared to death of Apocalypse, and Kang has so much powers at his disposal but not any that could kill Apocalypse... So Thor went after Apocalypse again while blood lusted, and was still getting beat... He even threw his ax as fast as he could at Apocalypse and Apocalypse caught it and threw it so fast back at Thor that Thor had no way of dodging it, so it had hit him, and yes Apocalypse was gloating trying to make Thor mad as AOA did with Magneto, but Apocalypse didn't know of the spell casted on Jarbjorn, so he allowed Thor to hit him again with it, and Thor did and it almost killed Apocalypse, but it didn't.... Apocalypse after even blew up his own ship to try and kill Thor and Apocalypse survived the explosion and the attack by Jabjorn! Note, even the Apocalypse Twins were able to kill the Garden Celestial with the same weapon Unworthy Thor used against Apocalypse, and we all know how powerful the Celestials are!! Even that Celestial died by the attack and Apocalypse did not!!

In Axis saga, Evan turned into Apocalypse since he was the clone of En Saba Nur, and Unworthy Thor had used the same ax against him when they fought again, but since Evan was a clone and had no memory of their battle centuries ago, Unworthy Thor used that to his advantage, but he still had to hit Apocalypse off guard!! Thor still did not succeed in killing him, and then the Absorbing Man absorbed the magic metal off of Thor's ax and he also had got a hit in on Apocalypse, and that still didn't kill him!! Inbetween the battle Apocalypse was able to one shot Kluh while he was hurt from the ax, and Kluh is Hulk's Hulk.... A dark blood lusted version of the Hulk, and it was stated that the version was more stronger than Savage Hulk by the writer... I really do not use that as an example since Kluh doesn't have anywhere near the feats as Savage Hulk, but I do use it when people lowball and bring up Apocalypse's low showings, but even thou he doesn't have near the feats he was able to resist Scarlet Witch one of her powerful spells, and by him screaming he was able to knock down the Avengers and they were nervous to go after him to battle him... Apocalypse was able to one shot that version of the Hulk twice I believe...

So yes Apocalypse at full power isn't a joke and he is in fact up there with the best.... He does have a few low showings due to PIS but then again so does Thanos and Darkseid also.... There shouldn't be a way that Magneto could beat Apocalypse at full power, and you are more than welcome to look at the scans on my page, or ask me for a certain scan if you wish to :)

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MasterOfEvil

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1. If Jeann Grey isn't spitting out fire, it aint phoenix power regardless of what she's wearing and cable fighting silver surfer was when his powers got turned up to dangerous levels temporarily. He has never show power like that before or ever again.

2. I did read when aoa phoenix fought archangel, so you have a point there. then again, probably PIS so he could get the life seed treatment.

3. Where did it say that Apocalypse was weakened while fighting magneto during aoa??? Where's the scan of the celestial gardener during aoa??? I recall Apocalypse needing Holocaust to jump in to help him after he ran from nate and mags. and mageto can control metal on the molecular level, which fatal against a guy stuffed with techno-organic blood.

4. Apoc vs loki and high evolutionary were good showings, but some people (can't remember where) claimed the writing was really inconsistent back then. apoc was shown have trouble against people who were nowhere as powerful (blood of apocalypse arc while he was at full strength), so I dunno.

5. What character with a name and backstory hasn't beaten teen thor??? I've seen Wasp beat the crap out of Kang, so he can't really be that tough. Teen Thor with the enchanted axe got one good shot in and Apocalypse ran immediately after.

6. Grown up unworthy Thor would have killed Evan if some other prson didn't sneak up on him and absorbing man would not have killed cuz he was good at the time. He did smack Apoc around pretty well however. As for the power of celestials, that gardener celestial was curious of the twins and didn't try and defend itself. Besides, usually when you hit anyone in the head with an axe, they die.

7. he didn't one shot Kluh. Kluh took a blast from nova from inside his he and was fine. a punch from apoc can send him through a wall, but it was not a one shot.

8. how does apocalypse, who is covered head to toe in metal and has a techno virus stop magneto going aoa all over again???

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@sirfizzwhizz: namor's one tough cookie, no doubt about it, but that might a sign of WIS. Thanos took mjolnir to the temple and didn't look as hurt, which makes what namor did to him ridiculous.

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1. If Jeann Grey isn't spitting out fire, it aint phoenix power regardless of what she's wearing and cable fighting silver surfer was when his powers got turned up to dangerous levels temporarily. He has never show power like that before or ever again.

2. I did read when aoa phoenix fought archangel, so you have a point there. then again, probably PIS so he could get the life seed treatment.

3. Where did it say that Apocalypse was weakened while fighting magneto during aoa??? Where's the scan of the celestial gardener during aoa??? I recall Apocalypse needing Holocaust to jump in to help him after he ran from nate and mags. and mageto can control metal on the molecular level, which fatal against a guy stuffed with techno-organic blood.

4. Apoc vs loki and high evolutionary were good showings, but some people (can't remember where) claimed the writing was really inconsistent back then. apoc was shown have trouble against people who were nowhere as powerful (blood of apocalypse arc while he was at full strength), so I dunno.

5. What character with a name and backstory hasn't beaten teen thor??? I've seen Wasp beat the crap out of Kang, so he can't really be that tough. Teen Thor with the enchanted axe got one good shot in and Apocalypse ran immediately after.

6. Grown up unworthy Thor would have killed Evan if some other prson didn't sneak up on him and absorbing man would not have killed cuz he was good at the time. He did smack Apoc around pretty well however. As for the power of celestials, that gardener celestial was curious of the twins and didn't try and defend itself. Besides, usually when you hit anyone in the head with an axe, they die.

7. he didn't one shot Kluh. Kluh took a blast from nova from inside his he and was fine. a punch from apoc can send him through a wall, but it was not a one shot.

8. how does apocalypse, who is covered head to toe in metal and has a techno virus stop magneto going aoa all over again???

First of all, that is untrue, I mean even Scott has seen the Phoenix aura around Jean Grey during the whole Inferno arc, so just because she doesn't shoot out fire all the time doesn't mean none of the powers of the Phoenix are inside of her, and as I said a portion, not a lot, and it has been stated that once the Phoenix possesses you that A PORTION of it's powers remain..

Second of all, the Phoenix also had fought Weapon X with Apocalypse's armor as well and lost just as bad...

Third of all, you need to put 2 and 2 together, if Nate Grey (one of the most powerful TK and Psi users there is) was helping Magneto who stated that they were giving it their all, then how could it not weakened him? I will give an example: Betty is fighting Jean and Kelly and both are jumping Betty giving it their all, but Betty survives and then fights Jean, and Jean somehow kills Betty by hitting her one good time, wouldn't that tell you that Betty was weak by the jumping, if she wasn't and Jean was more stronger than her then wouldn't Betty have been killed by Jean when Kelly and her were jumping Betty? Remember that was an example.... Now the same goes for Apocalypse, if Magneto was more powerful than Apocalypse then why didn't Apocalypse die when both him and Nate Grey were jumping him? How does it make sense that when Magneto had the advantage and help that he couldn't kill Apocalypse? Nothing changed when they fought again and Magneto didn't have any amps, so the logically reason is because their first attack weakened him... How can you not see that by Apocalypse tanking both their attacks puts him above Magneto? Nate Grey isn't just some weak person that was helping Magneto, he was the chosen one, one of the most powerful in AOA besides Jean and Apocalypse himself..

Third of all, Apocalypse didn't tell Holocaust to help him that I know of and I have the issues here and will look it up.... Holocaust just jumped in and kicked Nate but it wasn't because Apocalypse told him too.. All Apocalypse said was "let them fight and kill each other" when he knocked Magneto to the floor.... The scan doesn't show how he killed him but it is in Uncanny X-Force volume 5 thou where it talks about how Apocalypse got the Life Seed, and killed the Garden Celestial to take it from him.. I said that even thou there isn't a scan showing how he killed him, that Apocalypse believes only the strong use their own powers and strengths against their foe, and it makes sense because that is usually what Apocalypse does.... Unlike other villains he doesn't rely on magic items or anything but his own powers, and of course his Celestial tech... So even thou it just states Apocalypse killed the Garden Celestial, it's not in Apocalypse's character to use anything besides his own powers to kill...

Fourth of all, Apocalypse had many more good showings besides that making him constantly powerful and one being when he took on X-Factor, and the Inhumans shooting at him all at the same time, so as with Thanos, Magneto, and Darkseid; Apocalypse has some bad showings and good ones that are constant...

Fifth of all, that isn't the point and I can name a lot of villains that have beat Thor as well too, but Apocalypse didn't just beat him and could've killed him but he was treating him like a ragdoll and playing around with him, and the point is that out of all things they had to use a special kind of spell to do any damage to Apocalypse's armor... It was stated that it was the only thing that could hurt a full powered Apocalypse... Kang beat the Avengers how many times with prep and power ups? He stated that no matter what he does Apocalypse still wins, and that was his whole purpose to kidnap the Apocalypse Twins... Also if you are trying to say he ran from Thor because he was scared of him, then it doesn't make sense to explode his ship to try and kill Thor does it? Apocalypse knew he would survive and he did...

Sixth of all, maybe but he also had every advantage and he wasn't fighting against a mature Apocalypse that was experienced either, plus he got him from behind also.... Thor remembered the fight with him and Apocalypse but since this was a child clone of Apocalypse, he had no idea... Absorbing Man was able to get hits in because Apocalypse was already weak from the attack by Thor.. Point is that even after all their attacks it didn't even K.O Apocalypse at all.... Also in Uncanny Avengers the Celestials aren't stupid, he seen Genocide's forces being attacked by the Apocalypse Twins, and yes they hit him in the head but just like he was hit in the head Apocalypse was hit several times which he should've been dead as well....

Seventh of all, Apocalypse did one shot him and knocked him out twice matter of fact and we all know how strong Hulk is!! I mean it wasn't PIS because even Rick Remender stated how vastly powerful Apocalypse is, and Rick also loved the Hulk also so he must feel Apocalypse is more powerful than Kluh because its not like it was a one on one fight where Apocalypse wasn't injured when he done that, but it was the complete opposite, he was injured, and one can argue that Evan as Apocalypse isn't as strong or as powerful than En Saba Nur, who had years of fighting and mastering his Celestial tech, that he himself said took him years to do, and he still hasn't unlocked all of it's secrets, or he would be as powerful as the Celestials or even more... That was the whole reason the "Twelve" story arc existed....

Eighth of all, his body isn't just made of metal it is Celestial tech, if it was just pure metal then why didn't Magneto kill him the time him and Nate Grey fought him together? The whole purpose was to stop Apocalypse and kill him... Why didn't Magneto just kill him when him and Bishop fought him 2 on one? So, yes his Celestial tech protects him which is why he couldn't those 2 times I stated when Magneto had back up....

Ninth of all, so you want to go by a low showing and call the other high showings PIS like the one where he fought High Evolutionary and Loki? Hmmm that is not fair on your part... Magneto got beat how many times by people he shouldn't of been beat by? So should I go by that and ignore his high showings like you are doing with Apocalypse? I mean "BOA" was a low showing of Apocalypse unless you think Stryfe would lose to that team of X-Men? So either Apocalypse wasn't at full power which I don't think he was, or the whole story was just filled of PIS and isn't constant with his other stories... I feel other writers ignored that story because the next time we see Apocalypse he was a little boy, and the Celestials wanted to use him, and brought him back to life at the end of the story, so you mean to tell me they brought him back to life and all that just to make him a child again?

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MasterOfEvil

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@darklord_apoc: I didn't mention apoc vs strife or vs Scott and phoenix jean because those are showings of apocalypse from a future timeline. I'm focused on the current timeline or the alternate timelines that you brought up.

And if celestial tech protected him from magneto's powers, he wouldn't have been torn apart at all

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@darklord_apoc: I didn't mention apoc vs strife or vs Scott and phoenix jean because those are showings of apocalypse from a future timeline. I'm focused on the current timeline or the alternate timelines that you brought up.

And if celestial tech protected him from magneto's powers, he wouldn't have been torn apart at all

True it is in the future but nothing changed from reading it, his powers were still the same, and the only reason Strfye beat Apocalypse the first time in Xcutioner Song was because Apocalypse was at his weakest and Strfye knew he couldn't handle Apocalypse alone.... That is why you have to put 2 and 2 together, Apocalypse endured physical attacks from Nate and Magnus, neither one was powerful to beat him alone, and Magneto told Nate "give it all you got" meaning Magneto was doing the same since he was blasting Apocalypse the same time as Nate was, but did Magneto rip him apart even with help? So either Apocalypse was weakened for Magneto to kill him, or it was pis? Because Magneto fought him more than once, and has ripped Apocalypse's guards apart, and even ripped Holocaust apart, which is why he wears that life support suite and why he has nothing but energy and skeleton, Magneto is powerful and Holocaust didn't wear metal for Magneto to do that, but I assume he was able to due to iron in his blood, so Apocalypse Celestial tech had to of helped him against Magneto, or he would've been ripped up like Holocaust.... Apocalypse isn't invincible by no means even with his Celestial tech.... He has to inhabit other bodies because his power and T.O consume his body.... It has been stated that his power is so great that he cannot contain it alone so he goes from body to body.... So when it weakens him he either has to find a new body or go to his chambers and rejuvenate himself.... Apocalypse at full power though is hard to beat much less kill and so far the only known things that can get passed his armor is the Life Seed and Jabajorn.....

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MasterOfEvil

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@darklord_apoc: agreed, and stated in The Adventure of Cyclops and Phoenix that the amount of time that it takes for a new body to burn out due to his slowly but surely increasing power, which is why when he's visibly an old man in future, his power was like a tidal wave. However, he not like that in the present day. Read the Blood of Apocalypse arc and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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#39  Edited By adamTRMM


No Caption Provided

Silver Searcher even states the Gah Lak Tus is Galatus counterpart.

Ouch....

Did you just show me a scan where SS actually CONFIRMS and even explains how they are two different entities to support your illogical point via "counterpart" reference? Haha this is going to be even funnier than I thought.

It isn't even an ouch, it's masochism.

Made me want to post this:

No Caption Provided

Left for interpretation.....

Except both are from the same Marvel Multiverse, and both have X genes. Regardless.....

No Caption Provided

It's so funny that this situation even mirrors our own, an artificial "X-gene" that has nothing to do with 616 one. But, but Marvel multiverse!!!! Crazy right?

That's "basic mutant science" for you, I bet you can prove that UX-gene is one and the same, you're the "Ultimate expert" right?

I do not think you would accept a good argument, so I might be wasting my time.

Very thoughtful, did you have any help here? You call me out for bias cause "reasons", but what's going on for real is anytime (from what I've seen of course) people say "Ultimate character goes down" your jimmies get cracking on left and right, so you better just drop that pathetic of some sort of high ground you don't really have and try harder because until now your debating is so disappointing I don't know why I actually waste my time here.

As for apoc, he simply wins by tasting Magneto's powers and absorbs it for his own use like he did Xavier or Wolverine. Magento is not killing any faster than Ultimate Phoenix could, and Apoc stil has the Gene manipulation.

Prove that 616 X-gene=1610 X-gene. Simple, right? And since Apoc never manipulated any non-UX-gene characters, it's safe to say, he can only do that much. Both FF and SHIELD weren't under his control. Then there's that question, since Xavier blocked his control, he broke his TP, not DNA manipulation, otherwise that would mean that.... Xavier is a DNA manipulator himself! And since he isn't, that means Apoc's affecting people on DNA level to submit them is maybe noteven the deal right here cause:

No Caption Provided

So it was just psychic control, not a "DNA" control that you suggest here.

And then there's your baseless (and you're supposed to be an "Ultimate expert" right?) statement of how Apoc just took mutant powers for himself. What? Show me just a time when he took a power of a still living mutant. It's specifically stated he has to kill them first and that's why he's rampaging, and to prove my point:

Here we witness how Sinister promises Apocalypse ten dead mutants, "souls" as he says which unambiguously says that he needs them dead to usurp their powers and that's exactly what happens after he succeeds in killing them, Apocalypse rises. Now the question is, maybe Apocalypse is a different beast already? He doesn't have that limitation? But he does as it was shown in his encounter with Wolverine, he couldn't "just" mimic his healing factor, we don't even know if he eventually did even with Logan's severed arm in his hands, but what we do know is that:

No Caption Provided

He needed Xavier dead to take his powers. And unlike all that nonsense you spread here, that's a fact.

Will you deal with it?

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SirFizzWhizz

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#40  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

@adamtrmm: Already addressed all this. I will concede on killing a mutant to take their powers, that seems supported, but controlling X Genes is still pretty clear.

Apoc controls Magnetos DNA.

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adamTRMM

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#41  Edited By adamTRMM

Like I said wasn't worth the time, but at least people interested in this fight can learn from it.

Magneto rips him to pieces.

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@adamtrmm said:

Like I said wasn't worth the time, but at least people interested in this fight can learn from it.

Magneto rips him to pieces.

Magneto dies like Cable and Xavier almost did, the difference is that Xavier actually went to Cable's time to train how to kill Apocalypse, and he still lost, him and Cable at the same time.... How come Apocalypse didn't need to kill Wolverine to take his healing powers? He doesn't have to kill the mutant to take their powers or he would've had to kill Wolverine also right? Sinister killing 10 mutants was like a ritual to bring Apocalypse into this world, but once the ritual was over he didn't need any more mutants killed or Wolverine would've been killed right? I mean I can look for the scan where Wolverine's healing powers didn't work due to him being a mutant, if that would make a difference? Also Phoenix >>>>> Magneto!! If the Phoenix had to use all of her power to kill him then how is Magneto going to rip him apart?

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@adamtrmm said:

Like I said wasn't worth the time, but at least people interested in this fight can learn from it.

Magneto rips him to pieces.

Magneto dies like Cable and Xavier almost did, the difference is that Xavier actually went to Cable's time to train how to kill Apocalypse, and he still lost, him and Cable at the same time.... How come Apocalypse didn't need to kill Wolverine to take his healing powers? He doesn't have to kill the mutant to take their powers or he would've had to kill Wolverine also right? Sinister killing 10 mutants was like a ritual to bring Apocalypse into this world, but once the ritual was over he didn't need any more mutants killed or Wolverine would've been killed right? I mean I can look for the scan where Wolverine's healing powers didn't work due to him being a mutant, if that would make a difference? Also Phoenix >>>>> Magneto!! If the Phoenix had to use all of her power to kill him then how is Magneto going to rip him apart?

^

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@darklord_apoc: agreed, and stated in The Adventure of Cyclops and Phoenix that the amount of time that it takes for a new body to burn out due to his slowly but surely increasing power, which is why when he's visibly an old man in future, his power was like a tidal wave. However, he not like that in the present day. Read the Blood of Apocalypse arc and you'll see what I'm talking about.

The whole Blood of Apocalypse arc is a piece of crap lol... I mean and none of it made sense... The Celestials had Apocalypse survive for a huge plan but next time we see him he is a child again? Plus they made that version of Apocalypse pretty weak besides the fact that he was tanking Ice Man's attacks and we know how powerful he is...

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#45  Edited By adamTRMM

@darklord_apoc:

And who said he actually took his healing factor? Educate me please.

Now, you completely ignored the scan where Apocalypse himself unambiguously states that he has yet to take Xavier's powers, when he's dead. Address that instance please.

Phoenix is definitely above Magneto, she warped reality and resurrected Warren, no denial here. Problem is, there's no other character out of those who fought Apoc that was on Magneto's level. There was fodder, and there was Apoc (until Phoenix). Then there's also a deal that Phoenix did actually stomp Apoc, she wasn't struggling and all Apocalypse achieved is one singe blow against her. She was burning him alive with her mere presence and after that blow she made him beg. Apocalypse was no challenge for her, so bringing her is not all that relevant.

Now, tell what has Apoc shown to assume he can:

  • Resist his nervous system being shut.
  • Resist being atomized.
  • Resist being crushed inside of his own armor.
  • Resist being cut to death with ferrous objects.
  • Resist having his blood flow reversed or ripped off.

Your turn :)

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@adamtrmm said:

@darklord_apoc:

And who said he actually took his healing factor? Educate me please.

Now, you completely ignored the scan where Apocalypse himself unambiguously states that he has yet to take Xavier's powers, when he's dead. Address that instance please.

Phoenix is definitely above Magneto, she warped reality and resurrected Warren, no denial here. Problem is, there's no other character out of those who fought Apoc that was on Magneto's level. There was fodder, and there was Apoc (until Phoenix). Then there's also a deal that Phoenix did actually stomp Apoc, she wasn't struggling and all Apocalypse achieved is one singe blow against her. She was burning him alive with her mere presence and after that blow she made him beg. Apocalypse was no challenge for her, so bringing her is not all that relevant.

Now, tell what has Apoc shown to assume he can:

  • Resist his nervous system being shut.
  • Resist being atomized.
  • Resist being crushed inside of his own armor.
  • Resist being cut to death with ferrous objects.
  • Resist having his blood flow reversed or ripped off.

Your turn :)

First of all you missed some key points in "Ultimate X-Men" issue 91... Apocalypse also called out to the mutants saying he controls their genes, he said that to the remaining mutants alive, so was he lying? I will quote word for word what he said: " You've seen but a shadow of my abilities. I can drive your mutant genes, and work my way into your subconscious thoughts, I can control you all!! Mutants are my puppets" this was taking for "Ultimate X-Men 91"... So why did he bother to bring up the mutant genes and say that mutants are his puppets? He also goes on to say "Your friends, your family, any mutant you've had contact with, anyone they've had contact with, I command you all!" Meaning he has control over ALL mutants not just the ones he killed or that statement wouldn't of made sense correct? If I am not mistaking the X-men had contact with Magneto before right? Basically to sum it down he is talking about all mutants...

Another example of this was before he fought Wolverine he stated this, "You know not what you face, child. I can see your DNA. Your mutant GENES speak to me. I hear their song. I can reach out and take them if I want.." Meaning he doesn't have to kill the mutants to take their DNA from them, but I mean he can but nowhere does it say he has to kill them to take it from them... He again tells Wolverine " I will make your healing abilities my own. Your mutant gift is mines to take." All this was in Ultimate X-Men 91, and I have all the issues, and if this still isn't enough to prove he does in fact have control over their genes, then I will look for other examples in the other issues.... If you wish you can look or google the issue up and read up on what it is about and it should tell you, but I have the issues so I don't need to... I know in one of the issues it was stated that since Apocalypse was the first mutant in this universe that all of his genes are in every mutant making it so he can take their genes if he wants to since they rightfully belong to him and he was the start of the X Gene!

Phoenix herself said she underestimated his powers when he was able to get a punch in on her and when he didn't die right away, and true she did beat him easy but look at how many pages it took after, so no Magneto would not beat this Apocalypse at all or Earth 616 Apocalypse (but that is for a whole new discussion)

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@adamtrmm said:

@darklord_apoc:

And who said he actually took his healing factor? Educate me please.

Now, you completely ignored the scan where Apocalypse himself unambiguously states that he has yet to take Xavier's powers, when he's dead. Address that instance please.

Phoenix is definitely above Magneto, she warped reality and resurrected Warren, no denial here. Problem is, there's no other character out of those who fought Apoc that was on Magneto's level. There was fodder, and there was Apoc (until Phoenix). Then there's also a deal that Phoenix did actually stomp Apoc, she wasn't struggling and all Apocalypse achieved is one singe blow against her. She was burning him alive with her mere presence and after that blow she made him beg. Apocalypse was no challenge for her, so bringing her is not all that relevant.

Now, tell what has Apoc shown to assume he can:

  • Resist his nervous system being shut.
  • Resist being atomized.
  • Resist being crushed inside of his own armor.
  • Resist being cut to death with ferrous objects.
  • Resist having his blood flow reversed or ripped off.

Your turn :)

First of all you missed some key points in "Ultimate X-Men" issue 91... Apocalypse also called out to the mutants saying he controls their genes, he said that to the remaining mutants alive, so was he lying? I will quote word for word what he said: " You've seen but a shadow of my abilities. I can drive your mutant genes, and work my way into your subconscious thoughts, I can control you all!! Mutants are my puppets" this was taking for "Ultimate X-Men 91"... So why did he bother to bring up the mutant genes and say that mutants are his puppets? He also goes on to say "Your friends, your family, any mutant you've had contact with, anyone they've had contact with, I command you all!" Meaning he has control over ALL mutants not just the ones he killed or that statement wouldn't of made sense correct? If I am not mistaking the X-men had contact with Magneto before right? Basically to sum it down he is talking about all mutants...

Another example of this was before he fought Wolverine he stated this, "You know not what you face, child. I can see your DNA. Your mutant GENES speak to me. I hear their song. I can reach out and take them if I want.." Meaning he doesn't have to kill the mutants to take their DNA from them, but I mean he can but nowhere does it say he has to kill them to take it from them... He again tells Wolverine " I will make your healing abilities my own. Your mutant gift is mines to take." All this was in Ultimate X-Men 91, and I have all the issues, and if this still isn't enough to prove he does in fact have control over their genes, then I will look for other examples in the other issues.... If you wish you can look or google the issue up and read up on what it is about and it should tell you, but I have the issues so I don't need to... I know in one of the issues it was stated that since Apocalypse was the first mutant in this universe that all of his genes are in every mutant making it so he can take their genes if he wants to since they rightfully belong to him and he was the start of the X Gene!

Phoenix herself said she underestimated his powers when he was able to get a punch in on her and when he didn't die right away, and true she did beat him easy but look at how many pages it took after, so no Magneto would not beat this Apocalypse at all or Earth 616 Apocalypse (but that is for a whole new discussion)

Also if I might add that just because Apocalypse wanted to kill Xavier and the use the X Gene against him doesn't mean that he couldn't do it if Xavier was alive... So you cannot go by that.. Also it was apparent that Wolverine's healing powers were gone along with his strength as well because he stabbed Apocalypse in the neck, and Apocalypse barley turned his neck and Wolverine's arm snapped off... He showed no signs of his healing powers... But again, I just have to look for the rest of the issues, I just have 91 and 93 so far that I have found... But I mean I pointed out to you which issue that Apocalypse stated how he can control their genes in my last paragraph, he out right states it! So rather he choices to kill and then take their powers is irrelevant, but what is relevant is that he can control their genes even when they are alive... I mean Apocalypse loves to gloat and show how better he is than anyone else, so it doesn't surprise me that he choice to fight with the mutants and not just take their powers right away, and if you know Apocalypse you will know he loves a challenge and a fight, how could he have one if he just took all their powers away? It would be a easy win for him....

With Magneto he probably would've even take his powers right away either, but there is no way Magneto can win here at all.... He told the Phoenix Force that she greatly underestimated him and I will quote what she said "A mistake I wont let happen again" then she went on to tell him to take the full power of the Phoenix, and he still didn't die right away, and she is way more powerful and can do whatever Magneto can but to a higher degree, so nope there is not one chance Magnus can win this at all! Point in case!

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#48  Edited By adamTRMM

@darklord_apoc:

You're so passionate about Apoc it's so cute :) I really want to say I'm doing it without much pleasure but since you called me out and Ult Apoc is a cartoonish villain parody, here we go:

First of all you missed some key points in "Ultimate X-Men" issue 91... Apocalypse also called out to the mutants saying he controls their genes, he said that to the remaining mutants alive, so was he lying? I will quote word for word what he said: " You've seen but a shadow of my abilities. I can drive your mutant genes, and work my way into your subconscious thoughts, I can control you all!! Mutants are my puppets" this was taking for "Ultimate X-Men 91"... So why did he bother to bring up the mutant genes and say that mutants are his puppets? He also goes on to say "Your friends, your family, any mutant you've had contact with, anyone they've had contact with, I command you all!" Meaning he has control over ALL mutants not just the ones he killed or that statement wouldn't of made sense correct? If I am not mistaking the X-men had contact with Magneto before right? Basically to sum it down he is talking about all mutants...

Was he lying? I dunno, but what I know is that Xavier confirmed he's only blocking his psionic control over muties, not anything else. I addressed that point already, but with this quote and specifically this part: "I can drive your mutant genes, and work my way into your subconscious thoughts" acknowledging everything that happened it seems he was able to only control the mutants as we know he never controlled any human (SHIELD) or superhuman (FF) in this area. Once again, if Xavier has blocked him telepathically, it cannot be gene manip.

You cannot use his words to confirm what he can do or not, we go by showings, and since he never controlled "their friends, their families, or any mutant they had contact with" specifically, it's nothing but a groundless statement.

And no they didn't have a contact with Magneto, it's 616, and again, 616 X-gene=/=1610 X-gene. This is not a good argument, see the scan I posted above where Beast explains muliversal awareness of how X-genes not always work the same way. And since Ultimate X-gene is man-made while 616 is evolutionary, you just can't use this argument, in all of the subtexts. Simple. I won't debate this again.

Another example of this was before he fought Wolverine he stated this, "You know not what you face, child. I can see your DNA. Your mutant GENES speak to me. I hear their song. I can reach out and take them if I want.." Meaning he doesn't have to kill the mutants to take their DNA from them, but I mean he can but nowhere does it say he has to kill them to take it from them... He again tells Wolverine " I will make your healing abilities my own. Your mutant gift is mines to take." All this was in Ultimate X-Men 91, and I have all the issues, and if this still isn't enough to prove he does in fact have control over their genes, then I will look for other examples in the other issues.... If you wish you can look or google the issue up and read up on what it is about and it should tell you, but I have the issues so I don't need to... I know in one of the issues it was stated that since Apocalypse was the first mutant in this universe that all of his genes are in every mutant making it so he can take their genes if he wants to since they rightfully belong to him and he was the start of the X Gene!

That's true, he did see that Wolverine possess a healing factor, but if he's a so potent gene manip as you claim, why couldn't he just mimic it? He said "I will make your healing ability my own.... you will be the first to fall" while attacking him, like you know, he needed him dead to take his power. Meaning he does have to kill them, what did he SHOW to prove he doesn't? Did he use Cyclops, Jean, Storm, or any other mutant powers that were around him? No? Good.

But it was said and shown that he needed them dead, with Sinister before, and then with Xavier, again you ignore what I say.

No, it was stated that Apocalypse CLAIMS to be the first mutant and thus thinking they all belong to him, but Ultimate mutants were retconned into a Weapon X product and first mutant to be.... Wolverine! So no, wrong again. The crap that is UU now.

If you consider him melting for like 8 pages a good showing, then I'm impressed indeed. :)

Also if I might add that just because Apocalypse wanted to kill Xavier and the use the X Gene against him doesn't mean that he couldn't do it if Xavier was alive... So you cannot go by that..

No, you cannot go by anything else since it's the only showing he has.

Also it was apparent that Wolverine's healing powers were gone along with his strength as well because he stabbed Apocalypse in the neck, and Apocalypse barley turned his neck and Wolverine's arm snapped off... He showed no signs of his healing powers...

So you're saying when Wolverine with his severed arm was back for the battle had no healing factor? Really?.....

He showed no signs of his healing powers...

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Because that's how people who had their arms chopped off recently act right after.

But I mean I pointed out to you which issue that Apocalypse stated how he can control their genes in my last paragraph, he out right states it! So rather he choices to kill and then take their powers is irrelevant, but what is relevant is that he can control their genes even when they are alive... I mean Apocalypse loves to gloat and show how better he is than anyone else, so it doesn't surprise me that he choice to fight with the mutants and not just take their powers right away, and if you know Apocalypse you will know he loves a challenge and a fight, how could he have one if he just took all their powers away? It would be a easy win for him.

That's all works for a story, but not a battle. We go by what we're shown, and his gene manip is moot at best, so I go by actual raw power and skill which Magneto has a very potent 50 years advantage over him.

With Magneto he probably would've even take his powers right away either, but there is no way Magneto can win here at all.... He told the Phoenix Force that she greatly underestimated him and I will quote what she said "A mistake I wont let happen again" then she went on to tell him to take the full power of the Phoenix, and he still didn't die right away, and she is way more powerful and can do whatever Magneto can but to a higher degree, so nope there is not one chance Magnus can win this at all! Point in case!

All you have right here is a hyperbole, what I have is a guy who still can rip his blood off, can crush him with tons upon tons of ferrous components, can shut his nervous system off, or can simply cut him to pieces (like Wolverine did, and Ultimate Adamantium is a pale imitation of 616 one, which Magneto already liquified effortlessly).

You never countered any of that, that's the answer still.

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lettsplay10

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@adamtrmm: Cable is future Wolverine in the this universe. The scars on his face are from when Apocalypse took his healing and threw his arm back at him. Wolverine going back to the fight with one arm is due the fact that he's a crazy person lolz. Plus, after fighting hulk, he like has a high pain tolerance.

so if magneto loses an arm... boom goes the dynamite.