Madara vs Aizen

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FaradaySloth

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#51 FaradaySloth  Online
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LeoTheGreatest

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@thousandsteps:

Being a few times above lightning would already be a quad mach feat lol.

Not actually and it’s not a feat it’s a generous estimate.

Complementing someone (in this case speed) doesn't say anything about his own speed, and it's dishonest to cap his speed at that level, not to mention Ay is faster than lightning by a considerable margin. That's not even taking Madara's enhanced precog into account.

There would be no reason to call Ay’s speed fast if Madara were as fast as you’re saying. Ay been being above lightning by a considerable amount doesn’t work either especially if you’re scaling him to Kirin based off of “both Itachi and Sasuke having MS” seeing as how Itachi showed better reactions than even EMS Sasuke against Kabuto. And Sharingan pre-cog doesn’t help if you’re too slow.

I agree that top Espadas are at quad digit mach speeds, though Starkk being quin digit is too much

It’s not a stretch seeing as how had a casual high end Quad digit to low end Quin digit mach feat. It’s not like he moved only a few dozen meters before those characters realized he even moved he moved dozens of miles away.

I'm gonna need you to quantify the potency for these attacks.

Since Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras proved that destroying Las Noches is no problem for the top Espada that puts his release alone at Island + level with his Ceros Oscuras being stronger than that and every Espada above him being stronger than that. It means LDR can put Madara down through his Susanoo several times over.

Bloodlust definitely changes the outcome, as Madara would be more compelled to use PS, which the Espadas have no way around, short of Lanza spam. Meanwhile, PS swings don't even need to land on them, their shockwaves alone will decimate them, and Kurama's TBB detonating prematurely is suicide aswell for these Espadas.

Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras alone would make more than a dent on Madara’s PS any Ceros Oscuras above it is fatal, respira breaks it down, Cero Metralleta, Los Lobos and LDR are way too much for Madara. PS Swings only cause damage to whats in the way of the swords arc dodging the entire sword would dodge the shockwave not that the shockwave would put them down anyway.

BTW the Espada aren’t even close to Base Aizen in any stat and that includes Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.

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ThousandSteps

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@leothegreatest:

@leothegreatest:

Not actually and it’s not a feat it’s a generous estimate.

There would be no reason to call Ay’s speed fast if Madara were as fast as you’re saying. Ay been being above lightning by a considerable amount doesn’t work either especially if you’re scaling him to Kirin based off of “both Itachi and Sasuke having MS” seeing as how Itachi showed better reactions than even EMS Sasuke against Kabuto. And Sharingan pre-cog doesn’t help if you’re too slow.

The scaling is simple really:

Ay in his V2 cloak >> MS Sasuke > blind, half-dead, exhausted and ill Itachi > lightning. Also, do note that in the Kabuto fight, Sasuke was being impatient, and Itachi had to save his butt multiple times because of it. Madara complementing those he considers fodder isn't anything new, and still doesn't speak for anything outside of banter.

Consistency is very much there.

It’s not a stretch seeing as how had a casual high end Quad digit to low end Quin digit mach feat. It’s not like he moved only a few dozen meters before those characters realized he even moved he moved dozens of miles away.

When operating at these speeds, moving a meter or miles faster than another doesn't speak for much.

Since Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras proved that destroying Las Noches is no problem for the top Espada that puts his release alone at Island + level with his Ceros Oscuras being stronger than that and every Espada above him being stronger than that. It means LDR can put Madara down through his Susanoo several times over

This must be the biggest disagreement with Bleach and Naruto debaters. Busting Las Noches doesn't require Island level potency, because it's essentially a huge building with large hollow parts. A Tsar bomb could wipe out cities before even denting a mountain. Cero Obscuras has insane AoE, though calling it island level in potency would be wrong. This isn't me lowballing these Espadas btw.

Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras alone would make more than a dent on Madara’s PS any Ceros Oscuras above it is fatal, respira breaks it down, Cero Metralleta, Los Lobos and LDR are way too much for Madara. PS Swings only cause damage to whats in the way of the swords arc dodging the entire sword would dodge the shockwave not that the shockwave would put them down anyway.

Respira may break it down (though since Susano'o constantly uses chakra as fuel, in theory Madara could fight the disintegrating effect), but Cero Obscuras really isn't damaging PS, neither is Cero Metralleta.

As far as damaging them is concerned, you must not realize how strong PS swings are: the shockwave alone of Madara flexing his PS yielded multi mountain levels of force for decapitating two mountains after the shockwave travelled through the meteor that decimated the army, and a few hundred meters of air atleast (and losing force as it travels), uprooting the ground in the process. None of the Espadas have shown this level of durability.

BTW the Espada aren’t even close to Base Aizen in any stat and that includes Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.

Yes Aizen is way above the Espadas, but we can’t scale his physicals to the Espadas Ceros can we? And while I have no doubts Aizen is above SE Ulq, there's not explicit proof of that he is fodder to him like the other Espadas, seeing as Ulq didn't reveal this form.

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100% Kurama is stronger than 50% Kurama+Hachibi combined (Hachibi himself is weaker then 50% Kurama).And they both created an explosion that dwarfed mountains,it might've been Island lvl or Large Island Lvl in AOE.

Madara is stronger than 100% Kurama.And they are bloodlusted.

What exactly can Aizen do here?If you gonna tell me he is stronger than Kurama bring evidence.Show feats of obliterating mountain ranges,if possible except Lanza,LN walking days are too vague,it requires too much assumptions.

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#56 FaradaySloth  Online
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100% Kurama is stronger than 50% Kurama+Hachibi combined (Hachibi himself is weaker then 50% Kurama).And they both created an explosion that dwarfed mountains,it might've been Island lvl or Large Island Lvl in AOE.

The attack was multi moutain not large island. And it was a fully charged biju bomb much to slow to tag any espada.

Madara is stronger than 100% Kurama.And they are bloodlusted.

Madara isnt stronger than 100% kurama.

What exactly can Aizen do here?If you gonna tell me he is stronger than Kurama bring evidence.Show feats of obliterating mountain ranges,if possible except Lanza,LN walking days are too vague,it requires too much assumptions.

he scales to yamma who can nuke a city with moutains in it

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#59 FaradaySloth  Online
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Madara would probably win

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LeoTheGreatest

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#62  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@thousandsteps:

Ay in his V2 cloak >> MS Sasuke > blind, half-dead, exhausted and ill Itachi > lightning. Also, do note that in the Kabuto fight, Sasuke was being impatient, and Itachi had to save his butt multiple times because of it. Madara complementing those he considers fodder isn't anything new, and still doesn't speak for anything outside of banter.

Itachi activated Susanoo that’s the way he reacted same way Sasuke activated Amateratsu faster than Ay moved even though he couldn’t really perceive him. Itachi’s reactions are still faster as he proved later. Sasuke wasn’t being impatient Itachi protected him before he can’t fight and no Madara would not call someone who he could statue fast it’s not as if he was laughing and toying with him he thought it in his mind.

When operating at these speeds, moving a meter or miles faster than another doesn't speak for much.

That’s one of the most crucial things when talking about these feats. He travelled dozens of miles before MHS characters realized he even moved.

This must be the biggest disagreement with Bleach and Naruto debaters. Busting Las Noches doesn't require Island level potency, because it's essentially a huge building with large hollow parts. A Tsar bomb could wipe out cities before even denting a mountain. Cero Obscuras has insane AoE, though calling it island level in potency would be wrong. This isn't me lowballing these Espadas btw.

Seeing how large the structures in LN are are and how large the structures between the walls alone are it does come out to those levels it’s like Fullbring Ichigo’s feat when Yukios dimension couldn’t contain his power. Ceros Oscuras which wasn’t even aimed down at Las Noches vaped half of the canopy, shook the entire structure and was putting pressure on Uryu and Orihime, it would easily vape any structure in massive range.

Respira may break it down (though since Susano'o constantly uses chakra as fuel, in theory Madara could fight the disintegrating effect), but Cero Obscuras really isn't damaging PS, neither is Cero Metralleta.

Respira would break it down like it breaks everything down there’s no way to keep creating something in the space where Repsira already aged it unless a character has a feat like that which Madara doesn’t. And Ceros Oscuras and Cero Metralleta remain lethal to Madara.

As far as damaging them is concerned, you must not realize how strong PS swings are: the shockwave alone of Madara flexing his PS yielded multi mountain levels of force for decapitating two mountains after the shockwave travelled through the meteor that decimated the army, and a few hundred meters of air atleast (and losing force as it travels), uprooting the ground in the process. None of the Espadas have shown this level of durability.

I know exactly how strong they are but the shockwaves didn’t have any affect on the immediate area. To get affected by them you’d need to be within the swings arc which again wouldn’t necessarily put the Espada down.

Yes Aizen is way above the Espadas, but we can’t scale his physicals to the Espadas Ceros can we?

It‘s funny you ask because yes, yes we can.

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Note- Komamura’s Shikai matched Loves
Note- Komamura’s Shikai matched Loves
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And while I have no doubts Aizen is above SE Ulq, there's not explicit proof of that he is fodder to him like the other Espadas, seeing as Ulq didn't reveal this form

The Espada’s followed Aizen because of his power

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meaning that SE Ulquiorra still followed him because he was still significantly weaker than Aizen.

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#63 FaradaySloth  Online
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#65 Wot_m8  Online
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#66 FaradaySloth  Online

@wot_m8 said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@erentheghoul said:
@ultimatesage said:

I'm UltimateSage, and I just dragged innocent u wotm* in this. And this is what i say too. be saying:

Loading Video...

Agreed.

totally agree

This.

completely agree, no homo tho

Me either.

I heard about it that too

how dis nigga dominating me this much....

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@wot_m8 said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@erentheghoul said:
@ultimatesage said:

I'm UltimateSage, and I just dragged innocent u wotm* in this. And this is what i say too. be saying:

Loading Video...

Agreed.

totally agree

This.

completely agree, no homo tho

Me either.

I heard about it that too

how dis nigga dominating me this much....

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............it went too far in.....................damn it I blame wot.......you win this time Mr. Sloths

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#68 Wot_m8  Online

@faradaysloth said:
@wot_m8 said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@faradaysloth said:
@ultimatesage said:
@erentheghoul said:
@ultimatesage said:

I'm UltimateSage, and I just dragged innocent u wotm* in this. And this is what i say too. be saying:

Loading Video...

Agreed.

totally agree

This.

completely agree, no homo tho

Me either.

I heard about it that too

how dis nigga dominating me this much....

No Caption Provided

............it went too far in.....................damn it I blame wot.......you win this time Mr. Sloths

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SagaTheLegend

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What

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ThousandSteps

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@leothegreatest:

Itachi activated Susanoo that’s the way he reacted same way Sasuke activated Amateratsu faster than Ay moved even though he couldn’t really perceive him. Itachi’s reactions are still faster as he proved later. Sasuke wasn’t being impatient Itachi protected him before he can’t fight and no Madara would not call someone who he could statue fast it’s not as if he was laughing and toying with him he thought it in his mind.

Itachi being faster than Sasuke as an edo tensei only proves that he was extremely debilitated when he was alive, as shown by his inability to dodge attacks he could've "easily dodged", straight outta Black Zetsu's mouth. That said, Itachi baby-sitted Sasuke, and wasn't "outspeeding" him, because he was being impatient by trying to kill Kabuto. Itachi also instinctively moved to protect Sasuke, which explicitly made him slower.

Ay isn't a statue to Madara, but the latter was definitely toying with the 5 kages, Ay included.

That’s one of the most crucial things when talking about these feats. He travelled dozens of miles before MHS characters realized he even moved.

What I meant is it makes negligible difference to move at a "only a few dozen meters"rather than "dozens of miles away." when talking about these speeds.

Seeing how large the structures in LN are are and how large the structures between the walls alone are it does come out to those levels it’s like Fullbring Ichigo’s feat when Yukios dimension couldn’t contain his power. Ceros Oscuras which wasn’t even aimed down at Las Noches vaped half of the canopy, shook the entire structure and was putting pressure on Uryu and Orihime, it would easily vape any structure in massive range

Sorry, but that feat, while impressive, doesn't come out to be island-level in potency. The walls are thick, but not thick enough to need island level potency to bust through it in attack. It's closer to multi-city region, island level potency is leagues above that. Cero Obscuras was also aimed towards Ichigo, who happened to be standing on top of the canopy, so in essence he did aim it towards the general direction of said canopy. I don't recall CO putting pressure on Uryu and Orihime (though it would make sense since they never witnessed something on that level before), I believe that was only after Ulq entered SE?

Respira would break it down like it breaks everything down there’s no way to keep creating something in the space where Repsira already aged it unless a character has a feat like that which Madara doesn’t. And Ceros Oscuras and Cero Metralleta remain lethal to Madara.

Respira breaking down PS is one thing, though the shockwaves of PS's swing would blow it away, but Cero Obscuras and Cero metralleta has shown nothing to suggest they can break through PS.

I know exactly how strong they are but the shockwaves didn’t have any affect on the immediate area. To get affected by them you’d need to be within the swings arc which again wouldn’t necessarily put the Espada down

Seeing as how PS has a massive blade and reach, the shockwaves will tag them, they will definitely be within the swings arc. As far as durability is concerned, the shockwaves alone would at worst heavily injure the Espadas, and a direct contact pastes them no questions asked.

It‘s funny you ask because yes, yes we can

There are multiple issues with that scan, but even then, all this proves is that Aizen is above Starrk's random ceros by a large margin. Where would you put Starrk's ceros at in terms of potency?

The Espada’s followed Aizen because of his power

meaning that SE Ulquiorra still followed him because he was still significantly weaker than Aizen.

I know he is way weaker than Aizen, I'm saying that I don't think he would get insta fodderized like the other Espadas.

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@thousandsteps:

Itachi being faster than Sasuke as an edo tensei only proves that he was extremely debilitated when he was alive, as shown by his inability to dodge attacks he could've "easily dodged",

In reference to the wired shuriken not the lightning which he stated no one can evade.

That said, Itachi baby-sitted Sasuke, and wasn't "outspeeding" him, because he was being impatient by trying to kill Kabuto.

First, he stopped trying to kill him at the very beginning of the fight when Itachi blocked his Kunai.

Second, trying to kill someone doesn’t make you slower.

Itachi also instinctively moved to protect Sasuke, which explicitly made him slower.

Made who slower? Itachi simply reacted faster than Sasuke at any given point.

Ay isn't a statue to Madara, but the latter was definitely toying with the 5 kages, Ay included.

Not only is he not a statue but he’s only a few times slower than Madara as shown when someone who people consider to be much faster than Ay still gets him blitzes comfortably intercepted by Madara.

Sorry, but that feat, while impressive, doesn't come out to be island-level in potency. The walls are thick, but not thick enough to need island level potency to bust through it in attack. It's closer to multi-city region, island level potency is leagues above that.

The sheer size of the area and the fact that everything would’ve been destroyed similar to the manner that Ichigo destroyed Yukios dimension which included entire mountains it should come out to those levels.

Cero Obscuras was also aimed towards Ichigo, who happened to be standing on top of the canopy, so in essence he did aim it towards the general direction of said canopy.

If someone shoots you straight to chest on the roof of a building are they aiming at the building?

I don't recall CO putting pressure on Uryu and Orihime (though it would make sense since they never witnessed something on that level before), I believe that was only after Ulq entered SE?

No R1 Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras put physical pressure on them. It wasn’t psychological pressure and when SE Ulq was fighting they were above the Canopy.

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And as a matter of fact the art of Ceros Oscuras that hit Ichigo and the Canopy was only the bottom part of the actual attack.

He was in the air already after having tanked Ichigo’s Getsuga and then blasted the Ceros Oscuras in a straight angle. If he were have actually aimed it at Las Noches he definitely would’ve destroyed the entire thing.

Respira breaking down PS is one thing, though the shockwaves of PS's swing would blow it away, but Cero Obscuras and Cero metralleta has shown nothing to suggest they can break through PS.

Respira deflects shockwaves as shown when it deflected Soifon’s Bankai and with Respira being much faster than Madara’s PS that’s definitely not helping. Cero Oscuras and Cero Metralleta are definitely lethal to Susanoo especially seeing how Cero Metralleta is leagues above Ulqs CO.

Seeing as how PS has a massive blade and reach, the shockwaves will tag them, they will definitely be within the swings arc. As far as durability is concerned, the shockwaves alone would at worst heavily injure the Espadas, and a direct contact pastes them no questions asked.

In width the blades at most around 5 meters long they aren’t getting tagged by it or it’s shockwaves which still wouldn’t heavily injure them.

There are multiple issues with that scan, but even then, all this proves is that Aizen is above Starrk's random ceros by a large margin. Where would you put Starrk's ceros at in terms of potency?

What issues?

And he casually destroyed Komamura’s Bankai which is more than 10x stronger than Love’s Shikai which overpowered Starkk‘s Ceros which are leagues above Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras which can whipe out an Island + area.

Base Aizen would do to Susanoo what he did to Komamura’s Bankai.

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ThousandSteps

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#72  Edited By ThousandSteps

@leothegreatest said:

@thousandsteps:

Itachi being faster than Sasuke as an edo tensei only proves that he was extremely debilitated when he was alive, as shown by his inability to dodge attacks he could've "easily dodged",

In reference to the wired shuriken not the lightning which he stated no one can evade.

"No one can evade" is within the context of the fight. Itachi should've not been able to evade the attack (which he actually didn't). If we were to take this statement at face value, than that would leave Kaguya at sub-lightning speed since Zetsu knows what he is talking about, being arguably the most knowledgeable character alongside Hagoromo.

That said, Itachi baby-sitted Sasuke, and wasn't "outspeeding" him, because he was being impatient by trying to kill Kabuto.

First, he stopped trying to kill him at the very beginning of the fight when Itachi blocked his Kunai.

Second, trying to kill someone doesn’t make you slower.

Reread the fight again. Sasuke was being extremely impatient, which Itachi repeatedly warned him against. He also focused on keeping his brother safe from harm at the expense of his own defenses.

Itachi also instinctively moved to protect Sasuke, which explicitly made him slower.

Made who slower? Itachi simply reacted faster than Sasuke at any given point.

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Ay isn't a statue to Madara, but the latter was definitely toying with the 5 kages, Ay included.

Not only is he not a statue but he’s only a few times slower than Madara as shown when someone who people consider to be much faster than Ay still gets him blitzes comfortably intercepted by Madara.

Being a few times slower than Edo Madara already puts you in the low end quad mach digits, high end triple mach digits by lowball. Madara still is mid end quad digit mach speeds as Edo Tensei, and probably higher while alive, by both scaling and feats.

Sorry, but that feat, while impressive, doesn't come out to be island-level in potency. The walls are thick, but not thick enough to need island level potency to bust through it in attack. It's closer to multi-city region, island level potency is leagues above that.

The sheer size of the area and the fact that everything would’ve been destroyed similar to the manner that Ichigo destroyed Yukios dimension which included entire mountains it should come out to those levels.

Las Noches itself is an island sized structure. Busting 1/4 of it would come out at less. That said, the hollow parts cannot be ignored, which would reduce the potency of this feat.

Cero Obscuras was also aimed towards Ichigo, who happened to be standing on top of the canopy, so in essence he did aim it towards the general direction of said canopy.

If someone shoots you straight to chest on the roof of a building are they aiming at the building?

Ulquiorra was in the air when he fired the CO, Ichigo was standing on the canopy. Where do you suppose Ulquiorra aimed his CO at?

I don't recall CO putting pressure on Uryu and Orihime (though it would make sense since they never witnessed something on that level before), I believe that was only after Ulq entered SE?

No R1 Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras put physical pressure on them. It wasn’t psychological pressure and when SE Ulq was fighting they were above the Canopy.

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And as a matter of fact the art of Ceros Oscuras that hit Ichigo and the Canopy was only the bottom part of the actual attack.

He was in the air already after having tanked Ichigo’s Getsuga and then blasted the Ceros Oscuras in a straight angle. If he were have actually aimed it at Las Noches he definitely would’ve destroyed the entire thing.

Right, but Ulquiorra aimed his CO downwards seeing as how Ichigo was on the ground.

Respira breaking down PS is one thing, though the shockwaves of PS's swing would blow it away, but Cero Obscuras and Cero metralleta has shown nothing to suggest they can break through PS.

Respira deflects shockwaves as shown when it deflected Soifon’s Bankai and with Respira being much faster than Madara’s PS that’s definitely not helping.

Respira hasn't deflected a shockwave on the level on Perfect Susano'o, who's mere shockwave is vastly above Soifon's bankai. Also, while PS isn't exactly supremely fast, it's not a slow megazord either.

Cero Oscuras and Cero Metralleta are definitely lethal to Susanoo especially seeing how Cero Metralleta is leagues above Ulqs CO.

How come? Cero Metralleta is just Starrk firing Ceros at an incredible rate. Is there anything that suggests it's above that of a named Cero?

Seeing as how PS has a massive blade and reach, the shockwaves will tag them, they will definitely be within the swings arc. As far as durability is concerned, the shockwaves alone would at worst heavily injure the Espadas, and a direct contact pastes them no questions asked.

In width the blades at most around 5 meters long they aren’t getting tagged by it or it’s shockwaves which still wouldn’t heavily injure them.

By visual eyeballing, the blade is way above 5 meters, closer to the 20 meter region. We are talking about the same thing right?

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There are multiple issues with that scan, but even then, all this proves is that Aizen is above Starrk's random ceros by a large margin. Where would you put Starrk's ceros at in terms of potency?

What issues?

And he casually destroyed Komamura’s Bankai which is more than 10x stronger than Love’s Shikai which overpowered Starkk‘s Ceros which are leagues above Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras which can whipe out an Island + area.

Base Aizen would do to Susanoo what he did to Komamura’s Bankai.

Well for one, IIRC Aizen was in the middle of both attacks, so it's not exactly clear if both attacks matched each other. Regardless, is there proof that Starrk's no name ceros are above Ulq's named ceros?

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#73  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@thousandsteps:

"No one can evade" is within the context of the fight. Itachi should've not been able to evade the attack (which he actually didn't). If we were to take this statement at face value, than that would leave Kaguya at sub-lightning speed since Zetsu knows what he is talking about, being arguably the most knowledgeable character alongside Hagoromo.

I’m sure the way we’re supposed to view it is that no one present in the world at the time.

Reread the fight again. Sasuke was being extremely impatient, which Itachi repeatedly warned him against. He also focused on keeping his brother safe from harm at the expense of his own defenses.

He only warned him once at the beginning and yeah he was able to react and protect Sasuke before Sasuke could protect himself.

Being a few times slower than Edo Madara already puts you in the low end quad mach digits, high end triple mach digits by lowball. Madara still is mid end quad digit mach speeds as Edo Tensei, and probably higher while alive, by both scaling and feats.

That estimate is still unfounded. The fact remains that he called lightning speed impressive and then BM Naruto who is hyped up to be quad digit mach with no basis wasn’t anymore impressive than Ay against Madara.

Las Noches itself is an island sized structure. Busting 1/4 of it would come out at less. That said, the hollow parts cannot be ignored, which would reduce the potency of this feat.

The massive structures and walls cannot be ignored either the potency still comes out relative to that level and definitely above it when talking about Espada’s stronger than Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra was in the air when he fired the CO, Ichigo was standing on the canopy. Where do you suppose Ulquiorra aimed his CO at?

Right, but Ulquiorra aimed his CO downwards seeing as how Ichigo was on the ground.

He aimed it straight forward.

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Respira hasn't deflected a shockwave on the level on Perfect Susano'o, who's mere shockwave is vastly above Soifon's bankai. Also, while PS isn't exactly supremely fast, it's not a slow megazord either.

Uninterrupted Soifons Bankai is strong enough to do serious damage to Barragan who’s leagues above Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras.

And while he isn’t like a megazord his Susanoo is still not at the level to tag the Top Espada.

How come? Cero Metralleta is just Starrk firing Ceros at an incredible rate. Is there anything that suggests it's above that of a named Cero?

You can possibly attempt this argument with Hallibels regular Ceros but you definitely can’t do that with Starkk who’s 3 tiers above Ulquiorra. A single one of his Ceros is leagues stronger than Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras and Starkk can fire a thousand rounds simultaneously.

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By visual eyeballing, the blade is way above 5 meters, closer to the 20 meter region. We are talking about the same thing right?

It’s width is definitely not 60 feet. 15 ft is a better estimate.

Well for one, IIRC Aizen was in the middle of both attacks, so it's not exactly clear if both attacks matched each other. Regardless, is there proof that Starrk's no name ceros are above Ulq's named ceros?

One would have given way if they weren’t at the same level Aizen was in the middle but they didn’t realize he no sold it until he flexed and destroyed the Shikai. And I explained the rest above.

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Zuriel-el

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Spite. Madara stomps.

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ThousandSteps

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#75  Edited By ThousandSteps

@leothegreatest:

@leothegreatest:

I’m sure the way we’re supposed to view it is that no one present in the world at the time.

Perhaps, though your guess is as good as mine. In this case though, Itachi didn't physically dodge Kirin (thus Zetsu's statement is accurate), but timed perfectly to the point where neither Sasuke nor both Zetsus saw Susano'o, which does makes this a lightning reactions on panel.

He only warned him once at the beginning and yeah he was able to react and protect Sasuke before Sasuke could protect himself.

That's because Itachi automatically moved to protect Sasuke at his own expense. Your argument for Itachi as edo-tensei being faster than EMS Sasuke only helps my case here, since that proves that alive Itachi has so debilitated he has his reactions cut down multifold, and still accomplished a lightning reactions on panel, which only supports Raikage being far faster than lightning.

Regardless, Itachi only outsped Sasuke when forgoing his own defenses, and when both were debilitated by Kabuto's light and sound technique, after seeing Kabuto head for Sasuke, which shows that he could tolerate sensory overload better than Sasuke.

That estimate is still unfounded. The fact remains that he called lightning speed impressive and then BM Naruto who is hyped up to be quad digit mach with no basis wasn’t anymore impressive than Ay against Madara.

How can it be unfounded when we have established that Ay in his V2 cloak is substantially above lightning speed, and that was the form he was using against Madara. The Raikage even noted that he needed to speed himself up, because his own speed wasn't enough and that Madara could guard against it. KCM Naruto outsped a bloodlusted Raikage at his max. BM is way above KCM as shown.

Madara was simply impressed with Raikage's speed because he viewed him as a nobody, and him not making a comment on Naruto (who he knows is the jin of Kyuubi) shows that he respects Kurama's powers, seeing as he needed it to challenge Hashirama (and before you bring the instance where he talked down on the Bijus and seeing them as slaves, he viewed them as untamed beasts of great power and limited intellect.).

The massive structures and walls cannot be ignored either the potency still comes out relative to that level and definitely above it when talking about Espada’s stronger than Ulquiorra.

The walls are thick, just not thick enough to warrant island potency to bust the canopy.

He aimed it straight forward.

Seeing as how Ulquiorra was way up in the air and Ichigo was standing on the canopy, it ONLY makes sense that he aims it towards Ichigo, and thus the canopy itself. Even the anime shows Ulq aiming downwards, which makes sense with what's happening. That panel is most definitely only a perspective shot, one meant to show the power of that Cero.

Uninterrupted Soifons Bankai is strong enough to do serious damage to Barragan who’s leagues above Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras.

Can you prove that Barragan's durability is leagues above Ulq Cero Obscuras?

And while he isn’t like a megazord his Susanoo is still not at the level to tag the Top Espada.

The direct swings ARE unlikely to tag them directly, but the shockwaves definitely will, which are enough to decimate them, and you haven't showed how they can tank those.

You can possibly attempt this argument with Hallibels regular Ceros but you definitely can’t do that with Starkk who’s 3 tiers above Ulquiorra. A single one of his Ceros is leagues stronger than Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras and Starkk can fire a thousand rounds simultaneously.

While a no-named Cero from Starrk is definitely way stronger than Ulquiorra's no-named Ceros, there absolutely no proof that this also applies to Ulquiorra's named Cero's, which are named for a reason, being extremly powerful restricting their usage within LN itself.

Also while on that topic, Espadas dont scale linearly from what we've seen (fastest being Zommari, most durable being Nnoitra...).

One would have given way if they weren’t at the same level Aizen was in the middle but they didn’t realize he no sold it until he flexed and destroyed the Shikai. And I explained the rest above.

So you're arguing that base Aizen is substantially above Starrk's ceros by a substantial yet unknown amount?

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BabyHoldMyHand

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@profz: Nobody from Bleach is touching moon level.

How did the Soul King created the planets then?

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LeoTheGreatest

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@thousandsteps:

Perhaps, though your guess is as good as mine. In this case though, Itachi didn't physically dodge Kirin (thus Zetsu's statement is accurate), but timed perfectly to the point where neither Sasuke nor both Zetsus saw Susano'o, which does makes this a lightning reactions on panel.

Thats not a very strong point seeing as how neither had a reaction speed close to Itachi‘s to perceive that and both were convinced he was done for so why would they look for it?

That's because Itachi automatically moved to protect Sasuke at his own expense. Your argument for Itachi as edo-tensei being faster than EMS Sasuke only helps my case here, since that proves that alive Itachi has so debilitated he has his reactions cut down multifold, and still accomplished a lightning reactions on panel, which only supports Raikage being far faster than lightning.

Regardless, Itachi only outsped Sasuke when forgoing his own defenses, and when both were debilitated by Kabuto's light and sound technique, after seeing Kabuto head for Sasuke, which shows that he could tolerate sensory overload better than Sasuke.

Itachi was stated to only give Sasuke what he thought he can handle in their fight meaning he was in complete control and still much stronger even while sick so you can’t say with certainty MS Sasuke was above that Itachi especially since we saw Edo Itachi had better reactions that EMS. The argument your using against that is that itachi he sacrificed his own defense to protect Sasuke which doesn’t change my point at all, Sasuke could’ve defended himself but couldn’t react in time.

Another thing is that Sasuke did in fact react to Ay in form of putting up his rib cage Susanoo before Ay could finish his suplex and putting up an amateratsu shield around his Susanoo before Ay could blitz him. He reacted to Ay in the same manner Itachi reacted to the lightning. Ay is more or less lighting speed it can’t be said he‘s significantly above it.

And that’s the speed Madara called impressive.

BM is way above KCM as shown.

In power only.

Madara was simply impressed with Raikage's speed because he viewed him as a nobody, and him not making a comment on Naruto (who he knows is the jin of Kyuubi) shows that he respects Kurama's powers, seeing as he needed it to challenge Hashirama (and before you bring the instance where he talked down on the Bijus and seeing them as slaves, he viewed them as untamed beasts of great power and limited intellect.).

You countered your own argument here. Madaras stronger than the tailed beasts so he saw them as slaves. Madara isn’t all that much faster than Ay so he recognized his speed as fast, in his own head meaning he was serious.

The walls are thick, just not thick enough to warrant island potency to bust the canopy.

That‘s why i’m not talking about the walls alone.

Seeing as how Ulquiorra was way up in the air and Ichigo was standing on the canopy, it ONLY makes sense that he aims it towards Ichigo, and thus the canopy itself. Even the anime shows Ulq aiming downwards, which makes sense with what's happening. That panel is most definitely only a perspective shot, one meant to show the power of that Cero.

The attack travels in a triangular form with Ulquiorras finger being the point so logically the bottom edge is what made contact with Ichigo and the canopy. The mangas interpretation (the authors own drawing) is more logical seeing as how Ulquiorra wouldn’t aim an attack that powerful down at Las Noches and it wouldn’t have just stopped after it destroyed the canopy.

Can you prove that Barragan's durability is leagues above Ulq Cero Obscuras?

Due to the Resurrections each espada is multiple times above the other. While you can attempt to make an argument for Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras doing some damage to Hallibel you can’t make that argument for Barragan who‘s two tiers above him.

Ulq even explains his inferiority to the other top Espada when Ichigo thought he was the First Espada.

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Meaning that even if Ichigo overcame his entire arsenal including Ceros Oscuras that he would still be no match for the stronger Espadas.

The direct swings ARE unlikely to tag them directly, but the shockwaves definitely will, which are enough to decimate them, and you haven't showed how they can tank those.

Well I did prove that and they still aren‘t getting tagged by the shockwaves regardless they operate in the path of the swords swing if they evade the sword they evade the shockwaves.

While a no-named Cero from Starrk is definitely way stronger than Ulquiorra's no-named Ceros, there absolutely no proof that this also applies to Ulquiorra's named Cero's, which are named for a reason, being extremly powerful restricting their usage within LN itself.

The above already explains why a casual Cero from Starkk is above Ceros Oscuras.

Also while on that topic, Espadas dont scale linearly from what we've seen (fastest being Zommari, most durable being Nnoitra...).

Neither are the fastest or the most durable what they mean is that their abilities (Hierro and Sonido) un amped are the best among the Espada. They obviously scale linearly.

So you're arguing that base Aizen is substantially above Starrk's ceros by a substantial yet unknown amount?

I provided the instance with Komamura’s Bankai besucase that shows he’s more than 10x above the ceros which are multiple times above Barragans which are multiple times above Hallibels which are multiple times above Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras. Base Aizen is out of this Madaras league.

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AlexTheBoss

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Aizen should beat living EMS Madara. With full knowledge he will just teleport over to him and kill his vulnerable body before Madara can overwhelm him with his perfect susanoo and kyuubi.

The round with edo Madara depends if Aizen can still kill him due to being a soul reaper. I think he should be able to, so Aizen still probably wins.

If edo Madara manages to get into perfect susanoo right away, and if Aizen can't teleport inside, his unlimited chakra would eventually allow him to overcome Aizen and seal him.

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Undre

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@leothegreatest: a better example would be masked ichigo tanking cero oscuras. That same ichigo was vastly weaker than Ulq who noselles his own CO. Ulq and VL ichigo were 10 meters apart when he fired CO. Ulq can out of the explosion with 0 damage.

So to say soifons missiles isnt vastly above CO in potency is lowball.

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JadeSkywalker25

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#80  Edited By JadeSkywalker25
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ThousandSteps

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@leothegreatest:

@leothegreatest:

Thats not a very strong point seeing as how neither had a reaction speed close to Itachi‘s to perceive that and both were convinced he was done for so why would they look for it?

Both were directly looking at Itachi, and neither saw a thing, which only proves that Itachi can summon Susano'o at lightning speeds. This is ignoring the fact that Kirin would actually be faster than lightning based on canon numbers but I let it slide generously.

The feat is valid.

Itachi was stated to only give Sasuke what he thought he can handle in their fight meaning he was in complete control and still much stronger even while sick so you can’t say with certainty MS Sasuke was above that Itachi especially since we saw Edo Itachi had better reactions that EMS. The argument your using against that is that itachi he sacrificed his own defense to protect Sasuke which doesn’t change my point at all, Sasuke could’ve defended himself but couldn’t react in time.

When Kabuto overloaded the brothers vision and hearing, Itachi resisted better than Sasuke and instinctively put his Susanoo to protect him. This isn't a speed feat, this a sensory overload tolerance feat for Itachi. Sasuke could not defend himself because he was impaired.

Another thing is that Sasuke did in fact react to Ay in form of putting up his rib cage Susanoo before Ay could finish his suplex and putting up an amateratsu shield around his Susanoo before Ay could blitz him. He reacted to Ay in the same manner Itachi reacted to the lightning. Ay is more or less lighting speed it can’t be said he‘s significantly above it.

The suplex instance was in his V1 form, that's precisely why Raikage opted to go for his V2 cloak, where goes FTE to Sasuke from a few feet away. The scaling is very consistent, and Raikage is irrefutably above lightning speed by a large margin.

And that’s the speed Madara called impressive.

A nobody moving fast enough to warrant Madara putting up his guard is what Madara called impressive.

In power only.

By feats, speed too.

You countered your own argument here. Madaras stronger than the tailed beasts so he saw them as slaves. Madara isn’t all that much faster than Ay so he recognized his speed as fast, in his own head meaning he was serious.

Actually, I countered a counter-argument there. Madara wasn't stronger than the tailed beasts (in pure power) until after he obtained his Rinnegan. His Perfect Susano'o (which is he his most powerful technique at that point) was stated verbatim by himself to rival "even" that of a biju, notice the "even", which shows he viewed them in high regards.

Madara can enslave them with his genjutsu, doesn't mean they aren't a significant addition to his arsenal.

That‘s why i’m not talking about the walls alone.

Except CO busted nowhere near an island's worth of material, which is my point.

The attack travels in a triangular form with Ulquiorras finger being the point so logically the bottom edge is what made contact with Ichigo and the canopy. The mangas interpretation (the authors own drawing) is more logical seeing as how Ulquiorra wouldn’t aim an attack that powerful down at Las Noches and it wouldn’t have just stopped after it destroyed the canopy.

Problem is, it's not consistent with what happened later on: the clash of CO from a SE Ulq and VL Ichigo's cero didn't do squat to the canopy, despite both standing on it (and thus the explosion being on ground level).

I have no doubts that shot was a perspective drawing, based on the speed lines, the right side of the drawing is closer to the reader than the left side.

Due to the Resurrections each espada is multiple times above the other. While you can attempt to make an argument for Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras doing some damage to Hallibel you can’t make that argument for Barragan who‘s two tiers above him.

Ulq even explains his inferiority to the other top Espada when Ichigo thought he was the First Espada.

Meaning that even if Ichigo overcame his entire arsenal including Ceros Oscuras that he would still be no match for the stronger Espadas.

Each Espada is unquantifiably stronger than the other (unless it is quantified somewhere that I'm forgetting?), there's honestly no certainty in what you are claiming. Do keep in mind that another named cero (being GRC) was banned for every Espada, and yet Ulquiorra (being a top 4) was spamming his own no-named ceros without repercussion. And we both know Ulqiorra is the one person to abide strictly to Aizen's rules. This clearly shows that named ceros are far stronger than no-named ceros.

Well I did prove that and they still aren‘t getting tagged by the shockwaves regardless they operate in the path of the swords swing if they evade the sword they evade the shockwaves.

Considering the blade's reach, a full 270 degree swing arc's shockwave is catching them. Furthermore, none of the Espadas have shown multi-mountain+ durability to suggest tanking any of those.

The above already explains why a casual Cero from Starkk is above Ceros Oscuras.

Neither are the fastest or the most durable what they mean is that their abilities (Hierro and Sonido) un amped are the best among the Espada. They obviously scale linearly.

We would be playing with semantics at this point, but Sonido IS part of an Arrancar's speed, Hierro IS part of an Arrancar's durability. No reason to think otherwise.

I provided the instance with Komamura’s Bankai besucase that shows he’s more than 10x above the ceros which are multiple times above Barragans which are multiple times above Hallibels which are multiple times above Ulq’s Ceros Oscuras.

That scaling becomes wonky when you consider Komamura immediately resorting to his bankai against Kenpachi in SS arc, who only displayed multi-city block feats, which is honestly consistent with what has been shown , not to mention Komamura's blade never "matched" Love's, both were no-sold by Aizen.

Base Aizen is out of this Madaras league.

Only when Madara's Susanoo is restricted. A PS swing would decimate base Aizen.

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LeoTheGreatest

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@thousandsteps:

Both were directly looking at Itachi, and neither saw a thing, which only proves that Itachi can summon Susano'o at lightning speeds. This is ignoring the fact that Kirin would actually be faster than lightning based on canon numbers but I let it slide generously.

The feat is valid.

But again both of them have reactions slower than lightning and thought Itachi was done for how would they be able to perceive it?

When Kabuto overloaded the brothers vision and hearing, Itachi resisted better than Sasuke and instinctively put his Susanoo to protect him. This isn't a speed feat, this a sensory overload tolerance feat for Itachi. Sasuke could not defend himself because he was impaired.

I’m talking about the feat you posted where Kabuto tried to impale them with the cave spikes. Sasuke couldn’t react fast enough so Itachi protected him.

The suplex instance was in his V1 form, that's precisely why Raikage opted to go for his V2cloak, where goes FTE to Sasuke from a few feet away. The scaling is very consistent, and Raikage is irrefutably above lightning speed by a large margin.

Sasuke still reacted to that version by putting up his Amateratsu shield while the Raikage was in mid blitz just like Itachi managed to put his Susanoo up.

A nobody moving fast enough to warrant Madara putting up his guard is what Madara called impressive.

Madara didn’t see him as a nobody and they each impressed him one way or another the Raikages way was speed.

By feats, speed too.

Not really Obito still didn’t have trouble reacting to Naruto.

Actually, I countered a counter-argument there. Madara wasn't stronger than the tailed beasts (in pure power) until after he obtained his Rinnegan. His Perfect Susano'o (which is he his most powerful technique at that point) was stated verbatim by himself to rival "even" that of a biju, notice the "even", which shows he viewed them in high regards.

Madara can enslave them with his genjutsu, doesn't mean they aren't a significant addition to his arsenal.

His Susanoo is above the Bijuu the only one that rivals its power is the 9 full tails.

Except CO busted nowhere near an island's worth of material, which is my point.

It vaped an island sized area of the canopy and his Release would’ve destroyed the entire thing.

Problem is, it's not consistent with what happened later on: the clash of CO from a SE Ulq and VL Ichigo's cero didn't do squat to the canopy, despite both standing on it (and thus the explosion being on ground level).

I have no doubts that shot was a perspective drawing, based on the speed lines, the right side of the drawing is closer to the reader than the left side.

The Ceros Oscuras and Cero clash made another massive hole in the canopy, shook all of Las Noches displaced thousands of tons of sand Dozens of miles away (despite them cancelling each other out).

And I don’t really get what you’re trying to say with the second part.

Each Espada is unquantifiably stronger than the other (unless it is quantified somewhere that I'm forgetting?), there's honestly no certainty in what you are claiming. Do keep in mind that another named cero (being GRC) was banned for every Espada, and yet Ulquiorra (being a top 4) was spamming his own no-named ceros without repercussion. And we both know Ulqiorra is the one person to abide strictly to Aizen's rules. This clearly shows that named ceros are far stronger than no-named ceros.

The Resurrections of the Espada multiply their power meaning that each Espada is multiple times more powerful than the previous one.

GRC is a special Cero that had the ability to distort space you can’t compare it to other Ceros because of that special trait.

And I already provided evidence of Ulquiorra himself stating that even if Ichigo were to defeat him he’d have no chance against the other Espada which means that the other Espada are above his Ceros Oscuras.

Considering the blade's reach, a full 270 degree swing arc's shockwave is catching them. Furthermore, none of the Espadas have shown multi-mountain+ durability to suggest tanking any of those.

It’s reach means nothing to characters much faster than it and again multi-mountain level attacks aren’t putting the top Espada down.

That scaling becomes wonky when you consider Komamura immediately resorting to his bankai against Kenpachi in SS arc, who only displayed multi-city block feats, which is honestly consistent with what has been shown , not to mention Komamura's blade never "matched" Love's, both were no-sold by Aizen.

You’re saying that the scaling is ”wonky” because Komamura was weaker 2 entire arcs ago? And that multi city block fests performed by pre bankai training shikai Ichigo are still relevant in the FTK arc?

Not to mention two attacks clashing without either giving way can only be described as both attacks matching each other.

Only when Madara's Susanoo is restricted. A PS swing would decimate base Aizen.

Aizen would catch it just like he he did Ichigo’s Bankai then bust Susanoo open and oneshot Madara.

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SagaTheLegend

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#83  Edited By SagaTheLegend

What is the deal with those multi city block feats? Those were completely casual and never stated to be the limit of Kenpachi's power at the time, not even close. Those don't affect the scale at all too, since not only they are not rhe limit of his power at the time, we know he gets stronger and closer to his original power every each battle. Also as a bonus Ikkaku was tanking this level of attack in base, and Kenpachi is far stronger than him. Hitsugaya can control weather and use it offensively with his zanpakuto, yet Kenpachi is still considered one of the strongest captains of the Gotei 13. The scalling and feats here seem fine to me.

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El_mago

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aizen roflstomps

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ThousandSteps

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@leothegreatest: Let's set this whole debate aside for a moment (we can get back to it) because I have an issue with the scaling you presented.

The way you presented it:

-> half of R1 Ulqiorra's CO is island level

-> a full R1 CO is large island level

-> Starrk is leagues above that, meaning he is large island+ with his ceros

-> Shikai Love overpowered those Ceros and Shikai Komamura matched him, making them small country level

-> Komamura's bankai is 10x, therefore country level.

-> Aizen one-shotted said bankai, large country level

Is that how the scaling should be? Because based on what you've given, that's the only way I can justify it.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#86  Edited By LeoTheGreatest

@thousandsteps:

-> half of R1 Ulqiorra's CO is island level

-> a full R1 CO is large island level

There’s no half CO the entire thing should be around Island level.

For the energy of his release to travel through the entirety of Las Noches and destroy it it’s power can’t be lowballed to below Multi-Mountain level his attacks while in his released form and CO especially which raises his power “by an order of magnitudes” should easily be Island level.

-> Starrk is leagues above that, meaning he is large island+ with his ceros

Being 3 tiers above Released Ulq that‘s more than reasonable

-> Shikai Love overpowered those Ceros and Shikai Komamura matched him, making them small country level

No they wouldn’t be that far above Starkks Ceros

-> Komamura's bankai is 10x, therefore country level.

Here it would be around small Country

-> Aizen one-shotted said bankai, large country level

Here it would be around Country.