Poll Mace Windu VS Valkorion (112 votes)
- Mace during RotS with the amp he had against Sidious
- No prep or foreknowledge
- They start 20 feet from each other
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Please let this be the last Valkorion thread.
no
probably Mace. He fought Sith with superior powers to Valkorions like Mother Talzin and Palpatine and he held his own. Valkorion has all the hype but no feats to beat Mace
Valkorion blows him away with telepathy or force lightning. If Mace closes in, Valkorion simply teleports away or stops Mace's lightsaber with his force barriers. Mace has no way of winning this.
@yesanother: Amped Windu isn't a Sidious level force user in the first place. Sidious attempted to use the force on him in the form of a casual force push just once and almost blew Mace away to the point he could barely save himself.
As for Valkorion's TP, it was capable of completely overwhelming 4 of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order and just a fraction of a second of being exposed to Vitiate's mind completely terrified and wrecked a fully trained Sith Lord. I don't think just being a powerful force user warrants the ability to resist that.
Regardless, there are plenty of ways Vitiate can take Windu out even without TP. A charged force storm from Valk(teleportation will give him the distance he needs) isn't something Windu, who has no Tutaminis feats, can hope to deal with. Blocking it with a lightsaber won't be ebough either, considering the ridiculous AOE and power Valkorion's lightning has demonstrated(completely encompassed and surrounded 4 Jedi, blew away multiple starships).
@yesanother: Yeah - upon reflection, Valk needs some extra help. Perhaps he should face Kas'im instead.
Seems that Valk takes another L.
Indeed.
81% votes for Windu in the polls- what a landslide.
@yesanother: I'll be preparing an extensive argument with scans in favour of Vitiate to counter the preposterous PT highballing then.
@undefined: Vader>Mace>Plagueis>Valkorion you can thank me later
Right, so let's analyse this battle. In this fight we'll be dealing with a force battle between Emperor Valkorion and Jedi Master Mace Windu. The reason I say it is only a force battle is because that is Vitiate's area of expertise and what he'll want the battle to be; luckily for him, he has the abilities necessary to enforce his will in this situation, to prevent Windu from turning this into a CQC fight. To go over these options, the first is obviously the starting distance of 20 feet, which allows Valkorion to start of the fight with a burst of telekinesis or force lightning to keep the Jedi at bay, much like he did against Revan in the second encounter between the two of them:
As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor.
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.
-The Old Republic: Revan
Or as he did when he was confronted with Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team, sending streams of force lightning at them to prevent them from closing a distance quite similar to the one the Jedi attempt to cross right here:
If you want the full scene as proof, here it is:
So that's option 1 for Vitiate to prevent Mace from turning this into a CQC fight, and it's quite a splendid one if I do say so myself. Another one is merely using his force illusions, in the form of doppelgangers or extensive and detailed visions to prevent Windu from approaching Valkorion, as he has done in the past, both in passive and conflict situations, one example being this one, where he uses clones as a means of distraction and offense:
The last and probably most effective method Valkorion has to prevent the Jedi from closing the distance is his ability to teleport, which is a failsafe and undeniable way to keep this fight purely a contest of the force. Even if, despite all of these massive factors, Windu somehow manages to close the distance, Valkorion is more than capable of holding him of with his deflective force fields and then blowing him away with a dark blast or lightning, akin to how he did against Arcann when he attempted to assault Vitiate:
He's also stopped lightsaber strikes incredibly quickly and decisively without even a gesture massively prior to his prime in the Revan novel, when Lord Scourge attempts to strike down Revan on orders of Vitiate himself, further reinforcing the notion that he's capable of dealing with attacks of that kind without any notable issues:
The Sith Lord raised his lightsaber to deliver the coup de grâce. He brought his arm down, but it suddenly stopped as if an invisible and impossibly strong hand had seized his wrist. He glanced back at the Emperor in surprise.
"Put away your blade. You have passed the test," the Emperor said.
-The Old Republic: Revan
So, now that we've established this will, in the end, exclusively be battle of the force, let's debunk the notion that just because Windu held his own against Sidious specifically due to Vaapad, a lightsaber fighting style(and, of course, the amp, but he has that here as well) he is equal to Sidious in the force. First of all, nothing even indicates this is the case in the first place , since Mace only ever engaged Sidious in a duel of the blades, where, due to the amp and Vaapad, there was no time for Sidious to utilise the force against Windu, so one would have to prove Windu's force powers even increased at all compared to his normal self. One instance to specifically debunk it is, when Sidious does have the time to use one, quick force push, due to Windu disengaging for a second, the latter is completely blown away and only barely saves himself with a full force push of his own, that is only strong enough to barely alter the angle of Sheev's force push so that he crashes into the wall instead of out of the window:
His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside.
-Revenge Of The Sith Novel
Then there's the obvious case of Mace, despite having a lightsaber to aid him(huge help, should push him solidly beyond Sidious if he's his equal in the force), being slowly overpowered by Sidious' force lightning, which really shouldn't be happening if he's Sidious equal, as people are suggesting in this thread and many others:
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
-Revenge Of The Sith Novel
So yeah, saying "muh Mace is Sidious tier so he beats Valk", definitely won't cut it here. Now, for Valkorion's many options of winning this fight, I'll choose the most simple and blindingly obvious ones in my arsenal. The first one is simply utilising his standard option, force lightning/storm. Now, you might be thinking: "But Hit, if Mace managed to temporarily block Sidious' lightning, he should be able to block Valk's, no?". Well, my answer would be that, one, Sidious lightning isn't necessarily more powerful than Vitiate's. But, that isn't really relevant to my argument here, which is that Windu simply can't block Valk's storm due to it's huge AOE, which a lightsaber just can't fully cover, unlike the powerful, but very concentrated burst Palpatine unleashed. As proof of Vitiate's storms being far too vast for a lightsaber to simply block, here are some scans of the Sith Emperor's lightning covering an absolutely massive distance the size of several spaceships, which is a least a dozen+ meters:
If that doesn't constitute as proof for you Mace's lightsaber, his only way to block lightning, would be useful here, Valkorion has also overwhelmed/bypassed the lightsaber defences of several of the "strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order" due to the sheer AOE and power of his lightning storms, even while pre-prime, as can, once again, be found in this video, from the timestamps 1:45 to 2:10.
Vitiate's ability to bypass lightsaber defences with his force lightning is also reinforced by Revan putting away his lightsaber, deeming it useless(despite having previously utilised it to block Vitiate's singular bolts, showing it was very much an option), in the face of an assault by a considerably pre-prime Valkorion's force lightning:
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
-The Old Republic: Revan
Now, since I've established a lightsaber will be useless in the face of the sheer AOE of a force storm from Valkorion,this leaves Mace no options to defend it with, since he hasn't demonstrated sufficient tutaminis to deal with lightning "infinitely more powerful" than Darth Nyriss', which could turn powerful force users to ashes despite them actively putting up protective barriers. This is a failsafe way to end this battle, since Valkorion spams lightning in-character, has the distance to do it and because mace lacks the abilities and options to deal with it effectively. I would make an argument to Vitiate simply TP'ing Mace, but why, when this is such a definitive way of assuring my Sith Emperor's win in this duel?
Credits for the scans go to @s_w_legend(excellent Valkorion respect thread you got there) and @darthant66(excellent Revan respect thread).
@hittheassasin: dammit when I read the first 3 lines, I immediately knew Failk was going to win, weird huh...
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What do you have to say for yourself, Mace supporters?
@hittheassasin: dammit when I read the first 3 lines, I immediately knew Failk was going to win, weird huh...
Obviously I was making the argument in favour of Valkorion, since everyone seems to be saying Mace wins this and I strongly disagree, as should be apparent by my post history.
Mace is a near equal of RotS Sidious as an overall fighter.
There. No more arguments needed.
I'm dealing with enough Shitiate wank as it is.
@dark-sith123: yeah this is a more logic way to handle this, HitTheAssassin speaks about lightning storm, lightsaber invulnerability and all shit like that but Palpatine has been defeated by Mace, in a pure fair fight
There's ample reason to believe Sidious was holding back, even more so given that the fight was only an impasse before Anakin entered the room.
But yes, Mace can closely compete with Sidious in his amped state, something which Failkorion absolutely cannot do.
@dark-sith123: yeah I think we will never know, but Lucas said mace won, so... Yeah, complicated SW stuff
How many times does that statement need to be debunked? Lucas was describing the scene from a viewer's point of view, and yes, Mace did "overpower" Palpatine. However, that's just the visual part of it, not taking any other context into account. In a novel personally line-edited by George Lucas, Mace's powers were amplified and even then he only fought Sidious to an impasse.
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