Mace Windu vs Obi Wan and Anakin in ROTS fight.

@jerrah13:

Still wrong.

"It was Anakin Skywalker who severed Mace Windu's arm, allowing Darth Sidious to win the fight with a blast of Force lightning." - Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force, pg.61

Disarmed, cornered and scarred by his own attack. Palpatine was literally begging for his life after exhausting all other options. Lore says Palpatine could not win unless Anakin intervened and this allowed Palpatine the opening to counterattack.

Dude. Lucas outright confirmed Palpatine was faking being weak. Just stop.

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

allow: " to give the necessary time or opportunity for."

Yes, allow doesn't mean it's the only option. If I'm in the middle of a fight, and someone grabs my opponent from behind, that would allow me to win. That does not mean I would have lost if he did not do that. Such simple concepts and reasoning should not need be stated, but I guess it does for you.

Still waiting on that canonical evidence you don't have to support your incorrect opinion.

The movie itself has Palpatien faking weakness plane as day. Lucas himself confirms it. The only thing I don't have a solid argument for is him faking his loss for the duel. He 100% threw the force lightning struggle, as stated by Lucas and anyone who eyes and ears who can comprehend that Palpatine was clearly acting when he was saying "i'm to weak, don't kill me please."

@lord_tenebrous:

I remember you bringing up the quote above, but I feel like you left out the important segment I highlighted. George confirmed Palpatine faked his weakness.

@alextheboss:

There's no reason to include it, because it doesn't contradict anything I've said. Lucas isn't talking about the duel or the part where Mace overpowers his lightning. He's literally just talking about when Palpatine starts pretending to be weak, which happens after. As I've said this whole time.

@lord_tenebrous: So were you saying Mace would have definitely killed Palpatine, or were you saying Mace definitely won the duel, but Palpatine still had a chance with force lightning?

@alextheboss:

I think that Mace genuinely outfought him in the duel, then was overpowering his lightning. Sidious clearly could have kept going, but given that Mace had already gained considerable ground before, and was already pretty close, and Sidious was being hit by his own lightning, I don't think Sidious could pull through in that situation and environment. In an open field, he could possibly outlast Mace who was clearly going through hell to make progress. But not in the office.

If Palpatine hadn't started faking weakness and had instead tried to keep going, I think he would have died.

Lucas' statements are non-canon in Disney lore, and there have already been multiple instances where they have contradicted or outright retconned his claims.

Not surprising, basic reading context is still lost on you. Palps is stated to be cornered, disarmed and hurt by his own attack and was begging for help while on the receiving end of a raised lightsaber. Nothing in the lore says he faked any portion of the fight or had an opening to counter prior to Anakin's betrayal. The burden of proof is on YOU to provide official narrative documentation confirming your claim.

Still nothing? Cool. Canon says he was helpless without Anakin. Want to change reality? Find a source saying otherwise. End of discussion until you do.

Your personal interpretation of the scene =/= canon context.

Try again.

@jerrah13: I'd just like to explain Palpatine's disfigured appearance. We've seen throughout Star Wars that the Dark Side of the Force corrupts and changes one's appearance. For example, Anakin's eyes were corrupted by the Dark Side and turned yellow. Palpatine's appearance didn't seem to have been ravaged by the Force at first, but during his confrontation with Mace Windu, he's revealed to have been immersed in the Dark Side to such an extent that his nails and teeth are yellow along with his eyes and his skin's pale. The notion that Palpatine was just disfigured as a result of being scarred by the Force-lightning conflicts with pretty much everything that we've seen in Star Wars, including the movies. No one else was given pale skin and yellow Sith eyes by Force-lightning in Star Wars. Plus, Palpatine had the same deformed appearance in Son of Dathomir which is set before Revenge of the Sith. It's also pretty obvious from watching the movie that Palpatine only stopped firing Force-lightning at Mace Windu, because he was playing possum. George Lucas even confirmed that he only pretended to lose his power and be weak. He wasn't actually being weakened.

George Lucas: "OK, well this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber, and it was always that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand, but this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved to the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see now that it's very clear that he's...he...he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith director's commentary.

The speculation that Mace Windu could have killed Palpatine has been debunked for a while now.

Mace gets lolstomped.

Yeah...no.

None of what you said pertains to the canon continuity, nor is it stated anywhere in the current lore that excessive use of the dark side causes passive deterioration to the body. The only known physical effect it produces is the yellow eyes.

The databank and aforementioned reference guides confirm Palpatine's face was scarred by the attack and he grew to resent the Jedi for causing him mortal harm. If he orchestrated the entire scene as you and so many wrongly assume, he would have zero reason to hate them for inflicting an injury that he himself planned.

yourmaster said:

No one else was given pale skin and yellow Sith eyes by Force-lightning in Star Wars.

No one else was hit by a sustained blast of high-end lightning from the most powerful Sith either. When Palpatine tortured Luke and Maul, he used a less-intense version. We see when Dooku struck Ventress in Dark Disciple, it left visible scars across her body and the passage indicated the attack completely drained her of strength; she died shortly after.

yourmaster said:

Plus, Palpatine had the same deformed appearance in Son of Dathomir which is set before Revenge of the Sith.

Palpatine was not shown with a damaged face in TPM or AotC. What you're referring to is known as artistic license. It is the same reason why some artists draw Vader's mask with different angles and proportions, to better convey his emotions. Same reason why he had eyebrows in Rebels, and why Obi-Wan's appearance varies while he is aging in exile.

And you'd be wrong again.

Nothing has been debunked because Lucas' commentary is no longer a viable source in the Disney canon. They have already altered narrative context from the films, contradicted and completely retconned several of his claims.

Until you can provide official references and quotes proving otherwise, the lore states Mace had Palpatine dead to rights.

@jerrah13: The yellow eyes of Sith make it obvious that the Dark Side of the Force affects one's appearance. If Palpatine's disfigurement had nothing to do with that, how come the Dark Side didn't seem to have any effect on his appearance? Force-lightning didn't significantly change the appearance of anyone else in Star Wars. I mean, Mace Windu's appearance didn't change like Palpatine's when he was struck by the very same Force-lightning. Palpatine's appearance in Son of Dathomir indicates that he could change his face from his original to his corrupted one. I hardly consider George Lucas' statement to be retconned by the sources you gave, because, unlike them, it actually aligns with what's shown in the movie. Palpatine clearly ceased his lightning attack in order to seem helpless to Anakin in the movie. Palpatine's yellow eyes, nails and teeth strongly hint to me that the Force-lightning just revealed the effects that the Dark Side had on Palpatine which is backed up by everything else I pointed out. If you don't get that interpretation, that's fine by me.

Windu is unable to stop Sidious from murdering Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto in front of him...

Kit fisto was killed while Palpatine was simultaneously fighting Windu and Fisto 2VS1

https://gfycat.com/angelicfewindianskimmer

If Windu is stronger than Sidious then he can quickly stomp Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin and Kit Fisto ????

Of course not! Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin two jedi masters were killed in 5 seconds of fighting!

if Windu were so powerful, he and Aayla Secura would have easily defeated Maul

Sidious humiliated Maul and Savage!

Windu wank became ridiculous Anakin and Obi wan wins

Mace.

Either would give Mace a good fight or have a good claim at beating him 1v1 imo but 2v1 they guarantee the win and Windus capped (if allowed usage here) would be mostly useless.

Mace easily wins both rounds. He IS a better fighter than Sidious, and he is close enough to him in power to overwhelm Sidious' lightning. Palpatine did not hold back. We have the script confirming that Palpatine outright tried to kill Mace in an off-screen part of their duel:

"PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

We have George friggin Lucas confirming that when Palpatine blasted Mace with lightning, he was trying to kill him at first:

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Director's Commentary(George Lucas)

We have the actual movie script stating that Palpatine was giving it his all:

"PALPATINE raises his hands and lightning bolts shoot out. They are blocked by MACE'S lightsaber. PALPATINE is pushed back against the window sill. MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

We have George going on to confirm that Palpatine faking weakness and Palpatine trying to kill Mace with lightning are two seperate events:

"But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later..."

-- George Lucas

We have that actually being the case in the movie itself:

https://youtu.be/7_dwkjQHre0

Palpatine attacks Mace with lightning at 2:31, and according to Lucas, at this point he's trying to kill Mace. Only at 2:55 does Palpatine start faking weakness, which would be what Lucas was talking about later on. In between 2:31 and 2:55, Mace is seen consecutively overpowering Sidious' lightning.

As for the actual duel itself, these quotes sum it up nicely:

"They stop as MACE forces PALPATINE to drop his sword."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine..."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Director's Commentary(George Lucas)

Palpatine did not throw the fight, his initial defeat was outright forced, and he tried to kill Mace earlier. Palpatine was not holding back his power during the lightning exchange until the end, after Mace had already gained considerable ground. EU content is irrelevent. Period.

Even setting that aside, regardless of who you think is better between Mace and Sidious, they are still near-equals. Lucas confirmed that Mace can compete with Sidious:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."

-- George Lucas

So Mace ~ Sidious anyway. Who can Anakin compete with? Hint: it's not the Emperor:

"ANAKIN struggles to defend himself against the other manic DROID BODYGUARD."

-- Revenge of the Sith: Official Script

Simply put: Mace ~ Sidious, Anakin ~ IG-102, and Obi-Wan isn't even as good as Anakin.

Anakin alone would give Windu a great fight and arguably take the majority. Adding Obi-Wan into the mix all but guarantees the duo the victory.

It's a great fight in canon but Anakin could possibly solo in legends if he gets into the 'zone'.

Repeating the same thing without providing any references or quotes to support your opinionated claim doesn't make it any less wrong.

Read the source material. In canon, the only physical effect of dark side use is yellow eyes.

Context must be a foreign concept to you.

Mace's skeleton was illuminated, much like Vader's, indicating a lethal intensity. Another indicator you haven't studied the lore, not reading Dark Disciple. Oh wait, you didn't even read my last reply that proved you wrong, which is why you're regurgitating the same lines with no additional evidence, apart from what you "think"

Lore confirms Palpatine wasn't using a mask, but was legitimately disfigured by his own attack. So that's another "L" for you.

His appearance varies depending on illustrator, but as shown in TCW and prequels, his face wasn't scarred until RotS. Ignoring the facts and lying through your teeth doesn't make what you say any less untrue.

Translation: It aligns with your personal interpretation of what you think happened in the film. Thankfully, your opinion is also non-canon and there are a handful of examples where Lucas' word has been dismissed or retconned. But again, you don't follow current continuity, so you have no clue what's going on.

It is stated in the reference guides Palpatine was cornered and at Mace's mercy. Don't like it? Bring some official citations and source material to make a counter-claim. Ah, but that would require you to actually pick up a book and do some research. I guess you could always stick to your opinion, but we both know that isn't going to cut it.

The hostility is cringe worthy.

AAAAAAAnnnnnddddd we're done.

Anakin Solos in both Rounds

@beta_stage:

Thank you

Probably Anakin and Obi-Wan. Based on the movie alone, it's clear that Anakin's on par with Mace Windu since he defeated Dooku ( who held his own against Yoda ). There isn't anything in canon to suggest that Mace would have defeated Anakin, let alone while Anakin's assisted by Obi-Wan.

Kenobi's is a distraction at best. A passive defensive counter attacker isn't the best teammate to have in a two on one. That said I can see the team winning this. Mace unlike Dooku has a critical weakness in that whenever he has his full attention on one opponent he tends to leave himself blind sided to his other opponent. Most infamous example is when he failed to sense Anakin's betrayal when he was focused on Sidious but he also got mauled by two magnaguards when he was focused on Dooku. I can definitely see a scenario where Mace has to focus all is attention to meet Anakins aggression and Kenobi coming in out of nowhere to blindside him.

@lord_tenebrous: Late answer but

1. Those are inconsistent and considering how Dooku himself struggled with a weaker duo in the form of their ATOC selves so what's your point? Not to mention Dooku was never that far above Obi-wan or Anakin in ROTS

2. If he was superior to either in skill he would have used the Force something else instead of raw force power not to mention that Obi-wan stated in the source you are using that he could defend himself from Dooku's force abilities but was too slow

3. Dooku with the source using (Junior novelization) can be held indefinitely with the Force so which is it?

"He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed."

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

4. Why not Palpatine in ROTS at least feats in telekinesis are kind of lacking besides implied power and Obi-wan is still definitely

5. "Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this . . .

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice."

Revenge of the Sith novelization

Yeah he wasn't struggling at all or thinking they could kill him

"Now it was time to kill.

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu."

Revenge of the sith novelization

Can't go through Obi-wan's defences even though he is trying to kill Obi-wan

"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat."

Revenge of the Sith novelization

Struggling with Anakin and resorting to cheating

I'll answer the rest soon

Kit Fisto lost to Asajj Ventress,Saesse Tiin has done nothing of note and Agen Kolar did one thing and that is it.

Who cares? I don't. Gillard is not and never will be an official source. "And if you want to go by Gillard, according to him Mace is a 9 while ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan are 8s, so he still stomps. "

Um actually

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

Also I take his other over some throw away lines of b team being remotely on the same tier as Obi-wan.

Yeah and those most skilled warriors quotes are including Yoda too so what is your point? But I am getting ahead of myself.

"So yeah. As I said before: the Council members by accolades are the 12 best Jedi alive combatively and thus scale above all other Jedi unless stated otherwise. By logic the newest member of the Council would also be the weakest."

That makes no sense if that is the case why isn't Revan on the Jedi council or the Hero of Tython or many more Jedi who were the strongest Jedi of their times? Those statements about the council being the most skilled are meaningless when there have been so many exceptions of Jedi being stronger than the entire council

"An inconsistency, like Shatterpoint's portrayal of Mace Windu. In reality, Padawan Kenobi is leagues below Jinn."

Oh please I could call Yoda fighting Palpatine for so long because Dooku tired Yoda faster than Palpatine and so many other showings like Mace fighting Sidious.

"Again there have been so many exceptions why can't you say Obi-wan and Anakin two people with force abilities and lightsaber skills that blow anyone that is not Mace or Yoda in the Council out of the water

But what's important is that all MagnaGuards are noticeably below Grievous, who in turn is below a good amount of the Council. ROTS Anakin struggling against one irrefutably shoves him into the Council tier. "

Anakin outright is stated to be strong enough to beat Grievous by multiple people infact Palpatine who is usually with Anakin told him to fight Grievous soooo also only three people in the council could beat Grievous the rest couldn't

"Eeth Koth struggled against commando droid and nearly got killed by one so I don't know why you're low balling Anakin when Koth has a more glaring low ball| Eeth Koth struggled against 4 commando droids who nearly killed him"

Doesn't matter that is newly knighted Anakin who is leagues weaker than ROTS Anakin to the point of one shitting range

"By an unofficial source. Gillard means nothing to me."

Those quotes on Kit Fisto being one of the most skilled warriors and Dooku easily beating Obi-wan and Anakin means nothing to me since they contradict and one suggest Yoda is weaker than b team which is laughable.

"Ki-Adi never fought Grievous with the Jedi as backup for more than a few seconds at most, so it doesn't mean anything. After everyone else was dispatched, Mundi and Grievous 1v1ed while the clones traveled there. Mundi held off Grievous for over 2 and a half minutes and in the end Grievous still wasn't able to legitimately disarm him, he just smacked the blade out of his hand with brute strength.

Mundi while exhausted = Grievous, so it logically follows that an unhindered Mundi > Grievous."

Grievous didn't even use his four sabers not was he in his prime

@lord_tenebrous: So Asajj is Sidious tier now or Does Bulq or Saesee Tiin? Or so many more

@lord_tenebrous: Cin Drallig is also stated to be above Shaak Tii and b team you mentioned yet Anakin wrecks him with ease

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5035324-temples%20finest%20swordsman.png

"Cin Drallig is honored with the mantle of both Chief of Security and Battlemaster for the Jedi Temple. His unparalleled skill with a lightsaber has benefited many a Jedi under his tutelage, including Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker." --Star Wars: Force Collection

Also what do you mean Jedi Anakin? Are you referring to Vader being above him? Or Knightfall Vader? Because one is debatable and the other is just Anakin with a rage amp but controlling it

@anakinvader99:

You gotta format better, it's difficult to understand what you're responding to. Copy past the point you're responding, put it in quotation marks, and write your rebuttal beneath it. Or, if you're on mobile, activate the desktop site thingy and you'll get a ton of formatting options on this site:

Check the box and it will automatically reload the site with the new options.

Those are inconsistent

They are not inconsistent. There are more sources which say that Dooku was easily handling the combined duo than sources that don't.

and considering how Dooku himself struggled with a weaker duo in the form of their ATOC selves so what's your point?

Dooku didn't struggle in AOTC.

If he was superior to either in skill he would have used the Force something else instead of raw force power

I don't know what you mean here.

Dooku with the source using (Junior novelization) can be held indefinitely with the Force so which is it?

Dooku becomes tired multiple times in TCW, the movies, and the script, which are all of higher canonity than the junior novel.

Yeah he wasn't struggling at all or thinking they could kill himIn that passage,

Dooku reaches that mindset because of various actions Anakin and Obi-Wan perform in the novel. But those things never happen in the movie, so it's invalid.

Can't go through Obi-wan's defences even though he is trying to kill Obi-wan

Never happened in the movie.

Struggling with Anakin and resorting to cheating

Never happened in the movie.

Kit Fisto lost to Asajj Ventress,

Kit lost to Ventress with a massive form advantage, and that's a stronger version of Ventress than the one in TCW. Legends EU Ventress >>>> canon/TCW Ventress. In that same book, it's stated that Ventress almost defeated Mace Windu. So, Kit gave a good fight to someone who was close to Windu.

Saesse Tiin has done nothing of note

He sparred evenly with Mace, but feats are irrelevent because he has statements.

and Agen Kolar did one thing and that is it.

Statements.

Um actually 'When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine.' Source: https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=908

That's just one interview. In the Making of Revenge of the Sith and another interview, he places Mace in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious. 2 to 1.

Also I take his other over some throw away lines of b team being remotely on the same tier as Obi-wan.

Multiple official sources >>>> stunt choreographer

Yeah and those most skilled warriors quotes are including Yoda too so what is your point? But I am getting ahead of myself.

No, because Yoda isn't one of Mace's warriors. Mace is one of his. The quotes say that the B-team are Mace's finest warriors.

That makes no sense if that is the case why isn't Revan on the Jedi council

You don't get appointed to the Council because of skill. But those who are appointed typically have peerless skill, as pointed out by those quotes.

Revan is like Anakin or Qui-Gon. He had the ability of a Council member but wasn't appointed because of other issues.

or the Hero of Tython

He wasn't as good as the Council, and they all died anyway by the time he reached his prime.

Those statements about the council being the most skilled are meaningless when there have been so many exceptions of Jedi being stronger than the entire council

Except they aren't, and a few exceptions don't invalidate a rule. The sources have spoken.

Oh please I could call Yoda fighting Palpatine for so long because Dooku tired Yoda faster than Palpatine and so many other showings like Mace fighting Sidious.

I don't know what you mean here.

Anakin outright is stated to be strong enough to beat Grievous by multiple people infact Palpatine who is usually with Anakin told him to fight Grievous soooo

Actual showings >>>> subjective opinions

also only three people in the council could beat Grievous the rest couldn't

Numerous Council members have outfought Grievous:

- Depa Billaba(canon)

-Ki-Adi Mundi(legends)

- Eeth Koth(composite)

- Kit Fisto(composite)

Doesn't matter that is newly knighted Anakin who is leagues weaker than ROTS Anakin to the point of one shotting range

And apparently, going by your commando droid scaling, he's within one-shotting range of Adi Gallia.

Those quotes on Kit Fisto being one of the most skilled warriors and Dooku easily beating Obi-wan and Anakin means nothing to me since they contradict

They don't contradict any valid sources, they are perfectly legitimate.

and one suggest Yoda is weaker than b team which is laughable.

Except they don't, because Yoda isn't one of Mace's warriors.

Grievous didn't even use his four sabers not was he in his prime

Grievous uses four sabers and two sabers interchangeably, means little if anything.

Cin Drallig is also stated to be above Shaak Tii and b team you mentioned yet Anakin wrecks him with ease

Anakin didn't stomp Drallig, he killed him with the aid of hundreds of clones as per the ROTS visual guide.

Canon Mace wins. He squarely beat Sidious, until there is other information given, that is what I must believe. Based on the way Sidious fodderized Maul and Savage, a team thats comparable to this one... yea.

@lord_tenebrous: I don't want to bother with the rest of your post, but I want to address this:

Anakin didn't stomp Drallig, he killed him with the aid of hundreds of clones as per the ROTS visual guide.

In the actual movie, Obi-Wan watches Anakin kill Cin Drallig with two of his students, and he's does it pretty easily. He duels Drallig while physically choking one of his students lol

Mace could possibly win in canon but he gets creamed in legends.

Drallig wasn't actually killed in the film. Anakin cuts down Whie, chokes Bene, then Drallig wades in and duels a one-handed Anakin for approximately 1 second on-screen, and the camera cuts to Obi-Wan. We hear maybe 8 lightsaber clashes, then the camera cuts back to a hologram of Anakin and Sidious.

@lord_tenebrous: The inference being Obi-Wan watches Anakin kill him. Why would he watch only part of the fight before switching back? He only watched Anakin kill the two padawans but not him? We don’t hear any blaster fire, and there’s more than enough sound afterwards that we can use Occam’s Razor to determine Anakin killed all three Jedi by himself.

@stormdriven:

The inference is that Anakin is evil and slaughtering the Jedi. Obi-Wan doesn't switch anything. The tape automatically transitions, indicating that the first recording has ended. The duel continued for a bit, then the recording ended. Simple as that. The Visual Guide clarifies that Anakin kills him later with the aid of clones.

Anakin destroys Mace as always. Anakin embarrassed Dooku and beheaded him in a duel pretty easy...Mace wouldn't be able to do that at all.

@mygod000:

Mace would defeat Dooku in a 1v1 as much as it pains me to say and Anakin can't "destroy" Windu I agree he beats Mace but that's only in legends and it would be a grueling fight. However Mace would win in canon against Anakin.

Anakin would destroy Mace in both Legends and in canon.

in the movie we see Anakin casually one hand dueling Drallig a Master duelist and duelist instructor. Mace is good but he isn't that good that he can duel a master with 1 hand and kill them in all but 3 seconds.

@mygod000:

"Anakin would destroy Mace in both Legends and in canon." Anakin isn't destroying anyone and Mace wins in canon he has better force feats and saber feats.

"in the movie we see Anakin casually one hand dueling Drallig a Master duelist and duelist instructor." A featless instructer and we also see Mace disarming Palpatine, it's pretty obvious which one was more impressive.

"Mace is good but he isn't that good that he can duel a master with 1 hand and kill them in all but 3 seconds." That wasn't Anakin that was KF Vader a tier 9 fighter and Mace is that good actually he's easily in the top 5 most powerful Jedi in the entire Star Wars mythos.

@stormdriven: @lord_tenebrous:

When Kenobi fast-forwards the holorecording we hear an electronic scrambling noise. We never here that when the camera is focused on Kenobi's "it can't be" and there's not reason to assume the scene transitioned without Kenobi's interference; why would the holorecording transition for no reason?

In the script the holorecording never transitions; Sidious walks in as soon as Anakin is done surveying the carnage.

"OBI-WAN moves to a panel and flips some switches. He sees a HOLOGRAM of ANAKIN slaughtering JEDI, including the YOUNG ONES. OBI-WAN and YODA react.

OBI-WAN: (continuing) It can't be . . . It can't be . . .

As ANAKIN surveys the carnage, a DARK-ROBED SITH LORD enters. ANAKIN turns to DARTH SIDIOUS and kneels before him.

ANAKIN: The traitors have been taken care of, Lord Sidious.

DARTH SlDIOUS: Good . . . good . . . You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?

ANAKIN: Yes, My Master.

DARTH SlDIOUS: Now, Lord Vader, now go and bring peace to the Empire."

Anakin can disarm Sidious as well and kill him. since everyone is so fixated on what George lucas said...we have direct confirmation that anakin would kill ROTS Sidious.

Yeah, because they let any Jedi become a duelist instructor....

@mygod000:

"Anakin can disarm Sidious as well and kill him. since everyone is so fixated on what George lucas said...we have direct confirmation that anakin would kill ROTS Sidious." Context of the quote is important he said Anakin could kill him if he didn't get injured he never said he could do right after. Not to mention that isn't regular Jedi Anakin like the one in this post.

"Yeah, because they let any Jedi become a duelist instructor" Mace Windu was the master of the order and remember that was Vader that kill Cin Drallig not regular Anakin.

Mace Windu disarming Palpatine is better than anything Anakin has done with a saber in canon, as for the force Anakin hasn't done anything like this yet in canon.

@firelordiroh said:

@mygod000:

"Anakin can disarm Sidious as well and kill him. since everyone is so fixated on what George lucas said...we have direct confirmation that anakin would kill ROTS Sidious." Context of the quote is important he said Anakin could kill him if he didn't get injured he never said he could do right after. Not to mention that isn't regular Jedi Anakin like the one in this post.

"Yeah, because they let any Jedi become a duelist instructor" Mace Windu was the master of the order and remember that was Vader that kill Cin Drallig not regular Anakin.

Mace Windu disarming Palpatine is better than anything Anakin has done with a saber in canon, as for the force Anakin hasn't done anything like this yet in canon.

Context yourself my friend. I wasn't talking about Suit Vader. I was talking about Anakin pre-suit. And the quote said: Vader if he had not lost to Obi-wan would have killed ROTS Sidious.

He never said "Could" he said he would, meaning Anakin in ROTS was already above Sidiousin ROTS.

It made clear as well by Sidious himself when he literally said verbatim that Anakin power would have killed him back then in ROTS

as for Suit Vader in canon Vader at his best has much better feats than ROTS Sidious.

That feat Mace did maul is able to do the same thing.

ROTS Anakin>>Maul.

Even before ROTS anakin was already single handily defeating Dooku the same Dooku who made Yoda Struggle

@mygod000:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." Yes Lucas did say that Anakin "could" have killed Palpatine and the quote never specified whether Anakin could have done it immediately (which I think he could have) but this is irrelevant to the fight since we seem to be in agreement.

"as for Suit Vader in canon Vader at his best has much better feats than ROTS Sidious." Yes, Vader is a beast in canon and I believe that he would destroy Mace but he's younger self wouldn't.

"maul is able to do the same thing" Maul has pushed a ship of the ledge which is impressive but Anakin has never done anything like that himself.

"ROTS Anakin>>Maul." Anakin > Maul** There isn't that much of a difference they're in the same tier but I agree Anakin is superior.

"Even before ROTS anakin was already single handily defeating Dooku the same Dooku who made Yoda Struggle" So are we ignoring the fact that Mace disarmed Palpatine??! Don't get me wrong I love Dooku he's my favurite character but he barely stalemated Yoda and escaped not to mention he knew his fighting style inside out due to Qui-Gon using Ataru and Yoda was his old master as well.

Legends Anakin => Mace, Canon Mace > Anakin.

@firelordiroh:

I say it again, in canon it depends which Vader you are talking about.

If we are talking about Suit Vader in ROTS, then no he can't beat ROTS Sidious...but he is a peer of ROTS Sidious since he can ragdoll him with the force.

Anakin in ROTS is above ROTS Sidious, and would kill him. sure he doesn't have many force feats on that tier but he clearly capable of fighting on ROTS Sidious level and up when he was able to stomp Dooku.

Vader from Rebels or ROTJ would completely destroy ROTS Sidious. he has greater feats, used the force to survive attacks that is literally planetary(Something ROTS Sidious isn't on in the force), and is stated to be light years above Dooku and maul in power. Since we are able to see him drag ships out of the sky casually with the force and leave craters ROTS Sidious has no chance against that Vader unless he can short out Vader suit.

Yes, Anakin in canon can defeat ROTS Sidious. like I said what George Lucas Omitted in his canon is irrelevant when sources are Saying from his canon say ROTS Anakin>=ROTS Sidious.

Novels with Sidious literally stating Anakin power is greater than his also exist. George Lucas has always stated Sidious wanted someone more powerful than him that he could control...which was Anakin.

No, we need to move on to actual Canon since this is the majority of your argument is from.

what you just said is appeal to ignorance. You said: Anakin has not done a feat like Maul and Mace has done by himself. Yet, we both Agree is bare minimal Anakin is Maul tier, so regardless of what he done and hasn't done by himself is irrelevant...he should be more than Capable of replicating those feats if plot isn't involved since he is their tier.

Just and FYI Maul defeated Mace in combat as well.

My point in bringing that up isn't to say Maul is Sidious tier it is to prove to you that on any given day someone can lose. the strongest in star wars doesn't always win.

@mygod000:

"Anakin in ROTS is above ROTS Sidious, and would kill him. sure he doesn't have many force feats on that tier but he clearly capable of fighting on ROTS Sidious level and up when he was able to stomp Dooku." Yeah, Anakin is a powerful fighter but this was him using the dark side, Mace is fighting normal Anakin.

"If we are talking about Suit Vader in ROTS, then no he can't beat ROTS Sidious...but he is a peer of ROTS Sidious since he can ragdoll him with the force." It's been a couple of years since I read that comic but wasn't Vader amped by learning Padme's death??

"Vader from Rebels or ROTJ would completely destroy ROTS Sidious. he has greater feats, used the force to survive attacks that is literally planetary(Something ROTS Sidious isn't on in the force), and is stated to be light years above Dooku and maul in power. Since we are able to see him drag ships out of the sky casually with the force and leave craters ROTS Sidious has no chance against that Vader unless he can short out Vader suit." You definitely raised my opinion about Suited Vader in canon they really made him a monster and he's probably gonna get more feats in his new comics.

Okay, and Mace when he defeated Sidious was using the dark side as well. soo...what your point? Mace in normal State can't beat Sidious. Isn't this Normal state Mace in this fight? if so show me him defeating Dooku while not amped.

Vader being amped or not means little when Vader just 5 years after ROTS is massively more powerful any form of Vader in ROTS.

Edit: Just looked at the OP again...Mace isn't stated to be using Vapaad Nor is this even a one on one fight. Mace gets obliterated here in this duel.

in canon it kinda implied that Sidious was setting up to make it look like he lost so that Anakin would see how corrupted the Jedi were getting. so in Canon that Defeat mace gave to Sidious isn't legitimate. Normal State Mace isn't anywhere near Sidious tier and can be argued below Dooku by a good bit.

@mygod000:

"Okay, and Mace when he defeated Sidious was using the dark side as well. soo...what your point? Mace in normal State can't beat Sidious. Isn't this Normal state Mace in this fight? if so show me him defeating Dooku while not amped." That's not canon my friend, Mace wasn't using his darkness to defeat Palpatine like he was in legends.

Like I said in canon it's implied Sidious was setting it up to make it look like a lost so Anakin would join him.

again the win isn't legitimate. Like I said before this is irrelevant since this isn't even a 1 on 1 fight. This is mace vs one of the best duos in star wars.

Mace get owned and burned by anakin.

@mygod000:

"Like I said in canon it's implied Sidious was setting it up to make it look like a lost so Anakin would join him." That was at the end of the duel when Anakin came in and this sin't supported by any sources or direct evidence so it lacks any relevancy. That wasn't canon by the way it was legends where it was implied he set it up.

"again the win isn't legitimate." Why because it doesn't fit with your views?

"Like I said before this is irrelevant since this isn't even a 1 on 1 fight. This is mace vs one of the best duos in star wars." I agree Mace loses but it was you saying Anakin defeats Mace in a 1v1 in canon which I disagreed with.

"Mace get owned and burned by anakin." I provided arguments that you unsuccessfully countered and you don't seem to be willing to let go of this view so we've reached an impasse, good day.