Mace Windu vs High Republic "Firebrands"

Jedi Master and esteemed Council Member Mace Windu faces the trio of Avar Kriss, Stellan Gios, and Elzar Mann.

Can they beat him?

Round 1: Force Battle

Round 2: Saber Duel

Round 3: All-out

Canon only, morals off

Battle takes place in the Jedi Archives.

@frozen, @darthor, @jedisympathiz3r, @emmafrostxmen, @daddyprometheus, @sheevsmacker, @void_reborn, @alextheboss, @thebluedragon20, @turtleman1878, @gangorca, @warlockmage, @heiqn, @geekryan@marvelfan1992, @supremegeneration, @angelica10, @lightyagamigod2, @xmen5ever, @maulsmacker, @uhu123, @lord_tenebrous, @sonofdarkness, @the_swaggot, @samgee, @dirtyluna, @cryolancer47, @lazerbeak, @gaoron, @god_vulcan, @straight-fire, @eredin12, @achillesspawn, @catman5, @shroudofsorrow

Here are some respect threads for the HR team:

Avar: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/avar-kriss-respect-thread-2243440/

Stellan: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/stellan-gios-respect-thread-2268070/#js-message-25889877

Elzar: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/jedisympathiz3r/blog/elzar-mann-respect-thread/163610/

Round 1: All 3 of the High Republic Jedi have good force feats but we know that Sidious couldn’t have defeated Mace with the force so I don’t think the trio can either.

Round 2: Mace casually stomps. The trio’s feats and accolades are very underwhelming in this category unfortunately

Round 3: Mace stomps again. They can’t keep up in sabers at all.

Mace all rounds

Mace CLAPS them all arounds. These fodders only get wanked and scaled to HR Yoda.

Mace scales far higher in both Sabers & Force-Power.

Mace outclasses them in all rounds.

Am I not worthy of your HR callout list? Haha.

Anyway, I’d say the HR trio takes it. Mace is top tier, obviously, but Elzar threw an island with the force, which is no small feat.

Round one - the trio because of Elzar and Avar’s “battle meditation.”

Round two - I don’t see why Mace could take three highly trained force users in sabers. Shatterpoint isn’t relevant.

Round three - the trio again. Mace would be pressured in sabers, and Elzar could hurt him via the force.

@lightordark:

Anyway, I’d say the HR trio takes it. Mace is top tier, obviously, but Elzar threw an island with the force, which is no small feat

Mace scales to AOTC Yoda:

AOTC Yoda scales above HR Yoda:

Since Yoda was the most powerful Jedi that participated in the deflection of the Tibanna container he at least exerted over 1/96th of the power required to move it(based off of the statement about there being “Dozens of Jedi”). This is far better than Elzar’s island feat, especially since he was extremely amped during it.

Round one - the trio because of Elzar and Avar’s “battle meditation.”

Avar‘s ability only increases coordination IIRC. Avar choosing to meditate instead of fight is not going to be as effective as her just fighting with them.

Round two - I don’t see why Mace could take three highly trained force users in sabers. Shatterpoint isn’t relevant.

Second sister is an “expert duelist“:

Do you think 3 Trillas could beat Mace?

@jedisympathiz3r: I’m not sure what, if anything, anything other than time suggests that Yoda is stronger in AOTC than in the high republic. In Dooku: Jedi Lost, Yoda is lifting buildings and in AOTC he lifts a crane. I’m not sure if his mountain feat is canon, but that happened before AOTC, too.

Yoda’s tibanna feat is non-combat, though, where Elzar’s is during combat. I think that’s a necessary distinction. Elzar did it to save people, too, so it is something I could see him doing if Mace is pressuring them in sabers.

Coordination is something that could easily make a big difference or win a fight.

The second sister isn’t a Jedi Master with decades of experience training. Stellan and Avar are, and Elzar has battle experience, though I think he is a knight.

Though rank doesn’t denote skill or power necessarily, it does denote experience, which is invaluable.

@lightordark:

I’m not sure what, if anything, anything other than time suggests that Yoda is stronger in AOTC than in the high republic. In Dooku: Jedi Lost, Yoda is lifting buildings and in AOTC he lifts a crane. I’m not sure if his mountain feat is canon, but that happened before AOTC, too

Force users grow more powerful with age:

Yoda’s tibanna feat is non-combat, though, where Elzar’s is during combat. I think that’s a necessary distinction. Elzar did it to save people, too, so it is something I could see him doing if Mace is pressuring them in sabers.

Elzar wasn’t fighting anyone during the feat, he was completely alone.

Coordination is something that could easily make a big difference or win a fight.

Sure but that’s only if they’re at least somewhat close to Mace(which they’re not). They need more power, not more coordination.

The second sister isn’t a Jedi Master with decades of experience training. Stellan and Avar are, and Elzar has battle experience, though I think he is a knight.

Though rank doesn’t denote skill or power necessarily, it does denote experience, which is invaluable

Why do you think that? Trilla has fought and killed at least a few knight and/or masters and fought Cal a few times. She has far more experience in real lightsaber duels(not spars) against force users than all three of them combined which is more useful to this fight than experience with non force sensitives. Additionally, 9th sister is also a master with a decade of training and experience but was beat by mid game Cal while Trilla held her own against end game Cal. BTW, Elzar became a knight at the end of Light Of The Jedi.

@lightordark: the mountain feat is canon for sure, and it was close to TPM. The crane feat feels more inconsistent than anything else considering he has that rock lifting/movement feat in TCW episode “Ambush.” That looked more impressive and he did it with less effort, and this was probably pretty early in the war, and therefore close to AotC. Also, sorry I didn’t tag you for this. I’ll add you.

Mace demonstrated power far beyond any members this trio. He takes this with relative ease

@lightordark:

He was in the middle of Valo fighting the Nihil.

He wasn’t fighting anyone:

The Inquisitor’s inconsistent power levels are problematic, almost as problematic as the HR Jedi’s lack of feats

Trilla is pretty consistent

I don’t see Jedi masters in the HR being Inquisitor level.

Saber to saber combat was extremely unlikely to occur during the HR era so it’s possible that saber dueling wasn’t that big of a focus for training

I’d say they range from Kit Fisto To ROTS Obi Wan.

Fisto level is very generous if you’re only referring to saber skill.

@jedisympathiz3r said:

@lightordark:

He was in the middle of Valo fighting the Nihil.

He wasn’t fighting anyone:

I don’t understand what your scan is trying to prove. He is in the middle of a battle on Valo when he threw the sky island into the Nihil ship. The scene in that scan explains where he got his emotion.

@lightordark: I missed this point in my last post I’m going to address it first:

Maybe, but Yoda doesn’t age the same as humans or humanoids.

AOTC Yoda is 210 years older than LOTJ Yoda. Yoda died of old age when he was 900. 210 divided 900 is 0.23. This means that 210 is 23% of his lifespan so he should’ve aged a decent amount. Even if he didn’t age that much, the quote still proves that AOTC Yoda wouldn’t have lost power because of his age so he still scales to the Tibanna feat.

I don’t understand what your scan is trying to prove. He is in the middle of a battle on Valo when he threw the sky island into the Nihil ship. The scene in that scan explains where he got his emotion

It shows that no one was near him during the feat. Him being in the middle of a battle doesn’t make this a mid-combat feat when he wasn’t in combat himself.

Not to tag team you here, but he still isn't fighting anyone in the exact time frame he's throwing the island or the quote would have mentioned it. Even if we discrard that, this is also by definition a charged blast considering he's sitting there stewing in his emotions before using Force. This isn't really something he has time to do unless Mace is an idiot and lets 3 Force users he doesnt know charge up in front of him.

@laskt: No, I get he wasn’t fighting someone while doing it, which I think is the point you two are making. My point is that he is in combat choking on gas, not in meditation with younglings around him, which is how Yoda is described with the tibanna feat.

If there is something larger he could throw, then it’s possible Mace could not deflect or dodge it. To compare, Sidious didn’t deflect Yoda’s senate pod, which was rather large.

The point is Elzar can without a doubt throw a sky island, which is an incredible force feat and makes a difference in a fight against Mace.

@lightordark:

Grogu in Mando is still an infant at 50. We could conservatively say he is the equivalent of two in human years, though a two year old human is way more developed physically and mentally. So if he is 2 years older every 50 years, which stands to reason, and there are 18 50-year periods in 900, then it would stand to reason that Yoda was technically 36 human years when he died. (I think that’s correct math) Between LOTJ and AOTC, he could be only “4 years“ older.

I know I’m splitting hairs, but he technically died because he was sick, not old.

Yoda is portrayed as the wise old teacher and has grey hair. It doesn’t make sense for him to be the Yoda species equivalent to a 36 year old human in ROTJ.

He had just cut down a Nihil before he spotted the island

Sure but he still had all the time needed to focus without distractions. Him fighting recently is only significant if it made him tired(which it didn’t).

there was the disorienting gas that he was breathing in, which would make the feat even more impressive.

I don’t remember the gas being a hinderance for Elzar. Could you post a quote for this?

My point is that he is in combat choking on gas, not in meditation with younglings around him, which is how Yoda is described with the tibanna feat.

Many Jedi were passing out because of the effort of trying to move the Tibanna, the younglings wouldn’t be contributing much.

If there is something larger he could throw, then it’s possible Mace could not deflect or dodge it. To compare, Sidious didn’t deflect Yoda’s senate pod, which was rather large.

The fight takes place in the Jedi Archives.

The point is Elzar can without a doubt throw a sky island, which is an incredible force feat and makes a difference in a fight against Mace.

He only did it with a huge amp. Meanwhile, Mace scales above a much more impressive feat. RotS Mace>Brotherhood Mace>=<Brotherhood Yoda>LOTJ Yoda>>>Rage Amped Elzar>>>Base Elzar

@lightordark:

I agree with you, but my example is solid. countless things don’t make sense in Star Wars, just look at Anakin vs Vader‘s on screen lightsaber fights. Everyone says Vader is faster. The screen disagrees fervently

I can’t quantify how much force users grow with age anyway so I’m fine with just going with AOTC Yoda being equal to or very slightly more powerful than LOTJ Yoda

I mean, all the time is a stretch an island was falling from the sky about to crush vectors and thousands of people. The text draws it out, but it implies that it happened fast.

Yeah, poor wording. I mean that he could focus entirely on using telekinesis and he had some time to charge up which isn’t something you can do while directly in combat. Btw, Yoda wouldn’t have much charge up time either since he would want to join in ASAP.

Also, even if we assume that the outside circumstances make the 2 feats equivalent, Mace still scales far above Elzar: RotS Mace>Brotherhood Mace~Brotherhood Yoda>=LOTJ Yoda=Rage amped Elzar>>>Base Elzar

Sure, but it’s not a 1v1 force battle

(…)

two Jedi masters alongside him

Neither of their force feats are even somewhat close to Elzar’s sky island feat and I don’t think Stellan or Avar scale to him(wouldn’t be surprised if they do but I don’t remember anything that suggests it). They’re not going to be much help.

Elzar has a textual force feat, not scaling

(…)

What force feat does Mace that competes?

Sure, if we ignored scaling Elzar ragdolls Mace but we don’t ignore scaling so Mace is still more powerful.

He has sabers for sure because he disarmed Sidious, but he doesn’t have saber feats against three trained force users

Their number advantage doesn’t matter if none of them can last for more than 1 saber clash.

Why are we scaling Mace to Yoda in the force?

The feats clearly favor the grandmaster and Mace has feats of his own that we can use.

@grinningf0x: From Brotherhood(novel that takes place between AOTC and TCW):

RotS Mace is equal to RotS Yoda:

Sidious needed to be saved by Anakin(after he was forced into the corner) which means he couldn’t defeat Mace with the force:

“Meanwhile, in the Chancellor’s office, Palpatine was far from meekly accepting his fate. By the time Anakin arrived on the scene, three of the four Jedi Masters lay dead, cut down by Palpatine’s crimson lightsaber blade before it was lost. The Sith Lord’s fate was now in Mace Windu’s hands alone”

Skywalker: Family at war

@jedisympathiz3r: None of Windu’s showings match any of these statements.

@grinningf0x: Sidious being at Mace’s mercy is a feat. Besides, statements don’t need to be backed up by feats, they just need to not be contradicted by them.

Yeah. Why are we scaling someone who is repeatedly portrayed and stated to be on the jedi grandmaster's league to the grandmaster? Silly.

@lightordark:

Scaling is a problem in itself because the foundation for it is so subjective. Feats have to be greater than scaling, right?

I agree that feats are more concrete but the foundation for my scaling isn’t subjective since it’s based on statements from canon.

What suggests they can’t survive more than one clash?

Scaling above every Jedi in the PT besides RotS Yoda

Bump

Mace should win all rounds

R1: The Constellation trio stomps.

R2: Avar and Stellan are both accomplished duelist and Elzar isn’t too bad. I’d say Mace takes it mid to high diff.

R3: The Constellation trio has this. Mid to high diff I’d say

I'd assume Mace Windu wins this with little trouble, but I'm willing to be proven wrong on this.

Mace wins mid-high diff, but I'm no expert on these hr characters so I would be open to someone convincing me otherwise

Mace Windu low diff

@ieatnettles: Honestly, it feels to me like he wouldn't even have that much trouble (at least not in saber dueling), but like you I'm pretty ignorant on HR-Era characters overall.

@ieatnettles: @shroudofsorrow: There's some Respect Threads at the top if you guys want to check them out.

@a_fine_edition: @shroudofsorrow: I barely know anything about any of these apart from porter was like pre prime Yoda level. Thanks, I'll take a look at the threads sometime tmrw

@ieatnettles: cool. Porter's probably the most notably powerful/skilled Jedi from the era. Avar has a couple statements putting her on-par with Yoda Force-wise, and her feats are okay. The main issue is that their opponents in duels just don't feel notable or impactful. It's hard to scale when there's barely anyone but fodder around for them to cut down.

@shroudofsorrow: @a_fine_edition: @ieatnettles:

Porter is far beyond Yoda in skill. So he should solo Mace.

@frozen: I really don't think he is though. At least not far beyond, if at all. One or two statements that he performed something around that level does not incline me to believe he would suddenly stomp so many high tiers. Hell, we don't even know how good HR Yoda is. We need to know more about this guy. Unless he's gotten new feats I'm inclined to believe he is not "far beyond" Yoda.

We've seen HR Yoda perform better than he ever has in the PT against fodder in Midnight Horizon.

@a_fine_edition:

It is said that “nobody comes close to him”. Which would mean a tier above Yoda. Iirc it’s an OOU statement too.

@frozen: It's a comic description meant to hype up the main character of the book. I really don't think a lot of thought or consideration was being put into it when it was written. There was a very similar statement about Kirak Infil'a being more powerful than anyone Vader's ever faced, and that was very vague as well. I don't think people really took it as fact either, though I believe there was debate. Regardless, I really don't know why so many people put such stock in such statements. To say someone is vastly above Yoda so assuredly seems premature, especially since we've really not seen a lot from the guy.

Isn't Porter meant to get another series soon about how he got his "Blade of Bardotta" title? I think it's called "The Broken Blade." No idea when it's meant to come out, but I think until then he's way too vague to scale effectively.

@sunshinedobbs: He fought fodder once, didn't he? In "Ambush" and he was having a blast the whole time. Still, fodder is fodder, and Yoda had some backup, however small it may have been.

Midnight Horizon's finale was pretty damn cool though. One of the more badass Yoda moments in recent memory.

@a_fine_edition: It's not the only statement putting Porter above Yoda though:

He has a bunch of other statements saying he's legendary too. And it's not like his feats are bad either.

@sunshinedobbs: I don't put much stock in that one either. All it says is that he's doing a move they've never seen before from other swordsmen. For now I just think he's too undefined, and his actual feats themselves aren't enough.

The most he fought at once in Ambush was 3 AATs, 8 B2s and 9 B1s. So it was a 1 vs 17 at worst:

While in Midnight Horizon there were 500 Nihil + commandeered walkers towards the beginning of the battle:

And more were arriving throughout the battle:

There were only 24 defenders left when Yoda arrived, so even if you take all of them into account equally, HR Yoda still had worst odds (1 vs 20):

But it's pretty clear that he didn't need much help if at all and he was practically soloing the army:

They explicitly say in that statement that it translates to his combat ability.

And he has plenty of saber deflection feats that haven't been matched by anyone. No other Jedi has ever statued and blizted a Jedi Killer before as far as I know. And he stomped a Jedi Master in sparring too. Fodder Jedi Masters have done better against Windu before. Porter also fought an army.

@sunshinedobbs: I'm pretty sure there were more droids, but I digress.

They explicitly say in that statement that it translates to his combat ability.

Sure, but Bell simply remarks that he couldn't imagine what it would be like to fight him.

And he has plenty of saber deflection feats that haven't been matched by anyone. No other Jedi has ever statued and blizted a Jedi Killer before as far as I know. And he stomped a Jedi Master in sparring too. Fodder Jedi Masters have done better against Windu before. Porter also fought an army.

Fair enough. Although he failed to protect Barash at one point and she got hit by a blaster bolt. Also, are you sure that Jedi was a Master? I thought he was a Knight? We also don't know much of anything about General Viess. She's featless other than getting blitzed, but fair point there as well. Although he was caught off-guard by her prepping and throwing a grenade moments later.

If anything it seems to me like HR Yoda outdid Porter in fighting an army. He was smashing through their ranks like nothing, whereas Porter was exhausted by the end and didn't come close to defeating them singlehandedly. He had help via the planet's soldiers, who turned on the mercenaries.