Mace Windu vs Count Dooku (Force only)

@in-sidiousvader:

Why does it suck? Honestly, the notion of Dooku being anywhere near Sidious or Yoda is nauseating. He's a bit above Maul/Kenobi level, but Yoda and Sidious are on another plane outright. So is Anakin, and while Mace isn't on another tier, he's still significantly above the Count.

I would like to thank Luceno for helping dismiss those sketchy statements that clearly didn't match what the Movie intended lol.

@keencraft:

I mean, there are other statements which dispel the popular myth of Dooku holding a candle to Yoda, and most of the accounts of their fight on Geonosis seem to contradict that notion as well, but yes, Luceno did help quite a lot.

@dark-sith123: Trust me, I know. I've pulled up and compared at least 9 or 10 sources at a time before because of Dooku wankery. But I would rather thank Luceno than the junior novel guy or a fact file lol

Thank God I‘m no longer in this misbelief.

@vitisid: You were a part of this??!

I hatee youuuuuuuuuu in an anakin voice

@keencraft:

Yes, and I‘m not proud of it.

Hail @dark-sith123, he saved me!

@vitisid:

Oh, yeah, I remember now. We talked about it, like, days after you joined the Vine.

@dark-sith123:

I think it was my third post...

Skill ; Windu

H2H and physical strength ; Windu by far

TK ; Could go either way,

But considering that Windu doesn't have low showings such as getting Force choked by Savage Opress or getting Force choked by Sidious's Hologram, I would side with Windu in a close one.

Round one is an impasse imo.

Round two I give the edge to the count.

Then I thank you for converting one of my mortal enemies. I promise to execute a Valkorion wanker in your honor

Windu both rounds

I think dooku is more skilled tho

@keencraft:

Can you also convert one for me? :P

@vitisid: If I come across one, I'll dedicate the conversion to you.

@keencraft:

Good. Gooooooood.

Pretty much this but Mace wins by a much larger margin now.

@greysentinel365: How much weaker do you consider Dooku to be?

@chronicplane: That's a hard question. To give you an idea of a scale (that I'm making up on the spot to answer this question don't read into it)

If Maul were a 5, EoRotS Kenobi and Dooku would be 6 and Mace would be a 8

Dooku cannot match Yoda, unfortunately - the latter's force abilities are well beyond the Count's. A duel would be similar to Anakin vs. Dooku, though

@in-sidiousvader: ...Except that an exhausted Mace was using Vaapad to block and redirect Sidious' lightning, which is far above Dooku's. Also, I'm pretty sure that there are sources suggesting that Yoda deflected Dooku's lightning without too much trouble.

Yeah I know I was wrong Dooku is terrible after LOE Blah Blah Blah

Is the "Mace exhausted" nonsense still going on? Palpatine would be just as exhausted, and Lucas himself has made clear that Palpatine was not going all out during the lightning exchange. Even then, Mace barely deflected the lightning, and it's made clear in the novel he could have died if Sidious wished to kill him there and then. Mace is more powerful than Dooku but let's not push it.

@in-sidiousvader: I’m not one of the people who thinks Dooku is weak. I think he’s close enough to Mace to give him a very good fight, but Windu is reasonably more powerful.

Tyranus is a better duelist though

@in-sidiousvader:

Pray tell, in what universe is Dooku a superior duelist to Mace?

Windu is an "eight bordering nine", opposed to Dooku, Maul and Kenobi who are simply "eight." That alone puts Windu ahead of Dooku.

Which should also be visible when you compare Mace's performance against Palpatine to Dooku's (lackluster) performances against Anakin and Yoda.

Mace is significantly ahead of Dooku in nearly if not every single aspect pertaining to combat.

@dark-sith123

@dark-sith123 I know you have ea CaV so no rush but I really am curious as to how you will respond to my post above. Just curious is all

@in-sidiousvader:

Oh yeah, nearly forgot about this. Will respond soon.

Mace wins, but not easy at all

@in-sidiousvader:

Gillard isn't exactly a credible source on everything.

He's a pretty reliable source though, and Windu > Dooku in his tier system is something that should be taken into account.

I am all for the tiering system when it makes sense

If you're "all for the tiering system", then you accept it, even the bits you don't like.

but Dooku and Mace had an inconclusive duel on Boz Pity and Dooku did not get stomped by Windu like you imply

There's a few problems with this statement. Firstly, I never stated Windu would stomp Dooku. Second, this is a pre-prime Mace.

You really think Mace would really have performed any better against an actually trying Sidious

Yes, there were circumstances at play in Mace's victory, but he can factually compete with Palpatine (yes, Lucas' word is relevant, whether you like it or not) and would have put up a fight against Palps, far better than what Dooku achieved against the Sidious-tiers Yoda and Anakin.

Mace got stalemated by GG when the general had bad footing and Mace's footing was just fine.

This misconception needs to die. Mace and Grievous crossed blades for a period of time and then Mace BFR'd him. The lightsaber exchange lasted until Grievous mimicked Vaapad, which was said to have been a "single exchange" in the RotS novel- sure, it's not exactly quantifiable, but the meaning is clear. It was a very short fight- a few seconds at best. Grievous also notes in LoE that the duel was "brief". So, Grievous survived against Mace for a few seconds. That's all it is. Not to mention, Mace's footing was not as fine as you make it seem. He had to expend Force reserves into leaping around the mag-lev and keeping his balance.

Dooku causally stomps GG every other week.

Unfortunately, LoE states that Grievous is capable of giving Dooku headaches:

There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

Labyrinth of Evil

And Dooku has never stomped Grievous. No, the sparring session in the 2003 microseries can at best be labeled as a comfortable victory for the Count. That is, in no way, shape or form, a stomp.

No, I am sorry we may agree on a lot of things but we have a vastly different view of Mace.

That is true. You seem to have a very low view of Mace, to the point where you think Dooku bests him and the likes of Palpatine fodderize him. Can you elaborate?

Got an argument for that, godemperordump? Or just some more unsubstantiated trolling?

This is a good outline of a comparison between the Jedi Master and the Count of Serenno

An off guard Dooku was choked by an enraged Savage. That trying to be passed off as legitimate...

@dark-sith123: I meant this part:

Skill ; Windu

H2H and physical strength ; Windu by far

TK ; Could go either way,

I left the bottom part in because Windu would also win all-out

Dooku wins

dark-sith = Erkan confirmed.

@in-sidiousvader:

I accept everything but the Mace placement

No, no, no. You either accept the tiering system, and by extension Mace's placement, or refuse Mace's placement and refuse the tiering system. You can't say you accept it and then just cut out bits at a whim.

and the fact that it doesn't fit with the portrayal of Mace in any other Media.

It perfectly fits. And please don't use hindered, pre-prime showings for Mace to try and prove the point that's been debunked a million times.

IIRC it took place in obsession which is like maybe at most a month away from ROTS

Four/five months away from RotS, minimum.

and there is never stated to be any growth for Mace during that time so he isn't really pre prime

It's a brutal war, so logically Jedi grow at a rapid pace, but even if he was somewhat in his prime, it was a very short duel which doesn't point to Mace's inability to beat Dooku.

If you are going to take his word on Mace v Sidious take his word on Ben, Vader, and Luke, being "Crippled old men" (Ben) "Crippled half droid half men" (Vader) and "Young Boys" (Luke)

Those are adjectives he uses to drive home the point that PT duelists are greater. And in a way, I mean, what he says is true. Ben's an old man, Vader's a crippled cyborg and Luke's a relatively young guy.

Lucas may be word of god for you

He is for a large majority of people, not just me. Time you accept this as well, and don't deny him just because you can't support Mace being ranked so high for some reason.

This makes that feat more impressive

Wut? You say Grievous stalemated Windu. I prove the fight lasted a few seconds at the very best, meaning it was not a "stalemate". How does this make the feat more impressive?

You also don't give enough credit to the fact that the General no matter what you think still had worse footing than Windu and held his own even if it was for a few seconds.

It's a nice feat, but Grievous can do the same and better to Count Dooku, and Mace is still vastly superior to the general.

Darksith it specifically states that he had trouble during the "extensive combat sessions" and considering Grievous is an untiring bio droid held up by servos, and the count does not have the best stamina. This means that in Dooku's fatigued state he was hard pressed which is forgivable

Fatigued state? Where the hell did you pull that from? Extensive combat sessions means that they fought and trained a lot, not that Grievous could only press Dooku when the latter is fatigued. No, Grievous is simply not as far below Dooku as you'd like him to be, and can absolutely push the Count.

It's also worth noting that the passage specifically says "outduel" this likely means that Dooku is not integrating force attacks something he does literally all the time and one of the most effective things agains GG.

He did use it in the cartoon, but anyway, I wasn't disputing Dooku's superiority to Grievous. I was disputing Dooku's ability to stomp him, which is a baselss assertion.

I am sorry but I disagree. Dooku is easily stomping GG if not curbing him in that particular Cartoon.

Then you must have watched a different cartoon than me, because never did Dooku stomp Grievous.

But... I am open to suggestion please tell me why you think this isn't at least a stomp

Because there is zero evidence pointing that way, and there is multiple evidence pointing the other way.

Certainly. Sidious has stated that he prefers to use the force and does so on a regular basis in his serious duels. But in that fight he only uses it after he is disarmed.

Same thing with Yoda. He only uses the Force after Yoda has disarmed him. Anyway, the Force gap between them is bigger than the saber gap, and Mace competing with Sidious stems mainly from sabers.

Never does he integrate a force push or lightning blast against him instead he just duels him in what seems to Mace like impasse but in actuality is Sidious going on his low intensity setting

He's arguably holding back, but low intensity setting is pushing it.

Siasee Tinn is stated to spar with Mace implying that they are roughly as fast as each other.

Are you actually serious? Sparring sessions, at least in Legends, are extremely inconsistent. There is nothing pointing to Tiin even being comparable to Windu.

The only thing that kept Mace in that fight was Vaapad combined with his circumstantial amp and even then he was only contending with Sidious while Sidious was trying to delay until Anakin arrived.

Vaapad amped Mace stalemated Sidious. An unamped Mace can factually compete with Palpatine, but obviously he's going to lose.

It's this simple, really. Your arbitrary denial of sources you don't like doesn't change it.

What? How can that be?

Dooku blitzes Maul, Maul isn't anywhere near close to Dooku. Dooku is 9 Maul is 3.

If you are talking about force power I have to disagree. I would say all the characters mentioned above are pretty much the same tier when it comes to flat out force power, with Dooku being the highest due to having the most knowledge and techniques. If Maul had force lightning I would put him on par with Dooku in the force, and in canon Mace really has no feats above Maul, Kenobi, or Dooku.

@erkan12: Because I’ve never said Dooku blitzes Maul. You’ve entirely made this up in your head.

Everything pre ROTS points to Dooku and Mace being equals; DR and all the statements from supplementary materials; some even implying only Yoda could defeat him. ROTS and beyond however seems to retcon this. Most reason that Mace had simply grown more powerful, but IMO it's just a retcon. Lucas simply had a different scaling for Mace than the CW Multimedia Writers.

@in-sidiousvader:

Mace an Dooku have been declared to be equals on even ground.

This is another misconception that needs to die. Mace and Dooku have never been stated as equals, at least as of RotS, and the tiering system as well as their performances against their tier nines cement Mace's superiority over Dooku, both saber and Force wise. His skills have also been stated to eclipse that of Dooku's.

It doesn't make sense for Mace to be above him like gillard has stated

Except there's no evidence pointing to them being equals as of RotS, and multiple pieces of evidence pointing to Mace being superior. What doesn't make sense is Dooku being as good as Mace, not the inverse.

Fine because then Dooku was massively pre prime

See, it's these baseless assertions I have a problem with. Dooku is nowhere near as active as Mace, and Mace's far younger which means he hasn't had as much time to grow. Dooku was in his prime, and I find doubtful Mace was in his absolute peak. Anyway, not that it means much, because the duel was very short.

They were dead even no-one held an advantage. Even if it was a short fight it doesn't change the fact that they were evenly matched for the entire fight.

They weren't dead even, they simply didn't kill each other in a short fight. Meaning: Mace can't stomp Dooku. I never said he could.

If one is to accept Lucas as word of god then one has to accept that everything he has stated is canon

His statements do hold weight, yes. If he says Mace can compete with Palpatine... it's on you to prove Mace can't compete with Palpatine.

It would be a good fight and Mace would edge it out but don't push him as vastly superior to Grievous.

Grievous also goes on to state in the book that Dooku had been right in his warnings about Mace Windu- what responses he should expect from the Jedi Master. And how did Dooku exemplify Mace's capabilities to Grievous? Fodderizing his MagnaGuards and bringing his blade one milimeter away from Grievous' helmet. So, even in the brief duel, if anyone held the advantage, it was Mace. Also, if Dooku can beat Grievous comfortably, Mace absolutely can. You are the one who shouldn't push Grievous as close to Mace.

Even below you still haven't told me why you think a holding back Dooku isn't clearly stomping the general in the OCW?

We only saw them spar once, and honestly, if you think that was a stomp, I don't know what to tell you. Sure, Dooku is the obvious winner, but I don't know how a stomp can be taken from that.

Dooku literally is monologuing causally without losing his breath and giving grievous tips on how to beat him.

In the beginning. We can see moments where his voice is strained later on, and again, Dooku talking without much effort in the fight only means he's comfortable, not that he's stomping.

If Dooku really wanted to he could curb Grievous

From what we've seen, on a good day Dooku can beat GG comfortably, on a bad day he's given pause by the general. Never have we been shown Dooku curbing Grievous, and by all available evidence, he can't. Sorry.

Mace is a Darth Maul level combatant

Again, baseless assertion. Mace's performance against Palpatine was much better, he's got better accolades and the tiering system puts him above Maul. And no, please don't refer to their "fight" as proof Maul is Mace level. Again, inconclusive.

My post above explains why its not

Sadly, the crux of your argument is Maul being a Mace level combatant, which he absolutely isn't.

quit painting me like I am some biased Richard96

To be like Richard you need to be a bit more than biased, lol. I'm not painting you to be like him.

I just think Windu is lower than you do.

Lower than me and a large majority of the forum. Don't act like I have a particularly high opinion of Mace, because believe me, I don't.

We'll have to stop for a little while though as I need to focus on my CaV.

@dark-sith123: Thats fine. If you want we can end this little debate or we can postpone it for now its up to you :)

@alextheboss:

It was overall

Yeah they're all in the same tier. But there's clearly gaps between them.

Dooku may have more knowledge and techniques. But of these three only Kenobi has defended force attacks from a tier 9 combatant. Kenobi's megalith feat is also the best of the three environmentally.

No. Maul doesn't have feats on par with Dooku in canon. Don't even try the shuttle feat. It's heavily circumstantial.

In canon Mace also has better feats than Maul and Kenobi, Dooku is debatable. But Canon is an inconsistent mess that's pointless debating.