Mace Windu (ROTS) vs Luke Skywalker (ROTJ)

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Void_Reborn

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#1  Edited By Void_Reborn
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VS

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Rules:

  • Fight takes place in Geonosian Arena
  • No BFR

Round 1: Legends only

Round 2: Canon only

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deactivated-5f52e354205ba

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You can’t have both Canon and Legends applicable, it doesn’t work because of separate scalings and whatnot.

But for Canon, Luke, because of his nigh-parity with Vader. Legends has Mace stomping.

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DrunkHC

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EU and canon are basically another verse even the lightsabers in Legends are different, moreover as The_Buddha_ said it doesn’t work because of separate scalings.

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Void_Reborn

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You can’t have both Canon and Legends applicable, it doesn’t work because of separate scalings and whatnot.

But for Canon, Luke, because of his nigh-parity with Vader. Legends has Mace stomping.

@drunkhc said:

EU and canon are basically another verse even the lightsabers in Legends are different, moreover as The_Buddha_ said it doesn’t work because of separate scalings.

True, I forgot about that. It's especially true for these 2 characters. I'll edit the post

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DrunkHC

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Mace(EU) without Vaapad is Dooku level, but Mace has some Hype that indicates he was more powerful. Vader in the old canon (George Lucas) in ROTJ has a power comparable to 80% Sidious (ROTJ), but Vader 80% Sidious is Lucas's final consideration. More formerly, Vader was not so powerful... anyway it's hard to say Star wars before Disney is a huge mess

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alextheboss

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In canon this fight would be really close. It depends on if you think Palpatine threw the fight, and how legit Luke's victory over Vader is. I would give Mace the slight majority due to his experience.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Luke was struggling against Vader in both continuities, so Mace stomps, legends or canon.

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ZR2011

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Mace trounces in canon

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MattyBoi

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#11  Edited By MattyBoi

R1: Mace

R2: Mace

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wholewheat

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#12  Edited By wholewheat

not an expert on legends but yes luke wins canon ~7/10 by vader scaling.

Edit: scratch that, thinking about vader feats more and more just shows the vast gap between mace and vader. i give luke 9/10, not 10/10 because some people think windu>palpatine, which i dont believe. It's not a stomp for luke however, luke doesn't one shot or blitz or anything, it's a pretty close fight.

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Manofthunderbolts65

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Windu curbs both rounds

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Red12789

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Windu

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El_mago

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Windu wins in Legends

Canon Luke on the other hand mandhandles him.

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Red12789

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Chaos239

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Windu wins 1

Luke stomps 2

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firelordiroh

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Round 1: Windu stomps

Round 2: Either way

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mejames255

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Windu wins mid-dif round one, Grandmaster Luke Wins mid-dif round two.

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DrunkHC

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Windu wins mid-dif round one, Grandmaster Luke Wins mid-dif round two.

If that were Grandmaster Luke would be a stomp in favor of Luke here Luke (ROTJ)

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Redshift_Bacon

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#21  Edited By Redshift_Bacon

Windu both rounds, imo. I don't believe in a parity between ROTJ Vader and Luke. I see the fight as Vader holding back a lot, and being very conflicted, as well as trying to turn Luke still, against a Luke who didnt want to kill his father, then at the end becoming Enraged and Amped by said rage. So yea, Rage Amped ROTJ Luke briefly overwhelmed and disarmed a Conflicted+Holding Back Vader.

While Vader is definitely able to defeat Mace, I also see no evidence for Mace Windu being significantly below ROTS Sidious. I would put Vader and Mace in the same tier, around a 9-9.5, with Vader being better in the Force by a good margin, but being equal in sabers, who, IMO, Vader along with Mace are the best in the verse in Pure Skill (Mace being able to Disarm Sidious while having a decent disadvantage in the force, and therefor Mace not being able to strike as Hard or as Fast due to Force-Amp)

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deactivated-6081fb94189dc

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Windu easily.

Canon Darth Sidious >> Canon Vader.

Legends Sidious >> Legends Vader

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Redshift_Bacon

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@camilopezo: Legends ROTS Sidious >> Canon ROTS Sidious

Legends Prime Vader >/= Canon Prime Vader

Canon ROTS Sidious >/= Canon Prime Vader

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Aristeaus

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Mace both rounds.

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Beta_Stage

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I'm echoing others sentiment that Mace wins both rounds. Legends without a doubt. Canon is slightly more up for grabs if one thinks that: Since Vader got stronger in new canon after being in the suit but was still below Palps to the end means that Palps grew in strength. So one could argue - RotJ Palps > Vader ~ RotS Palps. Which then would mean RotJ Luke is ~ RotS Palps. The TRoS novelization throws a wrench in this argument though.

The novel straight up says that Zombie Clone Palps is the strongest person Kylo has ever been in the presences of. That means he is above Luke still. Which is fine because that just means he continued to grow in power, right? Wrong. ZC Palps is officially him at his WEAKEST. Meaning that Luke <<<< Palps. So,in my opinion, Mace, for sure, crushes RotJ Luke.

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ferriserris

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Rage Amped Luke Wins

Regular Luke loses

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Necromancer76

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Windu

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DrunkHC

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kkkkk Wank Mace has no limits! Windu without Vaapad is much weaker than Sidious (ROTS)

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Mace (EU) without Boost

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bunch of fanboys!

Sidious(ROTJ)>>>>>>>Sidious(ROTS)

Sidious never stopped evolving his power ALWAYS increased

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DrunkHC

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#29  Edited By DrunkHC

Windu without boost is weaker than Yoda!

Gillard claims Windu was the secondstrongest jedi being weaker than Yoda

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Yoda>>Windu

Yoda is weaker than Sidious (ROTS)

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firelordiroh

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@drunkhc:

That duel against Saesee Tinn was a spar and several years before TPM if you genuinely think that spar is way to gauge ROTS Windu's power than just stop lol.

ROTJ Luke in legends best feat is fighting evenly against a broken Vader, Mace has better feats, scaling and experience he wins 10/10 in legends.

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Masma94

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Mace wins without a doubt in Legends, he also wins in canon with greater difficulty.

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Manofthunderbolts65

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@red12789: I can hardly see Luke beating any experienced Jedi Master above Fisto tier tbh

He won against Vader cus the latter was conflicted

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firelordiroh

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#33  Edited By firelordiroh

@manofthunderbolts65:

Luke was just as conflicted no to mention there are a dozen sources putting Luke equal to Vader. Not to mention sources stating that Vader was going 100% against Luke.

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Red12789

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@red12789: I can hardly see Luke beating any experienced Jedi Master above Fisto tier tbh

He won against Vader cus the latter was conflicted

But Luke was holding back. Beating a prime Vader even if the latter was conflicted is beyond anything Fitso has ever achieved.

Also I doubt Mace would be able to curbstomp Fitso.

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firelordiroh

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#36  Edited By firelordiroh

@richard96:

The ROTJ script and ROTJ junior novels are other sources supporting Luke's parity with Vader but I don't have them on me right now but unlike legends canon isn't as direct.

Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Source: Beware the Sith (Canon)

By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.

Source: Star War Insider 62 (canon?)

Although he had been only briefly instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great ability in the Force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force (Canon)

^ Implies ESB Luke was a challenge to Vader which is bad for the latter.

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Bayman007

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Obviously Mace wins

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TheOmniDoctor

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Windustomp

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firelordiroh

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DarthAdi

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@firelordiroh: The first 2 sources are not canon. (there are other sources that suggest Luke's relativity to Vader tho).

The last one doesn't mean much as Vader was holding back massively. Luke challanged a holding back Vader. Not to mention that "challanged" is kind of vague.

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DarthAdi

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@beta_stage: Zombie Palpatine is not confirmed to be weaker than ROTS Sidious since Matt Martin's tweets are not biding. Not to mention that if he is weaker he is so only in a combative sense (since he can't move or utilise his full power because of how weak is his clone body), but his raw force power is still greater than in ROTJ/ROTS . Kylo only sensed Palpatine's spirit whose force power would be greater than ever (he just can't use all that power because of his imperfect clone body, as made clear by the novel). Kylo thinking that Palpatine has more raw power than Luke doesn't lock prime Luke behind ROTS Sidious since Zombie Palpatine is not below ROTS Sidious in raw power. There is also Snoke scaling which can put Prime Luke above ROTJ Sidious depending of how you interpret some statements.

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DarthAdi

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#43  Edited By DarthAdi

@firelordiroh: The insider being sourced in an article doesn't make it canon, as the only things on starwars.com that are canon are the ones in the databank. This article was in the blog section where articles are written by some random authors and are not checked by the story group.

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Some random blog authors don't have the authority to make the insider canon, lmao. The insider being sourced means only that

1. The article takes both legends and canon into consideration.

2. The author not having a clue about canon policy.

TLDR: the insider is not canon

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Beta_Stage

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@red12789 said:
@manofthunderbolts65 said:

@red12789: I can hardly see Luke beating any experienced Jedi Master above Fisto tier tbh

He won against Vader cus the latter was conflicted

But Luke was holding back. Beating a prime Vader even if the latter was conflicted is beyond anything Fitso has ever achieved.

Also I doubt Mace would be able to curbstomp Fitso.

Ehhhhhh, he overpowered & disarmed the guy who killed poor Kit effortlessly. I'd say he would most certainly curbstomp him if fighting at the best of his abilities.

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firelordiroh

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Beta_Stage

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@darthadi said:

@beta_stage: Zombie Palpatine is not confirmed to be weaker than ROTS Sidious since Matt Martin's tweets are not biding. Not to mention that if he is weaker he is so only in a combative sense (since he can't move or utilise his full power because of how weak is his clone body), but his raw force power is still greater than in ROTJ/ROTS . Kylo only sensed Palpatine's spirit whose force power would be greater than ever (he just can't use all that power because of his imperfect clone body, as made clear by the novel). Kylo thinking that Palpatine has more raw power than Luke doesn't lock prime Luke behind ROTS Sidious since Zombie Palpatine is not below ROTS Sidious in raw power. There is also Snoke scaling which can put Prime Luke above ROTJ Sidious depending of how you interpret some statements.

1. Him just being in his physically weakest state was my first thought as well. But, during the same twitter conversation, Matt Martin straight says that Big Papa Palps (... Rejuvenated Palpatine) was his most powerful incarnation. He never goes anymore in-depth then that. When asked, he simply goes - this is his weakest (ZC Palps) and this is his strongest (Rejuvenated Palps). So, taking it at face value, this does not bode well for Luke OR Vader for that matter. It also would be a massive contradiction or recton of the new canon power levels. But, this is Disney, I do not think they even know what consistency means.

2. When it comes to Snoke, I assume you mean the line that states he possessed as much Dark Side knowledge as the Emperor? While that is impressive, even in Star Wars, cumulative knowledge does not 100% equal power. Case & point: Dooku obviously had more knowledge than Mace (Jedi & Sith teachings) but he was obviously below him by RotS. So, even if Snoke knew as much as the Emperor, that does not guarantee that he was equal to RotJ (or even RotS) Palps.

SIDENOTE: Due to the nature of their occupations, I consider Pablo Hildago, Matt Martin, & other Story Group members to be the closest thing to Word of God that Disney Canon has. But, of course, that's just my personal opinion.

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firelordiroh

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@darthadi:

"The last one doesn't mean much as Vader was holding back massively." Vader was pulling his punches definitely but Luke gave him a lot "oh shit" moments, Vader going all out or holding back would have never let himself get tagged, that was Luke's own power.

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DarthAdi

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#48  Edited By DarthAdi

@beta_stage: Not sure you understand my point. Zombie Palpatine's raw power (the power of his spirit) is far greater than his aplicable power because his imperfect clone body can't contain his full power (hence his zombie look). Kylo sensed Palpatine's raw power (the power of his spirit), not his aplicable power (which is gimped by his imperfect clone body) when he said that he never felt that much power before. Kylo never said/implied that Luke is sub Zombie Palpatine in aplicable power or that Luke would lose to this version of Palps. Prime Luke being sub zombie Palpatine in raw power does not mean he is sub ROTS Sidious, as Zombie Palps>>>ROTS Palps in raw power (Matt's tweet would refer only to his aplicable power or maybe to his physicall state as there is no reason for Palpatine's spirit to be weaker). Rejuvenated Palpatine is a completly diferrent situation as his body was rejuvenated (and possibly amped by the Dyad?), and now his aplicable power should match his raw power. His phisicall state is also better than ever.

Also, the line about Snoke states that he has as much force mastery as Sidious which is not the same thing as knowledge. Obviously, that line can be interpreted in other ways as well due to it's unclear wording. (the quote could just be saying his mastery of the dark side is equal to that of a Sith Lord, not necessarily the Emperor himself).

BTW, Matt Martin repeatedley said that he didn't worked on this movie and that we shouldn't take his tweets as facts.

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DarthAdi

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#49  Edited By DarthAdi

@firelordiroh: If Vader was going all out he would stomp ESB Luke. Most of these oh shit moments were because Vader was holding back. He probably didn't expect Luke to be able to tag him and was too relaxed letting his guard down (having an armour that can protect you from lightsabers also can make you be more relaxed). Luke tagging him is still proof of his immense potential and talent, but it's clear that was more of a flash of brilliance which took Vader by surprise than his normal level. After Luke tagged him, Vader got serious and ended the fight immediately. We also have the beginnig of the fight where a casual Vader throws Luke to the ground after a blade lock and disarms him but chooses to not kill his son. He could have ended the fight anytime he wanted. Luke challenging a serious Vader in ESB is also a stupid ideea when the same Vader can solo armies. Vader massively holding back is the best and most logical explanation. This, or it was just a low showing like all characters have (Maul vs dog, Anakin vs Clovis, Kylo vs Finn etc).

There are also quotes like these

The experienced Sith Lord easily defeats the untrained Skywalker, chopping off his right hand.

- Star Wars: Galactic Atlas.

"You'll find that I am full of surprises," luke said, but he was posturing. He was no match for the Sith Lord.

- The Empire Strikes Back - 6 stories in 1.

Luke dueled Vader, but proved no match for the Sith Lord's Force powers and experience with a lightsaber.

- Luke Skywalker Biography Gallery, starwars.com.

When Luke faces Vader once more on Cloud City, his skills are still no match for the Sith Lord's mastery

-Ultimate Star Wars-new edition

In their first duel, Darth Vader easily bests the hot-headed, untested Luke, slicing off his right hand. After barely escaping with his life, the young rebel has a new robotic hand-fitted.” wrote:

-Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know

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Manofthunderbolts65

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@beta_stage: if we go that way then Windu still wins cuz he supposedly beat Sidious so yeah