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#251 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: No, the quotes are predominately Legends. Canon does have Mace still being comparable to Palpatine, but not Dooku and Yoda.

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#252 Edited by Richard96 (5811 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Damn , it is like talking to a wall !

I have watched the movie . There is nothing indicating that the fight was going to end after the last bladelock .

The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, NEITHER BESTING THE OTHER. It came down to a contest of lightsabers. In a blurring tangle of speed and light, the two masters of the Force dueled.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin’s lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. DOOKU HELD STRONG, though, HIS RED BLADE PARRYING BRILLIANTLY, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda’s strikes would have driven right through.

Source: Attack of the Clones

With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda.

Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber

With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda in Attack of the Clones.

Source: Star Wars Adventures Magazine #3

It was Count Dooku's combination of finesse and superior craftsmanship that enabled him to best both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, as well as hold his own against Jedi Master Yoda, during the Battle of Geonosis.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

Here, his decades of lightsabre training gave him the ability to parry and riposte against Yoda's frenzied Form IV fighting style. Although THE MATCH ENDED IN A STALEMATE, many Jedi believed Dooku would return for another confrontation with the Jedi.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #68

- I have proved yoda wasn't holding back ( a saber blow on your head = you are dead ) . Besides, he redirected Dooku's lighting on the latter' face, Dooku parried it and the lighting damaged badly a stone wall .

- yoda deflected Dooku's lighting not with ease .

- several sources attested Dooku held his own

Dooku would have been obliterated? If yoda was able to ragdoll him , he would have done it. Ragdolling would have been the best way to incap him without killing him, considering that you are saying he didn't want to kill him ( I proved otherwise). However , Dooku has feats that rivals yoda's in TK. He can't be ragdolled and he showed he was able to parry his own lighting . Yoda had no way to defeat him only with force powers .

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#253 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Ah yes, I remember now that it was a subjective quote, so I guess it doesn't count that much.

Ventress and Obi-Wan blocked it on their blades. Anakin and Ventress were pummeled by Dooku's Lightning without their sabers.

IIRC, they were both not in the position to defend themselves when this happened.

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#254 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: Subjective or not, it wouldn't be a retcon.

Fair enough, but neither Obi-Wan nor Ventress were in Yoda's position when they repelled Dooku's Lightning. The comparison's invalid no matter where you try to go with it. Mace repelled Palpatine's Lightning fine on his blade but failed to do so via Tutaminis per the RotS script.

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#255 Edited by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: No, wait, if it was objective, then it would be a retcon, unless many sources said otherwise. But this is not a case of retcon, so whatever.

Fair enough, I had forgotten that Lightning is supposed to be "nearly impossible" to deflect with the Force per several sources.

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#256 Posted by Necromancer76 (3783 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: You've literally already posted those sources.

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#257 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: No, I just said that LoE's quote was an off-hand remark that neither improved a story or tried to fit contradicting elements together. That's what a retcon has to be. LoE's quote would just be publishing contradictory information after another source, which in of itself is not a retcon. The original source material should always take precedence over off-hand remarks and recounts from other sources, as well as supplementary sources. Otherwise, you'd have the Revan novel's absurd claim of tens of thousands of Jedi after the Jedi Civil War winning out against a host of sources saying that there were barely a hundred Jedi left, for example.

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#258 Edited by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: My point was that LOE shouldn't necessarily be treated as a retcon because the quote is from the POV of Dooku, who didn't see Yoda visibly struggling with Lightning, so his musing is probably flawed, whereas Yoda is obviously more qualified to say whether something was difficult for him or not.

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#259 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: Yes, I'm aware of that. I was just saying that even if it was an objective quote, it doesn't qualify as a retcon; rather, it's simply contradictory information being published after the AotC novel, which, as the original source material, still takes precedence.

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#260 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: I get this rule when it comes to more basic, self-evident facts, unless most sources say otherwise, but when it comes to power levels, why should the original take precedence? Not that it really bothers me in this case, given that Dooku's lightning seems to be pretty underrated, but I don't get how and who established the rule.

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#261 Posted by Richard96 (5811 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

I have posted others . They still stand, and prove my point

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#262 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: This is about facts, not just power levels, lol. Retcons aren't just a matter of what comes first or second.

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#263 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: So a retcon is valid based on the intention behind it?

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#264 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: Partly, yeah. It has to be an intentional change to improve a story or reconcile contradictory story elements. Otherwise, Beldorion being spelled "Beldorian" in later sourcebooks would be a retcon, but it's just an error. The source material is right unless it's clear they're trying to change it.

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#265 Edited by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Mmm okay, not entirely convinced, but after all there's no need to discuss this any longer since we agree on the main matter: Dooku gave Yoda trouble. So, back to the actual fight, he and Mace should win.

Just one doubt: didn't the new Fact File become canon after a certain issue? Because I recall it eventually started addressing solely canon events and characters (including some Rebels stuff).

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#266 Edited by Kiadi-Monday (298 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure the SW databank states that Yoda 'easily' reflected Dooku's lightning and forced Dooku into a 'hasty' retreat once they clashed blades. Dooku getting dominated by peers of Yoda (Sidious and Talzin), also make me question this idea that Dooku is comparable to Yoda as a force practitioner.

Regardless, Team 1 should win. With Mace as the MVP.

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#267 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiadi-monday: Sure, but that's a source that has bearing only in Canon, not in Legends, which is what we're currently discussing.

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#268 Posted by Kiadi-Monday (298 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871 said:

@kiadi-monday: Sure, but that's a source that has bearing only in Canon, not in Legends, which is what we're currently discussing.

True, it is a Canon source. But the original source material for the Dooku/Yoda fight (AOTC) is also Canon. It'd make more sense for Canon sources to take precedence when talking about the movies and events which occur within them, wouldn't it?

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#269 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiadi-monday: Last I recall, the novels aren't Canon, per Pablo Hidalgo. And even then, one could argue that's the original source, and thus that it would take precedence.

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#270 Posted by Necromancer76 (3783 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: I also countered those points, so they don't really stand but ok.

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#271 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiadi-monday:

Talzin never dominated dooku without circumstancs/prep.

Sids domination could easily be explained by dooku having his defenses down

Also, easily deflecting someone's lighting =/ being far more powerful than them

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#272 Posted by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

-the making of revenge of the sith

Here's the second link relating to Vader:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GVndPQC7LA0

OK great and thank you. =) I posted your response in a fb group.

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#273 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio
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#274 Posted by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with you about the Yoda/ Dooku fight.

Pretty sure the SW databank states that Yoda 'easily' reflected Dooku's lightning and forced Dooku into a 'hasty' retreat once they clashed blades. Dooku getting dominated by peers of Yoda (Sidious and Talzin), also make me question this idea that Dooku is comparable to Yoda as a force practitioner.


Regardless, Team 1 should win. With Mace as the MVP.

@zapan871 said:

@shootingnova: Mmm okay, not entirely convinced, but after all there's no need to discuss this any longer since we agree on the main matter: Dooku gave Yoda trouble. So, back to the actual fight, he and Mace should win.

Just one doubt: didn't the new Fact File become canon after a certain issue? Because I recall it eventually started addressing solely canon events and characters (including some Rebels stuff).

Maybe this will help. It's from the novelization of Attack of the Clones:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

It seems to me that even though Yoda did become tired in this duel that he is clearly the better of the two. It seems that, at least in this one novel, that Tyranus tried his best against Yoda, and yet Yoda barely had to do anything.

@zapan871 said:

@kiadi-monday: Last I recall, the novels aren't Canon, per Pablo Hidalgo. And even then, one could argue that's the original source, and thus that it would take precedence.

The movie novelizations are no longer canon, but in old canon, they were top tier, G canon. The OP is about canon and EU characters, so I would think that EU is just as important in this fight. Otherwise, it's pointless to argue it.

@kiadi-monday:

Talzin never dominated dooku without circumstancs/prep.

Sids domination could easily be explained by dooku having his defenses down

Also, easily deflecting someone's lighting =/ being far more powerful than them

She absolutely dominated Dooku. Even his strength in the Dark Side couldn't force her from his body. It took Dooku plus Sids to repel her.

Where do you find the source saying that easily deflecting lighting = more powerful than them? If this is true, then we can apply that to Talzin. She took on Dooku's lightning and Sidious' lightning at the same time and deflected it for a good while before GG killed her.

Saying that she prepared for him is a little bit confusing because Dooku was preparing for her as well (through Sidious' instructions). This is just proof that intellectually dominated him in addition to physically dominating him.

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#275 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Yea not sure where you're gettign the sids gave dooku instructions on how to counter talzin's sorcery from, regardless...

A. It took talzin 14 panels to drain dooku. Time which of course Talzin wouldn't get if dropped in an engagement cold.

B. Talzin "had to get ready" to perform the ritual meaning it wouldn't have been done in a fair fight where both combatants are dropped in cold.

Dathomir amps Talzin. Sidious is canonically stronger than her on even ground. And while Sids had an incredibly weak dooku helping him, Talzin took a buff from a totally fresh maul.

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#276 Posted by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

Yea not sure where you're gettign the sids gave dooku instructions on how to counter talzin's sorcery from, regardless...

A. It took talzin 14 panels to drain dooku. Time which of course Talzin wouldn't get if dropped in an engagement cold.

B. Talzin "had to get ready" to perform the ritual meaning it wouldn't have been done in a fair fight where both combatants are dropped in cold.

Dathomir amps Talzin. Sidious is canonically stronger than her on even ground. And while Sids had an incredibly weak dooku helping him, Talzin took a buff from a totally fresh maul.

Sidious didn't give Dooku instructions on how to counter Talzin's sorcery. Sidious has a form of prescience, and he planned for the encounter with Talzin in a similar way that Talzin planned for their encounter with Sidious and Dooku. Based on Sidious' ability to plan things ahead of time, he told Dooku what to expect so he could be prepared for her, and I got that from the Son of Dathomir comic. They both plan ahead of time. Go back and read the comic and you'll see what I'm talking aobut.

A. And he lost in the end, right?

I don't think that she'd be able to fight him physically, but that doesn't mean she can't fight him "cold". She'd employ her powers, and I have no idea why it matters how she combats him.

B. Are you saying that she has no other tactics to combat him? For this one enchantment she had to prepare. She did just fine fighting off his lightning, but yes she need help from Maul. Considering she was fighting against Sidious as well, I don't really understand how this example can be used.. This fight was discussed in detail in the past, and there really is no way to tease exactness out of it. You were involved in that discussion, and IIRC, you and I discussed Talzin/ Dooku in the Dark Side, and you conceded that Talzin > Dooku in DS ability or strength; icr which one. You also conceded that I wasn't discussing Talzin and physical combat. I readily said that I don't think that she would be victorious in a physical duel.

We know from other stories, such as the Wrath of Darth Maul, that Talzin can use her magick during combat without wasting time.

Can you please tell me why Talzin has an amp on Dathomir and Dooku doesn't? Also, is that stated in the comic?

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#277 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

1. yea, when he wasn't allowed to fight back and when talzin had a lengthy period of time to attack dooku and specifically prepared to do so with a ritual. Completely non-applicable in typical combat.

2., You're using the example, not me. And no, I don't think one even ground talzin can beat dooku. While she may or may not be more powerful(she only matched sids on dathomir and was inferior elsewhere), she certainly isn't more powerful by a bigger margin than yoda is. And as sidious has remarked her saber skills are utterly insufficient. There's no reason to think on even ground in fair circumstances with dooku fighting back and not defenseless he couldn't beat her.

3. It's stated in rebels, dathomir is the source of the nightsister's power.

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#278 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: Yep, but these quotes were part of scans Ant posted on KMC which included Legends material. They're not canon.

And yeah, the novels are Legends.

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#279 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio
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#280 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: I asked Ant but he couldn't offer me any.

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#281 Posted by deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28 (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871 said:

@shootingnova: Mmm okay, not entirely convinced, but after all there's no need to discuss this any longer since we agree on the main matter: Dooku gave Yoda trouble. So, back to the actual fight, he and Mace should win.

Just one doubt: didn't the new Fact File become canon after a certain issue? Because I recall it eventually started addressing solely canon events and characters (including some Rebels stuff).

It's really difficult to be honest, when the canon shift was announced they were working on issue nr 39 but even beyond that there issues covering Legends characters and Canon characters at the same time.

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#282 Posted by RedHeathen (2246 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

3. It's stated in rebels, dathomir is the source of the nightsister's power.

As to 1 and 2 - we're not going to agree, but as to 3, thanks. Why doesn't Dooku get an amp on Dathomir? I know the Dark Side is strong there, so why doesn't it help him as well? My point in originally asking was to mete out why it matters that there is an amp there because other Dark Siders should be affected by it. It has a negative effect on light side users, iirc... I haven't watched the series in a while, and maybe I'm thinking of book, but somewhere in SW lore, didn't Kenobi and Skywalker go to Dathomir? Wasn't Anakin really amped there? I might be way off base, but there is something tugging on the back of my mind...

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#284 Posted by Dispray (67 posts) - - Show Bio

Kun and Ulic wreck.