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#202 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: You're cool. Just come in here with nothing to provide to the thread but insults. Congratulations.

That's what I would call derailing a thread.

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#203 Edited by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker said:

@lordofthelight:

Vader is highly implied to have onenes there iirc.

The only source that sort of implies that is The Unifying Force, but no other source, at least to my knowledge, depicts Vader experiencing anything similar to Oneness.

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#204 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Funny, because what I would call derailing a thread is bringing up a discussion topic that has nothing to do with the intention of the OP and does nothing to further the topic of the thread, and continuing to do so. You started the Revan talk at page two and continued it for two pages because you think you're the new Revan "lowball" police.

Congratulations. That's what derailing a thread is. You can look it up if you don't believe me.

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#205 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Both of your posts literally contributed nothing to Star Wars as a whole, nor did they help increase the intelligence of users in any way. Sure, I got off topic, but at least I was debating with someone, while also increasing the knowledge of the people viewing. And, since you can't read, you can go back to the last page and see Richard and I discussing Dooku vs Yoda to determine whether Kun would be Dooku or not. (The OT)

You literally posted in this thread to cause problems. Do it again and I'm discussing it with a mod. Comic Vine Battles are for debating, not for insulting.

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#206 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Good for you. I wasted two posts on this thread complaining about he debating going on, you wasted two pages. Whine all you want, you've done almost nothing but detail the thread. I've literally read and told you that you wasted two pages of his thread, to which you agree, and yet you try or insult me by claiming I can't read. Embarrassing. And don't even act as if any of your "debates" have done what you're suggesting, contributing to Star Wars as a whole or improving the intelligence of other users. You think way too highly of yourself if you think you're increasing the knowledge of people viewing with your Revan talk.

Nope, I posted in this thread to give my thoughts on the battle. You, on the other hand, saw someone disagree with you about how and where you place Revan in the hierarchy of Force users and attempted for two pages to go off-topic and "debate" them. All I did was point it out. You can call a mod all you want, I couldn't care less. But if you think they'll ignore your blatant derailing and hypocrisy (claiming that CV is for debating not insulting while you've insulted every person you tried to debate in this thread), then you're only fooling yourself.

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#207 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: Still trying to cause problems I see. And you also completely avoided the fact that Richard and I were on topic before you tried to piss me off for literally no reason. If the thread derails again, it's your fault.

I didn't insult anyone in this thread. I said statements were irrational, but I never called anyone a character wanker, full of himself, or foolish, like you've done in the past 2 hours.

"Leave it to the new guy to derail a thread with two pages of his Revan wank when he's not even in the battle to begin with. Lol" This statement literally reeks of instigation. There was no effort to try to stop the derailing (that already stopped hours ago), and then you proceeded to insult me. There was no point whatsoever to this post. You could have just said "Stay on topic please." But you couldn't do that now, could you? You just enjoy trying to anger people?

Thank you for "pointing out" that the thread derailed hours ago. You can move on and insult someone else.

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#208 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

And you also completely avoided the fact that Richard and I were on topic before you tried to piss me off for literally no reason.

Yeah, good job for doing what you're supposed to do in the first place.

If the thread derails again, it's your fault

Seeing as how you replied to me and keep replying, the reason it's derailing again is cause of you.

I didn't insult anyone in this thread. I said statements were irrational, but I never called anyone a character wanker, arrogant, or foolish, like you've done in the past 2 hours.

You clearly did. And funny, I don't remember calling you or anyone arrogant or foolish. I'd ask you to show me where I did, but seeing as how A) I already know I didn't and B) it would only derail the thread more, it would be pointless.

Thank you for "pointing out" that the thread derailed hours ago.

Thanks for derailing it in the first place.

You can move on and insult someone else.

You can stop replying and stop derailing any time you want.

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#209 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: You said I think too highly of myself (arrogant) and I'm fooling myself (foolish).

I do enjoy how you start a fight and blame it on someone else. I'll be the bigger man and stop replying to your posts that have already derailed the thread quite a bit, but please, in the future, don't post in a thread to start a fight EVER again.

Or I'm reporting you.

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#210 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

You said I think too highly of myself (arrogant) and I'm fooling myself (foolish).

So no instances of where I called you arrogant or foolish, just you assuming. Good to know.

And funny to think how you believe those are insults and yet ignore your own. Selective reading at its finest.

I do enjoy how you start a fight and blame it on someone else.

And I enjoy how you think this was a "fight" in any sense of the word.

I'll be the bigger man and stop replying to your posts that have already derailed the thread quite a bit, but please, in the future, don't post in a thread to start a fight EVER again.

Or I'm reporting you.

Yeah, I'm free to post whatever I want. You threatening to report me literally has no effect on whether I decide to post a certain way or not at all.

But please, in the future, don't post in a thread to derail it EVER again.

Or I'm reporting you.

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#211 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: @emperor339: It is, but the problem is that of Vader had oneness there it's not really a va,I'd showing.

Thankfully, the malachor's showing is valid and features Vader tanking at point blank an explosion capable of completely disintegrating multiple freighters. In other words a feat of tk vastly more impressive than anything revan has to offer

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#212 Posted by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: You amuse me. Your skill in changing what people say and causing problems has earned you a title.

TheVivas, it is my greatest honor and privilege to award you the title of...... The INSTIGATOR!!!!!!

Congratulations. If I could give you a medal, I would.

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#213 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Where the f did I ever say anything about a rage amp? Both vader's cathedral and malachor's showings are completely valid and both are far more impressive, Vader was also massively pre prime whe. He did the cathedral feat and he did it while nearly dead

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#214 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: I would respond but the Instigator is just gonna annoy me and cause more trouble.

To be continued.

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#215 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123: one source is suffecient if uncomtradicted, but regardless as I've said, he doesn't need that to be>revan. He already has better feats aside from that birth in canon or legends

But anyway we've been way off topic here.

On topic dooku/mace can per canonical quotes legitimately contend with yoda/sids who through scaling are vastly above kun/ulic. Team 1 wrecks house here

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#216 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas:

Don't bother yourself with necro bud

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#217 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: More derailing and insulting. Fabulous.

When I get back to my laptop, I'll bring the mods here. Should have known that "bigger man" nonsense was just that.

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#218 Edited by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker said:

@freesid_stf123: one source is suffecient if uncomtradicted, but regardless as I've said, he doesn't need that to be>revan. He already has better feats aside from that birth in canon or legends

The thing is, The Unifying force is ambiguous with regards to whether Vader was in oneness or not, and the ROTJ novel stated that Vader was at his weakest when he was struggling with Palpatine, and everything else just points to an injured Vader using what power he had left to throw palps down into the reactor core.

But anyway we've been way off topic here.

Yea, that's true.

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#219 Edited by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@penguinlover: Well, for one, he died. So yeah, that's obviously going to affect him poorly. Then he absorbed the power of the Machine Core, a device capable of destroying all life on Yavin. Almost any other character in the Star Wars universe cannot do this.

When was Revan a threat to Vitiate? Oh, I don't know. Maybe when a pre-prime Revan--after being drugged and tortured for 3 years straight--had a 50/50 chance of defeating Vitiate. That right there puts Revan just below, if not equal to, Vitiate.

You actually just said Vaylin's feats are superior to Revan. Even after a weakened Revan ragdolled essentially 6-8 Outlanders, plus 3 more force wielders and 3 legendary non-force wielders. And Revan didn't kill them because of PIS. If he did, there would be no KOTFE, so there would be no Vaylin.

Out of the 3 people trying to debate with me right now, you're argument makes me cringe the most. But I do have an idea for you. Make a SoR Revan vs Vaylin thread, and see what happens.

1. And the Outlander was nowhere near his full potential at this point in time, however I digress in favour of your second point.

2. If you're talking about the fight with Vitiate in the novel, this was what happened when Vitiate started to take Revan seriously:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

(Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

How precisely was this a close fight? Yes, Revan had been tortured and drugged for many years, but this is a Vitiate who was far from his prime who still stomped Revan when he took the fight seriously. I'm not going to say that SOR Revan would lose to novel Vitiate because that is a distinct possibility, but the Outlander could potentially defeat him as well, having been considered a significant from the considerably more powerful Valkorian:

But the immortal Emperor could not be vanquished so easily. He evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander, his most powerful opponent.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Official Profile)

3. First of all, he also failed to incapacitate any of the people involved in that battle, Force sensitive or not. He was incapable of even wounding these opponents with his TK. Again, I point to the example of Vaylin's less powerful brother Arcann:

No Caption Provided

Here is one such instance of Arcann telekinetically ragdolling the Outlander, to the point where Arcann was able to casually stroll across the room before they could even begin to recover.

No Caption Provided

Here, he telekinetically dominated a post-training Outlander who was considerably more powerful than his pre-training self even shortly after his training with Satele and Marr, and don't even get me started on a comparison of the lightning that both Arcann and Revan endured from the Sith Emperor.

You mentioned PIS, in which case I refer to Arcann easily ragdolling the Outlander. If he had so much power, why did he try to engage him in lightsaber combat instead of simply killing him with the Force?

Vaylin was powerful enough to ragdoll Senya, Arcann and even throw back the Outlander at the same time when she was able to tap into her full power. Chained Vaylin was also able to ragdoll Lana Beniko and overpower the Outlander in the Force (though he/she eventually grew to be more powerful). While chained, she was still powerful enough to fight evenly with Arcann, and several sources said that even when weakened Vaylin was more powerful than Arcann. As I also stated, she managed to destroy a facility on Nathema while in orbit without a visual connection to the building, and her chained self was able to rip apart a huge structure and throw it with impressive accuracy. For reference, see the video below:

https://imgur.com/BytFLox.

I'm still not seeing how Revan is more powerful than Vaylin in the Force, let alone the Outlander who defeated her twice. Knocking back 8 people at once, including the protagonist is certainly an impressive feat, and I am not disputing that SOR Revan is exceptionally powerful, however Vaylin simply has more feats and most of these feats do not rely on game mechanics, leading me to believe that she is more powerful in the Force.

4. Thanks, I'm so glad that a person on the internet views me with such contempt. That has truly upset me. For the record, insulting other people just makes you seem petty and rather immature. If you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you without belittling or otherwise insulting them, don't bother debating. Keep in mind these are just characters; I'm not insulting you or anything like that, so I would appreciate you doing the same.

In any case, I don't want to take this off-topic anymore than it already has been so I'm ending this now. Apologies to the OP for my part in derailing this.

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#220 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

Just remembered Necro said Revan is about equal to Vitiate. Lmao

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#221 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio
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#222 Posted by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@thevivas: I'd respond to you, but you're derailing the topic.

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#223 Posted by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: I'd respond, but the Instigator is on the prowl. We can continue in another thread if you'd like.

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#224 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: And I'd respond to that, but it would be more Revan wank. Glad to see you know when to stop derailing a thread now.

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#225 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio
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#226 Posted by TheVivas (19447 posts) - - Show Bio
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#227 Posted by RedHeathen (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

it means he can challenge sids, even if he can't beat him, and that sids can't just stomp him

@redheathen said:

And why don't either of you consider Legends anymore? This is an EU OP, so why is only canon considered for Windu and Dooku?

I'm not only considering canon. But the movies are the central part of the eu so lucas's word still matters(I'm looking for the quote)

What GL says is important to me as well. Did you ever find the quote?

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#228 Edited by RedHeathen (2242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#229 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker@freesid_stf123

Can I have the exact quote? Because many other things are confused with oneness. It could very well be a convenient misrepresentation.

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#230 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6207 posts) - - Show Bio

This is hilarious. How to destroy your credibility in 2 pages

Who gives titles!?

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#231 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen: "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

-the making of revenge of the sith

Here's the second link relating to Vader:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GVndPQC7LA0

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#232 Posted by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio
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#233 Edited by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Don't be so judgemental, not everyone subscribes to your way of thinking.

But to be fair, giving titles is useless in a argument, he's probably just having fun.

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#234 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

this thread's funny

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#235 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader can't create winds? He's generated some massive ones with Alter Environment; the wind supposedly created by Revan in SoR looks like a breeze in comparison, and that was on the dark side saturated world of Yavin IV.

Back on topic, with Mace and Dooku being comparable to the likes of Yoda and Sidious, I wouldn't be hard-pressed to see them beating Kun and Qel-Droma here.

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#236 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Considering that even novel vitiate has statements of superiority on kun/ulic, there's no way team 2 is taking this

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#237 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
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#238 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

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#239 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Yeah, that's referring to him as of SWTOR, not when he performed the ritual. He wasn't even the Sith Emperor at the time of the ritual, yet the quote refers to him as such.

In other words, it's referring to past events but uses a present moniker for Vitiate. The accolade itself follows the naming system (ie. present-tense), so it only refers to him as of TOR.

Regardless, this doesn't make much of a difference. SWTOR Vitiate is still stronger than either Kun or Qel-Droma; Palpatine and Yoda in turn can still claim superiority over Vitiate and hence superiority over Kun and Qel-Droma also — by a considerable margin, I might add. Dooku and Mace being comparable to Yoda and Sidious at all in the realm of the Force all but eliminates Kun and Qel-Droma's chances of winning via Force attacks.

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#240 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Yeah, that's referring to him as of SWTOR, not when he performed the ritual. He wasn't even the Sith Emperor at the time of the ritual, yet the quote refers to him as such.

In other words, it's referring to past events but uses a present moniker for Vitiate. The accolade itself follows the naming system (ie. present-tense), so it only refers to him as of TOR.

Ah fair enough.

Regardless, this doesn't make much of a difference. SWTOR Vitiate is still stronger than either Kun or Qel-Droma; Palpatine and Yoda in turn can still claim superiority over Vitiate and hence superiority over Kun and Qel-Droma also — by a considerable margin, I might add. Dooku and Mace being comparable to Yoda and Sidious at all in the realm of the Force all but eliminates Kun and Qel-Droma's chances of winning via Force attacks.

And off course by virtue of the blade, facing off vs dooku who is "almost equal" to yoda and mace who is an "eight bordering 9" who can compete with the emperor leaves the duo royally screwed

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#241 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Yeah, whether you go at it via feats or accolades, Dooku and Mace are just better with a blade, while their scaling keeps them safe from team 2's Force powers. It's an unquestionable win for Mace and Tyranus here.

Though that's not to say that Mace and Dooku are devoid of feats of that calibre either — Dooku has pressing Yoda with his Lightning in the AotC novelization while Mace has telekientically redirecting himself from Palpatine's Force Push near-instantly despite being caught off-guard in the RotS novelization.

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#242 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova thanks to the quotes az uncovered regarding yoda needing to use the blade to stop the count, you could probably make an argument for dooku/windu vs anyone up untill rots save for anakin, yoda, and sids

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#243 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Really? How is it that Dooku and Mace were elevated so much?

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#244 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: It was uncovered by Ant, actually, but yeah, I've put it in my respect thread and I'm glad that Azronger's putting it to use. Note that this quote isn't even alone on the matter; it's backed up by quotes ranging from Dooku's own claim in AotC to TCSWE to Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force (you can find them all on my RT) — most of these quotes could be dismissed on certain grounds beforehand but now that this quote's come out, they all work together to place Dooku near Yoda (his AotC incarnation, at least) in the domain of the Force.

Something like Dooku pressuring Yoda with his Lightning (AotC novelization) would support such a thing as well. As for Yoda easily repelling Dooku's object-throwing, that means nothing because object-throwing isn't an full measure of a Force user's telekinetic potency to begin with; Luke managed to repel some objects that Vader threw at him in the novelization of ESB. So the typical arguments against Dooku vs Yoda (Force) in AotC can be dismissed.

The same Fact File series that Ant posted scans of includes a quote saying that Mace has powers "on a par with Yoda", for the record.

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#245 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
@zapan871 said:

Really? How is it that Dooku and Mace were elevated so much?

It's confirmed that Yoda couldn't beat Dooku via the Force in AotC (see my Dooku RT part 2 for the quotes), and Mace is capable of competing with the Emperor, which at least demands comparable Force power. The novel also has him being able to telekinetically avert the direction of his movement within a split-second (he had mere centimetres before he'd have been thrown out of the window) after Sidious threatened to blow him out of the window with TK (note that he was knocked out of Vaapad by this move as well so he wasn't amped). There's also some quotes comparing Mace to Yoda in Force power.

That being said, I'm kind of glad this is happening since I reckon that people vastly overexaggerate the gaps between characters to begin with. This should prove that the disparities aren't nearly as big as most people make them out to be.

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#246 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Additionally though, we also have quotes of authority putting vader above dooku.

So all this can be used to raise not only vader, but off course those who have parity/near parity with him, such as kenobi/ahsoka

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#247 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Which quotes are those?

Regardless, Vader should be closer to Palpatine than most people have him, IMO.

And no, you can't mix and match Legends and Canon.

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#248 Posted by Zapan871 (2006 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Alright just a few small things.

Something like Dooku pressuring Yoda with his Lightning (AotC novelization) would support such a thing as well.

Wasn't that retconned, even in Legends? And I find it suspect that Yoda would have trouble, when Ventress and Kenobi blocked it (with difficulty in the former's case), albeit via different means.

That being said, I'm kind of glad this is happening since I reckon that people vastly overexaggerate the gaps between characters to begin with. This should prove that the disparities aren't nearly as big as most people make them out to be.

Yeah, good to see Dooku is being raised. I guess you now can't say people Plagueis or Valky would oneshot them anymore, given their superiors can't.

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#249 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

1. i'll try to find the statements later. They were implications from both eloni and sid shimself iirc

2. Well most cv battles tend to composite. And the quotes comapring yoda/sids to mace/dooku are canon aren't they?

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#250 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@zapan871: A retcon has to be a deliberate act invoked for the sake of improving story or fitting contradictory story elements together. The LoE quote is neither; that is simply contradictory information released after the fact (ie. misinformation), not a retcon. Incorrect information being released later is just a contradiction as opposed to a retcon, and the source material should always take precedence.

Ventress and Obi-Wan blocked it on their blades. Anakin and Ventress were pummeled by Dooku's Lightning without their sabers.