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#151 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: This is a hypothetical incarnation of Revan I am talking about. SoR Revan and Caedus are nigh equals. And I mean, if you don't want to debate game mechanics, then don't debate about Revan the Returned. He is a game character whose feats occur in game. Cutscenes give him too few feats and powers to use in a combat scenario. If you would like to compare only cutscene feats, Nova and I debated and agreed Tenebrous and Revan are equals (in "canon" feats), so you can debate Caedus vs Tenebrous instead.

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#152 Edited by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@penguinlover: This is a hypothetical incarnation of Revan I am talking about. SoR Revan and Caedus are nigh equals. And I mean, if you don't want to debate game mechanics, then don't debate about Revan the Returned. He is a game character whose feats occur in game. Cutscenes give him too few feats and powers to use in a combat scenario. If you would like to compare only cutscene feats, Nova and I debated and agreed Tenebrous and Revan are equals (in "canon" feats), so you can debate Caedus vs Tenebrous instead.

That's like me saying that Starkiller from TFU game is more powerful than Sidious due to him defeating him, and thus full potential Starkiller is as powerful or almost as powerful as DE Sidious due to Sidious saying that Starkiller could have been Sidious' equal. Hypothetical characters are hardly a concrete source of comparison as they are just that; hypothetical. Comparing one to a character with established feats is an unreliable source of debate.

Caedus was able to temporarily hold his own against a bloodlusted Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. In contrast, it's arguable that as of KOTET the Outlander is more powerful than Revan himself, being able to defeat Arcann, Vaylin, and even pose a significant threat to Valkorian. Centuries prior to Valkorian reaching the level of power he was at in KOTET, Revan lost handily to a pre-prime Vitiate.

Even though he posed a considerable threat to Valkorian, the Outlander is far below Grandmaster Luke in power scaling and was telekinetically dominated by Valkorian, yet if he's arguably more powerful than Revan what chance does Revan have against Caedus?

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#153 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: That's... not a good comparison. Prime Revan was real, we just never saw him in action because he was tortured, tortured again for 300 years, then died, then came back to life and absorbed the power of the machine core. That version of Starkiller doesn't really exist.

If you call holding his own getting wrecked, sure. And you are so very wrong in the Outlander over Revan. An extremely weakened version of Revan ragdolled him + another strike team twice. Revan would easily defeat the likes of Arcann and Vaylin because of this feat. And let me remind you the Outlander was buffed when he "defeated" Valkorion, who was already extremely weak because he was a force ghost. (And Revan was tortured for 3 straight years before he fought Vitiate).

So no, the Outlander is not "arguably more powerful than Revan." The Outlander would probably lose to Darth Maul/Darth Traya tier Sith, both of which Revan would stomp. Revan is more powerful in the Force, Caedus is more skilled in dueling, putting them at nigh equals.

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#154 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_wspanialy: I just read what you said at the end of this statement. I'm glad I'm not the only person who witnesses all of this Tenebrous wank.

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#155 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser: This is a composite thread by the way, not exclusively legends meaning canon takes prority

1. Yea the scan only supports my point. Nomi clearly indicates people who can't connect to the force can't do whatmi clearly indicates people who can't connect to the force can't do what ulic did.

Based on?

Multiple statements putting vitiate as the most powerful dude up until stwor. Even as of his novel incarnation?

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

-----

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

-----

Enigmatic and supremely powerful, the Emperor directs his domain from the shadows and manipulates the galaxy to carry out his will.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

-----

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Per the last statement, even fcking novel vitiate is more powerful than kun

Um...Based on what? Feats? Possibly. If your referring to that blurb at the back of his novel I would merely note that would also imply Plagueis>DE Sidious, so you will forgive me if I take it with a pinch of salt.

Yes, because de Sidious is definitely relevant when discussing a pre-tpm quote....

Plagueis is>Valk. An inferior to novel vitiate is hilariously out of his depth here

Via Vaapad? Assuming we are discussing legends material which in the context of Ulic V Kun we are. Is suddenly Vaapad not a thing anymore?

The argument is that the boost mace got wasn't a one time thing. Rather that due to the massive character confrontation that mace was faced with(learning the republic was under control of the sith and letting go of his only attachment)m that was actually a permanent boost(I'd read nova's argument as conveys it better than I do) . And regardless of whether sids threw the fight or not, thanks to lucas's statements saying so, and by virtue of mace being an 8 bordering 9(meaning he's right below yoda/sids/anakin's level) we know mace can compete with sids , which is definitely more than I can say for kun who's less powerful than even a pre prime vitate.

Mace=Yoda? Look, I know iv'e been on break from the forums for a while but seriously what did I miss?

No, what I said was that mace can compete with yoda, and yoda, who dooku can compete with, is ~sids. Yoda~sids, Yoda is not=windu.

Additionally there's this as well:

http://imgur.com/Vk9Cm69

Mace was "holding his own" vs sids by virtue of being a powerful lightsaber wielder

Could you do me the favor of finding and allowing me to look at these quotes in greater detail? It would be much appreciated.

Here's the quote and az'a analysis:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16186643#post16186643

If Yoda can't beat dooku only using his force powers, then neither can kun who thanks to scaling is vastly weaker.

And off course there's this here yoda was forced to use his lightsaber even though he always used the force first:

http://imgur.com/cmojE3e

This would force kun to have to try and outduel the good count. Which of course isn't going to end too well considering the following from the above:

"Although neither opponent had a clear advantage, yoda had begun to gain the upperhand"

There's also this:

http://imgur.com/TPRkxPX

"Yoda and Dooku were almost equals"

Really given all of the above, I'd say dooku/mace are well above kun/ulic's paygrades

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#156 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Revan tanked an attack so powerful that it can destroy all life on a planet. There is no Jedi or Sith anywhere close to that level except Plagueis tanking Sidious' lightning. Anakin surviving an explosion is infinitely weaker than Revan's feat.

Plus, Vader was limping after that explosion. Revan tanked the attack, and then fought against two strike teams, which would both beat Vader in a fight.

This never happened

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#157 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Yes...yes it did. He absorbed the power of the Machine Core because he was interrupted by the strike team during his ritual. The Machine Core has the power to destroy all life on Yavin.

Clearly you need to read this more: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revan-respect-thread-2017/95278/

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#158 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Just starting this off with a quote from SN in his debate with you.

I don't know if I've said this yet, but the extent to which you've constantly misunderstood me is incredibly frustrating. I'm constantly having to repeat or reword basic sentences for reasons known only to yourself.

Take that as you will.

Okay let's start with the obvious.

the one about TK, how it took him like 15 seconds to lift debris

Nice attempt at a lowball. Shall I bring up how Revan has struggled against normal humans and droids? It's Rebels. A more subdued medium. Vader has done stuff like this on a dime in canon as well. Rebels is an outlier.

No Caption Provided

Vader has fought off entire armies unscathed. You are attempting to isolate a single instance that is a ridiculous outlier in a medium of which the writer pretty much admits it was plot convenience for them to escape.

(an extra extremely weakened Revan held a large group of meteors in the air while he's fighting a strike team and using other force abilites),

Revan wasn't holding them up. They were already falling as seen here and throughout the entire flashpoint.

No Caption Provided

They were being pulled down by tractor beams already. That's what the Foundry does

The Imperial Reclamation Service believes the Foundry now uses a network of tractor beams to capture and break apart nearby asteroids,

The Old Republic Codex

All Revan did was accelerate their fall. Vader has casually done similar things.

No Caption Provided

Such as ripping down massive mining equipment with enough force to obliterate it and create an explosion. While being shot at.

So no. That's not enough.

when you told me Vader is greater than some dudes but didn't address how Revan fought those strikes teams all at once, etc.

Because most of those "dudes" are a match for the strike teams on their own.

Let me remind you Vader LOST to Starkiller.

Only because he wanted to take Starkiller alive.

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

Taken from The Force Unleashed II novelization

Vader is too powerful for him and can just ragdoll him

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Starkiller was never even really a threat to him.

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

The Force Unleashed II Novelization

Starkiller only won by giving up and then cheapshotting Vader. And even then Vader was faking, as he had a clone lying in wake and was able to rise without issue immediately afterward.

Loading Video...

Next.

You didn't even address TK

Yes I did.

or the fact that Revan was extremely weakened and fought all of those people at the same time.

And? All we have to say for this "prime Revan" is speculation SOR is his shown prime.

I bet Vader couldn't take Nox, Wrath, Barsen'Thor, and HoT at full health.

Neither could Revan

And all of the PIS stuff about letting Ezra and Kanan escape? Revan had it 3 times in a row: He lost to Vitiate so TOR happens, and then he lost on the Foundry and on Yavin the game progresses to KOTFE. So PIS doesn't apply.

Except Ezra and Kanan are substantially weaker than Vader. That's why it's PIS. Revan lost because he was genuinely outmatched.

An explosion makes him lose focus.

*sigh*. Plot.

Revan is able to simultaneously wield two lightsabers via TK,

So could Starkiller. Didn't do him much good once he was ragdolled.

control Force Aberrations,

And?

and crush pillars via TK,

Obi-Wan Kenobi can do that.

all while fighting a huge strike team--while he's extremely weakened.

Which isn't really above Vader.

The fact of the matter is that Vader can't create earthquakes, storms, and high winds. An extremely weakened Revan can.

Which has more to do with preference rather than power.

I'm talking about him absorbing the energies of the Machine Core because his ritual was interrupted by the strike team.

Never happened. The Machine Core itself could wipe out the planet. Revan could only ever handle enough energy to wipe out a kilometer. A mere fraction of it's power.

Let me ask you this: if Darth Nox/Emperor's Wrath/Barsen'Thor/HoT, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, and Lana Beniko all combined their force power into one TK blast, and Vader also made a TK blast, who's blast would be more powerful? (This is a rhetorical question. If you answer it incorrectly, then you're just being irrational). Oh yes and then he would have to tank the Machine Core, which he can't.

At max power? Yeah Vader probably could stalemate that blast. Also given Vader consistently tanking massive factory sized explosions, disintegration caliber force lightning and the point blank detonations of Sith superweapons at ground zero. Yes he could do that.

I could mention teleportation. Vader is slow compared to most high level Sith. If Vader somehow magically gets a chance to harm Revan, he'll just teleport away or form one of his nigh indestructible force bubbles.

Vader has precog. Teleportation wouldn't do him much good. Bubble is a telekinetic ability. Vader has superior TK, so he could penetrate it. Also it's unclear if teleportation is even canon for Revan as it has only ever appeared in gameplay and not cutscenes.

I've literally proven he is. I countered all of your points. You're just being stubborn.

No I'm not.

Also if I may make a request. Please insert sources next time. I'm sick of having to look them up for you and correct you on them.

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#159 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Glad you can't speak for yourself and have to take quotes from your idol.

If you call completely breaking the force barriers of multiple Jedi and Sith struggling, sure.

A pre-prime Revan can collapse a building. Prime Vader tipping an AT-AT over doesn't compare.

Revan has fought entire armies too. His slaughter on Korriban was so terrible, the Sith couldn't recover from it until Bane's time. Massively pre-prime. Let me show you this as well:

Revan was capable of fighting and defeating dozens upon dozens of Dark Jedi for over an hour, then Bastila Shan, then the Star Forge's Infinite Army of battle droids, and then finally Darth Malak himself without slowing down or showing signs of exhaustion. He performed this on a Star Forge, an immensely powerful dark side nexus that would be benefiting his opponents and hindering his capabilities.

"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide

Now compare those with Vader.

They were falling, but when he prepared to use one, he would stop it and hold it for a few seconds before dropping: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4595313

You're acting like him not trying against Starkiller is some great feat. Starkiller's saber feats are almost non-existent, and his force powers were buffed to high hell. And he still lost anyway. If you get cheap-shotted, then obviously you don't have enough precognition. Starkiller is like Bane tier.

You just avoided my point about a weakened Revan facing those strike teams twice. How about you have Vader absorb the Machine Core's power, and then if he somehow lives, fight those two strike teams. He doesn't have the agility or endurance.

When was Revan at FULL HEALTH against Nox/Wrath/HoT/Barsen'Thor? Oh right. Never.

He was "outmatched" because he was drugged and tortured for 3 years, then tortured by Vitiate + the Dread Masters for 300 years, then DIED, then came back to life and absorbed the power of the Machine Core.

I feel like everything bad about Vader is "plot" to you.

How is that not above Vader? Vader doesn't have that kind of force power, will power, and focus. Glad you conceded to this one.

Another concession. Still waiting on Vader creating storms.

1. That "fraction" is more than a petty explosion and 2. Yes he could. That was the point of the ritual. He said it himself, he needed all life on the planet to die for Vitiate's return. In fact, the reason the Machine Core HAD that much power in the first place is because of Revan's ritual. No average Sith Lord can just "activate" it.

Literally that's just a stupid statement. Flat out stupid. You're highly underestimating the protags' power and the strength of numbers. Remember when Anakin (better than Vader) stalemated Obi-Wan's TK? Yeah.

From what you've shown me, Vader's precog is literally worse than an average Jedi. Revan's force bubbles are nigh invulnerable, as shown by this and this: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4760909 https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4431281/

And if you want to talk about "canon" feats, you officially can no longer debate using SoR Revan, because he is a non-existent character. Glad you are giving up.

You're being more stubborn than both me and Nova. You keep avoiding my points and just "counter" something else that I don't even mention. There's no point. And all of my sources come from Ant's respect.

No Caption Provided

I'm just waiting for you to say:

"A man can only admit when he was wrong, and ask forgiveness."

It'll make everyone's lives easier.

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#160 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365:

So the asteroid feat people keep using to say revan isn't actually a feat?

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#161 Posted by TheVivas (19446 posts) - - Show Bio

God, this thread is terrible.

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#162 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: It is a feat. Unless you're like Sentinel here and treat game characters as non-canon. Look: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111435/4710630-2759426782-45953.gif

See how Revan stops them when they turn yellow? He holds up groups of them at a time.

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#163 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: It is a feat. Unless you're like Sentinel here and treat game characters as non-canon. Look: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111435/4710630-2759426782-45953.gif

See how Revan stops them when they turn yellow? He holds up groups of them at a time.

Yea, even Starkiller(who a pre prime Vader has outright ragdolled) has done more impressive stuff than that like lifting and throwing at-at dwarfing towers.

a, even more, pre prime, near dead vader brought down an entire cathedral

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#164 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Starkiller was buffed to high hell.

Vader can "nearly" collapse buildings. A pre-prime Revan can. And you're acting like this is Revan's best TK feat. Not even close. Regardless, this is Foundry Revan, one of the weakest versions of Revan there is. He was tortured by Vitiate and the Dread Masters for literally 300 years straight. He was INSANELY weak when he performed this feat.

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#165 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Vader was pre prime and nearly dead.

And as for this ability of revan's to collapse a building:

"And, if the situation was right the might be able to collapse a building."

―Drew Karpyshyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan Author)

For one thing, its not definitive with revan possibly being able to do it.

Additionally, the statement indicates that revan might be able to collapse the building...

under the right circumstances.

In other words all you've got, is an author's opinion that revan might, circumstantially, be able to collapse a building. A building who's size we have no idea off.

The vast vast majority of buildings are vastly smaller than the cathedral vader collapsed, so there's aboslutely no reason to assume that collapsing this building would be an even remotely comparable showing to vader's.

When it comes to clear, non-hypothetical showings, a pre prime vader's are better. Starkiller's are better.

Nothing you've presented so far remotely indicates Revan to be on par with, or even comparable to vader

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#166 Edited by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

Holding those meteors up wasn't the impressive part, it was the speed in which it was accelerated. The energy required to pull them at that speed, is far higher than tking down a cathedral.

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#167 Posted by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 probably.

Also, how did this turn into a debate on Revan vs Vader? lol

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#168 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@freesid_stf123: Idk something to do with, Dooku beating Revan but losing to vader.

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#169 Posted by freesid_stf123 (537 posts) - - Show Bio
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#170 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:.

A pre-prime Revan can collapse a building.

he might be able to in the right situation

"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building."

Drew Karpyshyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan Author)

A 20 years pre-prime Vader can collapse a cathedral

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

and the entire labyrinth below it while injured.

No Caption Provided

And has performed this type of feat more than once

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Revan was capable of fighting and defeating dozens upon dozens of Dark Jedi for over an hour, then Bastila Shan, then the Star Forge's Infinite Army of battle droids, and then finally Darth Malak himself without slowing down or showing signs of exhaustion. He performed this on a Star Forge, an immensely powerful dark side nexus that would be benefiting his opponents and hindering his capabilities.

"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide

The likes of Mace Windu and Count Dooku are canonically superior to a Revan more powerful than that one. And Vader is well on their level by both feats and accolades.

They were falling, but when he prepared to use one, he would stop it and hold it for a few seconds before dropping: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4595313

That's just them warping into the game engine. Even then the fact they were falling slowly indicates that the tractor beams were slowing them down. So it's aided nonetheless.

You're acting like him not trying against Starkiller is some great feat. Starkiller's saber feats are almost non-existent, and his force powers were buffed to high hell. And he still lost anyway. If you get cheap-shotted, then obviously you don't have enough precognition. Starkiller is like Bane tier.

Because it is. Starkiller is enormously powerful yet Vader dominated him pre-prime. Vader let his guard down due to Starkiller surrendering.

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances. "

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread our across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

TFU II Novelization

And as stated, he would have recovered but he waited to see if the clone would turn. Remember as presented above. The other clone was waiting. It was all a test.

You just avoided my point about a weakened Revan facing those strike teams twice. How about you have Vader absorb the Machine Core's power, and then if he somehow lives, fight those two strike teams. He doesn't have the agility or endurance.

No I didn't. Vader has the durability, willpower and raw power to pull that off.

When was Revan at FULL HEALTH against Nox/Wrath/HoT/Barsen'Thor? Oh right. Never.

The why do you keep bringing it up? This "Prime Revan" of yours is nothing more than speculation. SOR is his as powerful as he was ever observed.

He was "outmatched" because he was drugged and tortured for 3 years, then tortured by Vitiate + the Dread Masters for 300 years, then DIED, then came back to life and absorbed the power of the Machine Core.

And?

I feel like everything bad about Vader is "plot" to you.

No just the one instance where the writer of the series admitted it.

Another concession. Still waiting on Vader creating storms.

Not even close. Vader is factually more powerful than people who can create storms. Simply because he does not use the same technique does not invalidate his confirmed superiority.

1. That "fraction" is more than a petty explosion and 2. Yes he could. That was the point of the ritual. He said it himself, he needed all life on the planet to die for Vitiate's return. In fact, the reason the Machine Core HAD that much power in the first place is because of Revan's ritual. No average Sith Lord can just "activate" it.

1. I never said it was petty

2. Got a statement for that?

Literally that's just a stupid statement. Flat out stupid. You're highly underestimating the protags' power and the strength of numbers. Remember when Anakin (better than Vader) stalemated Obi-Wan's TK? Yeah.

I'm aware of the protags power, you do realize Anakin and Obi-Wan surpass them? Also that was Mustafar Anakin. Whom Vader is more powerful than also.

From what you've shown me, Vader's precog is literally worse than an average Jedi. Revan's force bubbles are nigh invulnerable, as shown by this and this: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4760909 https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4431281/

Only in the one instance you keep lowballing him from. Also lol at those gifs showing that his bubble is invulnerable. Dooku (inferior to Vader) is more than capable of that. As he has been shown to easily create energy fields that are lightsaber resistant.

And if you want to talk about "canon" feats, you officially can no longer debate using SoR Revan, because he is a non-existent character. Glad you are giving up.

Pretty sure if Revan doesn't exist I win. Also I never said he didn't exist. I merely quoted the canon policy that game mechanics are not canon.

You're being more stubborn than both me and Nova.

Nova is an incredibly polite debater and I freely admit I don't have the patience to endure the crap you put him through.

You keep avoiding my points and just "counter" something else that I don't even mention. There's no point. And all of my sources come from Ant's respect.

I'm just waiting for you to say:

"A man can only admit when he was wrong, and ask forgiveness."

It'll make everyone's lives easier.

Ditto. If you actually respond properly I might give this one more reply.

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#171 Edited by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: When on earth was Revan stated to be weakened? He was stated several times to possess all of his former power, but lacked all of the wisdom and restraint of spirit Revan. That's a mental split, and isn't enough to claim that SOR Revan was weakened.

Moreover, when was any version of Revan considered a threat to Vitiate? When Vitiate returned at the end of SOR, he laughed at SOR Revan. As in, he didn't even take SOR Revan seriously.

The amp that the Outlander received is questionable. Valkorian played it off as 'a final token of my favour' but then never left, and later stated 'your strength grew, your vulnerabilities festered'. What we saw in KOTET is a more powerful Outlander who had undergone more substantial training to grow. Trying to claim that Revan could easily beat the Outlander because of his feat of pushing back the Imperial characters pre KOTFE training is like trying to claim that someone like ROTJ Luke could be ragdolled by Vader because of his feat of practically ragdolling ROTE Luke. Also, Valkorian was frightened by Vaylin's full potential and imprisoned her mind so she was operating at a fraction of her full potential throughout KOTFE and most of KOTET. How on earth does Revan defeat her with ease when he couldn't even put down non Force-sensitives like Shae Viszla, Jakarro and Theron Shan? Vaylin ragdolled Lana (while weakened) and nearly killed her with TK alone, destroyed a facility from space without a visual connection, ripped apart a structure large enough to support an energy reactor capable of wiping out entire city blocks (while weakened) and was a huge enough threat that neither Marr or Satele Shan believed that they could defeat her.

Vaylin was proven to be weakened for most of her feats, and yet her feats while in this state are comparable if not superior to almost any of Revan's Revan’s.

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#172 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

Holding those meteors up wasn't the impressive part, it was the speed in which it was accelerated. The energy required to pull them at that speed, is far higher than tking down a cathedral.

No, no it isn't

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#173 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Do you even know what physics is? I could link you to several Calculations of the feat.

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#174 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16514 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you even know what physics is? I could link you to several Calculations of the feat.

Do you know what a fictional universe is? Cause it doesn't follow physics to the letter, lol

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#175 Edited by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

Well since they are not floating, and "almost" every indication of the SW universe applies to real world physics. It's logically to assume that physics can be applied. lel Otherwise planets wouldn't function/nothing in inverse would work without, similar parity.

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#176 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339

Just in case you needed to know, the lightning Sidious shot on Vader is more powerful than the one he used on Luke, canonically( aside from the fact that it should be common sense):

And then, at last, Vader acts. Grabbing the Emperor with what is left of his arms, he lifts his master high in the air and lumbers towards the reactor shaft.

And now, with fear added to his anger and hatred, the Emperor turns a yet more powerful lightning attack on Vader. Countless blue bolts seethe across the black mask, burning into both metal and flesh. But though he must be feeling more pain than even Luke did, Vader staggers on.

....

He might still have used his powers to save himself, but his hate is now so strong his only thought is to cause Vader more pain. So the lightning continues to flicker and flash even after the body is out of sight.

Credit: ROTJ-Beware the Power of the Dark Side

I don't see( and there is no reason) why he wouldn't use a significant portion of his power in this attack. Of all the feats and powerscaling Vader possesses, this is easily his most impressive.

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#177 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

Geez, you guys just will not stop. Give me a couple of hours to respond.

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#178 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16514 posts) - - Show Bio

@slayedigneel: I mean, gravity exists. But gravity is one insanely small part of physics so just because planets have gravity doesn't mean every other law applies in the SW verse, lol.

In fact, a lot of the authors noted that the universe doesn't completely follow the laws of physics, and that every planet has their own specific gravity(some larger than average, others smaller than average).

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#179 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: What you're describing is essentially a rage amp. I am no longer convinced.

And you're forgetting the version that quote applies to is Redeemed Revan. SoR Revan is way better than Redeemed Revan. By a lot. So the fact of the matter is if Redeemed Revan can collapse a building under certain circumstances, Revan the Returned could do it any time he wanted to, with little strain. You're also treating the author's opinion like it's not worth anything, which is pathetic.

Nothing you've said elevates Starkiller and Vader above Revan. Literally nothing. Unless you're referring to Sentinel here, so you're telling me you're one of the people who can't debate for themselves. If that's the case, I don't want to debate with you anymore.

You're literally one of the only people in the world who thinks Revan isn't on par with Vader. You actually need to back up that irrational claim for anyone to somewhat believe it.

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#181 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Kbro just convinced me it was a rage amp, so I no longer think it's that great. And you're forgetting that's a massively pre-prime Revan. SoR Revan could do it with little strain.

You just completely avoided talking about why Vader's feat of killing armies is better. Again, a concession. And where does it say Dooku and Mace are canonically greater than any version of Revan?

You just completely ignored the fact that he stopped them mid-air, and then accelerated them, in large groups. This is right after he was tortured for 300 freaking years.

Stop overrating Starkiller. His character was buffed (as stated by the creators). He's Bane tier at best, someone Revan would ragdoll. I'm sure pretty soon you're going to bring out the star destroyer feat?

Oh, and you're still making Vader's precog look like trash. At this point, Revan could just teleport behind Vader and stab him in the back.

Vader cannot survive an attack from the Machine Core first of all, so he's already out. And I'm willing to see your argument as to how Vader would beat those strike teams.

You literally said full-health Vader couldn't handle Nox/Wrath/HoT/Barsen'Thor. A weakened Revan could. Case closed.

And....that means Revan has just as much PIS as Vader. He was never "outmatched." I haven't even mentioned how Revan Reborn (massively pre-Prime) had a 50/50 chance at beating Vitiate. That implies Revan is just below, if not equal to, Vitiate. Someone who would destroy Vader.

There's a reason Sidious, Plagueis, and Valkorion are the 3 most powerful Sith. Their ability to alter environments helps confirm this power. This is the same case for Revan.

1. You're acting like--if that's how much power he had--it wasn't a lot of power.

2. Revan knew of a ritual that activates a massive device capable of extinguishing all life on Yavin IV.

"[A ritual] capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor's resurrection."

―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

You actually think Obi-Wan's force power is above the combined power of Nox, Barsen'Thor, Wrath, HoT, Beniko, Marr, and Satele? You're literally hopeless.

Show me Dooku's bubble and then we'll compare. Did you see how many people were attacking Revan's bubble in the first gif? That's insanely powerful.

No, if Revan doesn't exist to you, then you can't debate him. And you can't compare him with Vader because his only "canon" "combat" feat is pushing people over. So good for you, you can't debate in this thread anymore. Please stop spewing nonsense and go argue with someone else.

You do really love Nova. That is why I am now giving you a title. To show how much you adore Nova and his ideals. You can wear the title with pride, or you can hide it, up to you.

GreySentinel365, it is my greatest honor and privilege to award you with this rank. You are now officially--the first ever--NOVANITE!!!!!

Congratulations. If I had a medal, I would give you one. Go, go into the world and spread the good word of ShootingNova.

Please don't reply again. I'd appreciate it.

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#182 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: Well, for one, he died. So yeah, that's obviously going to affect him poorly. Then he absorbed the power of the Machine Core, a device capable of destroying all life on Yavin. Almost any other character in the Star Wars universe cannot do this.

When was Revan a threat to Vitiate? Oh, I don't know. Maybe when a pre-prime Revan--after being drugged and tortured for 3 years straight--had a 50/50 chance of defeating Vitiate. That right there puts Revan just below, if not equal to, Vitiate.

You actually just said Vaylin's feats are superior to Revan. Even after a weakened Revan ragdolled essentially 6-8 Outlanders, plus 3 more force wielders and 3 legendary non-force wielders. And Revan didn't kill them because of PIS. If he did, there would be no KOTFE, so there would be no Vaylin.

Out of the 3 people trying to debate with me right now, you're argument makes me cringe the most. But I do have an idea for you. Make a SoR Revan vs Vaylin thread, and see what happens.

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#183 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

You 3 are relentless, yet you already lost the argument. I haven't even gone into Force Storm or the duration of Vader's fight with Luke in ESB. Please just stop responding, I'm a busy man.

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#184 Edited by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: But if you were to take away the majority of physics like Velocity/acceleration/Mass/density/force Ships would go nowhere, people wouldn't be able to move. The universe would cease to function, nothing evolve or be. I'm sorry but to have a universe like ours, these things must be consistent. And even if the force did those things, the only way we can get an accurate measurement of a feat is by comparing it to our physics. Otherwise nothing would be logical, like you could say, "Vaders feat of lifting a person is stronger than Galen marek Bringing down a Star destroyer, and by your logic. You can't use Physics(our very understanding of Nature) to prove otherwise.

Or

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....

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#185 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16514 posts) - - Show Bio

@slayedigneel: Nice strawman. The point being: despite the similarities between our universe and the SW verse, the physics don't operate the same. A lot of the sh!t that would be impossible in our universe happens in their, hence fan-calcs are usually gonna fall flat.

Unless you genuinely believe the Star Wars Galaxy is in our own universe(I don't have to tell you how retarded that is, right?), I have no idea why you mention that quote.

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#186 Posted by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

The quotes you brought only showed that yoda wasn't holding back ( he was aiming at Dooku's head) and Dooku , even while having serious trouble, was holding his own . Aotc novel says also that yoda parried Dooku's lighting not with ease.

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#187 Posted by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperordmb: there are a lot of quotes saying the opposite

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#188 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

Hell, even when fictions are actually set in our own universe, in many cases they don't follow the laws of physics at all.

@slayedigneel

It's silly to state that we must use real world physics because without physics the universe wouldn't work. That's a fallacy.

The writers need not aknowledge physics because they can make things 'just work' without it. Even if they do include basic principles, there's no garuntee the effect will be the same as in the real world as action - effect/consequence is entirely at the authors whim.

It's the same reason superman or kizaru punching someone at full speed doesn't annhihalate the city around him.

Why spaceships can travel in hyperspace (which completely defies physics).

Why something mystical like the force can exist and alter events in the universe.

Why the starkiller can absorb a star and blow up a far away system (which makes no sense).

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#189 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: Nice strawman. The point being: despite the similarities between our universe and the SW verse, the physics don't operate the same. A lot of the sh!t that would be impossible in our universe happens in their, hence fan-calcs are usually gonna fall flat.

That comes down to the force, obviously but any feats you can interpret fall under our understanding of physics. Otherwise you couldn't grasp of the magnitude of the feat. TK is with our understanding of physics, since it relies on energy. stuff that that we can't describe is called hax. Like drain, but we do understand the amount of energy it takes incinerate someone. Dropping a building requires less energy than accelerating the speed of an asteroid, to the point where it is literally pulverised. Saying physics don't operate the same, cannot apply to something that is provable via our physics. such as being disintegrated, or lifting a rock.

It was a joke.

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#190 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@slayedigneel:

Well if you're saying bigger + faster = higher magnitude, or that 'gravity is a thing' then yeah that seems obvious. Basic stuff like that applies.

But fan calcs that use real world physics to figure out the exact effects of something often fall flat because the answer probably won't line up with what the author was intending.

This can often be because, (suprise-suprise) the author/director doesn't work it out (via real world physics) before putting it in the story and likely doesn't care too much.

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#191 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: If it's something that does not add up then I agree. But most calcs I subscribe to generally, do make sense in the context.

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#192 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Hold on, what are you responding to? I've been debating in this thread so long, I don't know who's talking about what.

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#193 Posted by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio
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#194 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: But he was holding back. He was saying in his head how Dooku still has much too learn, and was still calling him his apprentice.

I could say Darth Maul was holding his own against Darth Sidious.

He absorbed the lightning with ease. So much so that Dooku was forced to use his lightsaber to avoid a force confrontation.

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#195 Edited by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: These are illogical illations . Lol he was aiming at Dooku 's head with a LightSaber , and are you saying that he was holding back ? If yoda's strike hit Dooku , it would have killed him . This isn't holding back . Sidius was clearly toying with maul and savage , and it is demonstrated by the fact he took them with ease, putting the word end to the fight when he wanted .

The aotc novelisation says CLEARLY that yoda parried Dooku's lighting FAR FROM EASILY

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#196 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Not necessarily holding back, but he wasn't trying his hardest is what I'm saying. You're treating him like he was rage amped. And Yoda was about the end the fight, as seen by the quote I posted earlier, so Dooku had to pull down the pillar on Anakin + Obi-Wan to escape.

Did I say parry? I don't think I did. I said absorb.

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#197 Edited by Richard96 (5739 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: yoda was about the end of the fight ? Reasons? He wasn't trying his hardest but he was trying to hit Dooku's head with a saber. Interesting. This is from aotc novel:

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, BUT FAR FROM EASILY.

There are also quotes saying neither Dooku or yoda were prevailing in the force duel before the saber contest

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#198 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Vader is highly implied to have onenes there iirc.

Regardless Vader doesn't need that. His barrier tanking the malachite explosion is suffeciebt

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#199 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Honestly, I'd say tanking Sidious' full power lightning is better than tanking an explosion.

Grievous tanked an explosion that threatened to destroy an entire undercity and came out unscathed, yet I believe Sidious could fry him like a fish given the chance.

Though honestly they are different scenarios.

In this case it's also merit to his barrier/power as well as durability.

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#200 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: You've seen the movie correct? He was literally about to end the fight.

Also:

"Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable."

Source: Star Wars: Episode II: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization

As you can see, it says To stop Dooku was all that was necessary. Which means Yoda wasn't trying his hardest. At all.

Their force "duel" wasn't a duel. It was literally just Yoda absorbing Dooku's attacks. Imagine if Yoda was actually trying and used his offensive force powers against Dooku. Dooku would have been obliterated.