Avatar image for necromancer76
#101 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@frankenmidget: The full force of his canon character. The full power of Legends Sidious is very different compared to what we've seen him do canonically. Legends Sidious could easily disintegrate Vader if he wanted to.

Either that or Sidious is a lot weaker than I originally thought...

Avatar image for emperor339
#102 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Where has Sidious increased his power from 0-100? Not DE mind you.

Why not DE? Sure he's more powerful, but I don't see why he'd suddenly have the ability to unleash his full power in an instant where he previously could not.

Regardless. Here there's the time he killed Mace with his lightning after playing possum, there's the time he reduced sithspawn to ashes and prophets of the darkside to bones pretty quickly, in DE he rips into Luke's internal organs instantly.

At other times though it's true that sometimes he unleashes his lightning and then 'draws deeply on the darkside' to increase the power further, but he has gone straight for the kill before and I don't see why he wouldn't do so against Vader.

And regarding lightning...

Malgus unleashed lighting instantly against Aryn Leneer more powerful than he had ever unleashed (though he was amped). He unleashed lighting on Adrass that immediatly disabled him.

And I don't think I need to prove to you that Revan can unleash his full power in an instant.

And going all out from the gate isn't exclusive to them. If Sidious' lessers can use the full power of force lightning without needing to ramp it up slowly, Sidious certainly can.

And whilst it's true that it's common to see people fire lighting and then 'channel more power' or 'draw more deeply on the dark side', that is normally a difference of seconds, of which Sidious had 8.

And this is ramping up from his torturing lighting (which has been known to rip apart the internal organs of even Maul who himself can tank lightning pretty well) to his full power which can overwhelm even Yoda.

And this is Vader not defending himself. The difference is pretty immense.
I mean just look at Yoda having to exert effort to absorb Dooku's lightning and AOTC Kenobi grounding it on his saber rather easily and you can see what a fully prepared and armed Vader might be able to defend against.

And obviously I'm trying to prove Revan victor, I don't know why that's wrong...?

I'm not saying having an ulterior motive to debating is wrong. I'm just insinuating that your purposefully misconstrueing the scene for these purposes. At least that's how I feel on the matter.
If that's not true then I apologize, but it really seems like your trying to lowball Vader.

First you say Vader died to Sidious lighting that he was using purely to cause Luke pain.
Then I retaliate and you switch and say 'yeah maybe but he probably needs time to go full power'.

And what is the "correct" interpretation of the scene if mine is so "wrong?"

I dunno if I ever used the words 'correct' and 'wrong'. I wouldn't be so absolute over interpretations.

But to me, it doesn't make sense that Sidious would simply continue torturing Vader instead of trying to kill him.

But I suppose now it's on me proving that you don't need to charge up lightning to use it at full power.

And whether I concede to this or not, it won't help your argument. Revan is infinitely more durable than Vader.

What argument? What's this about durability?

Avatar image for deactivated-5a98875cd0f94
#103 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1- doesn't stomp, but comes close. Ulic IS good, but geez, he's going down against either of them. And Kun is not dispatching two foes considerably ahead of him in skill unless he can use his Sorcery (but starting distance would have to favor him.)

Avatar image for emperor339
#104 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

He was using "weak" lightning to torture Luke, not to kill him. Sidious was still "using" that lightning as Vader held him up and dropped him.

Shedding the bleack and soulless identity of Darth Vader, Anakin took the full force of his Dark Master's evil lightning upon himself-and hurled the Emperor to his death.

-- Dark Empire 1 Endnotes

Vader was at his weakest, yet he wasn't insta-killed by the lightning, and he was mortally wounded by Sidious' Dark Side burst.

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for emperor339
#105 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@frankenmidget: The full force of his canon character. The full power of Legends Sidious is very different compared to what we've seen him do canonically. Legends Sidious could easily disintegrate Vader if he wanted to.

Either that or Sidious is a lot weaker than I originally thought...

No Caption Provided

So it can't possibly be that Vader isn't weak to lighting. It MUST be that Sidious is weaker than we all think despite numerous showings of power beyond any other Sith Lord and accolades to back him up as the most powerful.

Also, I assumed this was a composite thread.

Besides, that quote is from Dark Empire. You can barely get more legends than that.

Avatar image for slayedigneel
#106 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

Force lightning, from Sidious is different than, the force lightning storm that Vitiate/Nyriss use.

If Sidious used that variant of Lightning, he probably could incinerate Vader.

Avatar image for emperor339
#107 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

We're kinda derailing the thread guys.

Shall I make a seperate thread so people can discuss this matter?

Avatar image for emperor339
#108 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@slayedigneel:

Are you talking about that kinda sorcery-esc lightning they use?

I've always been curious about the differences between them and normal lightning (much like electric judgement is a seperate version).

Gimme a rundown pls.

Avatar image for emperor339
#109 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@frankenmidget:

Yo, when you refer to dark side burst are you referring to that burst of dark side energy that was released after Sidious' death?

You got a quote 4 that?

Cus if that's true, that means Vader tanked his full-power lightning and wasn't mortally wounded by it...

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#110 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16483 posts) - - Show Bio

Force lightning, from Sidious is different than, the force lightning storm that Vitiate/Nyriss use.

If Sidious used that variant of Lightning, he probably could incinerate Vader.

There is no difference, and even if there is: Sidious' is still more powerful.

Avatar image for themuser
#111 Posted by TheMuser (1882 posts) - - Show Bio

Geez guys, could you keep it on topic for a minute more? I still haven't finished my Ulic Post @emperor339

Avatar image for necromancer76
#112 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: Should I respond to your posts or just stop because we're off topic?

Avatar image for emperor339
#113 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Nah, there's nothing we can really add at this point.

If people want to discuss this topic further someone should make a thread for it.

Avatar image for slayedigneel
#114 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:It's an Lightning attack which requires the user to Build up massive amounts of energy and release. I figure it's more like a compressed version the AOE force lightning storm.

Loading Video...

This is a good Example, watch from 1:40, to the end.

@wollfmyth209:Agreed on the Sidious part.

Avatar image for themuser
#115 Edited by TheMuser (1882 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard:

Talzin

Off nexus for talzin (Got any idea of how powerful she was off nexus?) and it was a dueling fight almost entirely IIRC. Sidious even notes when she possessed dooku's body that she posses none of his skill. Also lets not forget that she actually drove him back at the beginning of the fight. And her only use of force power that we see involved shooting lightning at him which he avoid.

Not exactly a insurmountable feat.

Car Vastor

Feats for Car Vastor that make him impressive? I do recall him from the novel, but I don't recall anything extraordinary.

and Sids himself.

I am, of course, working off the assumption we agree on the use of Vaapad and how it works and how it brought mace from a level at which he could not have held his own against, let alone contend with sidious to a level at which he did. Honestly thats more or less all I have to say about this unless we disagree about the above assumptions.

Matches General Grievous

Briefly, Grievous holding his own quite nicely. And what would you say his best feat is?

and Dooku in duelling

Again, briefly (More so) and if your going to hype this you should do it off of accolades not feats in my opinion. Although it is a fair point, just not the way I would make it (Personal preference aside).

In any case I find the comparison of Ulic to Dooku far more interesting due to some advantages Ulic has that makes it a closer fight.

beats multiple Jedi who were consumed by Vaapad which is a rather large amp.

Tell me the last time in the SW lore someone using Vaapad got a amp using the super conducting loop against a lightsider. Or are you referring to some type of rage amp?

Battles Sids in a fight that appeared as only a blur to Anakin,

Probably because in that moment he was on sidious's level which rather throws into doubt the notion that feat can be used as a normal way to scale mace considering earlier in the novel he stated that anakin may be the most powerful jedi......This among many reasons that Mace=sidious level (outside of vaapad amp) is a bit off the mark for me.

has a fighting style which amps himself off Dark Side enemies.

Which he got to work one time against the most powerful source of DS energy in millennia before promptly dying. (I honestly don't care to debate Valk V Sids ATM considering I am trying to get a lot on paper atm for this so screw it)

Can force push AT-TE's with ease,

No Caption Provided

Gona have to underline the part of this feat that says with ease tbh. He is in a protected position and has time to gather his energy and focus which he does in order to accomplish this feat. This is not to say Mace isn't vastly more powerful then shown here, he is. But this is a crap way to show his power.

damaged Greivous with the force who can tank blasts that compromise the crust of a planet.

Please tell me where when and how....Because I have never seen this feat and it sounds amazing.

Since you have been so kind as to list out some feats for mace, ill respond in kind. This is more a experiment for me to see how well some of these Ulic arguments I have been sitting on work so here we go.

Before his prime or even becoming a sith lord Ulic defended Warb Null, a dark jedi/Naddist cultist. Doing so on a extremely powerful Dark Side nexus that aided Warb Null immeasurably. In doing so the nexus would also have hindered the jedi Ulic.

The Naddists were aided immeasurably by the mystical up welling of dark-side power of Freedon Nadd still prevalent throughout Onderon.

--Star Wars insider 27

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

For those of you whom are unaware Warb Null was a dark side creature whom wears a set of armor that increases his power dramatically. After his defeat at the hands of Ulic Qul-Droma his armor was moved off world and was lost for Thousands of Year. It was eventually discovered by a exploation corps member telloti, along with a Jedi Master Ryelli. This Jedi Master had fought in the Geonosis arena, being of the 20-30 whom survived the battle out of two hundred Jedi whom went. Its worth noting that after the first hundred Jedi had fallen, the remaining Jedi (Along with Ryelli) "Fought brilliantly" in the battle in spite of the fact that they were losing.

Jar Jar Binks moved front and center, trembling a bit but keeping his tongue in his mouth, at least. "Excueeze me, yousa honorable Supreme Chancellor, sir," the Gungan began. "Maybe dissen Jedi stoppen the rebel army."

"Thank you, Jar Jar," Palpatine politely replied, and turned to Yoda. "Master Yoda, how many Jedi are available to go to Geonosis?"

"Throughout the galaxy, thousands of Jedi there are," the diminutive Jedi Master replied. "To send on a special mission, only two hundred are available."

"With all due respect to the Jedi Order, that doesn't sound like enough," Bail Organa said.

-Attack of the clones novel

But even with that, even with all of the remaining Jedi fighting brilliantly in the arena, the droids continued to press in, herding them all together in a hopeless position.
Attack of the clones novel.

Soon they were down to just over twenty, all herded together, and in the stadium all about them stood rank after rank of battle droid, weapons leveled.

Attack of the clones novel.

While it is a minor point I feel like it is worth noting that many of the remaining jedi in the arena were either noted council memebers, blademasters, as well as noted jedi such as anakin obi wan and luminara. While this doesn't not mean that Ryelli possessed the skills of any of the aforementioned. I do feel it does a good job of highlighting that the arena did separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to skill to at least some degree. Padme of course being a exception due to her body guard in the form of skywalker.

However, I will be entirely transparent with you and discuss how the jedi master was injured in the fight, losing fingers.

A droidika had done that on geonosis, blown the lightsaber from his grasp, he could have had the fingers replaced with cybernetics. But he refused, Once Ryelli had told him it was a reminder, but of what.

- Hammer

After this, due to the loss of his former apprentice as well as him being a archaeologist and the loss of some of his fingers he had be allowed by the council to do archaeological work for the next several years.

He was an archaeologist, and wanted to be as far from the war as possible, digging in the dirt and scrutinizing pottery shards.

- Hammer

To what degree the loss of his fingers would affect his ability to fight is unknown, however the text itself makes no mention of it being a hindrance to him. So it remains unclear.

Towards the end of the clone wars however Master Ryelli and Telloti went to the world Nicht Ka where he discovered the long lost armor of Warb Null.

Before I continue, it is worth knowing a bit about Telloti, who was a member of the exploration corps. When he was a youngling he fought in the apprentice trials and beaten most of his opponents, losing to a Wollwi Enan. unfortunately he was not chosen as a apprentice. Although I do consider this worth mentioning, he is still very clearly a very low tier combatant with a very limited skill set and extremely marginal experience.

We have several quotes describing how Telloti felt wearing the armor long lost armor of warb null.

"As soon as his fingertips touched [Warb Null’s lightsaber] it, a wave of cold air blew over him, through his clothes, his skin, through his very soul. He shivered."

- Hammer

"When Telloti opened his eyes again, the helmet was in his hands, poised over his head, its dark iron hood casting a shadow over his blinking eyes. Inside, secret glyphs glowed with orange light, waiting to brand his cheeks, imbue him with their power."

- Hammer

Master Ryelli stood in the door in his brown robes. His lightsaber hummed in his malformed hand. “Take that off, Telloti,” Ryelli urged, a tremor of something in his voice. Fear? It excited him to think a Jedi Master was afraid of him.

“It’s of the Sith. This place… it’s a tomb of some kind. That armor.. it’s infected with the dark side of the Force.”

The dark side? With this kind of power, he could be a hammer to crush the dark side. What did Ryelli know? He had no insight at all. Why shouldn’t he take this armor for himself? It had power in it. Real power. He could feel the Force like never before. With it, he could be a warrior. He could join the war, cut his way through legions of battle droids and take the Count of Serenno’s head, be the hero the Republic needed.

- Hammer

How obviously much of that last quote is hypebole on the part of the wearer, however, this armor had a massive effect on the wear, it took a young man with little knowledge/power in the force, and with extremely limited skills in dueling, to a point where he could contend with a experienced and highly capable jedi master.

The armor was like a web of conduits. It drew the Force into him. Telloti felt it surging through his blood vessels, contracting muscles, swinging his arms up to defend the downward stroke of Ryelli’s lightsaber almost before Telloti could even think it. He was fast. So fast. And strong. He drove Ryelli back with shuddering blows. the emerald lightsabers flashed and buzzed as they clashed and were batted aside. inadvertently hewing chucks of glowing stone from the walls.

Telloti grinned ecstatically behind his grim metal face. His heart thundered.

Ryelli seemed so small now. Was he himself larger? He felt immense. Ryelli’s blade skimmed his shoulder, sending sparks cascading into the air. He laughed. He hadn’t even felt it. He forced Ryelli out into the corridor, and there locked blades with the Jedi Master. Master. What right did he have to that title? This squinting bookworm? This ditch digger? He looked for greatness in small, broken things, and failed to recognize it when it towered over him.

- Hammer

Let us not downplay this achievement, this is a youngling level force user (Even if he is significantly above average for being on that level) pushing back a experienced and highly capable Jedi master moments after putting on unknown armor. A moment before this Jedi master could have likely have one shot him. Now he is being forced backwards by him. This is a incredible rate of improvement.

However, the Jedi master does begin to fight back and force Telloti down, the text even notes the Jedi master as ultimately being superior to the Telloti.

The blades squealed and sizzled. Something strange happened. Ryelli forced him back. The Jedi Master with the mangled hand was winning. His expression grew serene. Why was he so calm? It was infuriating, like the face of that girl Enan during the Trials all those years ago, when she’d made a fool of him. Ryelli’s blade angled ever closer, forcing the great two-handed lightsaber of Warb Null down. Telloti’s left knee buckled and clanged against the stone floor.

The archaeologist was stronger. How could that be?

- Hammer

Fortunately for Telloti the armor was also imbued with all the memorizes of Freedon Nadd and King Adaas. Using this knowledge as well as the unique abilities of his light saber, he swiftly kills the jedi master.

Stronger... perhaps, but not smarter.

Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.

His bare thumb felt along the length of the two-handed hilt to a small toggle, and as Ryelli forced his superior position, bearing down with all his strength,

Telloti triggered it and sidestepped.

The extra-long green blade of the ancient lightsaber retracted into the hilt. In the same instant, the butt sprang open like the maw of a sarlacc, revealing a hidden, secondary emitter. A blade of red energy erupted from it, the ingenious mechanism within realigning and refocusing the power in a nanosecond.

Without the resistance of the green blade,

Ryelli stumbled forward, dangerously off balance. Telloti shifted his grip and flipped the new red blade over, slicing neatly through the nape of Ryelli's neck. The Jedi Master tumbled to the floor.

Telloti straightened, listening to the sound of his own breathing, feeling his heart pounding deep behind the black shell of his breastplate.

- Hammer

This shows one of the advantages of the armor which I will expound upon later.

In any case this fight clearly shows that a even a youngling level force user can be brought up to the level of a capable jedi master merely by wearing the armor of Warb Null. (Although not his equal in shear skill)

Of course, This is only the beginning. Here I will describe the plethora of reasons why Warb Null was vastly superior to Telloti while wearing the armor.

The first being that the armor Telloti was wearing was incomplete.

There was a crooked molten scar across the neck, and the right arm was missing entirely from the elbow down.

-Hammer

It was missing a good portion of the right arm of the armor. Due to this missing piece the armor had less Dark Side energy imbued material and therefore was less powerful then the completed set of armor Warb Null possessed.

The second being that, while Shas was aided in the creating of the Armor by a sith spirit, he himself clearly posses's some ability with alchemy, noting how he must balance his craftsmanship and the dark magic he is using in order to create the armor. Therefore he gains access to this quote by possessing a talent for dark side alchemy. This quote notes that the most powerful of the sith lords possess a talent for darkside alchemy, and although Shas was not a sith, this does speak to his ability in the force.

"The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith."

―The Dark Side Sourcebook

Third, the spirit imbued Warb Null with power, binding his life force to the armor and turning him into a creature of the darkside in a action that is stated to make him."Stronger"

No Caption Provided

Fourth (As noted above) the spirit trained Warb Null for a unknown period of time. during which Warb Null would have access to all the memorizes of King Adaas and Freedon Nadd, particularly. This would have included their combative experience and force knowledge presumably. Giving Warb Null a massive advantage when training presumably increasing his rate of improvement as well as his abilities in combat.

Stronger… perhaps, but not smarter. Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it, millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.

- Hammer

Add to this a darkside nexus that aided him immeasurably and hindered Ulic and I think you can see where I am coming from. At any rate i'm not done quite yet. Warb Nulled used a ability against Ulic described as a wall of DS energy that pushed against his will.

No Caption Provided

This ability was actually capable of effecting the jedi oss wilum to the degree that he was unable to even think while fighting Null along side Cay.

No Caption Provided

So...I considering all of the above I believe this feat to be a rather impressive display of combative prowess on the part of Ulic when seeing how he handled Null quite neatly.

I am honestly curious to see what you all think about this line of scaling. does it hold any water? If taken as presented here it rather indicates that Warb Null on nexus>Warb Null off nexus>>>Telloti~ Master Ryelli. However I leave this feat for you all to judge.

There is another line of scaling that can be used, however I believe this one is likely the more impressive of the two.

Now to address a few of the points @the_wspanialy Made.

and holding his own against Sylvar. In all honesty though, Ulic wasn't really contending with her,

That depends on your interpretation, He was certainly giving ground, however the fight was extended and he did successfully defend himself from her attacks.

all he could do was defending himself while Sylvar was constantly pushing him back. He wasn't trading blows with her, he didn't try to retaliate. He was simply defending himself and hoping for Sylvar getting a grip on herself.

Ah, I feel you may be misinterpreting the fight (See below for the full fight.)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

First, note that Sylvar is fighting to kill. She outright states that she wants to kill Ulic for what he did, so she is not holding back.

Sylvar, the ferocious Cathar Jedi, has gone into isolation herself, directing all her anger and energy toward thoughts of revenge aimed at Ulic.

- Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Redemption #4 Solicitation

Sylvar also arrives on Rhen Var seeking to kill Ulic for killing her mate.

- Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Redemption #5 Solicitation

Second, that Ulic does not want to fight Sylvar and is only fighting defensively. This is something that Sylvar notes in the fight, stating that if he wants to survive he must kill her, And she notes him as only fighting defensively.

You see the difference here? Sylvar is not considering that she has forced Ulic into a position where he Must fight defensively. She is claiming that Ulic is Choosing to fight defensively. According to her own statements Ulic could have gone on the offense against her, but he is holding back and only fighting defensively.

While the point I am about to make is outlandish consider if Ulic was also fighting to kill, could he have gained the upper hand against her? We honestly don't know. Probably, if not certainly not however and this is not my actual argument, merely a side note.

The Final and blatantly obvious point that makes this feat truly shine is that Ulic did not have access to the force when accomplishing this feat. That makes this feat not only one of pure technical skill (I.E. no physical augmentation invovled), but also a feat that is in the realm of the ludicrous considering the physical augmentation/reflexes sylvar was doubtless using and yet in spite of this Ulic defended himself capably.

Let us take a look at the capability of Sylvar, first she is stated to be a legendary jedi knight.

"The legendary Jedi knights, Cay, Nomi Sunrider, and Sylvar..."

―Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War Issue 4 (of 6)

Among her most impressive feats, Sylvar successfully slaughtered a group of massassi.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

It should be noted that the massassi groups, around the time of Kun and Ulic were dark lords of the sith would have been enough to take down a entire army by sheer force.

As a small tribe of cultured warriors, the intelligent Massassi thrived in the harsh jungles of Yavin 4. For a time they were content with their lives, but contentment led to restlessness. They longed for more. The uncontested rule and grand temples of Naga Sadow called to their warrior's vanity. A plan emerged and the tribe marched on Sadow's territory. But Sadow, having learned of their independent existence, had anticipated their aggression. His mutated brutes ambushed the would-be usurpers. The sheer magnitude of their blunt-force attack was enough to take down an army. Relying on their wit to improvise and strategize, the smarter Massassi not only protected themselves from the onslaught, but advanced on their goal. For days, the tribe stormed the temples their devolved cousins built. But where was the Dark Lord they had built them for? They had expected Naga Sadow would face them; they'd even accepted the likelihood most or all would fall to their former master. Instead, wave after wave of mutated brutes attacked and succumbed until there were none left to fight and the tribe stood triumphant inside the greatest of Sadow's temples. It was then, at long last, that Naga Sadow appeared....

Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: The Massassi War

A subsect of the Sith bred by Dark Jedi as superb warriors and assassins more than 5,000 years before the Galacyic Civil War. During the Great Hyperspace War, Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow kepy a large contingent of Massassi warriors at his side. After his defeat, Sadow and his warriors fled to the far reaches of the galaxy, eventualty landing on Yavin 4. there Sadow mutated the Massassi with Sith magic, making them even more fearsome guardians of huge temples that he,and later Dark Lord Exar Kun, forced them to build.

Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

Obviously the comparison is likely not direct however you can see what I am getting at. the massassi are alchemically enhanced and highly capable.

This makes her feat a rather impressive showing. Beyond this Sylvar, 10 years later, slaughtered a hive of massive Kiltik, numbering in what appears to be the hundreds.

Here

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Although it is worth noting that Tott Doneeta was there, Sylvar herself said that she could kill them all, and we primarily, if not exclusively, see Sylvar doing the killing. After it is all over Tott states "Look what you have done." This heavily implies she did the majority, possibly even the vast majority of the killing.

Lets not forget that Ulic has been without the force for ten years, little is known as to what Ulic did during those ten years, However, he had almost no incentive to train and therefore it is highly likely that he degraded as a duelist to a significant extent (Ben kenobi being a example as to how that can occur, obviously referring to legends continuity.)

A ruined man, he wandered from world to world and hid from history, haunted by the ghosts of his own guilt. Ten years after the Sith War, he went to the frozen world of RhenVar to make his final home in the ruins of an abandoned fortress

Star Wars essential chronology.

The only training that he underwent was when he was sparing with Nomi's daughter Vima. However, this training did not go on for long, and he was facing a opponent so far beneath his level that it is difficult to imagine that he would benefit much from it.

It is also worth considering that Ulic due to lack of training, would not be in as good a physical condition as he was in his prime, with or without the force, also his reflexes would have degraded, once again, due to lack of training.

To Recap, we have a washed up 10 years out of prime physically/mentally/reflexively Man with no access to the force, against a legendary jedi with several impressive combat feats to her name while refusing to fight against her offensively on the principle of the thing.....And he holds his own with the worst thing that happens to him is being forced to give ground.

One more topic @the_wspanialy brought up that I should probably address.

Ulic's saber capabilities (and Kun's as a matter of fact) tend to be blown out of proportion. His best saber feats are most likely stalemating Kun who at the time was:

  • pre-prime
  • without his signature weapon
  • without many saber feats himself

Yes, Kun was pre prime, so was Ulic. As to his weapon, this is entirely fair, however we can use his showings before gaining his unique weapon. As to saber feats i'd consider defeating vodo (The premiere jedi duelist of the era) in several sparring match, being consider unparalleled in dueling even as a jedi and being a master level duelist.

Consumed by pride and ambition, Jedi student Exar Kun had a dark place in his heart that even his vaunted master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, could not reach. An excellent student and a master swordsman, Exar Kun was fascinated with the powers of the ancient Sith Lords.

- The Dark Side Sourcebook

As a young Jedi Knight, Exar Kun exhibited a strong connection to the Force. Through long practice he achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat.

- Gnost-Dural (Star Wars: The Old Republic - Timeline - The Exar Kun War)

As the Jedi Watchman of Dantooine, Master Baas spends much of his time on the planet and trains multiple apprentices at a time. His strongest apprentice, however, is a young pupil named Exar Kun. Kun's skill with a lightsaber is so great that he claimed victory over his master many times when they sparred together.- Jedi Academy Training Manual

However, I don't have a lot more to say about that particular fight, the vast majority of people are aware of the feat involved so I feel I have little to add here.

Moving on from this I would like to address Ulic's power, specifically his telekinetic defenses, which in my opinion are of quite a high level. Allow me to explain. However we must first know how powerful King Ommin is, because his ability is crucial when determining the power of Ommin's own TK defenses.

First, he obliterated a man pre prime.

In the end, the dinner, which would have been attended by the king and queen and various wealthy and politically strong individuals, had to be postponed. An infuriated King Ommin, though frail from the onset of a strange wasting disease, obliterated Kad in a wave of dark side energy as Novar watched in horror and fascination.

- Tales of the Jedi Companion

He was capable of effecting the emotions of people across a city of millions of people, again, before his prime.

"Good," the wispy image of Freedon Nadd hissed, the sibilance slicing through the undercity's maze of passageways.

King Ommin concentrated harder, bolstered by his mentor's praise. He could indeed reel the subtle ebbs and flows of the thronging masses in the city above, just as Nadd had said. As he continued to absorb the sensations of millions of beings engrossed in their daily activities, he began to notice tiny pinpricks of violence and hatred erupting randomly across the whole of Iziz. The dark outbursts called to him, drew his thoughts near, asked him for reinforcement.

Ommin felt a wave of power rush through him, felt the dark side intertwine with his own essence, and he knew then that he could command the Force to do as he willed. His hands gripped his throne's knobbed armrests tighter and he plunged deep into himself, losing his corporeal existence to embrace his metaphysical. The world about him quickly faded into a misty coalescence, giving him the slight discomforting feeling of being disconnected. But the emotion lingered for only a moment before he brushed it aside and focused on his current ambition.

He surged forward, delving deeper into himself, until he came to what he could only describe as a barrier. It seemed to ripple as if constructed of gossamer, and yet it possessed a strength of a tempered steel alloy. Ommin paused before the barricade, suddenly unsure.

“Weakling!” Nadd spat from the periphery of Ommin’s consciousness. “You will never reach your potential if you falter at the slightest obstacle. Beyond that wall lies your destiny. Beyond that wall lies the full power of the dark side. If you do not have the strength to reach it, then you do not deserve to become a Sith sorcerer!"

Ommin's anger flared. He'd come so far in so short a time, and yet Nadd expected more - more than any Onderonian could possibly offer. Had Ommin's ancestors penetrated the Force so quickly? And if they had, how could they have survived? The dark side offered much, but stole away more. Ommin did not know if he could give that much of himself.

Nadd's voice rose up once more. "Your doubt will be your downfall, Ommin." This time the words held an air of seduction, a warm, inviting tone that Ommin felt inexplicably drawn to. "You are ready. There is nothing to fear." The hiss of Nadd's voice seemed to swirl about his mind, settling somewhere to the side, both within and without of the confines of Ommin's consciousness.

"Strike now!" Nadd shouted suddenly. "Come to the dark side now, when it calls, or you will have failed. The dark side will forever shun you, the weak-minded fool who believed he had the right to wield its power!"

Ommin had sacrificed more than he had thought he ever would in his quest to make the dark side his ally. And now all of his efforts hung on a single moment, his one chance to prove his worthiness, as if all he had done before meant nothing. The dark side had torn away so much of his life. He could not let it slip from his grasp, laughing at how it had pillaged him and left him nothing more than a broken husk bereft of its life essence. He could not let that happen.

His anger became both his weapon and his armor as he bludgeoned the barrier before him. The wall rippled wildly under the attack, but did not give way. Ommin redoubled his effort, pulled the hatred of everything - including the dark side - from the depths of his soul, channelling it into his blows. Then suddenly the wall ripped open. Before Ommin could react, he was sucked through, carried by a force more powerful than he could have ever imagined. The dark side immediately flooded his being, becoming one with every cell in his body.

The image of the city above returned to him then, and he assaulted the pinpricks of evil scattered across cityscape with flares of dark side energy. The already vile incidents instantly grew worse, the individuals involved momentarily filled with a foreign hatred.

Ommin watched in both awe and horror. He realized then that he was invincible with the dark side at his back. Nothing could topple him. Nothing could harm or destroy him ever again, not even the dark side itself.

His normal vision returned, and he saw the ghostly form of Freedon Nadd hovering close by. Ommin felt stronger than he ever had, and he wanted to show his mentor what he had accomplished.

He pushed himself up from his ancient throne, and then collapsed under his own weight, his legs no longer able to support him.

Nadd made a deep, staccato sound that Ommin could only guess was laughter. "The dark side does not come without its price," the Sith spirit said. "You have power over the Force, but in exchange you have lost power over your own body."

Nadd had warned him of the dark side's initiation tithe a decade ago when his training had begun. He couldn't remember whether he had chosen to accept that price or whether he had purposely sealed it away in the recesses of his memory. It didn't matter now, anyway. He had finally reached his goal - the dark side belonged to him.

Unfortunately, he belonged to the dark side as well.

- Tales of the Jedi Companion

King Ommin drained the force barrier of a jedi, this force barrier was so powerful that it would have tanked a blast from a large laser cannon.

Kith eventually joined the task force sent to Onderon to fight the follower of Freedom Nadd and King Ommin. During the battle a dark side energy field drained away Kith's Force shield, allowing a wave-pulse from a nearby cannon to strike Kith a mortal blow.

- Tales of the Jedi Companion

No Caption Provided

Note that while he was doing so, he was also hindering Ulic and other jedi.

No Caption Provided

Not to mention that King ommin has one shot Arca from likely miles away.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Master Arca being one of the premiere jedi of the era.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

When 7 jedi confronted King Ommin, he used his power to throw back 6 out of the 7 jedi confronted here.

The seven apprentice Jedi sense Master Arca’s torment, and charge past the dark-side protectors and the Sith war droids…

- Tales of the Jedi Companion

Ommin throws a wave of dark side hatred at the Jedi, battering them back. Ulic, bathed in the light side, fights off the darkness and rushes forward, slashing with his lightsaber at the metal armature that holds Ommin erect.

- Tales of the Jedi Companion

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

It is worth noting that It Appears Ommin attacks the Jedi twice, once against the group, and then a second time, against Ulic alone. What is interesting here is Ulic appears to tank both the first, and the second blasts from king ommin. The reason why I claim that Ommin attack twice is that ommin attacked the first time when we see nomi getting put on her butt. the second time we see ommin the text states he is concentrating his hatred at the young jedi and he is clearly using the force with his hands in a different position. Then Ulic gets through the energies ommin just threw at him and cut him down.

Once more, Many of the jedi "Battered back" by ommin's attack have impressive power feats themselves.

First, lets discuss Tott. whom has a force barrier that, although broken by a turbo blaster shot, still protected him from the worst of the impact. Latter we learn that the reason it didn't hold was that the dark side was eating away at their life force, from other parts we learn king ommin, again, was responsible for the interference meaning that tott's barrier could have tanked the full blast if Ommin hadn't been draining them.

Ulic: Where is Tott Doneeta?

Tott: Here Ulic.

Ulic: Are you hurt.

Tott: No, I caught a shot from a turbo blaster, I used the force as a shield. But, it didn't hold.

Cay: I am having the same probably ulic, somehow, I keep losing my sense of the force.

Ulic: its the Dark Side, eating away at our life force.

Tales of the jedi Audio drama.

Rather impressive barrier feat.

Next we can discuss nomi sunrider.

she was strong with the force without any training.

No Caption Provided

She quickly became Thon's greatest apprentice surpassing oss wilum.

No Caption Provided

She uses tutuminous to block blaster bolts back at the naddists.

No Caption Provided

Ommin himself recognizes that Nomi's power is great.

Ommin: All of this because of one new jedi? Her power must be great.

Tales of the jedi audio drama

now there were a few other jedi there, I will breifly note that one of those jedi, dace, is capable of levitation, and all of the jedi sent (including nomi) were hand picked for this mission. Also worth mentioning nomi was well trained at this point.

His ship was destroyed when it impacted a rocky spire, but Dace managed to eject from the explosion, using the Force to levitate away from it.

Star Wars Encoylopedia

Republic military shipsconverged on the Onderon system, while another team of Jedi were handpicked anddispatched from the library world, Ossus. The group included now-confident and well-trained Nomi Sunrider. Under fire, the Jedi reinforcements encountered the siege of Izizand battled through to join Ulic and his companions. Together and strong, the JediKnights descended into the lower levels of the city to find and rescue Master Arca.

The Essential chronology

In short, Ulic ability to resist both Ommin's crowd control attack and his specific targeting of Ulic himself is a highly impressive feat, Particularly when we remember the power of the DS nexus at play which would have hindered Ulic (Although the same applies for the other jedi obviously)

Now let us discuss another line of scaling regarding Ulic's power and force defenses specifically.

"Ulic was once our greatest Jedi Knight. Now he is our greatest shame."

–Sylvar

- Tales of the Jedi: Redemption

Sylvar claims that, while a jedi, Ulic was the greatest jedi knight. This is interesting because Sylvar fought alongside tott doneeta, a jedi knight whom has used the force to block fire from a basilisk war droid.

No Caption Provided

The shots from these same war droid has destroyed parts of capital ships.

No Caption Provided

its worth noting that Ulic actually accomplished this feat in his prime without a hand gesture.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So, with regards Ulic's barriers, they appear to be top notch, and should be far above basilisk war droid level which damage capital ships.

Finally Lets discuss the power scale for Ulic.

Many of the feats (In fact, nearly every feat I have shown you for Ulic bar the ones where he doesn't have access to the force.) were done on onderon, where the DS energy aided them to a immeasurable degree and would have seriously hindered Ulic and the other jedi fighting there.

The Naddists were aided immeasurably by the mystical up welling of dark-side power of Freedon Nadd still prevalent throughout Onderon.

--Star Wars insider 27

The power was noted as permeating the city and poisoning the atmosphere. cay notes it as affecting them.

Here

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

The point being here is that none of the feats Ulic accomplished here would have been at his best, so it is safe to say that Jedi Ulic>/>>Hindered jedi Ulic. We don't know exactly to what degree this increase would be by, however it would be to a notable degree. Next we have Ulic's fall to the darkside, while it is unknown whether of not this action alone increased his power it is rather typical of the way the force seems to operate.

Next we will discuss that Aleema, after giving Ulic the sith talisman, it would make Ulic more powerful then her. A statement which was prove true after the talisman was activated and he was marked my marko ragnos.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Lasts, in the years between this moment and Kuns and Ulic's campaign they gained tremendous power in the darkside.

No Caption Provided

To recap. Prime Ulic>>Sith Ulic with Talisman>>Jedi Ulic>/>> Hindered jedi Ulic.

Now, what does any of this actually mean? Well, To be honest I don't actually know. I consider Ulic to be a rather impressive combatant, and there are more arguments for him that I have neglected to put into this post. Does any of this put Ulic on even terms with someone like Dooku, for instance. That entirely depends upon your view of Dooku's own level of skill and power. Some of whom recently have taken to a very high level.

This post was not intended as a attack on either @the_wspanialy nor @decaf_wizard and they are welcome to respond, or not, to any parts of this post that I have made. This post was more intended as a way to test and see how some of these arguments actually stack up to scrutiny. Which I am sure will be provided by those whom read this. There is also a lot of arguments in here I am relatively unsure of myself. This is not a proclamation of how Ulic is more powerful then dooku/mace, this is a invitation to discuss to help me actually place Ulic if you have the interest in doing so.

A few more tags of people whom may be interested.

@nfactor1995@redheathen

Avatar image for themuser
#116 Posted by TheMuser (1882 posts) - - Show Bio

Apologies to anyone I tagged more then once.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#117 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: To elaborate on the Force Storm thing @slayedigneel is talking about: known users are Revan, Darth Nyriss, Valkorion, Darth Bane, Starkiller, and Sidious. This isn't the Force Storm (Wormhole) that only Sidious has used.

Avatar image for deactivated-5be183e26f3e9
#118 Posted by deactivated-5be183e26f3e9 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339 said:

Yo, when you refer to dark side burst are you referring to that burst of dark side energy that was released after Sidious' death?

You got a quote 4 that?

Cus if that's true, that means Vader tanked his full-power lightning and wasn't mortally wounded by it...

Yep. It's from The New Essential Chronology.

Vader grabbed the energy-seething Palpatine and hurled him into the Death Star reactor shaft, where the evil leader was disintegrated. The shock waves of dark power mortally wounded Vader. Luke Skywalker could do nothing for his dying father, the terrible enemy who had saved him in the end.

(Credit to Zapan871 for the quote.)

Avatar image for emperor339
#119 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for greysentinel365
#120 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@frankenmidget: Yeah, there's no way Revan is getting anything done with lightning now.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#121 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for greysentinel365
#122 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Please feel free to correct me on the very detailed reason Revan's lightning is more powerful than RotJ Palpatine's

Avatar image for mije_101
#123 Edited by Mije_101 (1533 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins. Qel-Droma is a peer of Windu/Dooku, and Exar Kun is above them, especially in terms of Force power.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#124 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: It isn't. But saying Revan's lightning wouldn't "get anything done" is completely false, seeing as how he insta-killed 8 people at once without any charge time whatsoever (and of course after absorbing an attack capable of destroying all life on a planet). Revan just has to get his Force Storm on Vader for like 5 seconds before lightning flows through the tubes that connect to his lungs and his burned throat, which at that point may possibly disintegrate his body.

The only people above Revan in terms of lightning (as far as we know) are Sidious, Plagueis, and Valkorion. Anakin (not extremely weakened and in a suit) couldn't handle Dooku lightning.

Avatar image for kbroskywalker
#125 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

@necromancer76: Please feel free to correct me on the very detailed reason Revan's lightning is more powerful than RotJ Palpatine's

Actually, IIRC, there was a quote strongly suggesting vader was experiencing oneness at that time(which makes sense given he was literally carrying out the force's will and bringing balance to the force).

That being said, the rotj feat is hardly necessary to debunk revan being able to wreck vader with lightning thanks to this right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFNwROFWaA

Note, vader is standing right inside the temple where the explosion occurs.

This is a kyber crystal explosion which has earlier in the season has been shown to be capable of completely disintergrating multiple freighters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFNwROFWaA

The above is well above anything revan has to show

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#126 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: That's not very impressive. Vader has tanked Starkillers rage amped lightning storm.

I remind you that Starkiller was capable of doing this casually

No Caption Provided

In fact Vader was able to recover in a split second and intercept SK's lightining despite being in the throws of it.

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawled up and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right arm strained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm.

But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.

The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong.

Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.

Force Unleashed 2 Novelization

So Vader was only momentarily stunned by a blast that blew open a metal room.

Note that this^ was before Vader installed additional insulators which made him even more resistant

So no. That example is not sufficient. Even if Revan caught Vader off guard he could recover and defend in a split second.

Next.

Avatar image for kbroskywalker
#127 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser:

Its pretty obvious in the comic that ulic had regained his connection to the force by the time he was fighting sylvar. Hence why he was able to transcend the physical plane, and hence why he was able to match the superhuman augmentaion of a notable jedi knight.

As for mace, I'd read this argument nova made(post #36 is where the arguemnt starts https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/revan-shadow-of-revan-vs-mace-windu-1780635/).

As for Dooku, multiple have put him beyond yoda's ability to outright dominate and the most recent quotes indicate he had near parity with yoda as a duelist

Off course this poses a massive problem for kun and ulic who thanks to scaling are tied to at best being sub stwor valk, someone who himself is tied to being inferior to plagueis who himself is an inferior to eotpm sids who himself is 15 years(where he was "growing in strength") of power growth away from his rots incarnations who mace can compete with and who is a virtual equal to yoda who can be compered with by dooku.

TL; DR:
Mace/Dooku can compete with folks who are well above kun or ulic's paygrade. And I think that suffecient to give team 1 the victory

Avatar image for thevivas
#128 Posted by TheVivas (19427 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 cause why not.

Avatar image for slayedigneel
#129 Edited by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker Nah, Valkorian can be argued, start of SWTOR Vitiate yes, by this fourms standards of that quote, which is pretty dodgy in itself.

Avatar image for deactivated-5be183e26f3e9
#130 Posted by deactivated-5be183e26f3e9 (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, IIRC, there was a quote strongly suggesting vader was experiencing oneness at that time(which makes sense given he was literally carrying out the force's will and bringing balance to the force).

It makes sense. But the RotJ novelization also states Vader was at his weakest while he was carrying Palpatine.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#131 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Revan tanked an attack so powerful that it can destroy all life on a planet. There is no Jedi or Sith anywhere close to that level except Plagueis tanking Sidious' lightning. Anakin surviving an explosion is infinitely weaker than Revan's feat.

Plus, Vader was limping after that explosion. Revan tanked the attack, and then fought against two strike teams, which would both beat Vader in a fight.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#132 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Starkiller was overbuffed in TFU (stated by the creators themselves). That can't even be used here.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#133 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: I could easily say the same for Revan.

Gameplay cutscenes are canon. So it flies. The novels likewise are no more overblown than any other really. I went to the trouble of tweeting Chee about this recently.

Gameplay itself is non-canon.

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/848930530888368129

Now are you going to counter or concede?

Avatar image for necromancer76
#134 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: If you want to talk game play cutscenes and only gameplay cutscenes, Revan has TK and that's it. Remember when Vader got crushed by Kanan and Ezra? I do. Meanwhile, Revan easily knocks back 7 or 8 people, some of which much were stronger than Kanan and Ezra. Oh and the tanking the Machine Core thing and teleportation is "canon" as well.

But other than that, you just deleted Revan as a character, so you can no longer debate about him. This is essentially your concession to Revan in general unless you include his game feats.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#135 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Remember when Vader got crushed by Kanan and Ezra?

Which was a confirmed surprise attack. Filoni is on record say that the Rebel characters are "like level 3's and Vader is a 50"

It was pure plot so they could escape. I'll track down the interview. Nice lowball attempt.

Edit: Found it!

“It’s tricky. I’ve said it in interviews – I don’t think our Rebels are a match for him, on any level. Our guys are like level three, maybe they got to level four this season. What’s Vader, like level 80? They’re not even rolling the same number of dice, for God’s sake. It’s not even close here. So it’s a challenge to write believable scenes, mainly from our heroes’ side, that you believe they could have any success in this next season because there are some very heavy hitters that have been brought in to deal with them.

http://screenrant.com/star-wars-rebels-season-2-darth-vader-ahsoka/
What Vader represents to me in Rebels is the ultimate manifestation of your fear, and of your inability to move forward. They are not going to be able to defeat Darth Vader. This is an immovable object. The easiest way to explain it is, our heroes are like level five characters and Vader’s level 50. [Laughs] It’s not going to take much for him to do them in.http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-rebels-part-3

So yeah Filoni pretty much admits it was plot to have them escape.

Meanwhile, Revan easily knocks back 7 or 8 people

Revan threw back 7 or 8 people?

No Caption Provided

That's cute

But other than that, you just deleted Revan as a character, so you can no longer debate about him.

That's flat not true. You tried this whining with ShootingNova and I will quote his reply

The cutscene feats (ie. his TK wave), the quotes about all the characters sensing him from across the galaxy as some type of severe cancer or impurity, being one of the most powerful Force users of the era, and I believe it's factual that the strike teams struggled to defeat him. Spirit Revan puts the dark half of Revan above any one character in any of the strike teams. Then there's him foreseeing the arrival of the protagonists, generating wind storms, sending a vision to Lord Darkspanner from across the galaxy, surviving the Machine Core, etc. And, of course, anything else that happens in a cutscene or proves to be a "story element" rather than a gameplay element.

There is also his novel feats and plenty of other accolades you could get from just a cursory look at DA's RT.

So, are you going to counter or concede?

Avatar image for slayedigneel
#136 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365 Lol, so what exactly don't you believe Revan can't do that he's done in game?

Avatar image for necromancer76
#137 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Obviously the rebels are worse than him. It's the fact that he was "surprised" so easily and it took him like 15 seconds to get the debris off of him.

Ooooh, Vader can push a bunch of featless troopers while he's at full health. A version of Revan performing at like 10% of what he could at his best pushed back Nox/Wrath/Barsen'Thor/HoT, Marr, Satale, Beniko, plus 3 other legendary non-force users. I'd say that's better than pushing back a group of fodder.

Once again, you have nothing to go off of. Let's see:

TK, people can sense him, quotes about him being powerful, Foresight, Wind Storms, sending a vision, and his durability.

Since you are drowning in your own arrogance with your Counter or Concede garbage and forgetting details, let me remind you this is SoR Revan, so book feats do not apply. Now, which of those powers that I listed above can Revan use in a fight? Oh right. 1 really. TK. If you want me to talk about the other things, sure. Revan obviously has better foresight than Vader because Vader got "surprised" by Ezra and Kanan. Point for Revan. Next, Revan can generate wind storms, which displays his raw power. Vader can't. Point for Revan. And then Revan tanked an attack capable of destroying all life on a planet, and then fought 2 strikes and was still ready to face Vitiate. Vader is infinitely weaker in durability. Point for Revan.

So, in "canon" feats only, Revan has one offensive power: TK. I haven't even mentioned his force destruction/bubble/drain/balance/whirlwind power that only he has ever used, or his other "non-canon" powers. And the other feats I listed can't even be used in a fight, but Revan is greater than Vader in those areas anyway. So basically, Revan is greater than Vader in every "canon" power that he has. Literally every single one.

"So, are you going to counter or concede?"

Avatar image for themuser
#138 Edited by TheMuser (1882 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: Um....No, it is stated by both Nomi and Vima that he could not touch the force and he had no power, being blind to the force. It is stated several times throughout the comic and quite clearly.

No Caption Provided

ill Address the Points made about Dooku and Mace after I get back home and have some time on my hands.

Off course this poses a massive problem for kun and ulic who thanks to scaling are tied to at best being sub stwor valk,

Based on?

someone who himself is tied to being inferior to plagueis

Um...Based on what? Feats? Possibly. If your referring to that blurb at the back of his novel I would merely note that would also imply Plagueis>DE Sidious, so you will forgive me if I take it with a pinch of salt.

who himself is an inferior to eotpm sids who himself is 15 years(where he was "growing in strength") of power growth away from his rots incarnations

Correct.

who mace can compete with

Via Vaapad? Assuming we are discussing legends material which in the context of Ulic V Kun we are. Is suddenly Vaapad not a thing anymore?

and who is a virtual equal to yoda

Mace=Yoda? Look, I know iv'e been on break from the forums for a while but seriously what did I miss?

who can be compered with by dooku.

Could you do me the favor of finding and allowing me to look at these quotes in greater detail? It would be much appreciated.

Avatar image for lordwhis2
#139 Posted by LordWhis2 (637 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1, Mace is on another level compared to the other 3.

Also for some reason I detected some Maul low balling in this thread, Maul is stronger than everyone here except Mace, he was flat out stated to be stronger than Dooku, competed 1v1 against Sideous & actually TKed him & slammed him against a wall. Furthermore, at vastly below prime levels he beat Qui Gon & a Vader that had just been shut down by Kenobi & was new to his suit. Heck, it could be argued he stomped both. Yes, he did lose to Kanan, but that has got to be the most insane instance of PIS short of Iceman beating oblivion in all of fiction, it makes the gap between kaguya & sakura look puny.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#140 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

Ooooh, Vader can push a bunch of featless troopers while he's at full health. A version of Revan performing at like 10% of what he could at his best pushed back Nox/Wrath/Barsen'Thor/HoT, Marr, Satale, Beniko, plus 3 other legendary non-force users. I'd say that's better than pushing back a group of fodder.

Nice arbitrary percentage. Vader dominating the likes of Starkiller, Jax Pavan and being canonically far above the likes of Kibh Jeen, who can devastate cities by throwing lightning from the sky.

After his servants sabotage a local power plant, he unleashes his anger on the floating cities of Genarius. Lighting arcs through the clouds, destroying hundreds of homes as his followers scream through the streets, blasters white-hot. Thousands die.

Living Force Campaign Guide

Is more than enough to match that.

Revan obviously has better foresight than Vader because Vader got "surprised" by Ezra and Kanan.

By an outside party setting off an explosion. Also Filoni has pretty much admitted that was plot convenience for them to get away.

Next, Revan can generate wind storms, which displays his raw power. Vader can't.

Vader doesn't use weather manipulation. But as stated above he is canonically above people who do and have done it with more power.

This would include Gethzerion who generated storms of orange lightning simply by being mad

Outside, through the open portals, Han could see fierce storm clouds in the distance, flashing lightning. The stars here burned fiercely above the tree-covered mountains. Around him, the witches laughed and taught their daughters spells in the shadows. The young girls wore shirts and pants of simple hides, not the elaborate costumes of the fully trained witches. Yet the witches seemed more casual, more cozy around their children. They removed their headdresses and let their hair down. Without their full attire, they weren't so intimidating, and reminded Han only of rugged peasants. The witches' husbands worked silently, dressed in tunics of woven plant fibers, serving meals to the women so quietly that Han almost felt as if they must be communicating telepathically.
Augwynne sat nearby so that she could speak softly to Han and Leia. She noticed how Han frequently eyed the distant storm. "Do not worry yourself," she said. "That is only Gethzerion, thrashing in impotent fury. But she is too far away. There will be no Force storm tonight."
"Gethzerion is making that lightning?" Threepio asked, his eyes suddenly bright. "Why, I wonder how much power output she can produce."
Augwynne looked at the distant clouds, unconcerned, and a brilliant branch of orange lightning with many tongues arced up into the sky, as if expressly for her to see. "Oh, she's very powerful, and very angry. But for tonight, she will not come."

Courtship of Princess Leia

So that's not enough for Revan to gain a clear edge.

And then Revan tanked an attack capable of destroying all life on a planet, and then fought 2 strikes and was still ready to face Vitiate. Vader is infinitely weaker in durability.

You keep saying this but I have no idea what you are referring to.

I haven't even mentioned his force destruction/bubble/drain/balance/whirlwind power that only he has ever used, or his other "non-canon" powers.

Destruction is a TK power, as is bubble. Vader became immune to planetary level drain as a Jedi and would have maintained that knowledge, whirlwind is likewise TK and Vader can just root himself with immovability.

Go ahead and mention them. They won't do much.

Revan is greater than Vader in every "canon" power that he has. Literally every single one.

Nope. I'm open to the idea. But you haven't come close to showing it.

Although congrats on countering instead of dodging.

Avatar image for penguinlover
#141 Edited by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

@greysentinel365: Agreed with everything you've said here.

Ooooh, Vader can push a bunch of featless troopers while he's at full health. A version of Revan performing at like 10% of what he could at his best pushed back Nox/Wrath/Barsen'Thor/HoT, Marr, Satale, Beniko, plus 3 other legendary non-force users. I'd say that's better than pushing back a group of fodder.

@necromancer76: Where on earth did you get that percentage from? Played the expansion, understand the story and everything but I have never heard that mentioned. If you're going to reference him being split in two, every quote about that refers to spirit Revan as having the wisdom that Revan Reborn lacks, while he has the strength that spirit Revan lacks. Moreover, when he pushed back those Force users that only occurred in the Imperial version, and even then no one, not even the non - Force sensitives such as Shae Viszla and Jakarro, were injured and got back up immediately afterwards.

Avatar image for bigsambino87
#142 Edited by bigsambino87 (1754 posts) - - Show Bio

This fight all depends on how powerful we really think Exar Kun is. We know that he was absolutely legendary among the Sith, but was he truly in that "Top Tier" category, along with Sidious, Vitiate, Nihilus, Plagueis, etc.?

I've seen rankings of him being Sidious level, all the way down to him basically equal with Maul.

IF he is Top Tier, then his team wins, unless Dooku can quickly put away Qel-Droma and aid Windu in defeating him.

If he is NOT Top Tier, then Windu and Dooku win almost every time.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#143 Edited by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365:

Glad you conceded to some of my points because you didn't respond to them. We're getting somewhere.

Let me remind you Vader LOST to Starkiller. I wouldn't call that dominating. And those are just people he's greater than (in a 1v1 as well). You didn't even address TK or the fact that Revan was extremely weakened and fought all of those people at the same time. I bet Vader couldn't take Nox, Wrath, Barsen'Thor, and HoT at full health. And all of the PIS stuff about letting Ezra and Kanan escape? Revan had it 3 times in a row: He lost to Vitiate so TOR happens, and then he lost on the Foundry and on Yavin the game progresses to KOTFE. So PIS doesn't apply.

An explosion makes him lose focus. That's pathetic. Revan is able to simultaneously wield two lightsabers via TK, control Force Aberrations, and crush pillars via TK, all while fighting a huge strike team--while he's extremely weakened.

The fact of the matter is that Vader can't create earthquakes, storms, and high winds. An extremely weakened Revan can.

I'm talking about him absorbing the energies of the Machine Core because his ritual was interrupted by the strike team.

Let me ask you this: if Darth Nox/Emperor's Wrath/Barsen'Thor/HoT, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, and Lana Beniko all combined their force power into one TK blast, and Vader also made a TK blast, who's blast would be more powerful? (This is a rhetorical question. If you answer it incorrectly, then you're just being irrational). Oh yes and then he would have to tank the Machine Core, which he can't.

I could mention teleportation. Vader is slow compared to most high level Sith. If Vader somehow magically gets a chance to harm Revan, he'll just teleport away or form one of his nigh indestructible force bubbles.

I've literally proven he is. I countered all of your points. You're just being stubborn.

Also, thanks for dodging some of my points. It makes my job easier.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#144 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: I made that percentage up. We know he is a fraction of what he is at full power because of the Machine Core, I'm just trying to show how bad SoR Revan is compared to a Prime Revan. Prime Revan would almost easily (almost) beat the likes of Caedus.

And yeah, most TK blasts don't do damage. If you want his TK damage though, there's the part when Revan broke through everyone's force barriers, cut them off from the force, and then began to drain them.

Avatar image for corruptgalactic
#145 Posted by corruptgalactic (4 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76

Jinn sent Kenobi off to his AgriCorps duties while he planned to meet with Xanatos, not as old adversaries, but as ambassadors, working to find an agreement between Offworld and Bandomeer. Xanatos, however, planned all along to sabotage their meeting and kill Jinn. With the help of Kenobi, Jinn once more attempted to end Xanatos' acts of terror. Jinn dueled with his former apprentice, and though they ended Offworld's business on Bandomeer, Xanatos was able to escape. During their altercation with Xanatos, Jinn discovered Kenobi's true potential, and took him as his new Padawan learner. Their relationship got off to a bad start, as the pair's personalities were constantly at odds; Jinn was headstrong, while Kenobi was more practical. As time went on, however, their opposing natures blended them into an effective duo

Avatar image for corruptgalactic
#146 Posted by corruptgalactic (4 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365 The Sith focused on anger, fear, and pain to gain power from the dark side of the Force. They followed a code that encouraged the strong to destroy the weak, and insisted on the importance of struggling and striving. The relationship between a Sith Master and their apprentice was not one of trust. Indeed, both the master and the apprentice constantly searched for any sign of weakness in the other, for a weak master deserved to be overthrown by their pupil, just as a weak pupil deserved to be replaced by a worthier, more powerful recruit. This harsh philosophy allowed the Sith to remain as strong as possible

Avatar image for greysentinel365
#147 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6164 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76:

I'll respond in the morning

Glad you conceded to some of my points because you didn't respond to them. We're getting somewhere.

I concede nothing. Pray tell which points were these? Because I didn't see any others.

Avatar image for themuser
#148 Posted by TheMuser (1882 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigsambino87: Well, considering the line of scaling I just gave for Ulic and all of that and then a lot more can be applied to Kun, I'd say he is pretty good....

Avatar image for penguinlover
#149 Posted by PenguinLover (994 posts) - - Show Bio

@penguinlover: I made that percentage up. We know he is a fraction of what he is at full power because of the Machine Core, I'm just trying to show how bad SoR Revan is compared to a Prime Revan. Prime Revan would almost easily (almost) beat the likes of Caedus.

And yeah, most TK blasts don't do damage. If you want his TK damage though, there's the part when Revan broke through everyone's force barriers, cut them off from the force, and then began to drain them.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on. You think that prime Revan is a peer to Darth Caedus? Based on what?

This is exactly why I hate it when gameplay mechanics are used as legitimate feats. Based on that feat, Cipher Nine is more powerful than Lana, Satele and Marr as he/she wasn't restrained and held against a wall. This is as much a low showing as it is a high showing if Revan Reborn was incapable of holding a non Force-sensitive being against a wall.

Avatar image for necromancer76
#150 Posted by Necromancer76 (3775 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Ohhhhh, the one about TK, how it took him like 15 seconds to lift debris (an extra extremely weakened Revan held a large group of meteors in the air while he's fighting a strike team and using other force abilites), when you told me Vader is greater than some dudes but didn't address how Revan fought those strikes teams all at once, etc.

As I said, only someone stubborn won't concede when he/she knows he/she is wrong.