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#1 Edited by deactivated-5a20a68641bc7 (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1: Mace Windu & Count Dooku (ROTS & previous Legends feats)

Team 2: Exar Kun & Ulic Qel-Droma (Tales of the Jedi prime)

Mace Windu and Count Dooku set aside their antagonism to confront the formidable alliance of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. Which team wins?

  • They start at a 20m distance in the pictured hangar on Geonosis.
  • They fight in character but team loyalty remains intact.
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#2 Edited by Chubbs (905 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe Windu and Dooku would be able to win comfortably

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#3 Posted by AmethystGravity (2314 posts) - - Show Bio

Windu and Dooku are more skilled, in my opinion, and wield comparable power in the force. They probably win.

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#4 Edited by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 stomps. Windu and Dooku can contend with the likes of Yoda and Palpatine, whereas Kun and Qel-Droma would get annihilated by them.

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#5 Posted by the_wspanialy (4006 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. Qel Droma is a weak link. Either Mace or Dooku beats him soundly, and then they team up against Kun.

Now I'll wait for inevitable Qel Droma wank.

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#6 Posted by decaf_wizard (16933 posts) - - Show Bio

Kun is the strongest here, but Qel Droma is holding him back and would lose to either Mace or Dooku. Team one should take a majority because of this

Team 1. Qel Droma is a weak link. Either Mace or Dooku beats him soundly, and then they team up against Kun.

Now I'll wait for inevitable Qel Droma wank.

Actually I'm going to be waiting for the Kun lowballing and watch people try to say that either of team one can stomp him in sabers and match him in the force

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#7 Posted by Dispray (67 posts) - - Show Bio

Sith solidly.

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#8 Posted by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio

Kun is the strongest here, but Qel Droma is holding him back and would lose to either Mace or Dooku. Team one should take a majority because of this

@the_wspanialy said:

Team 1. Qel Droma is a weak link. Either Mace or Dooku beats him soundly, and then they team up against Kun.

Now I'll wait for inevitable Qel Droma wank.

Actually I'm going to be waiting for the Kun lowballing and watch people try to say that either of team one can stomp him in sabers and match him in the force

Calling Qel Droma a "Weak Link" or as as someone whom will be holding kun back I find rather interesting. In what area's does Ulic Lack in particular? Also you did say that the Qel Droma Hype was inevitable....So I might as well fulfill that prophesy.

I am currently in a bit of a awkward position with Ulic. You see I am currently sitting on a rather large amounts of arguments in favor of the fellow with a rather vast amount of information that I was entirely unaware of before a fascinating but short lived CaV. However, as time has gone on and the need to defend the character tooth and nail has disappeared I am wanting to take a more objective view of his abilities. I honestly don't know where to place him, this has brought me to a bit of a conundrum.

So, If you would all be so kind and have the available time and desire to enter such a conversation. Explain to me why Ulic is so far beneath these masters of the force.

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#9 Posted by decaf_wizard (16933 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser:

I am wanting to take a more objective view of his abilities. I honestly don't know where to place him, this has brought me to a bit of a conundrum.

Ulic's pretty impressive tbh. Almost

Vodo Siask Bass level

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#12 Edited by decaf_wizard (16933 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser said:

@decaf_wizard: Either of you whom are interested.

Well ok.

I think that Mace and Dooku's high end feats simply outclass Ulics. Its not to say that he is weak per-say but he just isn't on their level. I would place Kun above them but Ulic isn't on his level by feats

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#13 Posted by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard:

I think that Mace and Dooku's high end feats simply outclass Ulics. Its not to say that he is weak per-say but he just isn't on their level. I would place Kun above them but Ulic isn't on his level by feats

An example if you please? which feats outclass Ulic?

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#15 Posted by decaf_wizard (16933 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser said:

@decaf_wizard:

I think that Mace and Dooku's high end feats simply outclass Ulics. Its not to say that he is weak per-say but he just isn't on their level. I would place Kun above them but Ulic isn't on his level by feats

An example if you please? which feats outclass Ulic?

Holds his own with multiple force powerhouses level beings (Talzin, Car Vastor) and Sids himself. Matches General Grievous and Dooku in duelling, beats multiple Jedi who were consumed by Vaapad which is a rather large amp. Battles Sids in a fight that appeared as only a blur to Anakin, has a fighting style which amps himself off Dark Side enemies. Can force push AT-TE's with ease, damaged Greivous with the force who can tank blasts that compromise the crust of a planet.

I could continue

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#16 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 honestly.

Ulic is definitely the weakest here, but he should be able to hold either opponent long enough for Exar to finish up with Dooku or Mace.

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#17 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

You're just pissed that malachor scaling will forever doom ulic to being fodder to true force users like vader

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#18 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 honestly.

Ulic is definitely the weakest here, but he should be able to hold either opponent long enough for Exar to finish up with Dooku or Mace.

You don't buy the whole mace competing with sids thing as legit?

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#19 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

No. Even with the Vapaad amp gone in canon, I'm still of the view that the ordeal for the most part was a ploy by sids.

Edit: I'm sure Muser will be suprised to see me back ulic and exar.

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#20 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

Btw, a point about Ulic.

The best argument for Ulic's raw power IMO isn't his rivalry with Exar, as a definite disparity grew between them during their career as Sith Lords.

It's that the one who said Ulic would be one of the strongest Sith Lords ever was Marka (iirc) and from his perspective he would be comparing Ulic to the greatest ancient Sith Lords, which would exclude him being lumped in with the likes of Malgus and Malak for the 'most powerful sith lords' quote.

Of course, Ulic never reached his full potential, but considering how much Exar drastically grew over the war and their rivalry, it should suggest that Ulic was building up to that level.

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#21 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

IN legends,The argument(which I have to admit I agree with) is that the vapaad amp wasn't a one time thing but rather a result of his a massive confrontation emotionally(the betrayal of the republic and everything) leading to permanent growth(as we know emotional challenges help force users grow).

In canon there's not really anything to debate here. Sids throwing the fight doesn't at all mean mace can;t compete with sids which per george lucas's own statement he clearly can. Sids can throw the fight vs mace without being beyond mace's ability to compete.

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#22 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Canon does certainly shed a brighter light on Mace with a lot of the circumstances of the Sidious fight removed.

Also, I don't think Lucas has any say over Disney Canon nor EU. He's openly admitted that 'his' universe ignores EU and he certainly doesn't have any say over canon (an example being that Old Ben and Vader appear to have gotten stronger in Canon, wheras they were shells of their former selves in Lucas' vision).

Whilst true that EU writers were prompted to try and stay consistant with Lucas' vision, that simply wasn't the case in a lot of places.

---

Regarding Legends, I personally don't subscribe to the Vapaad amp being permanent since this is an isolated case compared to the majority of his showings and he dies immidiatly after.
It's a hard sell to say he'd still have it had he survived. Also, whilst he may have grown during the fight, it's also true that when people go through emotional trials, whilst they may grow stronger, they don't stay as strong as they were when amped. Instead it's more like a glimpse of their potential that they take a step closer too.

Much like TPM Kenobi fighting evenly with Maul (and even gaining the upper hand at one point), ROTJ Luke beating down on Vader or Anakin at the Tusken camp.
They all went through growth after the fact, but they weren't immediatly as strong as they were at the time of the amp.

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#23 Posted by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: I will admit I am a bit surprised by your choice in this match up.

Well....Considering I am about to drop a book in my next post (Honestly, a large portion of my blog as well) and yell to the thread, "Come at me bro." I will appreciate not having to deal with you going after Ulic as much as I am expecting others to.

@decaf_wizard My next post will be somewhat lengthy and note much of it is not directed at you specifically, i'm not trying to hate on Mace or Dooku and it is certainly not a mass attack on you. I am merely trying to see which of these Ulic arguments hold water.

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#24 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:Yeah....Still a bit salty all of the scaling I have been working on went to crap in the debate due to someone literally writing a book. Consolation prize, having scaling and having not clue how impressive it is......

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#26 Posted by decaf_wizard (16933 posts) - - Show Bio

Btw, a point about Ulic.

The best argument for Ulic's raw power IMO isn't his rivalry with Exar, as a definite disparity grew between them during their career as Sith Lords.

It's that the one who said Ulic would be one of the strongest Sith Lords ever was Marka (iirc) and from his perspective he would be comparing Ulic to the greatest ancient Sith Lords, which would exclude him being lumped in with the likes of Malgus and Malak for the 'most powerful sith lords' quote.

Of course, Ulic never reached his full potential, but considering how much Exar drastically grew over the war and their rivalry, it should suggest that Ulic was building up to that level.

We didn't exactly get to see much of that though. Ulic was stripped of his power after killing his brother and removing virtually all potential he once had before he really did anything on a high end level. Its all speculation

Cool thing about Ulic though, he was so skilled with a lightsaber he was able to hold off a Jedi while holding back even after being stripped of force powers

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#27 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser:

Maybe I should actually write a book.

I'd probably end up like tolkein where he takes like 3 pages just to describe a flipping hillside.

---

@decaf_wizard:

That's true. It's all just talk of potential, not his actual peak.

But it's certainly not all hot air either. It certainly indicates the level of growth he would undergo. Since we don't really know how strong he was.

Saying 'he was one of the most powerful of sith lords' at best proves he's in Malak's tier. But Ragnos claiming he'd one day be up there with the best of the ancients is telling of how strong he would have become, especially when it's implied that despite the ever growing gap between him and Exar, he too had grown immensly.

Unfortunately for Prime Ulic, the best thing we can do is try and scale/speculate.

IMO, he's around Maul level as a combatant.

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#28 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser:

Honestly the best thing that came out of that debate is that I've gotten a lot more knowledge on these four characters from my extensive research and even uncovered a new feat for Ventress.

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#29 Edited by TheMuser (1887 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: Same, just basically learned the entire ToTJ era, and found new stuff.

EDIT: Also yes, You should definitely write a book.

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#30 Edited by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

1. Talking canon, as the saga is still the central part of disney cnaon and the eu is wholly based and sprouted from the saga, the word of the dude responsible behind the saga absolutely holds weight. And if its uncontradicted(which in canon it definitely is) then there's no reason not to take it. Mace being<sidious doens't at all mean he can't compete with him

Regarding Legends, I personally don't subscribe to the Vapaad amp being permanent since this is an isolated case compared to the majority of his showings and he dies immidiatly after.

Mace getting permanent growth from an emotional confrontation isn't at all an isolated case. Shatterpoint comes to mind. And him dying right after doesn't really prove anything.

It's a hard sell to say he'd still have it had he survived. Also, whilst he may have grown during the fight, it's also true that when people go through emotional trials, whilst they may grow stronger, they don't stay as strong as they were when amped. Instead it's more like a glimpse of their potential that they take a step closer too.

Much like TPM Kenobi fighting evenly with Maul (and even gaining the upper hand at one point), ROTJ Luke beating down on Vader or Anakin at the Tusken camp.

They all went through growth after the fact, but they weren't immediatly as strong as they were at the time of the amp.

1. You're assuming there's an external amp here rather than a permanent internal emotional based boost even though vapaad draws from his own darkness.

2. Those examples aren't remotely the same. Someone being rage amped(and thus as a lightsider failing to overcome or deal with a mental confrontation) isn't at all the same as what happened with mace. Mace wasn't rage amped and he didn't lose control. He confronted the emotional realization and maintained control. The event to led to his boost is actually the opposite of what happened with the rage induced boosts you're using.

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#31 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Mace getting permanent growth from an emotional confrontation isn't at all an isolated case.

I never stated that. I stated he likely grew, just not as much as you're insinuating.

1. You're assuming there's an external amp here rather than a permanent internal emotional based boost even though vapaad draws from his own darkness.

No I'm not. I've no idea where you're getting this from.

I'm comparing him to others who have had internal/emotional boosts that come from within, and the state they're left in post the isolated cases lends itself more to my hypothesis than yours.

2. Those examples aren't remotely the same. Someone being rage amped(and thus as a lightsider failing to overcome or deal with a mental confrontation) isn't at all the same as what happened with mace. Mace wasn't rage amped and he didn't lose control. He confronted the emotional realization and maintained control. The event to led to his boost is actually the opposite of what happened with the rage induced boosts you're using.

That's some nice hyperbole you got there. Care to explain how it proves the hypothesis that his growth should be taken such that his state in his confrontation with Sidious be considered his base level?

Citing that 'a vapaad amp ain't the same as a rage amp' as reason enough to believe that he would maintain that increase in power rather than have it be temporary and specific to that isolated situation isn't gonna cut it.

And him dying right after doesn't really prove anything.

Exactly. Because he died, we don't know if he actually would have maintained that state permanently.

Considering that in pretty much every other case where someone has been amped to a point where they perform far above their normal standard, it is normally isolated and they don't maintain that level of power beyond the fight, I simply find it highly likely that the same can be said of Mace.

----

Anyways m8, I'd love to stay and chat, but I'm currently up at almost 4 in the morning writing up a university assignment for hand in, so I'll have to leave it here.

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#32 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

I never stated that. I stated he likely grew, just not as much as you're insinuating.

Mace did grow to that extent hence why he performed at that level(being able to compete with sids). The question is if the growth was temporary or permanent? And given what led to the growth, coming to terms and persevering through something(which in legends has been stated multiple times to lead to permanent growth) rather than a rage amp(which we know is temporary) I'd say it was permanent.

No I'm not. I've no idea where you're getting this from.

I'm comparing him to others who have had internal/emotional boosts that come from within, and the state they're left in post the isolated cases lends itself more to my hypothesis than yours.

Yea, you're comparing fundementally different types of boosts. TPM Kenobi was boosted by rage, Luke rage, Anakin rage, that doesn't have any bearing on what mace's non rage induced amp would do.

That's some nice hyperbole you got there. Care to explain how it proves the hypothesis that his growth should be taken such that his state in his confrontation with Sidious be considered his base level?

A. We have statements from authority saying rots mace can compete with sids

B. We know that emotional challenges being overcome leads to permanent growth:

"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Visas has come to terms with the death of her world and calmed the hatred within herself. This has given her a stronger connection to the Force, and a bonus to her Force points.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

C. Mace faced a massive confrontation finding out and letting go of his one attachment which he fully dedicated himself to his entire life(the republic) is in control of his mortal enemy

D. Vapaad is internally based rather than externally based

Considering that in pretty much every other case where someone has been amped to a point where they perform far above their normal standard, it is normally isolated and they don't maintain that level of power beyond the fight, I simply find it highly likely that the same can be said of Mace.

I think this is a misconception here. Mace being able to compete with sidious doesn't at all have to be far above his normal standard. The often used statements that sids moved faster than mace realized or could react are obvious hyperbole as mace actually did successfully react to sids strikes.

Additionally we have lucas's word that mace can compete with sids and Gillard's word is up there that he with sids/yoda/anakin. To top that off we know mace is an 8 bordering 9 as of rots and we've seen that even an eight like dooku can compete with a 9 like yoda. Mace can compete with sids

And off course rarely do characters face emotional confrontations of the extent mace faced Furthermore the source of growth here, mace's realization of a truth is fndementally different from the typical boosts we see(like tpm kenobi's)

Anyway @shootingnova argues this way better than me here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/revan-shadow-of-revan-vs-mace-windu-1780635/?page=1

start at #38

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#33 Posted by jt_gh (1148 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 can win this, the 'stomp' notions for team one hold no water.

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#34 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Eh, I dunno if I'd say Dooku can compete with Yoda.

He can keep up with him/hold out, but not much more.

Competing implies that he rivals him, which I don't think is true of Mac/Sids or Dooku/Yoda.

Sure they can keep up, but they aren't on par.

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#35 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

Well regardless Mace as of ROTS can compete with sids per Lucas/Gillard

And IMO, thats sufficient for mace to stomp relative scrubs like kun/ulic

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#36 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Kun, who Grandmaster Luke Skywalker at the time deemed as one of the two most powerful threats he'd ever faced (including Sidious. Which of course would take into account Vader, Lumiya and Sedriss) is a relative scrub to someone who can hold up against ROTS Sid?

He's getting stomped (i.e Mace required no effort/exertion to defeat him)?

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#37 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Kun, who Grandmaster Luke Skywalker at the time deemed as one of the two most powerful threats he'd ever faced is a relative scrub to someone who can hold up against ROTS Sid?

He's getting stomped (i.e Mace required no effort/exertion to defeat him)?

I'd read this:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/luke-skywalker-vs-exar-kun-context-and-circumstanc/130541/

Short Summary

A. It wasn't Kun, it was Kyp, Kun simply amped Kyp, but it was actually Kyp's power that was being used

B. Massive external amps were boosting how much kun amped kyp

C. Luke was emotionally hindered

D. When it was just kun, Luke clearly showed he was more powerful

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#38 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339: I thought you said you had to go and write a university paper?, the hell you still doing here bud!

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#39 Edited by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

I thought you said you had to go and write a university paper?, the hell you still doing here bud!

You keep dragging me back!

Also not a paper. Just gotta write about the work I've done this past term.

---

Also, I understand the circumstances very well, I read that thread.

But by all means, Luke is obviously talking about Kun's power, not the threat he posed under those circumstances.

Unless I'm misremembering and Luke was regarding the threats he has faced rather than most powerful threats.

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#40 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339 said:

@kbroskywalker:

No. Even with the Vapaad amp gone in canon, I'm still of the view that the ordeal for the most part was a ploy by sids.

Edit: I'm sure Muser will be suprised to see me back ulic and exar.

Sorry to steer away from the OP, but ...Why are people even questioning this anymore?

BTW, where in canon do we learn that Vaapad amp is gone, and what's this about Malachor? Thanks for any help.

Sids throwing the fight doesn't at all mean mace can;t compete with sids which per george lucas's own statement he clearly can.

I keep hearing about Lucas saying this, but no one has yet provided the original source. Cay you do that @kbroskywalker?

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#41 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

It's simply that the whole Vaapad storyline from legends doesn't exist in canon and the novelization that suggests that Mace was amped is no longer canon.

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#42 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339 said:

@kbroskywalker:

No. Even with the Vapaad amp gone in canon, I'm still of the view that the ordeal for the most part was a ploy by sids.

Edit: I'm sure Muser will be suprised to see me back ulic and exar.

Sorry to steer away from the OP, but ...Why are people even questioning this anymore?

BTW, where in canon do we learn that Vaapad amp is gone, and what's this about Malachor? Thanks for any help.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/revan-shadow-of-revan-vs-mace-windu-1780635/?page=1

starts at POST #38

The argument isn't mace= or mace>sids which is canonically false, but he can compete with him.

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#43 Edited by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

Sids throwing the fight doesn't at all mean mace can;t compete with sids which per george lucas's own statement he clearly can.

I keep hearing about Lucas saying this, but no one has yet provided the original source. Can you do that @kbroskywalker?

And thanks for the link.

If the original source can't be confirmed, then can we add in what Gillard said? Mace is tiered below Sidious?

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#44 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Right, you're going to have to elaborate for me.

What do you specifically mean by compete.

Because afaik, compete implies rivalry or at least a level of parity.

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#45 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

And why don't either of you consider Legends anymore? This is an EU OP, so why is only canon considered for Windu and Dooku?

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#46 Posted by Emperor339 (2488 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by kbroskywalker (13408 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperor339:

it means he can challenge sids, even if he can't beat him, and that sids can't just stomp him

And why don't either of you consider Legends anymore? This is an EU OP, so why is only canon considered for Windu and Dooku?

I'm not only considering canon. But the movies are the central part of the eu so lucas's word still matters(I'm looking for the quote)

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#48 Posted by RedHeathen (2241 posts) - - Show Bio

@redheathen:

I am considering Legends.

Apologies, then. I just reread, and see how I mixed it up. You guys are just talking about canon.

If this is the case, then I do think that Gillard's statement that Mace is below Sidious is valid and doesnt' necessarily conflict with what Lucas supposedly said. He may be able to hold his own for a bit, but he won't really be any real competition. He is not an equal in the sense that he is not on the same level to be a rival.

Mace competed with Sidious in a duel. To compete just means you are fighting with one another. There is no indication that he is an equal, and Lucas did approve Gillard's work, so.... I think we need Lucas' exact wording and the context in which he said this quote, whatever this quote actually is.

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#49 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

Exar and Ulic.

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#50 Edited by the_wspanialy (4006 posts) - - Show Bio

@themuser: I'm not exactly sure what to tell you mate.

Ulic's saber capabilities (and Kun's as a matter of fact) tend to be blown out of proportion. His best saber feats are most likely stalemating Kun who at the time was:

  • pre-prime
  • without his signature weapon
  • without many saber feats himself

and holding his own against Sylvar. In all honesty though, Ulic wasn't really contending with her, all he could do was defending himself while Sylvar was constantly pushing him back. He wasn't trading blows with her, he didn't try to retaliate. He was simply defending himself and hoping for Sylvar getting a grip on herself.

Regarding Kun, the only decent saber feat we have on him prior to his fight with Ulic is beating Baas in sparing match. Yet again people are forgeting that he was able to do it only after picking up additional weapon (and while he was propably rage amped). Even in their duel in the Senate Hall, after receiving significant boost in power, Kun was only able to fight Baas to a stalemate (before activating his saberstaff).

I don't think I really need to bringing up Mace's or Dooku's feats to prove that either of them is better duelist than Ulic (@decaf_wizard have already done it anyway). Honestly if not for Kun's weapon, I wouldn't hesitate to say that eihter of them is better than Kun himself.

Ulic lacks feats to back-up his hype as Kun's rival/peer/whatever as a Force-wielder. And the fact is, without feats to back-up his hype, scalling can go only so far before becoming baseless assumptions.

Fortunately, Ulic's wank doesn't reach as ridiculous levels as Tenebrous's.